For transparency, could someone please post the afflictions that each monk boosts haemorrhaging with? (Also it might just be my reading wrong but is the amount 100 per aff or is it a flat 100h if any of the affs are present on the next form?) EDIT: It's per aff.
(I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)
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Bonus Effect: 15% more damage on the form hitting a surge stance.
Changing stances now deals hemorrhaging. Hemorrhaging is an affliction that prevents you from clotting bleed below that level, or bruising below half that level. It cures over time.
Certain afflictions will give you bonus hemorrhaging if your target has them when you start your form. Boosting will also double your hemorrhaging.
You can now use the BURST word to convert all your targets hemorrhaging to bleeding. This cannot be done on full actions.
Hard to get any concrete impressions of how this'll work for nekotai, since spronghai still gives haemophilia (so I still have old dust pressure, yes I am super op). I imagine that'll get fixed pretty soon so will hopefully get a better idea of where things are at now.
I don't think monk will be fun to fight one v one until a paralysis nerf happens, however.
Spronghai should only be available from surge onwards. The change has removed haemophilia as a guarantee'd aff from the Nekotai repertoire until Surge. You should see our aff rate drop significantly unless power is spent to constantly bounce between surge and killer. Once you cycle down to base, the aff rate falls off dramatically.
Secondly, the change should have also lowered haemophilia's importance as an affliction. Most bleeding should be built via hemorrhaging now, and curing off haemophilia won't help you with that. Flat bleed at Surge still remains high, though the halving of sprongma should have removed most of Nekotai's flat bleed burst. Not sure whether the other monk specs are similarly affected. With hemorrhaging, curing haemophilia won't save you unless you get a burst of flat bleed. And with hemorrhaging, there is no need for monks to get a burst of flat bleed anymore. The hemorrhaging boosts are gated by only 1 dust affliction, so building a dust stack is now less valuable. Instead, a mixed, multi-balance aff pressure is needed for a Nekotai to get their kill. In theory, it shouldn't be impossible. There may be some more tweaks needed to the affs that the Nekotai can give to make this viable... but at this point, that's theory. Getting some combat logs in would be good.
For Nekotai who are sparring, you'll want to focus on lucidity and dust for now, to try and get hemorrhaging procs from dysentery and confusion. The latter might be the more viable one to reliably hit for now, since we don't have dysentery as a guarantee'd aff. The poisons route is probably the more reliable route now. Ironically, the safety net route is now the better route. Vessels just doesn't synergize with hermorrhaging, and provides little benefit for aff building. Some things will need to be tweaked on both stance routes that are pending, but seeing how things work for now will help inform me on what direction I should be going.
I haven't gotten to spar new monks yet, eagerly awaiting Wabbu waking up. However, with hemorrhaging in now, monks get an attrition mechanic on top of their very strong aff pressure AND vitals pressure. In fact their attrition mechanic includes vitals pressure.
If we compare monks to warriors, it becomes clear how unprecedented monks' strengths are. Warriors are expected to sacrifice aff giving entirely, except for poisons, in order to build their attrition mechanic, which on its own has no negative effects on the target.
Monks are able to continue to give many afflictions on top of poisons on top of higher amounts of bleed and damage than warriors. Hemorrhaging also has a strong negative effect of locking in a constant damage tick on the target.
I can't speak to the numbers on hemorrhaging (but they look high on first glance), but I do think that I can say with confidence that monks need to have their affliction capability brought further down to bring them into line with warriors, or hemorrhaging needs to build MUCH slower than deepwounds do. (The thinking here is if monks get an equivalently strong attrition game, they shouldn't get a stronger aff game, and vice versa)
Also, what else are monks sacrificing relative to warriors, because hemorrhaging is a more deadly form of attrition than deepwounds themselves?
Finally, monks get acrobatics, ironically making them significantly harder to kill than warriors.
Just wanted to take a moment to look at the big picture, and hope that we can steer our changes with a bit of give and take in mind.
Aff rate does not seem to be changed all that much, if at all. Particularly for nekotai, with relapsing. Why they even get it, I'm not entirely sure. This is coming from someone who has two healingauras, as well as double curing from my institute weapon as well as timeslip/foresight + futureglimpse and timelessbody.
Haemo is still definitely a high priority affliction, especially since bleeding still vastly surpasses how much hemorrhaging monks can give. Bleeding racks up, and it does so rapidly. Not over time like the concept with hemorrhaging initially suggested it would.
Positive?:
Hemorrhaging doesn't seem that bad. But the rate at which monks can hinder makes it a terrifying prospect. The aff rate wouldn't be so frightening if they didn't attack so quickly. I think that can/should be looked at now that hemorrhaging is a thing, that gives them some form of insurance.
The damage difference is definitely noticeable now, over a prolonged period of time.
Their vitals pressure has certainly gone down a noticeable amount. The affliction rate is still problematic, however. Removing blind access from them would go a long way, whilst still giving them more than noticeable amounts of hinder.
eta: I think 100 curing per 10 seconds is too low. Either the amount cured should be increased a bit, or the time between curing ticks should be decreased 2-3 seconds.
I think it's definitely a problem that one of the haemorrhaging afflictions is on the dust balance when monks are capable of giving dust afflictions at 3+ per form. If you are curing correctly (haemo, para, blindness) you will have the dust haemorrhage affliction persist to the next form. If you instead decide to cure it you'll be hindered and unable to retaliate in the interim between forms, worst case scenario. That said, the rate of monk affliction output will be changed and the haemorrhage system shouldn't adjust until those changes are decided upon.
It becomes more problematic when you have instances such as Nekotai spit + beast spit allowing a potential +200 haemorrhage regardless of the state of the opponent prior to the form.
(I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)
== Professional Girl Gamer == Yes I play games Yes I'm a girl get over it
Otherwise it'll be just like the old warrior calcise/dendroxin dilemma. Each monk will have to use that poison to be effective, and then the attrition build will have to be balanced around being able to use that poison, and it will suck when you don't.
For those interested I put up special report 1660 to address some of these issues: If you have any feedback on that report bug your envoy to comment on it or send me a message (but I'm realistically not going to be available for at least ~14 hours).
Edit: I missed some of the poison discussion. I don't think having the affs be poison affs is an issue by itself. I think being able to use alternative sources of poisons to increase the hemorrhaging rate is problematic though. This was designed around building on relatively weaker affs, which we have very few of post-overhaul, if you remove affs given by poisons then the pool becomes so small that each spec wouldn't be able to a remotely unique set. Also I think it's a much nicer meta to have a a class that does not want to spit mantakaya all the time. Variety is the spice of life etc.
In the vein of backseat envoying, solution one to report 1660, superimposed onto my log would still result in 1060 hemorrhaging in 30s. (Instead of 1260)
Obviously that is still too much. I just am afraid of the admin choosing sol 1, which isn't a solution at all. If they want to go that route they need to turn the numbers down, or adjust the afflictions that boost hemorrhaging.
The spitting issue is one that escape all of our (envoys) attention in the final design of hemorrhaging. I still think hemorrhaging is the way to go, though as always, further tweaks are needed, both to hemorrhaging and various other monk things. Keep talking with your envoys!
To elaborate more on what I'm thinking, what I imagined/am envisioning for monks right now, is that their major affliction pressure will come in a killer stance burst, which they'll use to stack the afflictions they need for their hemorrhaging boost, then next form get the bonus. On the other stances they'll be more hard-pressed to get the bonuses or major hindering, and will stay at equilibrium levels of hemorrhaging. This leads to a clear weak-strong cycle with stances (my favorite part of the stance system), and steady but hopefully not too overwhelming build.
So, I haven't got an opportunity to fight any monks post-hemorrhaging release, but seemingly we're not to that ideal point yet, but I think we have a foundation for further change in both groups and solo. If you were following especially closely, you can see how this evolved from the initial idea of hemorrhaging, which was closer to a warrior slow and steady buildup, but was repetitive and not as 'monkish'.
I do think solution 2 of that report is the one that should be accepted and I totally did finalize it too early but I wanted to get it submitted before I had to go to work. 200 bonus hemorrhaging per 5 forms works almost perfectly out to 750/min which I think is a good rate.
For those interested in checking the numbers here's the formula I've been using
Where bonus_hemorrhaging is the amount of hemorrhaging per 5 forms and balance_time is the balance loss of each form. The 150 represents the 30 hemorrhaging you get just for entering a stance on someone, the -10 represents the cure rate which is 100 / 10sec or 10/sec. The whole thing is multiplied by 60 get the amount per minute.
Solution 1 gives us a cap of 2000 hemorrhaging a minute at 3.0 balance time and 1628 hemorrhaging a minute at 3.5s balance, both of which are obviously too much.
Solution 2 using 100 hemorrhaging per aff gives us 800 hemorrhaging a minute at 3.0 balance and 600 a minute at 3.5 bal.
Solution 3 by itself (because I forgot to include solution 1 in the report) at 50/aff reduces the possible max to 200 bonus a form which works out to a cap of 3.3k hemorrhaging a minute at 3.5s bal.
Solution 3 + 1 would work out to a cap of 1000 hemorrhaging at 3.0 balance and 771 hemorrhaging a minute at 3.5s.
I think the main problem here is the pre-form poisons, specifically beast spit and nekotai spit. Shedrin is correct, that was unintended when we were hashing out the design and the numbers.
Beast spit is not that problematic - it is once every 10s, which is basically every 3 forms. I can envoy Nekotai spit to only happen at the end of a form, so it removes Nekotai spit as a concern, but ur'life beast will still remain an outlier, if only because it is 2 hidden affs.
I think perhaps that there is a simpler way to solve all of this rather than your complicated formula, Wobou.
Just re-scale the hemorrhaging bonus: 1 aff = +10 hemorrhaging 2 affs = +70 hemorrhaging 3 affs = +150 hemorrhaging all 4 affs = +250 hemorrhaging
All monks will be able to do at least 1 aff using beast spit - that gives them little more than a consolation prize with the re-scaled numbers (edit to add: even if this happens every form, it'll actually be lower hemorrhaging than the formula in Wobou's spreadsheet,or rather, it will be the "50" column in Wobou's spreadsheet - the idea is that if you're just triggering 1 aff every form, you're not going to make much progress). 2 affs will scale up significantly, and is still well within the possibility of any monk with a beast... but the number is lower than 1 aff of the current numbers. I think this will work to pull down the hemorrhaging building speed, as the logs show is needed. 3 affs and 4 affs are extremely difficult to achieve, and I believe should be rewarded with significant burst.
Speaking on the Nekotai set up, the four affs are all on different cure balances. Pressuring one cure is no problem of course, even if all spitting is taken out of the picture, and 2 is also perfectly possible with beast spit - it won't happen every form, for as long as it relies on beast spit. 3 is theoretically possible with beast spit... but it would most certainly require a burst of affliction that would only really be available from Surge onwards. 4 is all but impossible except in groups, or a dc'd opponent.
Edit to add: I think we'll want to make it one-of-each-cure-balance for all the monk specs, if any of them aren't at it yet. That will, at least, solve the ur'life beast problem.
Edit to add: Obviously, the numbers above can also be tweaked as and when needed, if it brings hemorrhaging numbers down too much.
On hindsight, +10 for the first aff might be a little too punishing, since beast spit doesn't happen every single form. It would end up creating scenarios where a monk DID a good job building an aff... but because it's only 1, he gets almost nothing. But it IS a good way to ensure that beast spits are all but discounted in the grand scheme of things. If a monk can get 2 affs on the target to proc in multiple consecutive forms, I think he deserves the +70, though.
If beast spit/urlife/etc are too imbalancing, why not just make beast attacks/powers require being mounted, then make it impossible to do forms while mounted? That way, everyone can still do beast stuff except for monks, who don't need it.
Judging by the logs, I agree that the numbers need adjustment, but this change addreses the issue at a base level.
If beast spit/urlife/etc are too imbalancing, why not just make beast attacks/powers require being mounted, then make it impossible to do forms while mounted? That way, everyone can still do beast stuff except for monks, who don't need it.
Judging by the logs, I agree that the numbers need adjustment, but this change addreses the issue at a base level.
That'd be a fairly big nerf to beast powers for everyone who doesn't have spurs.
Change the trans skill of Beastmastery to a Spurs effect. I don't know how many people use the trans skill currently, but I know that I have never used it, in fact I do not even know how to use it (not a learned skill).
So you're saying it encourages $$$, I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, further there is an argument to be made that the beast offense powers are too good to begin with. Lastly, this is just for spit, beast focus, defense, etc should be unaffected.
If beast spit/urlife/etc are too imbalancing, why not just make beast attacks/powers require being mounted, then make it impossible to do forms while mounted? That way, everyone can still do beast stuff except for monks, who don't need it.
Judging by the logs, I agree that the numbers need adjustment, but this change addreses the issue at a base level.
I would really like this idea if it worked, but there's nothing stopping you to 'beast order <attack>/dismount/do kata form' all together.
But really, if there was something that could preclude monks from using it as a prefix attack, I think it'd be overall good for monks because it wouldn't lock a top tier offense behind having a trained beast + ascendant powers.
If beast spit/urlife/etc are too imbalancing, why not just make beast attacks/powers require being mounted, then make it impossible to do forms while mounted? That way, everyone can still do beast stuff except for monks, who don't need it.
Judging by the logs, I agree that the numbers need adjustment, but this change addreses the issue at a base level.
I would really like this idea if it worked, but there's nothing stopping you to 'beast order <attack>/dismount/do kata form' all together.
But really, if there was something that could preclude monks from using it as a prefix attack, I think it'd be overall good for monks because it wouldn't lock a top tier offense behind having a trained beast + ascendant powers.
In thinking on it, it would be best to have beasts be nice additions, but not required for combat. My main concern was that beast spit mantakaya is a big part of warrior parry bypass. However, seeing monks get a skill to just parry bypass for X seconds, puts hope in the fact that maybe warriors can get similar.
Comments
It's only a temporary solution, but better than nothing.
Discord: Pharanyx#4357
(Also it might just be my reading wrong but is the amount 100 per aff or is it a flat 100h if any of the affs are present on the next form?) EDIT: It's per aff.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
This is the advanced version of the Base stance.
Bonus Effect: 15% more damage on the form hitting a surge stance.
Changing stances now deals hemorrhaging. Hemorrhaging is an affliction
that prevents you from clotting bleed below that level, or bruising
below half that level. It cures over time.
Certain afflictions will give you bonus hemorrhaging if your target has
them when you start your form. Boosting will also double your
hemorrhaging.
You can now use the BURST word to convert all your targets hemorrhaging
to bleeding. This cannot be done on full actions.
Syntax: KATA PERFORM <target> <form> BURST
Afflictions: DamagedSkull, Dysentery, Healthleech, Epilepsy
Hard to get any concrete impressions of how this'll work for nekotai, since spronghai still gives haemophilia (so I still have old dust pressure, yes I am super op). I imagine that'll get fixed pretty soon so will hopefully get a better idea of where things are at now.
I don't think monk will be fun to fight one v one until a paralysis nerf happens, however.
Secondly, the change should have also lowered haemophilia's importance as an affliction. Most bleeding should be built via hemorrhaging now, and curing off haemophilia won't help you with that. Flat bleed at Surge still remains high, though the halving of sprongma should have removed most of Nekotai's flat bleed burst. Not sure whether the other monk specs are similarly affected. With hemorrhaging, curing haemophilia won't save you unless you get a burst of flat bleed. And with hemorrhaging, there is no need for monks to get a burst of flat bleed anymore. The hemorrhaging boosts are gated by only 1 dust affliction, so building a dust stack is now less valuable. Instead, a mixed, multi-balance aff pressure is needed for a Nekotai to get their kill. In theory, it shouldn't be impossible. There may be some more tweaks needed to the affs that the Nekotai can give to make this viable... but at this point, that's theory. Getting some combat logs in would be good.
For Nekotai who are sparring, you'll want to focus on lucidity and dust for now, to try and get hemorrhaging procs from dysentery and confusion. The latter might be the more viable one to reliably hit for now, since we don't have dysentery as a guarantee'd aff. The poisons route is probably the more reliable route now. Ironically, the safety net route is now the better route. Vessels just doesn't synergize with hermorrhaging, and provides little benefit for aff building. Some things will need to be tweaked on both stance routes that are pending, but seeing how things work for now will help inform me on what direction I should be going.
If we compare monks to warriors, it becomes clear how unprecedented monks' strengths are. Warriors are expected to sacrifice aff giving entirely, except for poisons, in order to build their attrition mechanic, which on its own has no negative effects on the target.
Monks are able to continue to give many afflictions on top of poisons on top of higher amounts of bleed and damage than warriors. Hemorrhaging also has a strong negative effect of locking in a constant damage tick on the target.
I can't speak to the numbers on hemorrhaging (but they look high on first glance), but I do think that I can say with confidence that monks need to have their affliction capability brought further down to bring them into line with warriors, or hemorrhaging needs to build MUCH slower than deepwounds do. (The thinking here is if monks get an equivalently strong attrition game, they shouldn't get a stronger aff game, and vice versa)
Also, what else are monks sacrificing relative to warriors, because hemorrhaging is a more deadly form of attrition than deepwounds themselves?
Finally, monks get acrobatics, ironically making them significantly harder to kill than warriors.
Just wanted to take a moment to look at the big picture, and hope that we can steer our changes with a bit of give and take in mind.
Negative:
- Aff rate does not seem to be changed all that much, if at all. Particularly for nekotai, with relapsing. Why they even get it, I'm not entirely sure. This is coming from someone who has two healingauras, as well as double curing from my institute weapon as well as timeslip/foresight + futureglimpse and timelessbody.
- Haemo is still definitely a high priority affliction, especially since bleeding still vastly surpasses how much hemorrhaging monks can give. Bleeding racks up, and it does so rapidly. Not over time like the concept with hemorrhaging initially suggested it would.
Positive?:- Hemorrhaging doesn't seem that bad. But the rate at which monks can hinder makes it a terrifying prospect. The aff rate wouldn't be so frightening if they didn't attack so quickly. I think that can/should be looked at now that hemorrhaging is a thing, that gives them some form of insurance.
- The damage difference is definitely noticeable now, over a prolonged period of time.
Their vitals pressure has certainly gone down a noticeable amount. The affliction rate is still problematic, however. Removing blind access from them would go a long way, whilst still giving them more than noticeable amounts of hinder.eta: I think 100 curing per 10 seconds is too low. Either the amount cured should be increased a bit, or the time between curing ticks should be decreased 2-3 seconds.
Discord: Rey#1460
It becomes more problematic when you have instances such as Nekotai spit + beast spit allowing a potential +200 haemorrhage regardless of the state of the opponent prior to the form.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
Otherwise it'll be just like the old warrior calcise/dendroxin dilemma. Each monk will have to use that poison to be effective, and then the attrition build will have to be balanced around being able to use that poison, and it will suck when you don't.
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/5WBPabZl
I appreciate the amount of work that you're doing, so I hate to ask for anything urgently, but can we tone these numbers down quickly?
Edit: I missed some of the poison discussion. I don't think having the affs be poison affs is an issue by itself. I think being able to use alternative sources of poisons to increase the hemorrhaging rate is problematic though. This was designed around building on relatively weaker affs, which we have very few of post-overhaul, if you remove affs given by poisons then the pool becomes so small that each spec wouldn't be able to a remotely unique set. Also I think it's a much nicer meta to have a a class that does not want to spit mantakaya all the time. Variety is the spice of life etc.
Obviously that is still too much. I just am afraid of the admin choosing sol 1, which isn't a solution at all. If they want to go that route they need to turn the numbers down, or adjust the afflictions that boost hemorrhaging.
Thanks to all the people involved putting in work.
So, I haven't got an opportunity to fight any monks post-hemorrhaging release, but seemingly we're not to that ideal point yet, but I think we have a foundation for further change in both groups and solo. If you were following especially closely, you can see how this evolved from the initial idea of hemorrhaging, which was closer to a warrior slow and steady buildup, but was repetitive and not as 'monkish'.
For those interested in checking the numbers here's the formula I've been using
Where bonus_hemorrhaging is the amount of hemorrhaging per 5 forms and balance_time is the balance loss of each form. The 150 represents the 30 hemorrhaging you get just for entering a stance on someone, the -10 represents the cure rate which is 100 / 10sec or 10/sec. The whole thing is multiplied by 60 get the amount per minute.
Solution 1 gives us a cap of 2000 hemorrhaging a minute at 3.0 balance time and 1628 hemorrhaging a minute at 3.5s balance, both of which are obviously too much.
Solution 2 using 100 hemorrhaging per aff gives us 800 hemorrhaging a minute at 3.0 balance and 600 a minute at 3.5 bal.
Solution 3 by itself (because I forgot to include solution 1 in the report) at 50/aff reduces the possible max to 200 bonus a form which works out to a cap of 3.3k hemorrhaging a minute at 3.5s bal.
Solution 3 + 1 would work out to a cap of 1000 hemorrhaging at 3.0 balance and 771 hemorrhaging a minute at 3.5s.
This spreadsheet has much more detail if anyone's interested.
Edit: a word
Beast spit is not that problematic - it is once every 10s, which is basically every 3 forms. I can envoy Nekotai spit to only happen at the end of a form, so it removes Nekotai spit as a concern, but ur'life beast will still remain an outlier, if only because it is 2 hidden affs.
I think perhaps that there is a simpler way to solve all of this rather than your complicated formula, Wobou.
Just re-scale the hemorrhaging bonus:
1 aff = +10 hemorrhaging
2 affs = +70 hemorrhaging
3 affs = +150 hemorrhaging
all 4 affs = +250 hemorrhaging
All monks will be able to do at least 1 aff using beast spit - that gives them little more than a consolation prize with the re-scaled numbers (edit to add: even if this happens every form, it'll actually be lower hemorrhaging than the formula in Wobou's spreadsheet,or rather, it will be the "50" column in Wobou's spreadsheet - the idea is that if you're just triggering 1 aff every form, you're not going to make much progress). 2 affs will scale up significantly, and is still well within the possibility of any monk with a beast... but the number is lower than 1 aff of the current numbers. I think this will work to pull down the hemorrhaging building speed, as the logs show is needed. 3 affs and 4 affs are extremely difficult to achieve, and I believe should be rewarded with significant burst.
Speaking on the Nekotai set up, the four affs are all on different cure balances. Pressuring one cure is no problem of course, even if all spitting is taken out of the picture, and 2 is also perfectly possible with beast spit - it won't happen every form, for as long as it relies on beast spit. 3 is theoretically possible with beast spit... but it would most certainly require a burst of affliction that would only really be available from Surge onwards. 4 is all but impossible except in groups, or a dc'd opponent.
Edit to add: I think we'll want to make it one-of-each-cure-balance for all the monk specs, if any of them aren't at it yet. That will, at least, solve the ur'life beast problem.
Edit to add: Obviously, the numbers above can also be tweaked as and when needed, if it brings hemorrhaging numbers down too much.
Judging by the logs, I agree that the numbers need adjustment, but this change addreses the issue at a base level.
That'd be a fairly big nerf to beast powers for everyone who doesn't have spurs.
But really, if there was something that could preclude monks from using it as a prefix attack, I think it'd be overall good for monks because it wouldn't lock a top tier offense behind having a trained beast + ascendant powers.
Have dismount take balance.