Dreamweaving Concerns

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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Rolsand said:
    I believe Xenthos is right your Dreambody is just a puppet it won't harm you main body.
    Not quite.  If you kill the dreambody, the person does actually die.  The problem is that the dreambody can only be affected by a very limited number of things, so the risk to it is far less than anything else.  As long as the risk is significantly lower, so too will the reward be.
    image
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Fralunah, you can't be moved out of Prime Serenwilde. You can be moved more than one room at a time by Empress or Summon. You can't be moved more than one room at a time by chaindrag. I'm not sure why you think you should be 100% safe while you attack people.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • edited June 2016
    The main goal of stopping you is kill you main body. If your chilling at your nexus or whatever I doubt anything bad will happen to you.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    edited June 2016
    Fralunah said:
    Dreamjack would be good and fun, if done better. Not having it work, or work whenever it wants to, is annoying af. Obviously you need to sleep a person and even then they resist it, even though they've attacked me first or you're in their territory.
    There's a long, long explanation of why dreamjack was made the way it is and agreed upon by the envoys, but the short version is that it's not going to change. I'm sorry it's "annoying af." Have you considered shamanism? 

    It is going to change, but is not going to be easier or more viable as a result of that chng
    Fralunah said:
    Xenthos. I was in an enemy territory when both Malarious and Synkarin have killed me (My dreambody anyway.) Do you not understand this? You continue to raise useless points and at this time I feel like just ignoring you. I do face risk going in dreambody, I'm still in enemy territories, and anyone can murder and attack me anyway. 

    You once again, miss the point completely. I've said multiple times, either buff dreamweaving, or change it's purpose. You have multiple times, not paid any attention to this. As far as I'm aware dreamjacking and sleep immunites will remain even when dreamweaving is changed, so this discussion is still relevant, unlike your time wasting comments. I cannot summon guards and dictionaries (Which I don't know about and don't care about.) so this means nothing to me. Serenwilde is unwilling to do fuck all about the guard placement (Or Ryboi is, doesn't really matter.) 

    You complain about there being no risk for me, but ask that there be no risk for you either? Please. 

    There isn't any functional risk. Any death from attacks on your dreambody can be accounted entirely to user error. There is only one form of hindering someone (who isn't also a dreamweaver) can do against a dreambody, which is the movement slowing via eye sigils. This can make it easier to 'track' a running dreambody by luck or intuition, but you can instantly slip or bodysnap to return to your body and safety, making it trivial to escape dying as a dreamweaver - especially if you are using absinthe to inflate your health totals.  There is a slight risk of your body being killed, but there are precautions you can take that minimize this risk to almost none. Things like going to sleep on a guard stack, with a monolith dropped in that room. In that case, the only real historic risk was from crotamine darts instakilling you - but that can't happen anymore.  


    I said it before and will say it again: The purpose of dreambody is not to gank people or even to spy on people. So, the purpose HAS been 'changed' away from ganking, because that was never its purpose.   The purpose is to give people with no/poor curing systems a window to participate in group combat alongside their allies, with minor supportive abilities and mitigated risk. The fact that a dreambody cannot kill a target who is even slightly aware of their surroundings is known, intentional, and going to continue to be the case for the foreseeable future. I couldn't think of a good limit to dreambodies to make them less of a nuisance that wouldn't decimate the other, good and intentional features of dreambodies, but if a reasonable potential limit becomes evident, I'll support the report. 

    We aren't likely to change our guard placement, but there is a sufficient clump to ward off single assailants or small groups of attackers at the Moonhart Mother Tree. For the most part, those guards are left there out of a sense of tradition and popular demand for influencing, not much else. If you want to suggest a different setup, you are welcome to - just be aware that it's well trod ground and there is a solid body of thought backing the existing setup. 
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Oh, and Cyndarin can LOS attack you even if you're at the Moonhart.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    edited June 2016
    Right, but that's not really a risk. You can see your health totals going down and pop into Nirvana, becoming immune to her attacks. The crotamine technique was useful because it gives no symptoms to the dreambody, while damage attacks can be detected by dropping health totals. 

    Not to mention that there is usually one person standing at the Moonhart, who can and should salt you if you're getting LoS attacked a few times. Not even Cyndarin's staff point should be one hit killing Fralunah, especially not if she's using absinthe. 
  • NO, Get it right. YOU are the one asking for there to be more risk for dreamweavers, and none for those killing them. You raise the same points and each time I manage to give you a different argument for each point. Dreamweaving is not at all balanced as the main function, and the concept of dreamweaving, IS NOT A VIABLE WAY OF ACHIEVING ANYTHING AT ALL.

    Why is it called dreamweaving? You may as well call it Phaseweaving if you're trying to say no one should be put to sleep. Dreamweaving is not balanced at all, which is why I have 19 deaths and only 3 kills. Or maybe, it's because I'm not a massive prick and don't exploit lowbies that can't defend themselves, which is what you constantly accuse me of with no evidence. Yes, not all of my deaths are related to dreamweaving, and yes, not all of them are due to dreamweaving being unbalanced. 

    But don't you DARE suggest that it is because I am unskilled or don't have experience. I know that there are times when I should have left earlier, shouldn't have risked as much, and I know that I wouldn't have died as much if I'd done so. The past is the past and nothing can change that. I don't care about those deaths. But you, you insist that Dreamweave slip makes everything perfectly fine. Dreamweave slip, leaves a body behind still, and is full of monsters that afflict you and deal a ton of damage and sit in groups in rooms. You can't instantly dreamslip out, and auto sipping doesn't happen. SO can you stop raising the same worthless points over and over with no meaning? I swear if you reply to this with the tiniest bit of crap I will ignore you and not listen to any of your opinions at all, Ever. I will do my best to make sure that anything you propose will fail because I know that something proposed by something as ignorant as yourself will surely only be for your own selfishness and not in any way to make the world of Lusternia better. 

    Balance is NOT being able to win because you have what has essentially become a passive in Lusternia, Immunity to sleep. A passive everyone but those weaker has. I'm sure that were I able to use my skills to full effect with you fighting as you do now, you'd lose. That's not to do with my skills or your skills, but how the skill was intended. You say that Insomnia was taken into account. Why would anyone make a class based on putting people asleep? Who in their right minds, would create a passive that completely negates an affliction before it even happens. If Insomnia was used as a cure rather than a defence, maybe it wouldn't be so bad. If Insomnia had a cooldown, it'd make the class work how I feel it was intended.

    I don't care about your opinions, Xenthos, and I don't care about the opinions of those who will read my name, and not the points I've made.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Enyalida said:
    Right, but that's not really a risk. You can see your health totals going down and pop into Nirvana, becoming immune to her attacks. The crotamine technique was useful because it gives no symptoms to the dreambody, while damage attacks can be detected by dropping health totals. 

    Not to mention that there is usually one person standing at the Moonhart, who can and should salt you if you're getting LoS attacked a few times. Not even Cyndarin's staff point should be one hit killing Fralunah, especially not if she's using absinthe. 

    except that people usually afk at the nexus, Cyndarin maxes out her fire buff, Fralunah probably doesn't have max fire resistances, Fralunah doesn't have sipping to slow down damage from staffcasts, and the messages between dreambody and real body are so disjointed, sometimes it's hard to tell what's going on. Even if Fralunah bodysnapped after the first hit, she'll still be off equi for a long time before she can stand and shield.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • I've mentioned there are risk for dreamweavers:
    Zapping
    Wiccans
    ANYONE WITH A RANGED SKILL....

    Though Wiccans can't attack me indoors so... but my nexus isn't indoors so.. 

    Please, just LISTEN to me rather than spitting the same thing out worded differently.
  • LuceLuce Fox Populi
    Related question, when did the Nirvana mobs become aggressive? I haven't been up in a while, and they were more or less influence-fodder last time I went up, and that was even with Dreamweavers having a -13/-13 regen malus 
  • edited June 2016

    Fralunah said:
    Or maybe, it's because I'm not a massive prick and don't exploit lowbies that can't defend themselves, which is what you constantly accuse me of with no evidence. Yes, not all of my deaths are related to dreamweaving, and yes, not all of them are due to dreamweaving being unbalanced. 

    *snip*
    Okay, chickadee. While I'm not one for picking fights and starting arguments. You have in the past attacked lowbies and novices at the beginning of your time as a dreamweaver in Glomdoring. You have persecuted us with this skillset, and now you are asking for dreamweaving to be buffed in such a manner which gives you a whole hog opportunity for more shenanigans. I think that the balance of the skillset is fair, if you can't be successful around the current mechanics you can politely ask for changes, maybe the admin will like them, but maybe they won't, but in the end, your pushing and being rude will not give you a good result.

    So, before you get all hot-headed about the cold hard facts these envoys are giving you, when they obviously know from YEARS of experience about Lusternia skillset balancing. Think about what you are saying, how you are saying it, and the opportunity of when it's time to log out of the forums, take a break, take a nice calm walk through the woods and listen to some Al Green.
    The apple is cold, crisp, and sour as the juices fill your mouth. As you consume the fruit, you glimpse, for a moment, a massive, shadowy figure, Her snow-white hair framing a perfect, icy-eyed visage. Beneath you, a vast, perfect web of silken strands lies - and, for a moment, you realize that you too are part of it, weaver and strand both - and home.
  • It took four pyrocannons at max buffs to kill her, as a note, and due to ignite doing damage on hit, I'm 98% certain pyrocannon does more than any other standard attack in the game.

    She's also literally level 60. 
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Fralunah said:
    I've mentioned there are risk for dreamweavers:
    Zapping
    Wiccans
    ANYONE WITH A RANGED SKILL....

    Though Wiccans can't attack me indoors so... but my nexus isn't indoors so.. 

    Please, just LISTEN to me rather than spitting the same thing out worded differently.

    I'm sorry, what? Why wouldn't a Wiccan be able to attack you indoors?
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    I asked for more risk for dreamweavers in exchange for getting buffs.  You are the one who wants buffs with no increase in risk; that is inherently imbalanced.  It is absolutely balanced right now in terms of what it can accomplish vs. what risks are required.  To both, the answer is "very little".

    You also clearly do care about my opinion, because you said you were going to calm down and write more reasoned responses, and yet you're doing exactly the opposite.  You're not addressing my points, you're just pretending that they don't matter because you say so and you feel that your opinion is law.

    In the end, it does not matter how you feel the class was intended.  What matters is how the players and the administration feel it is intended.  It is in the state it is right now very intentionally.  Buffs are not unequivocally ruled out... but they must come with corresponding balance changes.  No ifs, ands, or buts.  That's just the way it is.  That's how game balance works.

    PS: I'm not terribly frightened by you trying to "make anything I propose fail".  I've got a pretty long history of envoy reports & changes.  Most of them actually have been put in.  Regardless of whether or not you approve of me, I'm going to go ahead and continue doing what I always have; listening to good ideas, pointing out why bad ideas are bad, and trying to keep the game balanced and fun for the majority of players.  Giving someone a significant buff might be fun for them, but it can be extraordinarily detrimental to everyone else they interact with if not done fairly.
    image
  • LuceLuce Fox Populi
    I think she's talking about the two continent-wide murder skills that take a full coven and can only be done on the New/Full moon.
  • I think I'd have more than 3 kills if this were true. You have in the past attacked lowbies and novices at the beginning of your time as a dreamweaver in Glomdoring I even refrained from killing Aslen and I'll laugh if you call him a lowbie.

  • Shaddus said:
    Fralunah said:
    I've mentioned there are risk for dreamweavers:
    Zapping
    Wiccans
    ANYONE WITH A RANGED SKILL....

    Though Wiccans can't attack me indoors so... but my nexus isn't indoors so.. 

    Please, just LISTEN to me rather than spitting the same thing out worded differently.

    I'm sorry, what? Why wouldn't a Wiccan be able to attack you indoors?
    I think she is attempting to say that we as Wiccan's cannot wisp indoors?
    The apple is cold, crisp, and sour as the juices fill your mouth. As you consume the fruit, you glimpse, for a moment, a massive, shadowy figure, Her snow-white hair framing a perfect, icy-eyed visage. Beneath you, a vast, perfect web of silken strands lies - and, for a moment, you realize that you too are part of it, weaver and strand both - and home.
  • edited June 2016
    I think she's referring to ranged coven skills no one uses because there aren't enough coven users in the game anymore.

    PS. Shield stops all ranged attacks, including zaps and mage LoS attacks. Just need a pal to sprinkle some salt on you (not that you need to be any saltier).

    Or you can sleep in a manse and link to a buddy and let them walk you to prime. There are many ways to avoid ranged attacks as a weaver.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    @Maylea sweet Maylea, can we just shut this down? It's not going anywhere and won't be constructive.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • Is she talking about the long distance wicca attacks like coven stuff? That needs like five people from what I've been told by an SD.

    Avurekhos says, "Dylara's a PvP menace in my eyes, totes rekting face."

    The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable.
    Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.


  • edited June 2016
    Fralunah said:
    I think I'd have more than 3 kills if this were true. You have in the past attacked lowbies and novices at the beginning of your time as a dreamweaver in Glomdoring I even refrained from killing Aslen and I'll laugh if you call him a lowbie.
    Your approach to this conversation has gone beyond adolescent. I think people would respect what you're attempting to say if you weren't so rude. @Maylea, @Lisaera, can we get this shut down please?
    The apple is cold, crisp, and sour as the juices fill your mouth. As you consume the fruit, you glimpse, for a moment, a massive, shadowy figure, Her snow-white hair framing a perfect, icy-eyed visage. Beneath you, a vast, perfect web of silken strands lies - and, for a moment, you realize that you too are part of it, weaver and strand both - and home.
  • I think she's referring to ranged coven skills no one uses because there aren't enough coven users in the game anymore.

    PS. Shield stops all ranged attacks, including zaps and mage LoS attacks. Just need a pal to sprinkle some salt on you (not that you need to be any saltier).

    Or you can sleep in a manse and link to a buddy and let them walk you to prime. There are many ways to avoid ranged attacks as a weaver.
    Syntax: SHADOWDANCE TERROR
    Minimum Coven Size: 5
    A coven may invoke Night's terror when punishment needs to be extracted
    from a safe distance. Depending on the phase of the Moon, coven members
    are able to cast the following spells on any individual who remains
    outdoors: STEAL, SCOURGE, and NIGHTKISS. The terror of Mother Night
    may only be invoked under her eye, so this ritual must be danced
    outdoors. The area of effect is as follows:
    NEW MOON: Anyone in the same continent.
    WANING, WAXING: Anyone in the local area.
    FULL MOON: Cannot cast Terror.
    The apple is cold, crisp, and sour as the juices fill your mouth. As you consume the fruit, you glimpse, for a moment, a massive, shadowy figure, Her snow-white hair framing a perfect, icy-eyed visage. Beneath you, a vast, perfect web of silken strands lies - and, for a moment, you realize that you too are part of it, weaver and strand both - and home.
  • It took four pyrocannons at max buffs to kill her, as a note, and due to ignite doing damage on hit, I'm 98% certain pyrocannon does more than any other standard attack in the game.
    She's also literally level 60. 

    It takes more than 4 channels if you're trying to kill someone with dreamweaving, and then 8 power since people don't fall asleep.
    I don't see how 4 basic attacks is balanced at all. I don't see why no one has addressed that issue.
    I normally have Bear, Tree and Trout up. Then Moon or Sun. 
    Note I was awake when she killed me, so could sip health potions.

    Wat?
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    This kid kinda reminds me of a 12 year old Draylor.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    edited June 2016
    The manse linking thing (shouldn't) work anymore, fyi. It might still be considered the same plane, but you can't do things like stand in an orgbix room and dreamweave around prime anymore. 

    EDIT: Yeah, you should see how much damage I deal to you with my bashing attacks. It'll be about the same amount of hits to kill, possibly one more but I doubt it. The trick is that it's really easy to stop someone just bashing attacking you to death, as they aren't hindering you or anything. 
  • edited June 2016
    Fralunah said:
    It took four pyrocannons at max buffs to kill her, as a note, and due to ignite doing damage on hit, I'm 98% certain pyrocannon does more than any other standard attack in the game.
    She's also literally level 60. 

    It takes more than 4 channels if you're trying to kill someone with dreamweaving, and then 8 power since people don't fall asleep.
    I don't see how 4 basic attacks is balanced at all. I don't see why no one has addressed that issue.
    I normally have Bear, Tree and Trout up. Then Moon or Sun. 
    Note I was awake when she killed me, so could sip health potions.

    Wat?
    I see now. You're thinking in essence that Dreamweaving as a main skill, when in fact it is tertiary. You use your meld and use dreamweaving to build off of it. Dreamweaving was not meant for what you have been doing.
    The apple is cold, crisp, and sour as the juices fill your mouth. As you consume the fruit, you glimpse, for a moment, a massive, shadowy figure, Her snow-white hair framing a perfect, icy-eyed visage. Beneath you, a vast, perfect web of silken strands lies - and, for a moment, you realize that you too are part of it, weaver and strand both - and home.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    If you were awake, you could have just invoked a circle.  Invulnerability to ranged attacks, activate.  Heck, you could have someone sprinkle salt around your dreambody and be invulnerable while dreamgriefing (another nail in the coffin of "imbalanced").  Unless the overhaul changed that and made aggressive dreambody actions drop shields, at least?  I'm not entirely sure about that one, @Enyalida .
    image
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    It does drop shields. So does moving around in dreambody last I checked, so you'd need someone stationed on you to keep salting you (or just to salt you when called for). 
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