Justice question

NeelaNeela Member Posts: 62 Capable
So why are we rescheduling and redoing Justice instead of just axing/DQing the person who violated the rules? And then redoing the picks that had him in it?

Also why is the rescheduled event open to the person who violated the rules and caused the reschedule in the first place?
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  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 8,139 Transcendent
    Because (and this is just an opinion), I don't think said person meant to violate the rules intentionally. Resolutions aren't exactly transparent in how they work, nor can you remove the buff (so far as I know) once you use it.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • NeelaNeela Member Posts: 62 Capable

    These resolutions can be activated on demand using RESOLUTIONS COMPLETE <resolution>, and once activated they last 24 hours. After the bonus expires, you can start working towards the bonus again...

    So he picked the 24 hour span where Justice was going to take place, to activate his Resolution, a thing you have to do intentionally? And the devs didn't catch this until he was already a finalist? And the devs also don't have a method of stripping this bonus? And easy way to tell if it was intentional would be to just look at the duration? Right? If it was more than 16 hours gone, probably not a cheating attempt because they'd have likely slept between and would have good reason to have forgotten. If it was like 1 hour? 2? Something less than 6. Then maybe probably don't give that person the benefit of the doubt. I don't know what the duration was. I can't judge that right now. But seriously.
  • DysDys Member Posts: 662 Fabled
    Where are the rules? I've looked in the HELP, googled and failed. I know I've seen them before.
  • NeelaNeela Member Posts: 62 Capable

    JUSTICE
    -------
    Allowed:
     + Abilities from the Influence and Dramatics skillsets.
     + General healing (bromides, sparkleberry, etc).
     + Tradeskill items (including enchantment, tinkering, etc).
     + Any preparatory or permanent buffs (karma blessings, racial benefits, etc)
         acquired before your debate.
     + Passive ego regeneration and max ego increases from skills using the buff
         system (i.e. shows on BODYSCAN)
     + Discerning in the Discernment.

    Disallowed:
     + Any activated abilities from skillsets not listed above (roulade, laetitia,
         etc).
     + Passive ego regeneration and max ego increases from skills outside the buff
         system from sources not listed above (i.e. does not show on BODYSCAN)
     + Any action or skill that fully refreshes you (refresh, trueheal, etc).
     + Shrine abilities.
     + Beasts.
     + Abilities that could cause the person to be unable to debate, e.g. through triggering masochism. This includes the use of Tinkering music boxes.
     + Wondermasks


    From, 17.3.2 Ascension Rules
  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    edited February 23
    The file aptly labeled HELP ASCENSION RULES. Avechna also made sure that everyone -knew- these were the listed rules and asked all the participants to agree to them.

    Avechna, the Avenger says, "Are there any questions about the rules as they are listed? If found in violation once we begin, it will count as a loss."

    Except when they don't.

  • DysDys Member Posts: 662 Fabled
    Ta. So resolutions don't count as a preparatory buff then? Is that because it doesn't show on bodyscan? 

    I guess there's some appropriateness that justice has some basic legalese to get your head round. There's no way it was intentional cheating because everyone gets checked.
  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    I don't think everybody got checked, because that got overlooked and was only found once he made the finals. Sure it might not be intentional, but the rules are quite clear. Resolutions do not show up on Bodyscan, which is why if people did get  checked, it wasn't noticed.
  • NeelaNeela Member Posts: 62 Capable
    edited February 24
    The way I view it. They violated the rules, they knew from the start that there were to be no other buffs than the ones that show on bodyscan. The rules were posted and confirmed by Avechna. It's not the admins duty to bend over backwards to allow someone who definitively and clearly, whether knowingly on their end or not, cheated to compete. It sets a really bad taste in my mouth, to have an entire event cancelled, the effort of the people who did compete legitimately wiped out, and the timeframe for the event changed. Because of one person cheating(Again, they were, whether knowingly or not). And that person still being allowed to compete, even though the violated the rules. That again, leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

    It's essentially like if Lance Armstrong were in the Tour De France, and tested positive for steroids. Rather than wiping the placing, removing the records, and etc. They instead forced the entire event to wait a week while Lance pissed the steroids out of his system, because he claimed he didn't know about them. In what other competitive event, do you see something like that happening? This is our Tour De France, ascension is our once yearly supposedly fair competitive event. And this sours it.

    We're not gonna do anything about them, because they didn't know any better. Ignorance is no excuse. They could have done their due diligence and checked over their Defs and seen that they had that active. Asked a mod to wipe it. They could have done their due diligence. But they didn't. And thus they cheated, knowingly or not. And now they're getting a do over. Because fuck the established rules.

    And beyond that it sets a very dangerous precedent. If I cheat in an event next ascension, knowingly or unknowingly, will I get a tap on the nose, and a do over? What about the next person, the next person, and so on? Will they get their do over? Because in fairness now that this ruling has gone through like this. They should.

    I'd honestly say, rather than running the full event next Saturday. To make this right keep the brackets as they are. Do a limited do-over of the top bracket. Same order but move the first person to fight the cheater forward one, as if giving them a bye. Then once that bracket is done, proceed to the losers bracket as normal. Anyone who cannot come to the event, because there will be those who get fucked by work schedules, gets another reward, either true favor of Estarra or Avechna, or credits, or something suitable the devs can come up with. Those who end up in brackets with people who cannot show up, get a bye. And so on. That would go a long way to re-establishing this as a fair competition that values all of the competitors who play by the rules.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 8,139 Transcendent
    Except that he activated the buff before Avechna explained the rules, and he probably didn't know it wasn't in the buff system. 

    A better question is, why aren't resolutions in the buff system?
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • NeelaNeela Member Posts: 62 Capable
    edited February 24
    That's a stupidly silly distinction. EDIT: Let me clarify.

    The rules are posted. WELL before the event.
    Avechna was confirming everyone had read and was following the rules that had been posted.
    They decided to agree either without checking(Doing their due diligence), or with intention to use that buff because they felt it had a competitive advantage that was within the rules. But didn't check to confirm it was okay(Didn't do their due diligence here either.)

    To your second attempt at deflection.
    The rules clearly state it must show up in Bodyscan.
    It shows up in Def but not Bodyscan.
    Ergo buff should obviously not be allowed.

    Ignorance is no excuse under most laws.

    Why are they getting a do over?

    Again, to quote myself.

    And beyond that it sets a very dangerous precedent. If I cheat in an event next ascension, knowingly or unknowingly, will I get a tap on the nose, and a do over? What about the next person, the next person, and so on? Will they get their do over? Because in fairness now that this ruling has gone through like this. They should.
  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    edited February 24
    The rules were always posted and don't really require explanation. Also, the resolutions do not state they give a buff weight, thus it should be taken that they are outside of buff system. Not to mention a quick bodyscan of yourself would also prove this. But resolutions aren't new, and it's been a known thing that they weren't apart of the buff weight system.

    What I fail to understand, is that in any other competitive event, violations of the rules you agree to mean disqualification, intentional or not. Someone made reference it makes sense for there to be 'legalese' for the Justice, so let's pretend this is a legal system. This violation would be perjury. Nobody here, thus far, is saying that it was an intentional violation, but what we have been saying is that this is silly to screw over so many people that ABIDED BY the rules, and we're okay with this?
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 8,139 Transcendent
    Neela said:
    That's a stupidly silly distinction.

    Again, to quote myself.

    And beyond that it sets a very dangerous precedent. If I cheat in an event next ascension, knowingly or unknowingly, will I get a tap on the nose, and a do over? What about the next person, the next person, and so on? Will they get their do over? Because in fairness now that this ruling has gone through like this. They should.
    Yes, it does. However, if there's one thing I've learned in Lusternia, it's that the admin doesn't really care about precedent. They tend to throw precedent out the window on a whim, and they have no qualms about making decisions on said whim, which have no basis in fairness or, once again, precedent. They tend to take whatever actions they feel prudent at the time. Not only that, but they don't technically owe anyone "fairness", nor do they owe it to anyone to keep to precedent. How you feel about or deal with this bolded line is up to you.

    I'm not saying I agree or disagree with how the admin have dealt with this. All I'll say is this: I don't believe Steingrim intended to break the rules. 
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • NeelaNeela Member Posts: 62 Capable
    *blinks*

    So you're reasoning with social nihilism? You're excusing horrible handling of a situation because, "It's already so bad, this isn't any worse?" Nothing matters in the ruling is what you are saying. And we shouldn't care, and should sit down as all the players who participated in this event are proverbially speaking, lined up and collectively dicked because one person forgot to check their buffs?

    That's even sillier than I thought... 


  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 8,139 Transcendent
    Neela said:
    *blinks*

    So you're reasoning with social nihilism? You're excusing horrible handling of a situation because, "It's already so bad, this isn't any worse?" Nothing matters in the ruling is what you are saying. And we shouldn't care, and should sit down as all the players who participated in this event are proverbially speaking, lined up and collectively dicked because one person forgot to check their buffs?

    That's even sillier than I thought... 


    I guess that's one way to put it. I prefer "bitching in the past hasn't changed anything, bitching in the future won't change anything, so I'm not raising my blood pressure because of it."
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    @Shaddus I understand what you're saying, because I've taken that exact stance and mindset before. We, as a playerbase, got asked why people were leaving - this is a prime example of why. To echo their thoughts, "Poor decisions made by the team." was the most common I heard as they typed in retire. The other most common thing was combat imbalances and the lack of ever addressing them, which got lumped into the first statement.

    I'm really trying to enjoy the game, but Ascension has always put me in a poor mood, because it never feels like an actual competition. There has been no real display of talent so far, just who can have the biggest army (except Knowledge that is purely individual). Normally I say Knowledge, Justice, and Beauty are the most 'fair' but I sadly have to dock that down to just Knowledge and Beauty.
  • ShangoShango Member Posts: 156 Capable
    Just...shelve this for now, please? We'll attend to a re-do of Justice next week. Done deal. Steingrim should voluntarily avoid it if it was really that much of an issue, else make doubly sure he does NOT tap the Resolution (or other barred benefit) during the proceedings, and we'll get on with our lives.

    There will be more instances, just don't forget this one. Patience, and see if things don't improve.
  • SteingrimSteingrim Member Posts: 1,127 Mythical
    @Neela,

    You could have sent me a tell or pinged me here and asked for an explanation.

    I stand by my actions. I do get why people would think that clearly it was against the rules.

    I did of course purposely activate the resolution as has been done with that resolution and with others since resolutions and seal trials have existed. 

    This is the rule:  + Passive ego regeneration and max ego increases from skills outside the buff
         system from sources not listed above (i.e. does not show on BODYSCAN)

    Note the 'from skills'. This is a rule about skill usage. Why is that important? It dates back to the overhaul years, where not all skills had been converted over. I think Penumbra was brought up back then and there were some funky Illuminati skills that were outside among others for a long time. For me that was a 'plug the overhaul problem' rule.

    I thought and still do that rule exists to counter class and org imbalances not available to everyone. Resolutions are open to all. Yes, there's a cost for resolutions, but that's hardly unusual for a seal contest.  

    You tell Wyrden Ravager Tarken, "Come to Gaudiguch. I'll give you the title of Grand Moth."
    Eyes peering skywards as he thinks, Ironbeard the Magnanimous says to Sksez, "Welll, on my gooD lis *hic* t, we have....Stei *hic* ng *hic* rim.U..Xypherv....Luu *hic* hghaigh *hic* hhe....Breandryn....."
  • NeelaNeela Member Posts: 62 Capable
    @Steingrim
    My issue is not with you. It's with how this was handled. It wasn't a question of your morality or choices, it was a question of the actions of the others involved in handling this situation.

    Answer honestly: In what competitive environment would this be acceptable? To reschedule an event that had been announced ahead of time, because of the actions of one person. Exclude yourself from this. If you were reading about this and didn't know what Lusternia was, what would you think? Would you find it a respectable and competitive thing? Would it be a healthy thing for the competition within that field for the biggest competitive event to be rescheduled because of the actions of one person?
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 8,139 Transcendent
    Neela said:
    @Steingrim
    My issue is not with you. It's with how this was handled. It wasn't a question of your morality or choices, it was a question of the actions of the others involved in handling this situation.

    Answer honestly: In what competitive environment would this be acceptable? To reschedule an event that had been announced ahead of time, because of the actions of one person. Exclude yourself from this. If you were reading about this and didn't know what Lusternia was, what would you think? Would you find it a respectable and competitive thing? Would it be a healthy thing for the competition within that field for the biggest competitive event to be rescheduled because of the actions of one person?
    If I were to guess, I'm pretty sure that the admin probably argued some valid points and decided to reschedule because they felt that Steingrim's error was unintentional, and that they felt he deserved another chance, but didn't know how to remove his buff. So they rescheduled for a time when they felt like he could try again with the buff gone.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • ArixArix Member Posts: 1,331 Mythical
    To be fair, this  isn't the first time some used an exploit to win a major event that went unpunished, though the handling has been different each of those times
  • SteingrimSteingrim Member Posts: 1,127 Mythical
    Neela said:
    @Steingrim
    My issue is not with you. It's with how this was handled. It wasn't a question of your morality or choices, it was a question of the actions of the others involved in handling this situation.

    Answer honestly: In what competitive environment would this be acceptable? To reschedule an event that had been announced ahead of time, because of the actions of one person. Exclude yourself from this. If you were reading about this and didn't know what Lusternia was, what would you think? Would you find it a respectable and competitive thing? Would it be a healthy thing for the competition within that field for the biggest competitive event to be rescheduled because of the actions of one person?

    It isn't the first seal even to be rescheduled. I remember a war seal that was pushed.

    My experience is in most competitive environments they go by the letter of the rule with a strong emphasis at making the wording right. Which I still believe I was in compliance with. But even when there's millions at stake there are gray areas that even people who professionally interpret rules struggle over.

    @Xenthos or someone else may remember but I have a perhaps false memory of what was and was not a skill being a key part of a previous ruling.

    If all of this had been parsed faster I suspect the resolution would have been faster, but we can't expect both, for them to be fair, to fully discuss things and to be quick about it. By the time a bit had passed it seemed like some of the contenders had left. Do you think they would be happy to return and find out it had been held in their absence?

    I passed my suggestion onto the Admin and they seemed to take them into consideration and then reached their decisions.
    You tell Wyrden Ravager Tarken, "Come to Gaudiguch. I'll give you the title of Grand Moth."
    Eyes peering skywards as he thinks, Ironbeard the Magnanimous says to Sksez, "Welll, on my gooD lis *hic* t, we have....Stei *hic* ng *hic* rim.U..Xypherv....Luu *hic* hghaigh *hic* hhe....Breandryn....."
  • SteingrimSteingrim Member Posts: 1,127 Mythical
    Shaddus said:
    If I were to guess, I'm pretty sure that the admin probably argued some valid points and decided to reschedule because they felt that Steingrim's error was unintentional, and that they felt he deserved another chance, but didn't know how to remove his buff. So they rescheduled for a time when they felt like he could try again with the buff gone.
    Just for completeness, I also, recall it being a problem for buffs to be removed in Justice Seal contests of the past. However, in this case it was removed pretty early on at some point. I believe it was when we were mostly still gathered in the cave.
    You tell Wyrden Ravager Tarken, "Come to Gaudiguch. I'll give you the title of Grand Moth."
    Eyes peering skywards as he thinks, Ironbeard the Magnanimous says to Sksez, "Welll, on my gooD lis *hic* t, we have....Stei *hic* ng *hic* rim.U..Xypherv....Luu *hic* hghaigh *hic* hhe....Breandryn....."
  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    People were leaving because of the almost hour long break in between matches while they investigated the resolution and talked it over.
  • SteingrimSteingrim Member Posts: 1,127 Mythical
    Lycidas said:
    People were leaving because of the almost hour long break in between matches while they investigated the resolution and talked it over.
    I assume you're just clarifying, if there was some other point I missed it.
    You tell Wyrden Ravager Tarken, "Come to Gaudiguch. I'll give you the title of Grand Moth."
    Eyes peering skywards as he thinks, Ironbeard the Magnanimous says to Sksez, "Welll, on my gooD lis *hic* t, we have....Stei *hic* ng *hic* rim.U..Xypherv....Luu *hic* hghaigh *hic* hhe....Breandryn....."
  • MaestraMaestra Member Posts: 19 Novice
    Anyone who thinks Steingrim is a cheater doesn't know Steingrim. One of the straightest shooters you'll meet. I'm stating this because it's relevant. A straight-up DQ would only be appropriate in this case if he intentionally broke the rules, and as it isn't clear that either part of that criterion is satisfied, this is clearly the most appropriate decision. As long as I've played Lusty I've seen people win all sorts of challenges by interpreting the rules in ways I didn't (honestly, I frequently look at artefacts or promo items and think "Why the heck would I pay money for that?". Then somebody explains it to me and I be like daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn, TAKE MY MONEY).

    So just chill. He'll either win again or he won't. In the meantime, you can compare the Lusternia Justice Seal with Lance Armstrong if you like, but all you'll do is drive up the price of popcorn.
  • NeelaNeela Member Posts: 62 Capable
    edited February 24
    Objectively, he cheated, whether he thinks it's legitimate or not.

    He had an advantage that I know of two other competitors considering and then discarding as likely breaking the rules.

    Did he clarify it? Or did he just do it?

    Did he do due diligence, or did he gain a competitive advantage that was in anyway in a gray area of the rules?

    If there was any possible contention it should have been clarified and asked at the start, when he agreed to the rules, which can be interpretted as forbidding the thing which he was actively using to gain an advantage over his competition.

    More than that,
    There's already two other rules dealing with skills that would forbid those same skills he was interpreting as what that rule was referring too.
  • SteingrimSteingrim Member Posts: 1,127 Mythical
    edited February 24
    @Estarra and @Orael to make it easier to find. This will I hope be the last I need to say on this. Sorry for the wall of text, but I am disinclined to keep this up much longer.
    I wrote some stuff was going to post it, but, I think I'm just going to go back and break down the rule (yes, I fully get why people think Resolutions are obviously included). You are simply incorrect.

    Now did some admin feel the rules covered Resolutions? Not a mind-reader, but I would be surprised if  some did not. Is it likely that some admin reviewing the rules believed the current rules covered Resolutions? Probably? 

    Now frankly, I don't remember if my conversation was public or private and I don't remember the context other than it had to do with skills being skills and things that were not skills, simply were not...skills. My memory was that it seemed a bit silly to me, but that, the admin was clear there was some justification. There are other things like that, things you'd assume as a player and the admin will tell you no. For instance, my custom x with resetting, is not an artifact. No idea why, but an admiin said so when I issued it.

    But when Resolutions were introduced they were brought up on the forums specifically asking that they'd disabled during world games.

    1. The admin were silent on that thread.
    2. Those player in that thread was clearly saying they thought under the current rules they were allowed. I do not see a single voice in that thread saying, "No it is covered by the rules." Both the rules and this thread are linked below.

    Next, the rule you're all pointing to pre-dates the release of Resolutions and was known by the player-base when some asked for it to be exempted from certain seals, including Justice, still not a one saying it was already covered by the rules.

    Sure people can twist this if they want, but let me be clear, Ascension has always been as I've been told over and over meant to test you to use every possible allowed resource and strategy available. Some people have been planning for this for actual years.

    Anyone can go on line and see the rule actually predates resolutions here.


    The rules, current section:

    Disallowed:
     + Any activated abilities from skillsets not listed above (roulade, laetitia,
         etc).
     + Passive ego regeneration and max ego increases from skills outside the buff
         system from sources not listed above (i.e. does not show on BODYSCAN)
     + Any action or skill that fully refreshes you (refresh, trueheal, etc).
     + Shrine abilities.
     + Beasts.
     + Abilities that could cause the person to be unable to debate, e.g. through triggering
    masochism. This includes the use of Tinkering music boxes.
     + Wondermasks


    Sometimes when you've played a game a long time you forget a lot of things. Note there is a difference in the rules between 'skills' and 'actions' that is what I was referring to earlier. That was at some point a settled mater that they were different and distinct. Don't buy that? It is followed with an example of both.
     + Any action or skill that fully refreshes you (refresh, trueheal, etc).

    Next:
     + Passive ego regeneration and max ego increases from skills outside the buff system from sources not listed above (i.e. does not show on BODYSCAN)

    This rule is about 'skills', not all skills, but those outside of the 'buff system'. The 'i.e.' informs which 'skills' and not as some seem to think, 'max ego increases'. It reads 'In other words, "Passive ego regeneration and max ego increases from skills [which/that] does not show on BODYSCAN.

    Per precedent Resolutions are not 'skills'.

    Further, it is unfair of you to take this out of its historical context.

    The overhaul system was something like mid-2013.

    Resolutions were added I believe January, J2017 (poss. Dec.).

    And what was said about resolutions then? If you can read this and think, oh everyone knew you couldn't use them then you're simply not me.

     
    Link to thread:


    Excerpts:

    Falaeron Jolteon Posts: 1,663 Transcendent
    Just wanted to share my thoughts on the resolutions and hear what other people think about them.

    ...

    Showboat: This is a massive bonus because it fits outside of the buff system. This needs to be disabled for Harmony challenges. On the other hand, influencing 2500 mobs takes a long time, especially if you're trying to be efficient with your experience/essence/esteem per time, which you would be if you are going to pay 100 credits to influence faster. I suggest either lowering the mobs required substantially (1000?) or changing it to work off of Harmony points instead and increasing the number required to something like 10000.

    Bloodlust: This is pretty much like the Showboat resolution but for bashing and needs to be disabled for Death challenges. I suggest changing the mobs required to 2500 or if doing it based on Death challenge points, 25000.

    Crafter: Like Showboat and Bloodlust this is very good because it fits outside of the standard buff system. For debates this is a huge advantage if one person has one. As a result, this needs to be disabled for Justice challenges. This will also make it a bit harder to kill someone through Telekinesis Forcefield and will make it even harder for people to pull of ego kills against anyone with this active.


    So Falaeron does not believe the rules cover Resolutions and that Resolutions should be disabled. Clearly the Admin chose not to do this. Nor, did any admin post it wasn't needed by saying anything along the lines of 'the rules ban it.'

    So what did others say about it? Did they rise up and say anything along the lines of, 'clearly it is against the rules or the spirit of the rules or even the spirit of the competition? Not that I see anywhere.


    Karlach God of Kittens. Posts: 3,867 Transcendent
    I don't see any of them being disabled for Ascension sadly, it really is the time of the min/maxers.

    However I really really dislike that Crafter sits outside of the buff system entirely for vitals. Some weird one shots aside like sacrifice to health that only increases your current maximum, not your potential total, this really does give someone a distinct advantage in multiple scenarios. Granted you're less likely to find someone try to pressure that vital for a kill as opposed to mana or health, but as Falmiis mentioned, this is also going to be a huge buff for TK users that lean on forcefield.
    ...

    So Karlach doesn't say they are not valid in Ascension, but thinks they're a problem in other areas. All those issues still remain to this day.

     
    Talan Posts: 1,000 Transcendent
    I don't see why these in particular should be disabled for world games. There are various limited/unique perks and artifacts in play, and if those are allowed, why not these? At least the resolutions are universally available, and for a relatively small cost. (100 credits is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost to be competitive for some events.)

    I do agree that the threshold for showboat should be lowered to 1000, maybe even 750. 


    So, once again the help will catch up with the rules or the rules will change under my feet (which is to be expected in a system this complex) and it won't be the first time.









    You tell Wyrden Ravager Tarken, "Come to Gaudiguch. I'll give you the title of Grand Moth."
    Eyes peering skywards as he thinks, Ironbeard the Magnanimous says to Sksez, "Welll, on my gooD lis *hic* t, we have....Stei *hic* ng *hic* rim.U..Xypherv....Luu *hic* hghaigh *hic* hhe....Breandryn....."
  • MaestraMaestra Member Posts: 19 Novice
    edited February 24
    @Neela (post edited a second time to add this tag, else it looks like I'm arguing with Steingrim, who ninja'd me)

    No. You're completely skirting the issue of mens rhea. The 'whether he thinks it's legitimate or not' is more important than you seem to want to accept if we want to decide whether somebody cheated. By definition, a cheat is somebody who acts dishonestly, and that requires a conscious decision to break the rules. (post edited to add the final word of this sentence, which got ett).

    Further, let's flip it on its head: Two of your buddies considered the resolution and then discarded it as likely breaking the rules: You words, not mine. Now, again, let's damn them to the sixth hell, using your words, not mine:

    Did they clarify it? Or did they just not do it?

    Did they do due diligence, or did they just choose not to gain a competitive advantage that was in anyway in a grey area of the rules?

    If there was any possible contention (which you've now admitted there was) it should have been clarified and asked at the start, when they agreed to the rules, which can be interpretted as not forbidding the thing which they were actively not using to gain an advantage over their competition.

    By your own argument this is an issue of interpretation, and as such you shouldn't be using it to cast aspersions on a person's motives and character.
  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    @Maestra Calm your jets there, because all those points you brought up make actually no sense and should honestly retire back to the peanut gallery, since you do not wish to read and are clearly only here to defend someone and not the cause.

    The reason why the other two contestants -DIDN'T- use the resolution is -BECAUSE- the year prior it was -SAID- that Resolutions were not permitted for Justice. Yes I'm aware it isn't documented without a log, but there were competitors in it least year that it was a big deal. Those two people didn't use the resolution because they remembered. So far, the only person to say it was intentionally used is Steingrim himself. Cheating isn't defined by a conscious decision, it can be done completely unintentional, please educate yourself in that regard.

    I've seen where Steingrim is coming from about the grey area, because he is correct that they are not skills themselves. Also also, as mentioned in this thread, precedents go right out the window and consistency is rough. Nobody seems to care that they were allowed in other events and years prior, but that only last year for Justice they were barred from use. Players expected it to be barred again, so they didn't use it, hence why people are getting upset. It is very clear -NOW- that resolutions are not welcome, again this year, and I should also HINT HINT at updating HELP ASCENSION RULES to reflect this so this doesn't happen next year....assuming there is a next year.
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