I don't think Fyler is the Soulless we're looking for. I think they took Selenity's verification of their innocence way too much for granted, and didn't plan to lose that security. I don't think that's what someone running a bluff would've done, especially someone who's supposed to be good at it. If you're going to bluff that hard, you think up a backup story for yourself, you don't act like you've had the rug pulled out from under you and have nothing else to offer once something goes wrong.
I am going to be a little bit snarky because I cannot resist these kinds of opportunities, though.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
It's more the refusal to cooperate rather than an outright lie in this case. I'm pretty sure the only reason more pressure wasn't put on you about it before now was because Selenity always vouched for you, and now that she isn't sure anymore, that policy of not talking is backfiring. You look suspicious because you've refused to tell us what your deal is, because you thought you'd never have to in order to be in the clear. But that's also the reason my gut reaction is that you aren't guilty - it would be kind of dumb to deliberately and openly refuse to cooperate if you were scheming to blend in to the town. And I don't think you're dumb.
@Silvanus you missed Fyler's vote for Yomo which makes it 2-2 and even more of a conundrum.
Ok, people not presenting a thorough defence, and letting others do the spadework for them, doesn't exactly inspire confidence. So 'nul points' for Yomo in this regard.
Don't make others trawl through pages upon pages trying to find instances which -might- prove you're Town. Provide them yourself!
Though while I'm sure I'm guilty of having done it myself, I also dislike the 'why would I do this?' and 'you better have a backup plan' challenges being presented from Fyler.
Fyler is also like Sylandra for me, in that having been caught out more than once, she is someone for whom I am always thinking 'Is she playing us all again?'
But Fyler is also now in the situation that I thought I would find myself in, i.e., having no alibi when under scrutiny at a crucial stage of the game, so am someway sympathetic to her position.
The Hallifur thing I think has only ever been my bugbear, and it is because we know all other bolded races are -not- present in the game. So my logic was: Furrikin got bolded -> Bollikin isn't present. That you shut down that line of inquiry on a 'we know something you don't know, accept it or else' type argument didn't sit easy, and it has been a niggling concern since.
Yes, it is 100% based on interpreting flavour messages, but mod-posts are the only thing I get to go on for verified info. The caveat? Mods make mistakes.
So...
I still think the Fyler–Selenity distrust could be a Teller–Ulam scenario, and can only imagine the glee with which Silvanus is watching it unfold.
I also have to believe that while Silvanus may be an evil genius in his web-of-deceit-mafia-making skills, that he is standing back and letting the game play out, rather than deliberately manipulating what should be random rolls to present the most misleading information.
So following Othero's information to where it leads
Vote Yomoigu
(preemptive 'goddamnit' if Fyler has fooled me again.)
(Also rawr @Sylandra , I'll have that tune in my head all day now.)
@Ushaara I don't know what you mean by not actively defending myself... I answered your question and have explained my power numerous times! What else do you want to hear from me?
I'm also not sure why you're buying Fyler's new defense; it's literally gone from 'I don't have to explain myself since Selenity trusts me' to 'If I had known that Selenity would learn that she SHOULDN'T have been blindly trusting me all game, I would have played differently!'
I know it's a completely subjective read on my part, but Fyler just seems to be presenting more of a case for her innocence than you are.
The onus isn't on me or others to argue for you. You should be the one putting in more of an effort to persuade us that you are what you claim to be. Whether that be finding discrepancies in Fyler's arguments or something different.
You responded on the Breandryn point, fair enough, but that was an argument you could have used to persuade us yourself. You didn't, and I'm wary that me bringing it up may have just given you a convenient out.
As I said before, trying to ascribe reasons to someone's actions is next to impossible in this game.
Questioning Breandryn as you did could have been a bad mafia play, or it could have been innocent townie trying to find inconsistencies.
I'll say that I could still be persuaded to switch to Fyler, but you're the one who has to convince me to change my vote if you don't want to be lynched.
(Also lingering 'once bitten, twice shy' feeling resulting from defending Synkarin in Reign mafia.)
Alright then... A few short points of defense and attack:
My jailing ability (without harming the target) is a known quality, nothing of any substance is known about Fyler.
When Weiwae claimed that he was an Interrogator (same powers as I had) I questioned him immediately on that point.
Despite what you think of the argument now, I did question Breandryn as soon as she revealed that she tried to deliver an item to Shaddus. There would have been absolutely no point in my doing so unless I had additional information about the situation (i.e. he had also been jailed by me)
For most of the game, Fyler has been almost smugly obtuse when it came to his role and how it worked, always hiding behind Selenity's protection. It was only when that protection was withdrawn and he's been scrambling to find another defense that his play style has changed.
Though while I'm sure I'm guilty of having done it myself, I also dislike the 'why would I do this?' and 'you better have a backup plan' challenges being presented from Fyler.
The first question is important and is how I play mafia. I try to reconcile behavior within the context of the full game. People do things for reasons, motive is an important part of any court case.
The backup plan is because I will still have a part to play if you kill me, a vote. I can't participate in a discussion though, so I'd prefer to have the "what if" discussion now rather than as a mute.
I'm also not sure why you're buying Fyler's new defense; it's literally gone from 'I don't have to explain myself since Selenity trusts me' to 'If I had known that Selenity would learn that she SHOULDN'T have been blindly trusting me all game, I would have played differently!'
That's a pretty deliberately and specifically worded misrepresentation. "That she shouldn't trust me?" That wasn't my argument at all, and your attempt to portray it as such, I hope, shows the town just how slimey you're being to make the deflect attention away from you. My argument was, very clearly, that Selenity and I were operating under the same incorrect assumption and I held sensitive information close to the chest because I had a safety net the town was okay with. Had this not been the case, I would have revealed the information when it might have actually bought me credibility. As I said, now it buys me none.
I think if the case against me was so solid and obvious as you're trying to make it sound, you wouldn't have to literally change my words.
Obtuse is an attempt to frustrate, I rather simply didn't share the existence of win scenario. Portraying me as smug, rather than just not succumbing to pressure is pretty disingenuous. Obviously intentionally so.
When I told people "No, I won't share," I continued to offer explanations and my reasoning. Including:
1) Sharing the information my compromise the information (aka a known special win condition has a harder time being achieved) 2) It's not a power, I can't independently prove it. 3) It offers no new helpful information to the town.
In any event, if everyone not named Yomoigu doesn't believe me, I will argue that if all this is a lie....if I made it all up, why did I reveal my information at all while Selenity was still backing me. Look back over the day, she was literally still agreeing with my posts as I revealed the win condition I had held back. It wasn't until after that she realized we had been wrong, and changed her vote.
If I was actually playing Selenity, why would I call my own bluff? Why would I put something vague that Selenity had been agreeing with into a defined, specific box that Selenity could actually measure against her role? Did I decide "Hey this is going to well, let me make something up and see if Selenity notices?"
Honestly, it just makes no sense.
Known Aliases: Celina/Cyndarin/Fire Jesus/The Night/That Bitch who griefed us
If I was Illith, I obviously didn't know wtf Selenity's thing was...because here we are. So why define it, why make it a specific thing she can disagree with? Why play someone up to the point of nearly winning only to give her a reason to call the bluff?
Known Aliases: Celina/Cyndarin/Fire Jesus/The Night/That Bitch who griefed us
@Yomoigu You did give a few new points to consider but while Selenity's pivot raised doubts regarding Fyler, and the
Breandryn questioning was a bit of a lifeline for you, I just believe her arguments over yours.
So off gut, Othero's info, and belief that Xyl was our
only true Traitor-hunter..
Crystal Observatory (INVESTIGATOR): Atop the highest--and coincidentally the most power-laden--mountain upon the First World was a conglomerate of tall spires that you built to observe the cosmos. You can also use the ability to watch your fellow Elders and discern their true nature somehow.
Dude, that isn't a traitor hunting ability. It just says that he'll know an elder's identity if he investigated them... Just like the caveat in Weiwae's power
Every time I convince myself enough to vote, I immediately doubt the thought process that lead me to it.
(Did Fyler somehow know both Vivet and Portius were scum when she recommended listening to them as mafia masterminds etc...)
But I've hippity hopped back and forth so much today I'm near paralyzed by indecision.
If you're town, apologies, but I could dither on this for another week and still not be able to separate the pair of you. In the end I have to make a decision.
Man I'm in an awkward position. I said I was ok voting for either for the reasons I already stated, but if I vote Yomo it will be me 'sniping the lynch' (rude, I don't want to mess up and kill any more town tyvm), and voting Fyler puts us at a hung vote.
You know, there's every possibility that Selenity coming out with her newfound distrust caught Fyler unawares. Like, there's certainly the possibility he was being lazy, with the whole 'I'll come up with a story if she dies first/hopefully she never will and I can skate on this thin ice forever' but that was taken away.
I still want to know who on earth blocked Yomo. I'd expect someone to own up by now unless they are deliberately framing him. It's that reason that I'm leaning more to Vote Fyler
You wanted this to drag on right? Wish granted @Fyler
Wait, how would it catch me unaware if I offered the specifics and details while she still agreed with me?
So I'm Illith and lazy, and I'm just playing Selenity and riding the win train. So I decide to share my made up information and am SURPRISED SELENITY SAYS IT IS MADE UP and, naturally, I'm caught unaware by the thing I know I did.
You guys. What the actual f***. Are we just not paying attention to the order of events?
Known Aliases: Celina/Cyndarin/Fire Jesus/The Night/That Bitch who griefed us
Your power activated by a different means to how you thought it would, but your superwin obviously still hasn't happened or we wouldn't be having this discussion. Is there still scope for Fyler to be key in achieving your superwin condition? Could that be where the confusion stems from?
The two jailors thing is weird and uncommon, but we don't appear to have a vanilla roleblocker and I'm assuming Yomoigu is Mysrai and has shifting powers, so mebbe... Of Yomo/Weiwae, since Weiwae was confirmed by Luce, Yomo would have to be rated as more suspicious.
Well, you're half-right anyway. I am Mysrai, but I'm no power shifter. The reason I was insistent that Weiwae be absolutely certain as to the reason why he was convinced Phoebus was a Soulless was because the power he thought he had is the power I actually have. My name is Mysrai, and I am a Soulless-sniffer*
*To be completely accurate I am an excoroperditio-sniffer, but that doesn't roll off the tongue quite as well
Any given night I can jail a target and sense their aura to see if it is pure or if it has been contaminated by soulless essence. As was mentioned by a few of you, this ability can be very powerful but there are drawbacks. I can only use it X amount of times (though it is refreshed if I find a Soulless or Traitor) and if I go X attempts in a row without finding a baddie, I am removed from the game. I have used the power twice now (Night 2 against Selenity and last night against Shaddus).
Night 2, why didn't you jail me to test my claim? It would have confirmed canon Traitors can start as Town, or have caught me lying. Win/win benefit for town, even if limited X-shot.
Night 3, why didn't you jail one of Portius/Othero after the way that day ended? Conflicting claim meant one of them had to be lying.
If you're Town, I don't understand your choices. But I didn't get Dylara going for Vivet over myself either, so maybe you can justify?
Comments
Yomoigu - Phoebus (1)
Fyler - Yomoigu, Selenity (2)
With six alive, it takes four to lynch.
I am going to be a little bit snarky because I cannot resist these kinds of opportunities, though.
Ok, people not presenting a thorough defence, and letting others do the spadework for them, doesn't exactly inspire confidence. So 'nul points' for Yomo in this regard.
Don't make others trawl through pages upon pages trying to find instances which -might- prove you're Town. Provide them yourself!
Though while I'm sure I'm guilty of having done it myself, I also dislike the 'why would I do this?' and 'you better have a backup plan' challenges being presented from Fyler.
Fyler is also like Sylandra for me, in that having been caught out more than once, she is someone for whom I am always thinking 'Is she playing us all again?'
But Fyler is also now in the situation that I thought I would find myself in, i.e., having no alibi when under scrutiny at a crucial stage of the game, so am someway sympathetic to her position.
The Hallifur thing I think has only ever been my bugbear, and it is because we know all other bolded races are -not- present in the game. So my logic was: Furrikin got bolded -> Bollikin isn't present. That you shut down that line of inquiry on a 'we know something you don't know, accept it or else' type argument didn't sit easy, and it has been a niggling concern since.
Yes, it is 100% based on interpreting flavour messages, but mod-posts are the only thing I get to go on for verified info. The caveat? Mods make mistakes.
So...
I still think the Fyler–Selenity distrust could be a Teller–Ulam scenario, and can only imagine the glee with which Silvanus is watching it unfold.
I also have to believe that while Silvanus may be an evil genius in his web-of-deceit-mafia-making skills, that he is standing back and letting the game play out, rather than deliberately manipulating what should be random rolls to present the most misleading information.
So following Othero's information to where it leads
Vote Yomoigu
(preemptive 'goddamnit' if Fyler has fooled me again.)
(Also rawr @Sylandra , I'll have that tune in my head all day now.)
The onus isn't on me or others to argue for you. You should be the one putting in more of an effort to persuade us that you are what you claim to be. Whether that be finding discrepancies in Fyler's arguments or something different.
You responded on the Breandryn point, fair enough, but that was an argument you could have used to persuade us yourself. You didn't, and I'm wary that me bringing it up may have just given you a convenient out.
As I said before, trying to ascribe reasons to someone's actions is next to impossible in this game.
Questioning Breandryn as you did could have been a bad mafia play, or it could have been innocent townie trying to find inconsistencies.
I'll say that I could still be persuaded to switch to Fyler, but you're the one who has to convince me to change my vote if you don't want to be lynched.
(Also lingering 'once bitten, twice shy' feeling resulting from defending Synkarin in Reign mafia.)
(I am 100% surprised that Lavinya didn't snipe the lynch.)
The backup plan is because I will still have a part to play if you kill me, a vote. I can't participate in a discussion though, so I'd prefer to have the "what if" discussion now rather than as a mute.
That's a pretty deliberately and specifically worded misrepresentation. "That she shouldn't trust me?" That wasn't my argument at all, and your attempt to portray it as such, I hope, shows the town just how slimey you're being to make the deflect attention away from you. My argument was, very clearly, that Selenity and I were operating under the same incorrect assumption and I held sensitive information close to the chest because I had a safety net the town was okay with. Had this not been the case, I would have revealed the information when it might have actually bought me credibility. As I said, now it buys me none.
I think if the case against me was so solid and obvious as you're trying to make it sound, you wouldn't have to literally change my words.
Obtuse is an attempt to frustrate, I rather simply didn't share the existence of win scenario. Portraying me as smug, rather than just not succumbing to pressure is pretty disingenuous. Obviously intentionally so.
When I told people "No, I won't share," I continued to offer explanations and my reasoning. Including:
1) Sharing the information my compromise the information (aka a known special win condition has a harder time being achieved)
2) It's not a power, I can't independently prove it.
3) It offers no new helpful information to the town.
In any event, if everyone not named Yomoigu doesn't believe me, I will argue that if all this is a lie....if I made it all up, why did I reveal my information at all while Selenity was still backing me. Look back over the day, she was literally still agreeing with my posts as I revealed the win condition I had held back. It wasn't until after that she realized we had been wrong, and changed her vote.
If I was actually playing Selenity, why would I call my own bluff? Why would I put something vague that Selenity had been agreeing with into a defined, specific box that Selenity could actually measure against her role? Did I decide "Hey this is going to well, let me make something up and see if Selenity notices?"
Honestly, it just makes no sense.
So off gut, Othero's info, and belief that Xyl was our only true Traitor-hunter..
Vote Yomoigu
(preemptive goddamnit still applies)
Every time I convince myself enough to vote, I immediately doubt the thought process that lead me to it.
(Did Fyler somehow know both Vivet and Portius were scum when she recommended listening to them as mafia masterminds etc...)
But I've hippity hopped back and forth so much today I'm near paralyzed by indecision.
If you're town, apologies, but I could dither on this for another week and still not be able to separate the pair of you. In the end I have to make a decision.
You might be able to convince Phoebus to unvote!
I still want to know who on earth blocked Yomo. I'd expect someone to own up by now unless they are deliberately framing him. It's that reason that I'm leaning more to Vote Fyler
You wanted this to drag on right? Wish granted @Fyler
How am I supposed to sleep with it left like this? Worst timezone! barlgle!
So I'm Illith and lazy, and I'm just playing Selenity and riding the win train. So I decide to share my made up information and am SURPRISED SELENITY SAYS IT IS MADE UP and, naturally, I'm caught unaware by the thing I know I did.
You guys. What the actual f***. Are we just not paying attention to the order of events?
Your power activated by a different means to how you thought it would, but your superwin obviously still hasn't happened or we wouldn't be having this discussion. Is there still scope for Fyler to be key in achieving your superwin condition? Could that be where the confusion stems from?
Night 2, why didn't you jail me to test my claim? It would have confirmed canon Traitors can start as Town, or have caught me lying. Win/win benefit for town, even if limited X-shot.
Night 3, why didn't you jail one of Portius/Othero after the way that day ended? Conflicting claim meant one of them had to be lying.
If you're Town, I don't understand your choices. But I didn't get Dylara going for Vivet over myself either, so maybe you can justify?