The Snowball Effect

InnonInnon Member Posts: 152 Capable
edited March 29 in Common Grounds
This forum post is to discuss a concerning problem that Lusternia is currently experiencing. This is not meant to blame. It is to point out facts, some opinions, and identify solutions.

Fact 1: Players are retiring from one side at an increased rate than the other.

Fact 2: Novices are selecting one side more than the other .

Fact 3: Combat is rarely even, and it is often one-sided in terms of numbers. 

Opinion 1: This isn't one or a few players fault on either side.

Opinion 2: People do not want to feel hopeless.

Opinion 3: This problem is killing and will end Lusternia.

Solution 1: Dissolve all alliances. 

Solution 2: Create mechanics that even sides in a numbers regard.

Solution 3: Adjust balance somehow to where numbers don't stack well. (I don't have a plan.)

Again, please don't specify org or players in this thread. 
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Comments

  • SynlSynl Member Posts: 173 Adept
    Innon said:
    This forum post is to discuss a concerning problem that Lusternia is currently experiencing. This is not meant to blame. It is to point out facts, some opinions, and identify solutions.

    Fact 1: Players are retiring from one side at an increased rate than the other.

    Fact 2: Novices are selecting one side more than the other .

    Fact 3: Combat is rarely even, and it is often one-sided in terms of numbers. 


    I would like to see the sources for these. Or some kind of data gathered. Not saying it's not correct, but there's no sense in looking for a solution if you cannot first identify a problem. So. Could the admins confirm/deny any of these statements? Or could the OP post numbers, along the lines of 'Novices a,b,c joined org x,y,z in this previous 2 week period.'?

    Proper identification of a problem will go a long way to resolving it.
  • KethaeraKethaera Member Posts: 845 Transcendent
    Synl said:
    Innon said:
    This forum post is to discuss a concerning problem that Lusternia is currently experiencing. This is not meant to blame. It is to point out facts, some opinions, and identify solutions.

    Fact 1: Players are retiring from one side at an increased rate than the other.

    Fact 2: Novices are selecting one side more than the other .

    Fact 3: Combat is rarely even, and it is often one-sided in terms of numbers. 


    I would like to see the sources for these. Or some kind of data gathered. Not saying it's not correct, but there's no sense in looking for a solution if you cannot first identify a problem. So. Could the admins confirm/deny any of these statements? Or could the OP post numbers, along the lines of 'Novices a,b,c joined org x,y,z in this previous 2 week period.'?

    Proper identification of a problem will go a long way to resolving it.
    I have 11 alts, spread across 5 orgs, and am unable to engage in the level of self-deception necessary not to notice this trend. But by all means, someone do an official study so that you can then protest the means by which the data was collected and interpreted.
  • SynlSynl Member Posts: 173 Adept
    If I ran my business on gut feelings and hunches alone, and not actual metrics, I'd be, well, out of business. Can we please get past this idea of us vs them? Literally just asked for data to help pinpoint the problem, get told that I'm on a secret crusade to destroy the game.

    Fantastic. This is how you build good relations.
  • KethaeraKethaera Member Posts: 845 Transcendent
    Synl said:
    If I ran my business on gut feelings and hunches alone, and not actual metrics, I'd be, well, out of business. Can we please get past this idea of us vs them? Literally just asked for data to help pinpoint the problem, get told that I'm on a secret crusade to destroy the game.

    Fantastic. This is how you build good relations.
    This is how every conversation about this topic starts. I'm tired of pretending that three-quarters of the game must live in their own isolated pocket of reality. I just don't believe you're this clueless, sorry.

    Opinion 1: This isn't one or a few players fault on either side.


    Man, so much victimization. Who am I building "good relations" with? Your question is a classic stall, and is the same thing that happens every time someone brings up or even hints at that forest that must not be named. The sheer numbers will not show the real trend of what happens in Domoths, villages, etc etc, given the ability of anyone, including myself, to have alts. So this data would be largely useless, but you still want it anyway before anyone is allowed to discuss the problem. Right.

    I mean, I guess if the game dies with one side on top, you do "win", so good job! I'll be back in Aetolia, along with many others.

  • InnonInnon Member Posts: 152 Capable
    edited March 29
    @Synl
    1 Data: Retires of merit that I can recall: Yarith, Mrak, Anita, Nicholo, Danquik, Gero, Marcella, Lycidas, Falaeron, and possiblely I few others. Please add any from the other "side".

    2 Data: Novices: Choros, Innon, Pysynne, Aydeksa, Iove, Afollia, Ishra, Esri, Irulan, Kyalrhin, and Ionetta. Please add any I missed. 

    3 Data: This was meant at both sides, but most domoths are one sided. Ascension was until that thing happened. The past several revolts have been heavily lopsided to one side. 

    Hopefully, this starts you off with a bit of data. You are more than welcome to validate or correct any information here. 
  • PysynnePysynne Member Posts: 103 Adept
    It's like the OP has never played any IRE game. This is normal in every game, some orgs attract more players than others and people come and go in waves. Obviously, there are balance issues that some players have concerns with, but the "retire", "novices join other orgs" that's normal behaviours in IRE games. Not to mention the fact that people generally want to play with their friends, so if I got 3 people to join it is pretty good odds they would join Serenwilde so they could play with me.
  • SynlSynl Member Posts: 173 Adept
    Ignoring the crazy person:

    1. Data helps to show HOW to correct a problem. That is why it's important to have it before moving on. Otherwise, what are we trying to even fix here? 'More novices', ok, how? Is it a problem of more novices JOINING org x first, or is it a problem of RETENTION (ie. they join org y, but then leave for org x)?

    2. Players are retiring at an increasing rate... why? Can we get a list of the players who have retired from each org in the last 12 months to give us some direction here? I'm sorry, I don't spend as much time on this game as you and unfortunately am not aware of every single person who plays/retires throughout the year. If you do, then please, share, and I can learn.

    3. Combat definitely swings back and forth with numbers. Potential fix to this in game would be an MMR system, where each player is scored based on their credit cost, level, and some other points (maybe number of kills in the last year? Don't know, spitballing), and then only allow equal MMR to be up in a combat area at any given point. This one we know is a problem and the data could be gathered in one 24 hour period, but unsure how to fix it.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,967 Transcendent
    I mean, @Synl there are so many threads here that document the most recent issues. I think someone recently compiled them all, even, for your reading pleasure. Please go read them so we don't have to rehash it all again.

    image
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,967 Transcendent
    "Problem: The Economy" A thread by Ejderha. March 2018, 6 pages of comments:
    https://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/3355/problem-the-economy/p1

    "Leaving Lusternia" 2018 march, a thread by Lilyin! 71 votes, 6 pages of comments:
    https://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/3349/leaving-lusternia/p1

    My personal tipping point for giving up on combat-related events. "Chaos Event Megathread", a thread by Ianir, the lead coding admin of the time. 2018 January:
    https://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/3301/chaos-event-megathread/p1

    And Glomdoring plays no part in any of it? Sure.

    "Shadowtwists and you - A discussion" 2017 October by Kalikai, another balance design admin. But I need to guide you through this one. Hallifax represantative Falaeron comments, Celest represantative Kaimanahi comments, then a Magnagoran Ascendant (And a former Glomdoring player) Karlach comments and then, with no deleted comments or anything, I ensure you, Kalikai is requested to close thread, by Glomdoring represantatives. Because they do not believe a constructive discussion is possible about their skillsets in public:
    https://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/comment/180412#Comment_180412

    Another attempt to open Shadowtwists up to discussion by a Serenwilde/Celest envoy, I can not remember which org he was in back then, by Minkahmet. Shut down again, as you can see:
    https://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/comment/180438#Comment_180438

    "Do you feel that glomdoring skillsets in general and whole are superior to other orgs" by Yarith, January 2018. Just an opinion survey, which has a few noncombatant input in the votes in both columns and some unfortunate trolling attempts in the comments. But there it is:
    https://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/3305/do-you-feel-that-glomdoring-skillsets-in-general-and-whole-are-superior-to-other-org-counterparts/p1

    image
  • InnonInnon Member Posts: 152 Capable
    Pysynne said:
    It's like the OP has never played any IRE game. This is normal in every game, some orgs attract more players than others and people come and go in waves. Obviously, there are balance issues that some players have concerns with, but the "retire", "novices join other orgs" that's normal behaviours in IRE games. Not to mention the fact that people generally want to play with their friends, so if I got 3 people to join it is pretty good odds they would join Serenwilde so they could play with me.

    A lot of the retirees I listed were not burnouts or loss of interest. It wasn't friends being on another side. It was the exact opposite. These were all long time great players in their own merit. Each had several friends that kept them hanging on much longer than they otherwise would have. The novice issue is more it's easier to start on the "winning" side thus the name "Snowball". 
  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    As one of the listed retired players, that still follows and hopes the game improves, I want to applaud that data is desired to be gathered so that factual statements can indeed be made. But, that's as far as that goes. The problems are evident, well-documented, and glaring to anybody that logs in on a consistent basis and cares enough to notice. That is to say, people are willfully ignorant and claim nothing is wrong. That is not a blanket statement, there are individuals that do this. As for why people are retiring and how many? Over a dozen, including myself, have retired from a single org, ALONE, in the past four months. That's not including people in Hallifax, Serenwilde, or anywhere else because I quite frankly didn't bother to track those numbers and names like a bookie. I'm sure there's been retirements in all orgs from burnout, just wanting to move to Starmourn, whatever the reason. But, a large portion of those that left had something in common, and it has been voiced so many times that even just browsing recent discussions here will show you.

    Asking the admins to verify numbers won't happen because it will do more damage than good. You make mention if you ran your business a certain way, you'd be out of it. So let's think like a business man again, "Hey, Synl, how many customers and active users have you lost in the past year?". It's like asking any business how much revenue they lost and openly admit to it. Steps are being made to rectify this, and is pretty much the only reason I still hold out hope that things improve. I wasn't about in-game politics and my side vs your side, in fact, I had decent relations ICly with the opposition, having conversations and on occasion helping with something minor, or reaching out to their novices to make sure they were being tended to.

    Onto addressing why novices choose certain sides. Mostly, it is for the flavor they want to play, but surely people aren't so naive to notice that the novice they had interactions with just disappears and a new novice appears that seems to stick around? Maybe the willful ignorance again, but saying it doesn't happen and saying that it is our fault for not giving them attention or being so negative about things is just equally false. I can speak for Magnagora, that we would get a novice, sometimes two, each day, and possibly 5% of them stuck around. It takes commitment and grit to want to remain on the side that is so downtrodden that frankly, not many are going to stay because this is a game for enjoyment! This isn't some competitive game where you're hired to a specific team to fight for, you're going to go where you can enjoy and feel the pay off.

    Lastly, combat swings? Your turn to supply data, please show where combat was altered by a change in numbers. A 2v1 turning into a 2v2 isn't really an accurate scale either, also since there have not been equal numbers on the battlefield in well over six months I severely doubt you'll find the data points. In short, one side has the numbers and class skill superiority and people are leaving because they see nothing being done about it. Even in those discussions where plenty of voices are made known, it ends in the same way this started, "proof or gtfo."
  • RancouraRancoura the Last Nightwreathed Queen CanadaMember Posts: 1,472 Transcendent
    edited March 29
    Hi, I just want to drop in a request that blanket terms such as "your side" or "Glomdoring" used in a general manner to refer to contextual actions/opinions be avoided. As someone belonging to "that side" and not necessarily agreeing with everything that has been said by other players, I don't appreciate either myself or the Glomdoring playerbase as a whole being painted with ugly colours simply by association (unless everyone from "this side" has somehow proven to favour the same stances in every argument and discussion). Thank you!

    Tonight amidst the mountaintops
    And endless starless night
    Singing how the wind was lost
    Before an earthly flight

  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    @Rancoura I'm confused, where did those blanket statements and Glomdoring get used? If you're referencing Maligorn's posts for the links and the summary of them, then that's not really an argument, just reference points.
  • RancouraRancoura the Last Nightwreathed Queen CanadaMember Posts: 1,472 Transcendent
    Ayisdra said:
    Synl said:
    [...]
    A number of retired players have answered why (either here or in other places (discord, private channels, etc)). Your side doesn't like(/believe) the answer and calls them toxic players that the game is better without.

    Tonight amidst the mountaintops
    And endless starless night
    Singing how the wind was lost
    Before an earthly flight

  • KalnidKalnid Member Posts: 548 Fabled
    #notallgloms
  • SynlSynl Member Posts: 173 Adept
    Innon said:
    @Synl
    1 Data: Retires of merit that I can recall: Yarith, Mrak, Anita, Nicholo, Danquik, Gero, Marcella, Lycidas, Falaeron, and possiblely I few others. Please add any from the other "side".

    2 Data: Novices: Choros, Innon, Pysynne, Aydeksa, Iove, Afollia, Ishra, Esri, Irulan, Kyalrhin, and Ionetta. Please add any I missed. 

    3 Data: This was meant at both sides, but most domoths are one sided. Ascension was until that thing happened. The past several revolts have been heavily lopsided to one side. 

    Hopefully, this starts you off with a bit of data. You are more than welcome to validate or correct any information here. 
    1. I don't know who has retired. Like I said, I don't really keep track of the playerbase, except for like Xiran and Shikari because Synl as a character has kind of died and I don't really have any roleplay to go off of anymore. Anyways, that's a different problem altogether (although could be a 2 birds, 1 stone situation - let me reroll my character while keeping all my artifacts please! I'd happily roll Nihilist, some fun characters to play in mind). That's a long list though, and I doubt Glomdoring could compete. Celest and Gaudiguch might be able to boast similar retiree numbers, though, again, I'm not really sure of this. Point: ok, lots of people have retired from the one side, at least, stating their reasons in a variety of threads. Some of those reasons are better validated than others.

    2. Gurashi, off the top of my head, though I would say Afollia is pretty explicitly not a novice. There was another one in the village last night, too, a monk I hadn't seen before. Keahi? Anyways, those numbers seem mostly equal for the two alliances - Choros, Innon, Pysynne, Aydeksa, Iove, Keahi? vs. Ishra, Gurashi, Esri, Irulan, Ionetta, Kyalrhin? So what are we trying to fix here?

    3. They have been one-sided, I agree. That flows throughout the day, but probably the trend is heavily lop-sided. This needs fixing, and I suggested (as has been previously suggested) an MMR system to force balanced combat.

    As an aside, I do think first the players have to come to terms with what it means to be a competitive game. That is, if you want this game to be a competitive online game, then you need to accept that not everyone will get to participate (low MMR? learn or leave) or that people are going to push and bend the mechanics to the maximum (difference between 'cheap' and 'cheating') to eke out a win. And that should be acceptable and encouraged behaviour. I am not a combatant in this game because I do not consider this a good platform to exercise my competitive habits - I would rather do that in MTG, the various miniature games I play, etc.Lycidas said:
    As one of the listed retired players, that still follows and hopes the game improves, I want to applaud that data is desired to be gathered so that factual statements can indeed be made. But, that's as far as that goes. The problems are evident, well-documented, and glaring to anybody that logs in on a consistent basis and cares enough to notice. That is to say, people are willfully ignorant and claim nothing is wrong. That is not a blanket statement, there are individuals that do this. As for why people are retiring and how many? Over a dozen, including myself, have retired from a single org, ALONE, in the past four months. That's not including people in Hallifax, Serenwilde, or anywhere else because I quite frankly didn't bother to track those numbers and names like a bookie. I'm sure there's been retirements in all orgs from burnout, just wanting to move to Starmourn, whatever the reason. But, a large portion of those that left had something in common, and it has been voiced so many times that even just browsing recent discussions here will show you.

    Asking the admins to verify numbers won't happen because it will do more damage than good. You make mention if you ran your business a certain way, you'd be out of it. So let's think like a business man again, "Hey, Synl, how many customers and active users have you lost in the past year?". It's like asking any business how much revenue they lost and openly admit to it. Steps are being made to rectify this, and is pretty much the only reason I still hold out hope that things improve. I wasn't about in-game politics and my side vs your side, in fact, I had decent relations ICly with the opposition, having conversations and on occasion helping with something minor, or reaching out to their novices to make sure they were being tended to.

    Onto addressing why novices choose certain sides. Mostly, it is for the flavor they want to play, but surely people aren't so naive to notice that the novice they had interactions with just disappears and a new novice appears that seems to stick around? Maybe the willful ignorance again, but saying it doesn't happen and saying that it is our fault for not giving them attention or being so negative about things is just equally false. I can speak for Magnagora, that we would get a novice, sometimes two, each day, and possibly 5% of them stuck around. It takes commitment and grit to want to remain on the side that is so downtrodden that frankly, not many are going to stay because this is a game for enjoyment! This isn't some competitive game where you're hired to a specific team to fight for, you're going to go where you can enjoy and feel the pay off.

    Lastly, combat swings? Your turn to supply data, please show where combat was altered by a change in numbers. A 2v1 turning into a 2v2 isn't really an accurate scale either, also since there have not been equal numbers on the battlefield in well over six months I severely doubt you'll find the data points. In short, one side has the numbers and class skill superiority and people are leaving because they see nothing being done about it. Even in those discussions where plenty of voices are made known, it ends in the same way this started, "proof or gtfo."
    That's a good point. The discussion falls apart a bit because this is a weird business where the customers talk more about saving the business than the actual business owner. If my customers were having these kinds of forums, I would probably be more inclined to step in with data.

    I would agree that most people would not want to stay on the losing side, but I'm wondering how quickly novices realize their side is 'the losing side'. I rolled a character in Aetolia not too long ago, going in largely blind, and I could not tell you for the life of me if my character was on the winning or the losing side... granted I only played about 15ish days, on and off, but that's what I imagine a novice's playtime to be, too. Basically, I'm wondering how we link novice retention to winning villages/domoths/nodes? Older player retention for sure can be linked to it, but unsure about the novice bit.

    I can agree on numbers by and large, but the skill superiority I can't speak to. Some things (like aeon being tied to stolen shadow) seem like obvious changes to me, but my knowledge of combat is little enough that I can't say what it will break elsewhere. Other changes (like bleeding synergy being superior to aff-based synergies) seem like obvious problems, but would need a more hefty research before the change (imo, make bleeding into an aff, cured by dust/steam only, that then slows down sipping health/mana or something... like I said, more research). I can't really speak to this, like I said.
  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    edited March 29
    I'm in agreement that it's not all Glomdoring players, and I think I've even made a definition before of what we mean, and why we say it. Also yes, I missed that in Ayisdra's post. When we say, "Glomdoring does x" the Glomdoring in that is usually referring to the people that have agency in those discussions and are representatives of Glomdoring, whether as leaders or esteemed figures. Everybody does this in some facet, because it is honestly easier to say a generalized term than to sit there and either construct a complex workaround or listing the individuals in question. If it helps, we can start putting - 'Those that represent Glomdoring in and out of game in discussions upon the forums that are controversial'. Really long-winded but is precise enough to not feel the need to defend yourself. We're not actively targeting people, and I don't think many people will say 'all of Glom' in their statements either. Every org has the vocal group, then you have the people in the background that exist and do things that are entirely unrelated.
  • VatulVatul Member Posts: 238 Expert
    edited March 29
    I think it is difficult for people to speak about where blame lies. Many will qualify it as said above, but that would merely muddle what @Innon is attempting to start here with this thread.
    I agree with @Lycidas, that it would be a poor business move to name all of those who have retired recently and ask for the data as proof.
    As for organisations, it is difficult to truly maintain flavor if it is the people who perpetuate it. The reason Glomdoring has so many is not just due to a lack of mechanical adjustments, but that they have those who can continue the string of culture. While others who lack endurance at seeing so many uphill climbs on many fronts, will be few and far in between. Thanks @Maligorn for compiling all those, I was going to work on that but it seems you beat me to it.
    The cool night-time breeze shivers in the arid caress of the streets of the capital city, brushing the earthen taste of dust across your lips.
    *
    A blessed silence falls upon the city for the moment, most activity confined to the towers and the
    theatre due to the snowy weather.
    *
    Pinprick points of light twinkle in the deep black overhead, their brightness full of a cold,
    hungering malice.
  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    Synl said:
    I would agree that most people would not want to stay on the losing side, but I'm wondering how quickly novices realize their side is 'the losing side'. I rolled a character in Aetolia not too long ago, going in largely blind, and I could not tell you for the life of me if my character was on the winning or the losing side... granted I only played about 15ish days, on and off, but that's what I imagine a novice's playtime to be, too. Basically, I'm wondering how we link novice retention to winning villages/domoths/nodes? Older player retention for sure can be linked to it, but unsure about the novice bit.
    Pardon the snips, just wanted to quote the relevant part to my response. I believe in civil discussion and this has been healthy thus far. Aetolia novices do not have the same level of information as Lusternia novices do. We have a singular command POLITICS which can quickly sway opinions. It then even has subcommands listed at the bottom to alter the syntax to get different information. Assuming a novice does their tasks and learns about the village revolts, aetherflares, what have you, and they see that they control nothing, they then know what's going down.

    Beyond this, defenses like deathsight exist and they can see their people getting slaughtered left, right, and center. They can also have loyalsays to hear org loyals being attacked and dying, with no chance of defending. Aetolia, while great in it's own right, doesn't have many, if any, parallels in how our conflict system works. They used to, when landmarks were a thing well over a decade, maybe two, ago though. Point of the matter, a novice has plenty of information that says, "You're getting your butt kicked." It's like starting a D&D campaign with a 15 point buy while everyone else at the table gets a 30 point buy.
  • KalnidKalnid Member Posts: 548 Fabled
    Synl said:

    As an aside, I do think first the players have to come to terms with what it means to be a competitive game.
    Lusternia would have to be a competitive game first. Right now, it's just a game in which you can compete.
  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    Your experience is justified and I'm not at all going to discredit it, even if the following sounds like I am. I've played in every org, I've been a notable figure in each org too - I kind of just naturally find myself in a leadership role or organizing things for the benefit of others. While I was in Glom, I had good experiences with the people for the most part. There were the few that I just wish would put on a muzzle, but that was personal opinion and not their fault. This happens everywhere and I've addressed this before in another thread. To rehash, you're more likely to approve and like the people in your org/alliance than you are anybody from the opposition. It is familiarity and comfort at play, but because I've seen people at multiple angles, I have my opinion on them. I've played with, alongside, and against the same people and it is quite surprising the difference it makes. Luckily, there are some people that regardless of where you are, they are still enjoyable. Looking at @Rancoura who made my time as Dhani enjoyable, even when silly crap and misunderstandings put us at odds. We worked together for the betterment of the guild and org, and then I buggered off into the distance on a break.
  • InnonInnon Member Posts: 152 Capable
    edited March 29
    @Synl
    You asked for data. I obliged. You then say it may be the same in Gaudi/Celest. I would say it isn't. Make a list though and add to my current list. Rasvin was one from Gaudiguch. 

    Iove is Celest and hopefully Keahi does stick around, but let's not count one event. I will help Keahi as much as I can. Aydeksa was Gaudi. I guess our failure to communicate is I don't think 4/5 is close to a steady 8. Also, Innon and Choros are clearly not novices, so if you remove them then you would have it at 3 to 7. 

    Aetolia is a different game. Anyone can clearly see who is winning in Lusternia. It  could be a bit more balanced in Aetolia. 


  • Daxi StrongleafDaxi Strongleaf Member Posts: 43 Apprentice
    After watching the forums for a bit, I realise these threads that keep popping up are pointless. it is obvious that the majority of Glomdoring is never going to think that there is any sort of problem in the game, aside from people being 'too lazy' to learn how to fight them. It's getting painful to watch you guys try to change their minds.

    It's hard when novices in my own org come to me for advice on how to fight, and I don't have an answer, or even some direction to point them in. Sure, I could try to learn how to fight, but learning to fight by getting smacked into the ground repeatedly is not something I would enjoy, or advise others to attempt. Leaving the only option as, join Glomdoring and get them to teach you to fight.
  • SynlSynl Member Posts: 173 Adept
    Innon said:
    @Synl
    You asked for data. I obliged. You then say it may be the same in Gaudi/Celest. I would say it isn't. Make a list though and add to my current list. Rasvin was one from Gaudiguch. 

    Iove is Celest and hopefully Keahi does stick around, but let's not count one event. I will help Keahi as much as I can. Aydeksa was Gaudi. I guess our failure to communicate is I don't think 4/5 is close to a steady 8. Also, Innon and Choros are clearly not novices, so if you remove them then you would have it at 3 to 7. 

    Aetolia is a different game. Anyone can clearly see who is winning in Lusternia. It that maybe it could be a bit more balanced in Aetolia. 


    Ok, I was going off your list heh, so if those aren't novices... then yea, let's remove them. 3 to 7 is more lopsided for sure.

    Lycidas makes a good point about how visible it is who holds what villages. Again though, is that something novices are actually aware of? If novice retention in certain organizations is a major problem, then we need to address it. Going back to your solutions:

    Solution 1: Dissolve all alliances.  - How? A domoth style system, where if org x already owns a number of villages, then it cannot enter any more villages?

    Solution 2: Create mechanics that even sides in a numbers regard.  - How? MMR system like any actual competitive online game uses?

    Solution 3: Adjust balance somehow to where numbers don't stack well. (I don't have a plan.) Same as solution 2, really.
  • PysynnePysynne Member Posts: 103 Adept
    edited March 29
    Iove is not a novice, Aydeksa is not a novice, I am not a novice either.
  • SynlSynl Member Posts: 173 Adept
    After watching the forums for a bit, I realise these threads that keep popping up are pointless. it is obvious that the majority of Glomdoring is never going to think that there is any sort of problem in the game, aside from people being 'too lazy' to learn how to fight them. It's getting painful to watch you guys try to change their minds.
    Recognizing there is a problem is not the same recognizing WHAT that problem is. Yes, there is a problem with game numbers. That is as easy as comparing the WHO between two IRE games. I believe it goes Achaea, a HUGE gap, Aetolia, Lusternia, Imperian in that order.

    However, what is that problem? Ok, it's Glomdoring being toxic or having abilities that are overpowered.

    Ok, let's go with that. What is the solution that the admins have agreed to implementing? It's...

    See where the system breaks down, and how it's a little disingenous (and more importantly, fruitless) to blame players?

    I don't care about an org being labeled the enemy, but it doesn't DO anything. Imagine if nobody from Glomdoring (well, me) had commented on this thread. What would have changed?
  • Daxi StrongleafDaxi Strongleaf Member Posts: 43 Apprentice
    Nothing. Which is why these threads are pointless. Glomdoring says it's not a problem, everyone else becomes an echo chamber saying that they are.
  • InnonInnon Member Posts: 152 Capable
    Synl said:
    Innon said:
    @Synl
    You asked for data. I obliged. You then say it may be the same in Gaudi/Celest. I would say it isn't. Make a list though and add to my current list. Rasvin was one from Gaudiguch. 

    Iove is Celest and hopefully Keahi does stick around, but let's not count one event. I will help Keahi as much as I can. Aydeksa was Gaudi. I guess our failure to communicate is I don't think 4/5 is close to a steady 8. Also, Innon and Choros are clearly not novices, so if you remove them then you would have it at 3 to 7. 

    Aetolia is a different game. Anyone can clearly see who is winning in Lusternia. It that maybe it could be a bit more balanced in Aetolia. 


    Ok, I was going off your list heh, so if those aren't novices... then yea, let's remove them. 3 to 7 is more lopsided for sure.

    Lycidas makes a good point about how visible it is who holds what villages. Again though, is that something novices are actually aware of? If novice retention in certain organizations is a major problem, then we need to address it. Going back to your solutions:

    Solution 1: Dissolve all alliances.  - How? A domoth style system, where if org x already owns a number of villages, then it cannot enter any more villages?

    Solution 2: Create mechanics that even sides in a numbers regard.  - How? MMR system like any actual competitive online game uses?

    Solution 3: Adjust balance somehow to where numbers don't stack well. (I don't have a plan.) Same as solution 2, really.

    Solution 1: Admin has forced alliance shifts prior in history. God disfavors for not attempting to compete for you own org? New mechanics that pit orgs against each other? The point is to come up with ideas. I'm not fond of this idea, but it's better than the status quo. 

    Solution 2: Maybe an MMR rating or even an instance where it allows even number or within a certain number of combatants to actually have the event. (This of course would have issues) I don't think there is a perfect solution. See my new Timequakes comment.

    Solution 3: Create more diminishing returns like on wounds and demon marks. Mana drains, health damage, etc having diminishing returns would be a step that could be taken, but again it would have some issues that would need to be worked out.
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