Official Thread: Monk Overhaul is Live!

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  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,765 Transcendent
    edited April 2017
    I realize that I don't have logs to prove it; I'm just going off my own experience. And my experience is that hemorrhaging does absolutely nothing as a balancing factor in group combat. It's not the hemorrhaging that matters, nor do I believe anyone is actually trying to build it. It's the sub 3s balances for 6 affs, 1.5k damage, 1.5k bleeding (which can either be more health pressure or deadly mana pressure, your choice(catch22)). If we're hindering hemorrhaging...well, okay. But that doesn't matter in the context of group fights.

    EDIT: Idk. I don't know when 1.5k bleeding ever became acceptable, especially so quickly. What class besides Ninjakari and maybe CrowCaw spam pre-overhaul was able to do that?

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  • TarkenTarken Member Posts: 37 Capable
    For myself I don't try to build hemorrhaging in teams. There's enough bleed being thrown around currently that its mostly redundant. I have no idea what other monks are doing regarding that, though.
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    I think Wobou has already explained the part about the suggestions he has made thus far to lower the amount of flat bleed being given - I believe I've also repeated that a couple of times to draw attention to it. I think he's also explained the part about the Surge burst not being available all the time.

    I think the "weakness" of hemorrhaging building in groups, insofar that at this stage it is simply being eclipsed by the flat bleed, is something we should change. For now, pulling down the amount of flat, no-requirement bleed will be a good place to start, or to start geting some of that behind a choice between bleed or afflictions. Whether, and how, we can make hemorrhaging useful in groups rather than a "don't bother going for it" thing, can be tackled later.

  • CiaranCiaran Member Posts: 786 Mythical
    Wobou said:
    Just a quick note. It looks like the monk prone modifier gives +30% damage and bleeding. One really quick fix would be to nix that. Monks don't have a lot of tools to prone themselves so this is mostly a buff in groups which I don't think is needed.
    This is the insight that we need!  I definitely hadn't connected those dots.  It would be a good step to take for sure.

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  • SazSaz Member Posts: 130 Master
    Should a lock be possible in just one form?
    https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/8Wvj9lNx
     "Oh the year was 453CE, how I wish I was in Serenwilde now... aletter of marque come from the regent to the scummiest aethership I ever seen, gods damn them all...I was told we'd cruise the void for auronidion and dust, we'd fire no turrets, shed no tears.. now I'm a broken man on a Hallifax tier, the last of Saz's privateers."

    -Kilian
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,971 Transcendent
    I feel like they've already said "Please don't post a snippet, post an actual log."

    Am I misremembering?
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  • SazSaz Member Posts: 130 Master
    I had the rest, but mudlet crashed before I could paste however I asked a simple question, alone. This doesn't reflect anything further
     "Oh the year was 453CE, how I wish I was in Serenwilde now... aletter of marque come from the regent to the scummiest aethership I ever seen, gods damn them all...I was told we'd cruise the void for auronidion and dust, we'd fire no turrets, shed no tears.. now I'm a broken man on a Hallifax tier, the last of Saz's privateers."

    -Kilian
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,765 Transcendent
    edited April 2017
    How much more context does that snippet need, though?

    Just some easy critical thinking:

    Saz's karma blessings, if he had any, didn't proc.
    Saz was particularly unlucky.
    Saz was not shielded.
    Saz was probably not being hit by the monk beforehand.
    He was probably caught off guard.
    There's very few avenues to hinder that form once the monk gets the balance and clearance to do it.
    It's still pretty BS that a monk can do that in 1 form.

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  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,663 Transcendent
    edited April 2017
    That is a very dismissive statement.

    Full logs are definitely more useful, but log snippets can also show some problems. I agree with Saz that such a lock shouldn't be so easy to achieve. You can tell that he started on 0 hemorrhaging, so for all intents and purposes this was a 0-to-locked kind of thing. It also shows that it's not reliable, since it requires a viscanti burp to give the asthma. From what I can tell, two of the locking affs were given by poisons. There are already debates about whether or not poisons should be allowed on kata weapons because of how varied they can be.

    I think a good start would be to remove the affs given by dracnari and viscanti burps. They're not reliable enough to use in a strategy but when they do proc it can just result in a win harder situation.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,971 Transcendent
    edited April 2017
    The debates on the poisons thing have already gone to the Admin (there were Envoy talks on it before Envoys crashed and burned).  Report 1668 is one of them.

    Edit: Actually, 1650 is another one and the main one I was thinking of.
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  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    edited April 2017
    Lerad said:
    ...

    Regarding locks, Nekotai can currently also lock with Viscanti as more of a cheese thing (due to the RNG) than with any reliability. This is probably similar to the ur'life situation - a different effect that gives it value, but which doesn't give asthma, might be a better idea. But again, there might be concerns for other classes who use it for their own stuff.
    This isn't a new thing, and it's come up before.

    Generally speaking, regarding locks, this will end up rehashing what I've talked about regarding locks before the overhaul was done:

    Some general guidelines regarding Lusternian locks:

    1) Locks need to be done in a single form to be of much use - at least, that was the case of pre-overhaul implementation of ice-delay curing. This may or may not have changed with the addition of ice-delay curing for warriors - who would have a viable route to go for locks across multiple balances. For monks, however, since they don't have access to wounds, only very limited classes can trigger ice-delay curing with their specialisation abilities, and therefore take advantage of a multi-form lock set up. For those without those abilities (Nekotai would fall into that category), single form locks are the only things that are "viable", if they want to have locks at all.

    2) Single-form locks need to cost as much power, or more, than a green/gedulah attempt - again, this is the guideline from pre-overhaul, so it may have changed now, but generally speaking, I believe it should still hold true. The reason is because, without such a limit, a monk just needs to repeat that over and over until opponent runs out of power - end of fight right there.

    3) Single-form locks need to cost momentum - the more reliable, the more momentum. Pre-overhaul guideline blah blah. This ties into the design paradigm of burst classes: you get one chance, after which you get a window to take advantage of it, and the opponent gets that same window to try and stop your follow up (cure out). The cost of performing a lock is lowered output. Without momentum, this is harder to translate into the new system, but the equivalent would be something along the lines of reseting to base stance, because a monk can't go "backwards" from base into killer/surge, and there is no way to jump stances.

    As long as these three pre-overhaul guidelines hold true in a translated form, locks are fine.

    Guideline #2 is the most important, #3 is reasonable, but actually "optional", if you're just talking about the bare minimum required costs for a lock. Guideline #2, however, is also what makes locks something I argued against having (Nekotai, specifically). The only way to make sure locks are balanced is strict adherance to #2, and that was okay in the past because of the large amount of filler affs that could block or delay green/gedulah curing. That is simply not possible in the new meta - a green/gedulah is almost always going to break you out of a lock, since it requires 5 affs now, up from the past 3, and the aff pool has shrunk significantly.

    Locks are simply inefficient and unviable, even arguably pointless when they are balanced with guideline #2 implemented - and #2 must be implemented for it to be even remotely balanced.

    Design, therefore, should not revolve around locks. As a matter of fact, monks aren't designed around locks - they are designed around bleed. I can say with surety that monks doing a lock is not intended in design. If they can, well, the relevant envoy can decide whether they want to remove it or not - but I personally would not be making any effort to save the viability of a lock for my class at the expense of anything else, least of all poisons.

    Which brings me to a new point - everything after here is no longer a rehash of something I said.

    Poisons is not the problem with the log that Saz posted. Viscanti burb giving asthma is. This is also illustrated by my quote at the start of the post. Poisons for monks are poisons for monks - related to a debate about their aff rate, and unrelated to locks. That monks should have access to the range of affs given by poisons was a part of the design from the very beginning. The only question about poisons is the RNG variance it brings to their aff rate - Wobou believes a stable number is easier to balance, I (previously, and currently still sort of) believe that the RNG variance is the better route.

    There is zero logical rationale for any of the poison reports to be tied to a problem (if any) with monks doing locks.

    Finally, to cap off everything, Saz wasn't locked in that snippet. He's missing an ice-cured-prone. Without an ice-cured-prone, he can literally send:

    rub cleanse at me;apply ice to head;sip slush;eat dust focus asthma;

    And he'd be cured of everything except dysentery in 0s flat.

    This is why you need the full log instead of snippets. Does Avurekhos have a way of giving an ice-cured-prone at near or at the same time as that form? If he does, then, and only then, does this qualify as a lock to require the three guidelines I listed above. If not, it is not a lock, and can be cured out of via cleanse.

  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 1,584 Transcendent
    Lock is not possible in one form outside viscanti burp and yea everyone agrees that viscanti burp is maybe a bit too good. 

    So yea theres a few posts about viscanti burp being changed already.
  • YarithYarith Member Posts: 997 Mythical
    edited April 2017
    Can any other class in all of lusternia perform a lock solo with the removal of double-amp lock? 
    I do not think being able to lock solo, especially not within a single form, is a healthy criteria.
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  • ReylariReylari Member Posts: 367 Fabled
    edited April 2017
    Yarith said:
    I do not think being able to lock solo, especially not within a single form, is a healthy criteria.
    Was so weird when I first started playing here, and I heard people saying things like this... Coming from a game where about 90% of the classes can lock solo, when playing correctly, it was an odd change to adapt to. Also when said game has like 8 different forms of 'locks' that can all screw you over, that was another odd change.

    Still not used to it, honestly. Made it easy to gauge at a glance when you were in trouble.
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  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,663 Transcendent
    Are cleanse locks not locks?
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    I'm not sure if any other class can perform a lock - I'm not intending to defend or implement a lock for the monks, or more specifically the Nekotai, for any reason, because of the reasons I've already stated.

    Regardless of my personal wishes, if a lock must be implemented, then at the very least, the three guidelines I've listed will need to be considered, reviewed, implemented and/or added on. A lock that runs over multiple balances to implement, will, by definition, require ice-delay curing, otherwise, it won't be possible. Without access to ice-delay curing, the only possible lock is a single-form, or single-balance one.

    Warriors may or may not be able to lock over multiple balances as they currently stand. On theory, because of their access to wounds, the answer should be yes, but that's also dependent on their ability to give everything except the ice-cured components (damaged-throat and ice-cured-prone) on a single balance, otherwise, their target will simply cure out before they can lock in their lock.

    Similarly, if a monk wants to lock without a single-form lock, they need to have access to ice-delay through wounds or some unique ability effect, as well as the ability to at least give anorexia/asthma/slickness at the same time, or they will never be able to lock.

    Even with ice-delay cures, this multi-balance lock is purely theoretical. The concept being that the warrior/monk will afflict with damagedthroat + an ICP on the target, and then apply the other three lock-affs before the ice-delay resolves, to fully lock. At which point, the target can no longer apply ice (because slickness), and the warrior/monk can re-apply damagedthroat + ICP if their target had previously started to cure it. This window would require the warrior/monk to be on balance at the exact moment the ice-delay cure resolves, to reapply those ice-affs, otherwise, the target, having cured one of the lock affs, will simply stand/cleanse, or sip slush focus anorexia, and the lock is broken beyond salvage.

    If the above scenario is actually not possible, then you will need all 5 affs to be given at the same time (or without giving the target the window to enter any commands to cure between the affs being applied) for it to be a "lock" of any kind.

    As it is, based on the snippet that Saz provided, if Avurekhos can substitute his kick for one that sprawls+applies damagedleg (or any other ice-cured aff that prevents standing), then it becomes a full lock given in 1 form, which will then require at least 3p or 4p cost to be balanced, in addition to any other limiting restrictions, if needed.

    Given that you can't add a 3p/4p to the viscanti burp, you'll need to gate the specific combination that gives everything except asthma under the 3p/4p cost. Which means then that the combination will cost a disproportionate amount of power whether or not the user's viscanti burp fires (or even whether he has access to it).

    In other words, really, not worth it.

    Just replace the asthma from the viscanti burp with something else, unless there is another class that depends on it for some other reason that has been heretofore unmentioned.

  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    Falaeron said:
    Are cleanse locks not locks?
    A cleanselock does not need a power cost - because it takes no power to get out of a cleanselock. A cleanselock being repeated ad infinitum is still a balance concern, because it prevents the target from curing indefinitely, so the ability to repeat a reliable cleanselock should be hard-limited. This used to be done by applying guideline #3 to monks - though in general, all monk locks in the past have been full greenlocks rather than cleanselocks anyway.

    The entire point of guideline #2 is because the only way to get out of a greenlock is through green/gedulah, which has a power cost - and you simply cannot have a greenlock application cost less power than a green/gedulah, or the math will mean it's a zero counter kill (beyond refusing to fight).

  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 1,584 Transcendent
    Fix viscanti problem solved. Monks are not the only class where you can do stupid things with viscanti burp. Aeon/anorexia/asthma in a single balance any one. :dizzy:
  • YarithYarith Member Posts: 997 Mythical
    edited April 2017
    (If you're delivering aeon/anorexia you aren't dealing damage to trigger burp so it's not really a single balance soz not soz)
    Excepting super skull stellium, of course, and, perhaps, warrior aeon tarot.
    (I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)

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  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 1,584 Transcendent
    edited April 2017
    Spit anorexia, hit damage and aeonfield same time. Possibility of all three affs at once. Very random based but possible. Asthma is a bit too good to be a racial ability is my opinion in general.

    It's a single balance for all affs In the same way the monks is a single balance for all three. Monk has a greater chance to proc it though and both require a little set up. Building to the stance or activating aeon field. 
  • YarithYarith Member Posts: 997 Mythical
    edited April 2017
    That comparison is the apex of grasping at straws.
    (I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)

    == Professional Girl Gamer == 
    Yes I play games
    Yes I'm a girl
    get over it
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 1,584 Transcendent
    edited April 2017
    You want to keep asthma on viscanti then? I really thought that's the simplest fix for this. What would you suggest to this specific problem of viscanti causing locks?
  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,663 Transcendent
    Nobody is saying we shouldn't remove asthma from burp.
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 1,584 Transcendent
    Good we're all on the same page then. Easy fix and the mono lock problem is solved then.
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