Newbie Quest Discussion

Estarra

ANNOUNCE NEWS #2869
Date: 11/17/2018 at 18:29
From: Estarra the Eternal
To  : Everyone
Subj: Newbie Quest Testing

We are testing newbie areas that will be recommended instead of Newton Caverns
as the first quests that a newbie might attempt. It is basically called the
Pools of Remembrance. You enter the clear pool to go back to the past to learn a
little history as well as questing or the murky pool which does the same thing
only but is a much darker story line. Once you start one quest, you cannot do
the other until that quest is completed (i.e., you have to complete the honour
of the clear pool before attempting the murky pool quest). Both quests are
heavily laden with hints.

Anyway, if you are so inclined, we would love to have you test these quests for
us. Currently these newbie areas are open to all players so anyone may attempt
the quests but later will be restricted to newbie-only (so if you want the
honours, go for them now). They work best when only one person is doing the
quest in each quest phase (there are 3 phases in each quest) so keep that in
mind. However, we also want to know what a true newbie would experience so if
you would like to create a newbie to test how difficult bashing is, that would
be terrific too--I have been told that Newton is too easy so this should be a
bit harder for newbies (and we'll probably up Newton levels correspondingly if
these pools work out well for newbies).

Anyway, I'll open a forum thread for discussion (but feel free to email
support@lusternia.com if you prefer not to use forums). What we are looking for
are:

1) Bugs, obviously
2) Idea of difficulty level for newbies
3) Storyline feedback
4) Any recommendations/comments you care to share

The pools are currently located next to Newton Caverns. (This is temporary
placement, they will be moved to their permanent location later.)

Portius

Glad you opened this up for us to nab the honors. Are you guys planning on extending the Newton access artifact for oldbies to get them later on, or is this the only chance at it?

Shaddus

Is this going to be the starting intro? Or an alternative to Newton? I'm  hoping you mean to redo the former and not the latter, because Newton isn't the problem.

One thing I will say is that the refugees/zombies need a faster reset time. 

Xenthos

So far (I just started looking at it), it looks like an alternative to Newton that is tied directly into Lusternia's lore, with broadcasts from Globglob and the Fall of Shallamar.

Estarra

Reduced reset time on zombies/refugees.

Ayisdra

A few comments:

Respawn times are too slow when more than 1 person is working on it. Either: If someone has completed the step/turned in a piece have the mob respawn at that moment. Or Increase the amount of mobs that are around (but keeping the amount you need to do)

While I understand that the quest was made to only be done by one person a time, I don't think this is something that should be in a newbie quest. There should be enough mobs for a few people to complete the quest a time. Also, counters should be personal, rather than global.

On the second section of the quest within Gloriana Forest, it is not possible for both sides to be worked on as you need to kill NPCS the other requires. This should be fixed in someway as you can easily undo the work someone has done by killing the group someone is helping.

For the Celest/Eulan side - you get a total of 5 honours. The 4 Key honours I feel shouldn't be honours.  As most quests end with the honours - having honour lines in the middle of things might confuse newbies. The four Key ones just feel out of place to me.

As a introduction to quests, there probably should be some part with hidden objects and interacting with them.

Personal counters for everything, instead global counters so people can't steal progress. I know this isn't a fact in most quests, but a newbie's first look into questing might be put off when they see that it can easily be stolen.

A random side thoughts:

Given that Gorgogs still exist outside this Past Itecia, some newbies may think the Gorgogs on Present Itecia may be the same difficulty. Maybe add somesort of CONSIDER tip (or whatever gives newbies a good idea of how strong something is compared to their level/skills)

Maybe a bit about Celest and Glomdoring at least and how their Present selves may not like a person entering their boundaries (in case a newbie wants to see what Gloriana became)

Estarra

Thanks for the feedback! We'll consider everything you guys suggest, though of course not everything can be done. I will note that it will be unusual for newbies to be competing in these quests, though I understand right now that it feels that way because a lot of you are testing at the same time--and thank you for that!

Xenthos

Let's not hard-code the system to say that Glomdoring is the present self of Gloriana though!  That's something that even in Glomdoring we have discussions about from time to time.  I'm sure there's a better way to phrase it if you're going to do a warning like that, though I'm not sure it's necessary.  But a "Warning: The Glomdoring Forest now stands where the Gloriana once did, and it may be a much grimmer place..." could work, I guess?

I did bug the honours line discrepancy thing, Ayisdra.  Apparently it's supposed to act like Epic Honours quests (where when you get the last line it wipes out all the other lines), but because Epic Honours have been bugged for years so that they don't always remove the old lines (see people like Deichtine, Rolsand, Anita, etc with the org epic lines), this one's doing the same thing.

Edit: I will say that the biggest remaining issue with this chain I see is the Gloriana Forest part, because of the need to actively work one side against the other.  It's possible to get stuck in that for hours (I managed to do it with Ixion the first time because he was killing the centaur I needed to move on every time I got the item the centaur needed).  But he couldn't progress either, because I had already killed the council-person he was trying to get.  Stalemate!  I was thinking it might be better for the Gloriana zone to be a mirror area (you've done this before with other areas), the good side gets one and the bad side gets the other.  Everything is otherwise exactly the same, you just never end up directly working against someone or trying to get something that is already dead because the other side killed it.

Siam

This is an amazing alternative to Newton Caverns! Thank you. I will definitely suggest going this route for newbies who are interested in lore/histories, which is undoubtedly one of the biggest assets of Lusternia as a game -  I was drawn and stayed with the game because of the lore.

May I know the level cap for this map/quest area? If possible, can we extend it to level 50? Some newbies who powerfarm early might want to come back for it after they get settled into the game.

edit:  

Currently doing the Lich side of the quest and just a feedback - it seems that there aren't any honours lines given at all when progressing through the various stages unlike the 'good' side where you get honours for the keys and the savior. Considering that the good side and the bad of the quest involves doing similar things, can honours line be granted for completing the bad side too? That's a nice motivation for newbies who like questing rewards, I think.

Shaddus

Xenthos said:

Let's not hard-code the system to say that Glomdoring is the present self of Gloriana though!  That's something that even in Glomdoring we have discussions about from time to time.  I'm sure there's a better way to phrase it if you're going to do a warning like that, though I'm not sure it's necessary.  But a "Warning: The Glomdoring Forest now stands where the Gloriana once did, and it may be a much grimmer place..." could work, I guess?

Don't take this as a personal attack, but it's kinda not necessary imo. I get that Glomdoring has its own RP about what it is, and it isn't, but this is a newbie area.  The difference between "Gloriana is now Glomdoring!" and "Glomdoring is now where Gloriana used to be!" is miniscule to anyone who isn't actually part of Glomdoring, or at least anyone interested in heavy Glomdoring rp.

Xenthos

Shaddus said:

Xenthos said:

Let's not hard-code the system to say that Glomdoring is the present self of Gloriana though!  That's something that even in Glomdoring we have discussions about from time to time.  I'm sure there's a better way to phrase it if you're going to do a warning like that, though I'm not sure it's necessary.  But a "Warning: The Glomdoring Forest now stands where the Gloriana once did, and it may be a much grimmer place..." could work, I guess?

Don't take this as a personal attack, but it's kinda not necessary imo. I get that Glomdoring has its own RP about what it is, and it isn't, but this is a newbie area.  The difference between "Gloriana is now Glomdoring!" and "Glomdoring is now where Gloriana used to be!" is miniscule to anyone who isn't actually part of Glomdoring, or at least anyone interested in heavy Glomdoring rp.

If the difference is minuscule to you, why would you bother objecting to the one that's grayer on behalf of the people to whom it is a larger difference?  I certainly don't take it as a personal attack, but I am pretty puzzled why you'd argue against it if there is such a small difference in your mind.

Or there could just not be a warning at all, of course, as is the current case, then you don't have to worry about the phrasing at all.

Ayisdra

Xenthos said:

Shaddus said:

Xenthos said:

Let's not hard-code the system to say that Glomdoring is the present self of Gloriana though!  That's something that even in Glomdoring we have discussions about from time to time.  I'm sure there's a better way to phrase it if you're going to do a warning like that, though I'm not sure it's necessary.  But a "Warning: The Glomdoring Forest now stands where the Gloriana once did, and it may be a much grimmer place..." could work, I guess?

Don't take this as a personal attack, but it's kinda not necessary imo. I get that Glomdoring has its own RP about what it is, and it isn't, but this is a newbie area.  The difference between "Gloriana is now Glomdoring!" and "Glomdoring is now where Gloriana used to be!" is miniscule to anyone who isn't actually part of Glomdoring, or at least anyone interested in heavy Glomdoring rp.

If the difference is minuscule to you, why would you bother objecting to the one that's grayer on behalf of the people to whom it is a larger difference?  I certainly don't take it as a personal attack, but I am pretty puzzled why you'd argue against it if there is such a small difference in your mind.

Or there could just not be a warning at all, of course, as is the current case, then you don't have to worry about the phrasing at all.

The Website's Glomdoring page says "Sprawled across the south-eastern hills, Glomdoring Forest is a blight on the land. Once called Gloriana Forest, it was a place of light and beauty..." Also, the Histories specifically state it. "Gloriana is now known as the Glomdoring Forest and none who enter ever return..." (Fall of the Holy Celestine Empire)

Xenthos

Ayisdra said:

Xenthos said:

Shaddus said:

Xenthos said:

Let's not hard-code the system to say that Glomdoring is the present self of Gloriana though!  That's something that even in Glomdoring we have discussions about from time to time.  I'm sure there's a better way to phrase it if you're going to do a warning like that, though I'm not sure it's necessary.  But a "Warning: The Glomdoring Forest now stands where the Gloriana once did, and it may be a much grimmer place..." could work, I guess?

Don't take this as a personal attack, but it's kinda not necessary imo. I get that Glomdoring has its own RP about what it is, and it isn't, but this is a newbie area.  The difference between "Gloriana is now Glomdoring!" and "Glomdoring is now where Gloriana used to be!" is miniscule to anyone who isn't actually part of Glomdoring, or at least anyone interested in heavy Glomdoring rp.

If the difference is minuscule to you, why would you bother objecting to the one that's grayer on behalf of the people to whom it is a larger difference?  I certainly don't take it as a personal attack, but I am pretty puzzled why you'd argue against it if there is such a small difference in your mind.

Or there could just not be a warning at all, of course, as is the current case, then you don't have to worry about the phrasing at all.

The Website's Glomdoring page says "Sprawled across the south-eastern hills, Glomdoring Forest is a blight on the land. Once called Gloriana Forest, it was a place of light and beauty..." Also, the Histories specifically state it. "Gloriana is now known as the Glomdoring Forest and none who enter ever return..." (Fall of the Holy Celestine Empire)

The histories are clearly referring to a different time period (because, um, people who enter it in the Now actually do return).  And while I can't speak to the website's note, in-game "help blight" returns no references to Glomdoring (and thus I stand by the request that such a note be left a little vague, if implemented-- the note is intended to reference to a current period of time, not some historical period in which all perished and before the Commune itself even existed).

It's possible that the website blurb could use updating as well; it certainly wasn't "recently revived," at this point. :P

Shaddus

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against changing the blurb, or putting in the distinction. Can you explain the difference, @Xenthos, using a way that someone who is new to Lusternia and Glomdoring would understand?

Xenthos

Shaddus said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against changing the blurb, or putting in the distinction. Can you explain the difference, @Xenthos, using a way that someone who is new to Lusternia and Glomdoring would understand?

I'm not sure entirely what you mean by explaining the difference?  Much of Glomdoring considers the Commune's history to start with Viravain bringing it to back to life.  There are some "bridge" characters (Brennan, Rowena, for example) who were able to convince her to let them stay alive, but she was pretty clearly intending to start it anew at that point (they had to put in effort to convince her that they were worth keeping).

In that light, you'd say that the Gloriana came before, and perished.  It was not strong enough to survive what befell it.  A new Commune was created by Lady Viravain on its corpse, a stronger / harsher one better able to prevail.  In nature it happens all the time (one thing falls / dies, something else spreads in to take over, consume what's left, and attempt to thrive in its place).

As far as wording goes, it's basically just slight word choice differences to avoid stating "They are the same thing" and instead go more with "they occupy the same space."  That leaves it open for interpretation (a newbie is then welcome to think "That means they are the same thing" if they want).  A little vagueness in this stuff is good just because it does give room for discussion / interaction / changes in thinking as time goes on, and that's traditionally how Estarra has implemented Glomdoring things in general for a while now!  I would similarly object to a hard-coded note that says "Gloriana died and Glomdoring is a completely different forest" as well, because it's the same issue, just in the opposite direction.  Leave it up to the players to explore that, imo!

Shaddus

Xenthos said:

Shaddus said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against changing the blurb, or putting in the distinction. Can you explain the difference, @Xenthos, using a way that someone who is new to Lusternia and Glomdoring would understand?

Much of Glomdoring considers the Commune's history to start with Viravain bringing it to back to life.  

That's my point, though. We have to gear this towards people who aren't of Glomdoring, don't even know who Viravain is, and don't know what the Wyrd is. I'd suggest that if you feel really strongly about the neutrality, urge Estarra to put in place some monuments for each org. You can touch one to see a pre-written blurb about each org based  on that org's outlook. Serenwilde's can have their monument mention the tainted Glomdoring, for instance, while Glomdoring's can have their outlook on themselves as well as the weakness of Serenwilde. Magnagora's can talk about how they rebuilt themselves stronger after the Taint descended on them, while Celest's can talk about how Mag is a city of despicable, cantankerous and filthy wretches.

Xenthos

Shaddus said:

Xenthos said:

Shaddus said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against changing the blurb, or putting in the distinction. Can you explain the difference, @Xenthos, using a way that someone who is new to Lusternia and Glomdoring would understand?

Much of Glomdoring considers the Commune's history to start with Viravain bringing it to back to life.  

That's my point, though. We have to gear this towards people who aren't of Glomdoring, don't even know who Viravain is, and don't know what the Wyrd is. I'd suggest that if you feel really strongly about the neutrality, urge Estarra to put in place some monuments for each org. You can touch one to see a pre-written blurb about each org based  on that org's outlook. Serenwilde's can have their monument mention the tainted Glomdoring, for instance, while Glomdoring's can have their outlook on themselves as well as the weakness of Serenwilde. Magnagora's can talk about how they rebuilt themselves stronger after the Taint descended on them, while Celest's can talk about how Mag is a city of despicable, cantankerous and filthy wretches.

I agree with being geared towards people universally, sure.  I'm not suggesting that it mention Viravain, the history involved therein, or anything like that (way too much information for people who aren't even in Glomdoring), simply that if it's going to say something that something should be a little vague.  Getting smacked with a large paragraph about what Glomdoring is about and its view of itself as a warning note would be a bit out of place (and unfair for every other org that doesn't get something, too).

Monuments with a little org-written definition of themselves could be useful though, and probably a better fit than an admin-crafted "warning note".  I'm just not sure how they'd fit in this little history area, unless it's a set of monument-rooms next to where the Pools end up when they get final positioning?

Moi

My BIG ISSUE is that unless you already have an orgbix or have someone on the outside to teleport to, you can't leave the area once you've entered. Which, given that you can get stuck waiting hours for someone else to finish their side so that you can complete your own, is A Big Problem. I would suggest just... letting people do TELEPORT NEXUS to leave instead of making people jump through hoops.

Ayisdra said:

Maybe a bit about Celest and Glomdoring at least and how their Present selves may not like a person entering their boundaries (in case a newbie wants to see what Gloriana became)

As far as Glomdoring/Celest goes, I think it's really better for the orgs to handle that. The worst that can happen is that the org says "no" and then the newbie gets the idea that Org X is Full of Rude Jerks, which is... not the worst possible outcome in the world? I mean it isn't ideal, but it's only going to happen to newbies from enemy organizations, or ones who are already RP-ing being anti-(insert org here) enough that someone notices. And the more common outcome is a neat RP experience where they get a tour of another org.

Anita

I really enjoyed the storyline for both sides, and the areas being current (but in the past for this).

My only real concern is still the respawn times and how the two sides interact. Earlier on when there was no one aroud -- or someone had recently completed one side, the 'bad' mobs had spawned in the Gloriana part, and I had to kill them to help the centuars, but the centaurs never spawned. I had the items and..not one to give them to. I understand that respawn times need to be a thing and probably not as short as the ones currently in Newton Caverns, but I do feel like the need to be shortned somewhat considerably for newbies, if more than one newbie is going to be working on the quests at the same time - and before someone says that they won't, you know there will be a case a few times where there will be. I know we're not pouring out the ears for newbies, but there is times when we've a few about together! 

Xenthos

Anita said:

I really enjoyed the storyline for both sides, and the areas being current (but in the past for this).

My only real concern is still the respawn times and how the two sides interact. Earlier on when there was no one aroud -- or someone had recently completed one side, the 'bad' mobs had spawned in the Gloriana part, and I had to kill them to help the centuars, but the centaurs never spawned. I had the items and..not one to give them to. I understand that respawn times need to be a thing and probably not as short as the ones currently in Newton Caverns, but I do feel like the need to be shortned somewhat considerably for newbies, if more than one newbie is going to be working on the quests at the same time - and before someone says that they won't, you know there will be a case a few times where there will be. I know we're not pouring out the ears for newbies, but there is times when we've a few about together! 

The bats/beetles/spiders/wasps have shortened respawn timers, they come back pretty quickly.  The centaurs/council/statues are still the full respawn time, so there are some synchronization issues there.  Would be nice if they were brought in line with the bats/beetles/wasps, just don't reset them when they're currently "gathered" (at their destination point) and should be good.

Hegemone

I don't know for sure but it looks like it takes an hour for the gorgogs to reset? I had to leave before I got a chance to try and influence them again for the 'dark' side of the quest. Can this be shortened?

Shaddus

Not to sound ungrateful, because this new area seems really amazing, but...Is this the Haven's response to what is wrong with the "intro" for newbies?

Estarra

Shaddus said:

Not to sound ungrateful, because this new area seems really amazing, but...Is this the Haven's response to what is wrong with the "intro" for newbies?

It's a response to complaints that there wasn't enough lore, etc. for the newbie area. I still do not believe the actual "intro" should be long and drawn out like it was in the old Shallamar intro. It should show you just the very basic commands so you can enter the game as quickly as possible. Trying to teach you a little bit of everything, just makes most people get overwhelmed, and putting lore in the intro is mostly forgotten. Anyway, there is a new House of Fates intro which I believe at least the guides have tested, and there will be a task system to help teach you basics that will replace the lamp.

Shaddus

You've really outdone yourself on the new areas, I don't want to disparage those in the least. The people working on this should be commended.


I just feel like the very beginning of the game, where you're inside the Portal with the orc, is fairly condescending and feels like a sales pitch more than anything else. Every time I see "free gift", I can't help but to read it in the same tone you might imagine someone telling you that if you order now, you'll win a set of free steak knives.

I'm all for getting new people in, teaching them the basics, and throwing them at the Basin of Life. I feel like we're giving a bad first impression from the first five minutes of play.

Estarra

Shaddus said:

You've really outdone yourself on the new areas, I don't want to disparage those in the least. The people working on this should be commended.


I just feel like the very beginning of the game, where you're inside the Portal with the orc, is fairly condescending and feels like a sales pitch more than anything else. Every time I see "free gift", I can't help but to read it in the same tone you might imagine someone telling you that if you order now, you'll win a set of free steak knives.

I'm all for getting new people in, teaching them the basics, and throwing them at the Basin of Life. I feel like we're giving a bad first impression from the first five minutes of play.

Like I said, that's being replaced with the House of Fates intro that some guides have tested!

Maligorn

House of Fates :ooooooo

Gristnach

I've just completed aiding the Lich Lord during the time of the Taint Wars. It was a lot of fun, if not a bit straightforward. As a newer player, it was fun being steeped in some of the lore. The added flavor is fun and may help new players decide more about where they want to go after the intro--I know I wasn't sure. 

As for mechanics, I think the last phase had two rough patches:
1. The row boat--it wasn't obvious when you hit the islands. When you hit that beach, you should get the HINT telling you to get OUT of the boat.
2. The influencing of the gorgogs--there are so many of them, all moving, and bunching in certain rooms, that it was difficult to keep track of which I had influenced and which I hadn't. As a new player, I had the most trouble understanding the influencing system, and I can easily see someone else not realizing they've already influenced one and getting frustrated as to why it's not working.

Thanks for letting us explore it. I'm looking forward to helping the other side now.  

Nelras

The new quest looks great so far.

I have just found one small bug that likely won't affect any actual new players.

In Gloriana, when trying to save the colt trapped in a bubble, it is possible to kill the harpies before they move towards him. If you do, it looks something like this:

As you snap a golden whip of the pious with a negligent flick of your wrist, paeans of heavenly
verse cry out from where a black-feathered harpy's flesh has been scathed by holy light.
The final blow proves too much for a black-feathered harpy, who expires, pitifully.
You have slain a black-feathered harpy.
A glittering blue stone drops to the ground.
[06:47:39.982][10800h, 9800m, 12300e, 10p][e k]
A black-feathered harpy scowls before flapping off to the northeast.

Furthermore, the corpse appears in the room with the colt, not the room where the harpy was killed. The stone still drops where you would expect though.

Deichtine

Gristnach said:

I've just completed aiding the Lich Lord during the time of the Taint Wars. It was a lot of fun, if not a bit straightforward. As a newer player, it was fun being steeped in some of the lore. The added flavor is fun and may help new players decide more about where they want to go after the intro--I know I wasn't sure. 

As for mechanics, I think the last phase had two rough patches:
1. The row boat--it wasn't obvious when you hit the islands. When you hit that beach, you should get the HINT telling you to get OUT of the boat.
2. The influencing of the gorgogs--there are so many of them, all moving, and bunching in certain rooms, that it was difficult to keep track of which I had influenced and which I hadn't. As a new player, I had the most trouble understanding the influencing system, and I can easily see someone else not realizing they've already influenced one and getting frustrated as to why it's not working.

Thanks for letting us explore it. I'm looking forward to helping the other side now.  

Good idea.

HINT: Stop talking to that gorgog you already begged from it! Find another!

Stratas

One thing I noticed re: influencing is that if you walk into a room and there's something available to be influenced for the part of the quest you're on, a hint pops up telling you to influence it (i.e. when you're collecting water stones and there's an uninfluenced aquamage, you get a hint saying 'try INFLUENCE AQUAMAGE WITH BEGGING'. But only if they're uninfluenced). It was the only thing that made the mage influencing side of Arysian Isles tolerable. The influence reset timer needs to be massively shortened though. It nearly killed it for me on both sides, I could see a newbie just qq'ing if they ran into it.

Devora

Mechanics

• Not a bug, but this might happen to newbies: If you get impatient during phase 2 of murky and, for example, kill all the bats _before_ killing Tahki, you inadvertently summon Maroc who attacks you. Even if you kill Tahki and feed Maroc all the bats, Maroc will keep attacking you. While you take Maroc back to the Vizier, and all through the final scenes of Phase 2, even after Brennan beheads Maroc, Maroc keeps attacking. This isn't ideal for immersion and could kill a weaker newbie (Maroc can break shields)

Difficulty for newbies

• Hints are very well done
• Some mobs require cures, like ice for pyromancers, that newbies might not know about beforehand. Is there a way for newbies to easily leave the area to pick up the necessary supplies?
• The 2nd quest phase seemed a too easy, more tedious version of the first phase fetch and deliver quest. Are there alternative tasks that are similarly simple but add some variety or strategy?
• The last phase is super fun though. I wanna keep making newbie characters so I can play Mastermind forever

Storyline

• The cast of characters and special objects is pretty large. I've read a lot of lore and I still had to remind myself several times, "Wait, who are all these people and how do they know each other?" 
• Maybe a lore resource could be available on the website so interested players could have a better idea of the characters' histories, motivations, etc. I understand there's the Presidio papers, the HCE Chronicles etc, but I mean something shorter and focused on the characters from the quests. Rushdam for instance gets just 2 oblique mentions in the Chronicles
• Might also be useful to have a brief intro, just 3-5 sentences, as you fall through the Pool, describing what time period the quests take place in, for example, and what the Taint is and who Kethuru (otherwise known as the Great One) is, to give people at least a vague context. The info I got from greeting people almost always assumed that I knew these basics