Official Thread: Monk Overhaul is Live!

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  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    Ur'life being nerfed is possibly a good idea. Definitely better than nerfing Shofangi for it. Something that gives urlife value over normal beast but which isn't 3 dust affs might be good. Surely there are plenty of ways to achieve that. That said, I'm not sure if there's another class that makes use of, and relies on, urlife. If there's a concern, now would be a good time to raise it.

    The ice stack being strong is true for all monks, except maybe Nekotai currently, because we don't have an ice kick. Depending on a report, we might get something that's more or less equivalent to an ice kick, though, so it applies to Nekotai as well, in the future if not right now. Generally speaking, all ice affs are fairly strong, which means a proper ice stack will always be a quandary for the target. I'm not sure we want to take the ice stack away from the other monks, however - and with their ice kicks also locked behind Surge, they're not going to be giving 3 ice affs very often anyway - it'll only be available during their burst forms. If absolutely needed, there's always the option of gating the arm ice affs under more requirements, but I don't think that's needed yet. If you nerf that too much, Shofangi (and other ice based monks) will never be able to build their hemorrhaging.

    Regarding locks, Nekotai can currently also lock with Viscanti as more of a cheese thing (due to the RNG) than with any reliability. This is probably similar to the ur'life situation - a different effect that gives it value, but which doesn't give asthma, might be a better idea. But again, there might be concerns for other classes who use it for their own stuff.

  • CiaranCiaran Member Posts: 786 Mythical
    Well, I've finally caught one of the unicorn Ninjakari in a log, it was in a group fight so I can't vouch for exact numbers completely, but since they refuse to spar/test with me it's hard to find any other data.

    Avurekhos gives you the once over.
    [41:6]0.6|44r, 4077h, 3370m, 10677e, 8p xkp|beas|tea|equi|38/0|dmg_th dysent anorex dmg_RL paraly mutiRL stupid Sabnoc Rolsand Avurekhos -
    You feel something deep within you hemorrhage. You've increased your hemorrhaging by 30 for a total of 30 hemorrhaging.
    As Avurekhos starts his form, he quickly swings his jakari at you, drawing more blood.
    Avurekhos lashes out at your chest with a platinum-bladed Reaper chain, crushing it with a heavy thud and making breathing difficult.
    You notice that your sweat glands have begun to rapidly secrete a foul, oily substance.
    You are afflicted with slickness.
    Avurekhos lashes out at your gut with a platinum-bladed Reaper chain, rupturing it and leaving a gaping wound.
    A feeling of illness overwhelms you as your skin begins to jaundice.
    You are afflicted with damagedorgans.
    A magic aura flares around you and completely absorbs the damage.
    With a flick of his wrist, Avurekhos wraps a platinum-bladed Reaper chain around your gut and then jerks it off with a violent twist, causing the blood to spout from your mouth.
    You feel lightheaded as you begin losing blood internally.
    You are afflicted with internalbleeding.
    A magic aura flares around you and completely absorbs the damage.
    [41:7]0.6|44r, 3582h, 3370m, 10677e, 8p xkp|beas|tea|equi|1130/30|intern dmg_th dysent anorex dmg_or dmg_RL slickn paraly bleedi mutiRL stupid Sabnoc Rolsand Avurekhos - reprinted status

    38/0 means 38 bleed/0 hemorrhage

    So that's one combo where I get hit with 3 affs, 500 damage (would be more but RoA procced twice) and almost 1100 bleeding.
    To me you're forever the kick runner from 3 years ago, the guy who does domoths when no one is online and whines that he's got no competition, and the guy that use to only turn up to fights when the numbers favoured him.
  • CiaranCiaran Member Posts: 786 Mythical
    Further data:
    [36:6]0.47|45r, 5298h, 7194m, 9774e, 7p Bek|scro|bala|ice|tea|spar|heal|dust|111/60|Rolsand Avurekhos -
    You feel something deep within you hemorrhage. You've increased your hemorrhaging by 30 for a total of 90 hemorrhaging.
    Avurekhos's attack has extra power!
    Avurekhos snaps a platinum-bladed Reaper chain at your throat, crushing your windpipe.
    A sharp pain radiates from your throat.
    You are afflicted with damagedthroat.
    Avurekhos snaps a platinum-bladed Reaper chain at your gut, making you double over and spew bloody vomit.
    A sudden cramping and churning grips your intestines.
    You are afflicted with dysentery.
    The idea of eating is repulsive to you.
    You are afflicted with anorexia.
    With a quick spin, Avurekhos kicks you in the head with his left foot.
    [36:7]0.47|45r, 3965h, 7194m, 9774e, 7p Bek|scro|bala|ice|tea|spar|heal|dust|673/90|bleedi dmg_th dysent anorex Rolsand Avurekhos -

    Here we have 3 affs, ~550 bleed, and ~1300 damage.
    To me you're forever the kick runner from 3 years ago, the guy who does domoths when no one is online and whines that he's got no competition, and the guy that use to only turn up to fights when the numbers favoured him.
  • CiaranCiaran Member Posts: 786 Mythical
    Here was his first attack against me (sorry, just going through the log here):


    [30:3]0.29|45r, 8692h, 9852m, 10800e, 7p Bexk|tea|177/0|stupid -
    You feel something deep within you hemorrhage. You've increased your hemorrhaging by 30 for a total of 30 hemorrhaging.
    Avurekhos whips you with a platinum-bladed Reaper chain, lashing the skin from your chest.
    You notice that your sweat glands have begun to rapidly secrete a foul, oily substance.
    You are afflicted with slickness.
    Avurekhos whips you with a platinum-bladed Reaper chain, lashing the skin from your head.
    With a quick spin, Avurekhos kicks you in the lleg with his right foot.
    [30:4]0.29|45r, 7096h, 9852m, 10800e, 7p Bexk|tea|463/30|slickn stupid bleedi

    Here on the opener we have 1 aff, 1600 damage, and ~300 bleed.
    To me you're forever the kick runner from 3 years ago, the guy who does domoths when no one is online and whines that he's got no competition, and the guy that use to only turn up to fights when the numbers favoured him.
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 1,584 Transcendent
    The ice stack does seem more powerful than the dust stack overall from most monks. It does seem like most folks have ignored this just focusing on the dust stack because its more obviously felt in combat. Spaming you are blind and cant do that gets felt more. The dust is looking at getting fixed with the blind/para fix when ever that comes in.

    But the ice stack of skull/throat/organs combined with anorexia and slickness is just missing asthma for the green lock. A green locks fairly easy to achieve in group combat and even if it doesn't proc; damaged throat/skull combined with anorexia is exceptionally good for stopping a target healing. With boosting and bad luck monks that can give both skull/throat in the same combo can keep damaged throat on near indefinitely.
  • CiaranCiaran Member Posts: 786 Mythical
    Further data:

    [53:2]0.77|14r, 8884h, 10110m, 10300e, 8p mexkbp|beas|tea|spar|heal|allh|8/0|blindn paraly ablaze Tarken Enadonella [sys]0.007-
    Health -1820
    You feel something deep within you hemorrhage. You've increased your hemorrhaging by 60 for a total of 60 hemorrhaging.
    Your neck starts to throb.
    You are afflicted with burstvessels.
    As Tarken starts his form, he taps a few places on your body and you feel the bleeding flow free.
    Tarken shreds a black steel nekai across your gut in a vicious Angkai arc, painfully traumatizing your liver.
    A feeling of illness overwhelms you as your skin begins to jaundice.
    You are afflicted with damagedorgans.
    You suddenly feel lightheaded.
    You are afflicted with haemophilia.
    Tarken gracefully cuts a black steel nekai across your head with an Angkhai arc, slicing open your throat in three crimson streaks.
    A sharp pain radiates from your throat.
    You are afflicted with damagedthroat.
    You feel light headed and dizzy.
    You are afflicted with relapsing.
    A sense of extreme nausea washes over you.
    You are afflicted with vomiting.
    Twisting in a circle, Tarken plunges his left foot into your head.
    [53:4]0.77|14r, 7064h, 10110m, 10300e, 8p mexkbp|beas|tea|spar|heal|allh|1410/0|haemop vomiti dmg_th dmg_or blindn paraly bleedi relaps ablaze Tarken Enadonella - reprinted status
    You clear your mind, no longer preparing to act.

    So in summary, 1800 damage, 1400 bleed, and 6 affs in one combo.
    To me you're forever the kick runner from 3 years ago, the guy who does domoths when no one is online and whines that he's got no competition, and the guy that use to only turn up to fights when the numbers favoured him.
  • AramelAramel Member Posts: 202 Fabled
    I'm seeing similar numbers.

    The idea of putting something in your stomach sickens you.
    4599|44% 1688|21% 10905|100% 9 2788|185|52 _e_kbp-[Avurekhos][E]
    You must regain balance first.
    4599|44% 1688|21% 10905|100% 9 2788|185|52 _e_kbp-[Avurekhos][E]
    Tarken gives you the once over.
    4599|44% 1688|21% 10905|100% 9 2788|185|52 _e_kbp-[Avurekhos][E]
    You feel something deep within you hemorrhage. You've increased your hemorrhaging 
    by 105 for a total of 157 hemorrhaging.
    As Tarken starts his form, he focuses deep on the fury of the scorpion.
    As Tarken starts his form, he taps a few places on your body and you feel the 
    bleeding flow free.
    Tarken cuts a black steel nekai with an Angkhai arc into your left leg.
    The functionality of your left leg is hindered by physical injury.
    In the Angkai style, Tarken plunges a black steel nekai into your head, painfully 
    gouging out your eye.
    Colours fade and everything becomes dark and black.
    You are afflicted with blindness.
    You feel nauseous and your skin turns blotchy.
    You feel a tightening sensation grow in your lungs.
    Tarken suddenly burps a noxious fume at you.
    Twisting in a circle, Tarken plunges his left foot into your left leg.
    2281|21% 1688|21% 10905|100% 9 4167|185|0 _e_kbp-[Avurekhos][E](-2318h -23%)
    You clear your mind, no longer preparing to act.
    2281|21% 1688|21% 10905|100% 9 4167|185|0 _e_kbp-[Avurekhos][E]
    You fall to the ground as the last drops of life-giving blood drain out of your 
    body.
    You have been slain by Tarken.

    (The 2788 and 4167 are bleeding)
    (clan): Falmiis says, "Aramelise, verb, 1. adorn with many flowers."
  • IanirIanir Administrator, Moderator Posts: 535 Creator
    Yeah, we're aware. We're kind of 'all hands on deck' right now with Factions, but monks and server-side curing are my big focuses after all that's live.

    As a note, log snippets don't tell the whole story. If you can post full logs, it's a lot more helpful.
    Forum Avatar drawn by our lovely Isune.
  • CiaranCiaran Member Posts: 786 Mythical
    Well in my log you can see what affs I had and who was hitting me prior (in the prompt).

    I'll try to get cleaner logs from spars, but Ninjas for example won't spar me as of yet.
    To me you're forever the kick runner from 3 years ago, the guy who does domoths when no one is online and whines that he's got no competition, and the guy that use to only turn up to fights when the numbers favoured him.
  • AramelAramel Member Posts: 202 Fabled
    edited April 2017
    https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/EtbVH9Xr

    Earlier fight scrolled off, but this is the most recent one. It looks like I'm taking bleeding from Harbinger too since Glom is bleed-stack central, but the biggest contributor is still monk, which is rough because affs + stun impact ability to clot even when you do have mana (or to run away.) I suspect that if I could have cured haemo and clotted I would have lasted a bit longer, but even so mana is a finite resource under the circumstances. Bleed is a very strong mechanic as things are and here it was simply building at a rate that was impossible for me to keep up with.
    (clan): Falmiis says, "Aramelise, verb, 1. adorn with many flowers."
  • WobouWobou Member Posts: 138 Adept
    Ianir said:
    As a note, log snippets don't tell the whole story. If you can post full logs, it's a lot more helpful.
    I agree with this aspect. It's important to note that all monks are meant to explode a bit at surge (and to a lesser degree killer), and I believe all these snippets so far have been from a monk at surge. That said I think that these levels are too high even for the burst we're supposed to have at these stances.

    I don't think there's many special reports addressing damage but there's at least two special reports about flat bleed. All monks have access to 300 free flat bleed (or 150 bruising) at surge low which there's a report out to reduce by 1/2 or 1/3rd. Nekotai have a stance bonus for an additional 300 bleed which I believe Lerad wanted to change to cutting damage scaling on hemorrhaging (which may also be problematic but at a different end of the fight). If both changes go through nekotai in particular will lose about 450 free bleeding in the beginning of fights at surge low. Even with that though I think both the bleeding and damage numbers shown here are too high.
  • CiaranCiaran Member Posts: 786 Mythical
    edited April 2017
    I think the bleed, the damage, and the afflictions are all too high.

    Why do monks get the best of everything (Vitals pressure/Afflictions/Damage/Escapability/Dodge)?

    It's very frustrating to have to try to play against this when all monks have to do is use two macros.  Scent-chase and their preset PK loop.

    Edit: Oh yeah, and Ninjas get chainyank, also...

    Edit2: OH yeahhh, and they don't have to use power, so if something ever goes wrong, they can just serpent and lol at whatever you were trying to do.
    To me you're forever the kick runner from 3 years ago, the guy who does domoths when no one is online and whines that he's got no competition, and the guy that use to only turn up to fights when the numbers favoured him.
  • TaerTaer Member Posts: 95 Adept
    edited April 2017
    My main concern is that they are far outdamaging even my princessfarewell damage chord and Cantors are supposed to be the damage spec. That's at 12/12 Div & 13/13 Fire AND they're giving a whole bunch of afflictions to boot.
    email: [email protected]
    Discord: Pharanyx#4357
  • TaerTaer Member Posts: 95 Adept
    Scent-chase and their preset PK bash loop.
    email: [email protected]
    Discord: Pharanyx#4357
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 1,584 Transcendent
    One little thing looking at the logs is I don't think folks are accounting for the harbringer song in their clot calculations so they are clotting a bit slow. Its not a big deal but it could be an extra tick of bleed on you I guess.

    For Aramels logs:
    You took: 
    (-492h -5%) from tarkens first combo
    (-1426h -14%) from enas flay
    (-1003h -10%) from tarkens second combo
    You bleed 2254 health. 
    and
    Then You bleed 3309 health. from a combo of mine and tarkens bleed stack.
    Then you took 
    (-463h -5%) from tarkens third combo
    (-1326h -13%) from a vomiting tick.
    -542h was tarkens final blow.

    Vast majority of the damage was from not clotting from that log. Not saying that was going to be an easy task though.
  • WobouWobou Member Posts: 138 Adept
    Ciaran said:
    I think the bleed, the damage, and the afflictions are all too high.

    Why do monks get the best of everything (Vitals pressure/Afflictions/Damage/Escapability/Dodge)?

    It's very frustrating to have to try to play against this when all monks have to do is use two macros.  Scent-chase and their preset PK loop.

    Edit: Oh yeah, and Ninjas get chainyank, also...

    Edit2: OH yeahhh, and they don't have to use power, so if something ever goes wrong, they can just serpent and lol at whatever you were trying to do.
    Outside of chain yank and scissorflip (which bards also have) monks don't impact the group dynamic in ways other classes can. We are in-room killers and that for the most part is our role. Given that and how hemorrhaging works I don't think it's a problem that our affliction output is high. I agree that our affliction output should not be high at the same time that our damage and bleeding are high. You should have to willfully choose to attack with basic attacks if you want the good damage.

    Saying things like "All they need is scent-and-go and a macro" is somewhat dismissive and unhelpful. I believe you have your dproph offense automated, but does my saying that "All Ciaran needs is scent-and-go and his dproph scripts" tell us anything useful about dproph's strength or just that you were able to automate something? I think nearly every class could be automated by someone with the will to do so, that doesn't really indicate anything about relative strength.

    Monks strictly speaking don't have to use power but realistically we do to build hemorrhaging, so once damage and flat bleed are toned down there will be more incentive to boost.  We also have (at least in the shofangi) a million times the reason to spend power as we did before. I use power all the time in both solo and group fights.

    Ianir said he's going to deal with monks after factions so I'm also not sure why you're talking like nothing is going to be done about this.
  • CiaranCiaran Member Posts: 786 Mythical
    edited April 2017
    Wobou said:
    Ciaran said:
    I think the bleed, the damage, and the afflictions are all too high.

    Why do monks get the best of everything (Vitals pressure/Afflictions/Damage/Escapability/Dodge)?

    It's very frustrating to have to try to play against this when all monks have to do is use two macros.  Scent-chase and their preset PK loop.

    Edit: Oh yeah, and Ninjas get chainyank, also...

    Edit2: OH yeahhh, and they don't have to use power, so if something ever goes wrong, they can just serpent and lol at whatever you were trying to do.

    Saying things like "All they need is scent-and-go and a macro" is somewhat dismissive and unhelpful. I believe you have your dproph offense automated, but does my saying that "All Ciaran needs is scent-and-go and his dproph scripts" tell us anything useful about dproph's strength or just that you were able to automate something? I think nearly every class could be automated by someone with the will to do so, that doesn't really indicate anything about relative strength.
    No, because if that's all I did I'd totally suck. On the other hand if I was a monk I'd roll people.

    Also, am I not allowed to speak out about a class that's completely broken?  I'm here in the game playing against it.  Examining the current state of monks will have an impact on the future revisions of monks, and pointing out that all they have to do is have two macros is worth mentioning.  The class is way too easy, and needs to be basically cut in half to be in line with anything else that's in the game currently.

    Literally, you could give them half as much damage, half as much bleed, half as much afflicting, half as much hemo, cut their dodge by 50%, make their contort/somersault 50% longer than bards, and they'd still be a strong class.

    I hope the revisions bring monks into line.
    To me you're forever the kick runner from 3 years ago, the guy who does domoths when no one is online and whines that he's got no competition, and the guy that use to only turn up to fights when the numbers favoured him.
  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,663 Transcendent
    edited April 2017
    So a few things.

    1) Burst: Classes that have burst as a mechanic tend to require individual build-up of afflictions or other requirements on the target. This is different for monks. The majority of the burst comes from their own stances. The problem lies in the counterplay available to such mechanics. Traditional burst classes have windows when people can play defensively for a moment to deal with the majority of the burst. Monks require constant active hindering to really slow down. Additionally, with hemorrhaging monks have now become both burst AND attrition classes.

    2) Bleeding: The whole point of introducing hemorrhaging was that monks no longer needed to overwhelm people with bleeding from the get-go. Instead, they should build up hemorrhaging and over time the bleeding becomes so high that they can be instakilled, or can no longer endure the constant health pressure. In this sense, the amount of bleeding given now only serves as extra vital pressure. Bleeding is clotted away at 25 bleeding per 60 mana. This means that a bleeding hit of 1k will cost 2400 mana to fully clot away. If ignored, this is an additional 1k damage every 5.5 seconds. This by itself is an insane amount of vital pressure when you consider how quickly and constantly this is being applied.

    3) Damage: The damage that monks output is comparable to mage staff. This combined with the bleeding they give means they have an insane amount of vital pressure. Simply put, no other class can compare to the raw vital damage that monks can give.

    4) Defence: This is not as obvious since people don't die to it directly, but this part is also very vital. The monk kit is simply one of the best defences in the game. Forget everything else for a minute and just consider acrobatics. This is a problem that is shared with bards, but with contort, somersault and dodging as well as a bunch of other mainly defensive utility skills, they are already one of the hardest classes to keep down. Add onto that stance bonuses like the center stance which passively blocks one affliction. You know the burst your class was going for by putting the monk under aeon? Well, you better hope that your window of opportunity doesn't fall on the center stance, roughly every 15 seconds. And then add onto that Harmony/Stealth which bring their own defensive/evasive tools. I daresay the only other classes that can even compare to such a defence is healing guardians.

    Any one of the above points would make monks a strong class. There are four of them.
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 1,584 Transcendent
    To fair most classes can be amazingly effective with two macros in group combat. So that's not really a good yard stick to be measuring stuff with.

    Melders can have a meld macro and a damage macro and thats them contributing a ton to the fight.  Same for bards with one perfectfifth macro and one damage chord macro.

    Not saying they cant do more but I'd take a melder and a bard on my team over monks in the current meta. I mean ideally I'd want a melder, a bard, a wiccan and a monk but well cant have everything.
  • WobouWobou Member Posts: 138 Adept
    Ciaran said:
    Also, am I not allowed to speak out about a class that's completely broken?  I'm here in the game playing against it.  Examining the current state of monks will have an impact on the future revisions of monks, and pointing out that all they have to do is have two macros is worth mentioning.  The class is way too easy, and needs to be basically cut in half to be in line with anything else that's in the game currently.


    I hope the revisions bring monks into line.
    You're allowed to talk about anything you want. What I've seen (at least for these past few pages) is that no one disagrees with you that damage and bleeding should go down and only I (maybe) disagree that afflicting should go down. I think the logs are useful, although full logs are more useful like Ianir said. But to me saying "Why do they get the best of everything" comes off as whining, there isn't really a constructive change you can take from that.


    Literally, you could give them half as much damage, half as much bleed, half as much afflicting, half as much hemo, cut their dodge by 50%, make their contort/somersault 50% longer than bards, and they'd still be a strong class.

    If every form was like these surge forms that are being posted then I'd agree. The reality is that pre-surge I do about 1.2k damage when going for afflictions (last time I tested via masochism) and around 150-200 bleed, and 2-4 afflictions (so 3 average). I don't think I'd be strong if I was doing 600 damage, 75-100 bleed and 1-2 afflictions and then for surge and killer did 700 damage and 2-3 afflictions and 250 bleeding for surge/killer. Things need to be toned down for sure but saying we should cut everything by half is silly.

    @Falaeron:

    1. I agree that we've kept a part of the old momentum issues, a monk's stance matters more than the target's status for determining what a form can do, with the exception of how hemorrhaging is built. I do think there's a bit more counterplay than you're suggesting though. For example if someone had center/surge lines highlighted and shielded that forces the monk to either waste their surge/killer awesomeness on a raze form or spend 3p to raze and not lose an arm action. Not that I'm saying you should feel compelled to be shielding constantly against a monk but certain classes already play defensively until they have a good window (many guardians) and for them I think that's a valid tactic.
    2. I agree. I don't think monks should not be able to produce a large amount of flat bleeding at all, but it should definitely not be for free.
    3. I don't agree that no other class can pressure vitals like monks but I agree that it is too much.
    4. I agree, nerf acrobatics. Pay no mind to psymet. >.>
  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,663 Transcendent
    edited April 2017
    Halving is a bit extreme, but warriors aren't too much better than the halved numbers you bring up. And you know what? They are still viable.
  • WobouWobou Member Posts: 138 Adept
    Falaeron said:
    Halving is a bit extreme, but warriors aren't too much better than the halved numbers you bring up.
    In most cases I do less damage than a comparably runed AL as it is now, and would obviously do half as much if it were halved. You're also ignoring wounds in that comparison. Our wound-like mechanic relies on afflictions on the target so as soon as you are no longer pressuring cure balances then most bonus hemorrhage building goes away in many situations which is designed to be thing that actually builds.
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    Generally speaking, I was previously of the opinion that monk vitals pressure is already in-line, but obviously as more logs come in, I'm reviewing and updating my own opinions based on them. The more logs that can be posted, the better and easier it is to see what needs to be tweaked, so thanks for those who are posting logs, still.

    The Nekotai surge forms are generally speaking around the ballpark figures Ciaran posts: 1.5k or more damage, 1.5k or less bleed, 4-6 affs. The damage and aff component are consistent across all monks, but the Nekotai surge bleed is generally speaking higher than other monks because of the way sprongma works. I think there's nothing inherently wrong with a kick that is meant to give bleeding, and sprongma has a long list of requirements that moderate and gate its effects, but what Wobou says about there needing to be more of a choice between bleeding and affs does ring true. The bleed numbers given by sprongma is fine, especially so for 1v1, but, in conjunction with the aff rate, there's a valid argument there we can emphasize more of a if-you-do-this, you-can't-get-that choice.

    General bleeding for monks at Surge will be addressed by Wobou's mantekarrstance report, so I'm not worried about that.

    What I'd like to perhaps look at further, in light of all these logs, are what are the ways we can propose to tweak sprongma further to make that bleed-or-aff choice clearer - for example, adding an additional mechanic to the sprongma kick where afflictions are randomly cured when the bonus bleed is triggered - the more triggered, the more cured, etc. That continues to maintain sprongma as the go-to kick for bursting bleed (vitals), but imposes an affliction momentum cost. This would angle it for groups, when vitals pressure is king (and preferable to slowly building hemorrhaging), and afflictions are easier to build due to ally help, and would be a better choice than affliction kicks into hemorrhaging kills. Basically, change when a Nekotai will choose to use it - and tie that choice to the user's goal.

    Of course, underpinning all of the above is also my general agreement with Wobou that (other than the vitals numbers), the aff rate is reasonable for the way the class is designed, on theory.

    The main reason I agree with Wobou on this, is because the only passive affliction ANY monk has is psymet pheromones. And maybe harmony peace-aura. Not 100% sure if harmony has other passive affs, but I think that's it. Their impact in groups not-withstanding, monks don't even have the tools to build any form of hemorrhaging unless their active affliction rate is higher than the opponent's cure rate. This is why I continue to push for the current poisons status quo - at the lower stances, 2 affs per form is definitely below the cure rate. 3 would roughly equalize (or be slightly higher, depending on the monk's latency), while 4 would outstrip cure rate - and, most importantly, only by giving 4 affs will the monk be able to hit again while there is 1 leftover aff (we're talking dust/steam stack here):

    0s -> gives 4 affs
    0s -> target cures 1st, 3 left.
    1.5s -> target cures 2nd, 2 left.
    3s -> target cures 3rd, 1 left.
    3.5s -> monk recovers balance
    4.5s -> target cures all.

    With 3 affs, even though the monk is effectively beating cure balance, he still can't build any hemorrhaging, because the target has no affs when the monk recovers balance. Only with 4 affs on the same cure can he even start making progress - the rate at which hemorrhaging is cured completely negates it consistently if the bonus is not proc'd - and when it is proc'd, the monk has to consistently keep up that same amount of pressure, to build it at a constant rate. There is no way to accelerate hemorrhaging.

    At the higher stances, specifically Surge/Killer, monks can usually put out more than enough afflictions to ensure the target is loaded with affs when they hit again, for building hemorrhaging. Although with focus-curing, it's entirely possible to avoid getting hit by hemorrhaging bonuses even with that burst of affs, but that's a different problem. Given that Surge/Killer can't be indefinitely repeated, I agree with Wobou that the burst aff rate at surge is fine - like he says, it's not something that is happening every form.

    The only thing I disagree with him on is the lower stance aff rate - I feel that 2-4 (rng dependent) is better, while he generally feels that something more stable, like 3 flat, is easier to balance for. He does have a point, to be fair - that it is easier to balance for. And while I was previously opposed to poisons being effectively removed from the monk repertoire at lower stances, I'm starting to think of ways in which it can work - moving some kicks down to pre-Surge, but giving up poisons was (still is) something I opposed, but as I mull over the dynamics of this, I'm coming around to see that it might at least be something we can consider.

    Naturally, removing poisons at the higher stances isn't really something I think is needed.

  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,765 Transcendent
    Hemorrhaging as a mechanic is nil for group  game balance until you heavily reduce the upfront bleed a monk can dish out. I thought that was the intent in the first place.

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  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    edited April 2017
    Yes, and monk bleeding in general had been reduced when hemorrhaging came out - sprongma, if we're talking about a specific example, is halved already. What we're looking at is whether it is still too much - and like I mentioned:

    Lerad said:

    ...sprongma has a long list of requirements that moderate and gate its effects...

    That moderates the bleed values it gives for 1v1. In groups, I have a separate proposal that prevents it from eclipsing hemorrhaging - to prevent multiple sprongmas in groups from leading to a no-hemorrhaging instakill.

    All of the above, alongside its values being already halved, is why I think it's fine to keep sprongma as a route to vitals pressure. With the new logs, and reading what Wobou has posted, I now additionally also agree with Wobou's caveat that going that vitals route should also cost some effectiveness in the normal (affs->hemorrhaging) route, and that's where my suggestion of curing afflictions when sprongma's bonus bleed is (edit to correct typo:) cured triggered is in line with that.

  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,663 Transcendent
    I'll let you discount the 500 max you can get from Sprongma. People would still be getting 1k+ bleeding on top of the damage/affs. That is still way too high.
  • JaspetJaspet Member Posts: 59 Apprentice
    What makes me most interested about Monk is how entirely active the class is.

    If I spend 10s largely disabled, my Demesne still hits for everything. If a Shadowdancer spends 10s largely disabled, their Fae will still be doing something to contribute to their team's offense. If a Harbinger does, their songs are still working their magic. If a Monk spends 10s largely disabled, they get to stare at the ground.

    That seems really interesting, and the idea of being 100% based on your own personal momentum seems exciting. Any amount of hindering, however slight, is going to set you back.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,765 Transcendent
    Jaspet said:
    What makes me most interested about Monk is how entirely active the class is.

    If I spend 10s largely disabled, my Demesne still hits for everything. If a Shadowdancer spends 10s largely disabled, their Fae will still be doing something to contribute to their team's offense. If a Harbinger does, their songs are still working their magic. If a Monk spends 10s largely disabled, they get to stare at the ground.

    That seems really interesting, and the idea of being 100% based on your own personal momentum seems exciting. Any amount of hindering, however slight, is going to set you back.
    That would seem like the intent, right? But right now, hindering monks doesn't really do much. I can alternate whisper and shieldstun, and people can spam entanglements, but very little seems to stop Tarken, for example, from still doing his entire form every less than 3 seconds.

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  • TaerTaer Member Posts: 95 Adept
    As frustrating as it can be, the Tarken's of the game are really needed. He's a good combatant and it really requires people like this to expose balance issues within the game so that they might be addressed.
    email: [email protected]
    Discord: Pharanyx#4357
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    Falaeron said:
    I'll let you discount the 500 max you can get from Sprongma. People would still be getting 1k+ bleeding on top of the damage/affs. That is still way too high.
    As Wobou mentioned, he's already got a report addressing mantekarr, and I have another that's aimed at changing the Nekotai twistlow bleed bonus from being a flat amount, to lower the bleed given.

    Maligorn said:
    Jaspet said:
    What makes me most interested about Monk is how entirely active the class is.

    If I spend 10s largely disabled, my Demesne still hits for everything. If a Shadowdancer spends 10s largely disabled, their Fae will still be doing something to contribute to their team's offense. If a Harbinger does, their songs are still working their magic. If a Monk spends 10s largely disabled, they get to stare at the ground.

    That seems really interesting, and the idea of being 100% based on your own personal momentum seems exciting. Any amount of hindering, however slight, is going to set you back.
    That would seem like the intent, right? But right now, hindering monks doesn't really do much. I can alternate whisper and shieldstun, and people can spam entanglements, but very little seems to stop Tarken, for example, from still doing his entire form every less than 3 seconds.
    ?

    You just need to catch him on-balance once, or even with less balance time than your shieldstun's stun once, to hinder him and start slowing down his offense. Based on numbers, that should be enough - balance-chasing 3.5s forms builds hemorrhaging at a rate of 0. (A monk will give you 90 hemorrhaging in 10.5s, and you cure 100 hemorrhaging every 10s).

    Boosting and affliction bonuses are the only things that allow a monk to progress toward their goal, and where the former takes power, the latter requires unhindered, back-to-back balance chasing forms to stack afflictions, which goes back to being sensitive to any kind of hinder - and you could even say cannot be achieved without boosting. Anything that prevents a monk from balance chasing, for even half a second, eats into the advantages that boosting or the affliction bonuses give.

    If boosting speed is too fast, and negates the impact hinder has on monks, we can have a re-look at it, with the logs to back it up, of course, because based on the design of the numbers I'm not sure how alternating whispers and shieldstun does not hinder the monk.

    At the moment, boosting speeds up monks by quite a hefty bit, which lets them have a better chance of proccing both the hemorrhaging aff bonuses, as well as increasing their hemorrhaging rate so that they aren't making a flat 0 progress over time. Power for monk is best used to stay at Surge/Killer to repeat the bursts of affliction and vitals pressure - even then, it's not possible to repeat Surge/Killer for more than a handful of rounds, or the monk runs out of power to instakill, and only the first Surge will proc the bonuses of Twist stance. The other strategical uses of power will be to get to Surge/Killer faster by boosting the low stance forms, which will also ensure the target has some leftover hemorrhaging and affs from speeding up the early stances, though that strategy will further limit how many rounds of repeating Surge/Killer a monk can do before he runs out of power. 

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