The Snowball Effect

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  • InnonInnon Member Posts: 152 Capable
    1v1v1v1v1v1 would be the best, and it is possible. See: Achaea.

    The only thing that's """forcing""" alliances are the players. Jk also smobs have been so overtuned that you need a lot of people that no single org has to be able to kill them.

    Exactly the only thing stopping it is us and a few chelp scrolls.
  • EnyaEnya Member Posts: 382 Gifted
    edited April 4
    But it is players in a plural group context. Don't forget that one org *did* decide to sever alliances and step towards a free for all scenario... and subsequently failed so hard to stand alone that it very quickly re-entered alliances. 

    If every org made a similar move at the same time, I think there would certainly be issues vis-a-vis disparate populations and the probable de facto "least bad enemy" based partnerships but it might possibly be workable long term. Without that kind of unanimous motion *and* some concrete benefits to create incentives to stand alone it is not possible. 

    Even if every player agrees on it, all of the games mechanics (ALL of them) are structured such that it's best to have 2 alliances, two "parties" in every competition, and so this will always be a status quo we return to in the longer term. 
  • InnonInnon Member Posts: 152 Capable
    Enya said:
    But it is players in a plural group context. Don't forget that one org *did* decide to sever alliances and step towards a free for all scenario... and subsequently failed so hard to stand alone that it very quickly re-entered alliances. 

    If every org made a similar move at the same time, I think there would certainly be issues vis-a-vis disparate populations and the probable de facto "least bad enemy" based partnerships but it might possibly be workable long term. Without that kind of unanimous motion *and* some concrete benefits to create incentives to stand alone it is not possible. 

    Even if every player agrees on it, all of the games mechanics (ALL of them) are structured such that it's best to have 2 alliances, two "parties" in every competition, and so this will always be a status quo we return to in the longer term. 

    I agree with the part everyone would need to dissolve at once, but I disagree about the mechanics. It is literally the opposite. Every  mechanic is literally not created for 1v1. The game is not 1v1. It is what we the players made it into. The scoring system all score individually for single orgs not alliances. 
  • KistanKistan Member Posts: 338 Gifted
    It sounds like you have found your game then @Anaklusmos
  • CoralineCoraline Member Posts: 281 Adept
    But tacos are banned in achaea :/
    Ghost-shark, ghost-shark! A ghost and a shark!
    He's spooky and scary and white
    He swims circles around in the night
    He fights with the forces of Light
    If you see him, you will die of fright!
  • InnonInnon Member Posts: 152 Capable
    It is honestly not productive to call someone out for pointing out what is good in another IRE. Lusternia has pulled other things from other IREs. The fact that PvP is so broken in Lusternia right now should cause us all to be looking anywhere for solutions. 
  • KistanKistan Member Posts: 338 Gifted
    I suppose the question is - what needs to be fixed to make people start trying at PvP again?

    If all this stuff gets changed - and Magnagora and Hallifax have had some pretty major overhauls in the last year - and there is still no PvP because another reason gets put forward, then it is not PvP that is broken (well it may be but no amount of fixing anything is going to cure the problem)
  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    I think the outlined issues that have been stated so many times, are actual issues. One of them can be addressed by the admins and the other, well... can't. -If- combat skills were on an even playing field (all factors considered - skills themselves, synergy, afflictions etc) to where it would boil down to actual player skill and population, then it wouldn't be so bad. The discouraging part comes into play when you're just outnumbered 3 to 1, and no amount of player skill is going to see you win that encounter. That's what the admin can't really fix, is player choice of population.
  • KistanKistan Member Posts: 338 Gifted
    edited April 5
    @Lycidas So you are saying that population problems needs to be fixed before skills?

    The admin can to some extent fix population by showering love on those under represented - we all know people are suckers for active gods!


    Post edited by Kistan on
  • KistanKistan Member Posts: 338 Gifted
    PvP is broken because we don't want to enter into it due to dominance of one side. You can blame us all you like for not trying, but at some point you have to start wondering why, if players don't want to climb the mountain, the players are getting blamed rather than the mountain.
    But thats what I was asking - what would make you start again? There is no point treating the symptoms and not the underlying cause. It is easy to say what you don't want, less easy to say what you do. If all the fixes in the world would not make you PvP again, then while your opinion is valid, I would concentrate any effort on those who were still willing and ask them what would make them get into PvP again. Not saying you are to blame, only that the effort might not be worth the reward
  • Daxi StrongleafDaxi Strongleaf Member Posts: 43 Apprentice
    Kistan said:
    But thats what I was asking - what would make you start again? There is no point treating the symptoms and not the underlying cause. It is easy to say what you don't want, less easy to say what you do. If all the fixes in the world would not make you PvP again, then while your opinion is valid, I would concentrate any effort on those who were still willing and ask them what would make them get into PvP again. Not saying you are to blame, only that the effort might not be worth the reward
    Good points. In answer, combat is favourable to Glomdoring because vitals pressure > affs pressure. This is why I don't want to play ball. Now - I don't want Glomdoring to be nerfed, I'm not really on board with the 'nerf bleed' stuff - I want to have other vitals kills become viable. Either give warriors (and stag druids?) the tools to pull off health kills, or remove some of the things that prevent them from pulling it off. Everyone has warriors, so making them good helps every org. Then look at the magic based guilds and see if they can be given tools for a vitals kill, or at least something like Hallifaxes Timequake, which has obviously been a recent major success and good step towards equalising things.
  • InnonInnon Member Posts: 152 Capable
    edited April 5
    Kistan said:
    I suppose the question is - what needs to be fixed to make people start trying at PvP again?

    If all this stuff gets changed - and Magnagora and Hallifax have had some pretty major overhauls in the last year - and there is still no PvP because another reason gets put forward, then it is not PvP that is broken (well it may be but no amount of fixing anything is going to cure the problem)


    First, Hallifax nor Magnagora has had "major" overhauls. Nihilism and Necromancy was overhauled and was almost immediate nerfed. Hallifax had an Institute overhaul, so literally two gaurdian classes. People have begged for Halli nerfs already which is laughable. Balance issues mean nothing without an active playerbase on both sides. Numbers > Balance, but balance is very important and needs to be addressed too.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,136 Transcendent
    A treacherous and potentially difficult thing, the admin need to make orgs want to go after other orgs that will actually challenge them.

    For the game, the ideal alliance layout really is one where both sides are of similar strength. This way your combatants should be able to get regular fight while also being able to help smaller orgs grow their combatant population until it gets to a point they become rivals.
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  • ShangoShango Member Posts: 152 Capable
    edited April 5
    Yes. Wall of text....please read it, I am not an expert in everything, so take the opportunity to suggest constructive things to FIX this game. Admins listening to them or not (perceived bias, or more likely just inability TO due to limited coding resources/time, they ARE people after all, not damned robots or slaves), it can still act as a basis moving forward.

    Once the mechanical side of things is adjusted...alliance shifts, or lack of alliances, can certainly be addressed. Had Magnagora and Glomdoring remained allied, or somehow decided to ally now...game would just grind to a damned halt. No one'd be left to really fight. Even if people bailed from orgs for the others....RP ambitions being a valid reason because all the openings...mechanics still would prevent much headway no matter how smart or skilled or even artied out they are. So...this being addressed first can get the ball rolling to getting Lusternia on its feet I think.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,136 Transcendent
    I don't know if it's coming or not, but one of the suggestions for the Hartstone in the melder rework was to change allergies into a mechanic themed on the forest getting increasingly angry with the target to some effect.

    Alternatively, or in complement to that, there was also stuff like... maybe we have an "overcharged" mode (use the fury to shapeshift temporarily for super power or the like) or maybe there's something that can be built on ourselves, or other seren classes do so.  Not sure how that has developed, if at all, but part of the hope was to also introduce a uniquely seren mechanism that we could build off of.
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  • EsoneyunaEsoneyuna Member Posts: 135 Adept
    Shango said:


    Gaudiguch is based on Slush based, but so damned chaotic...fitting for a city of Flame based on Chaos as a theme with their access to the Cosmic Plane of Vortex. However, means much of what they need, will be heavily RNG based. Illuminati is one of the strongest classes in the game, but hampered by this fact more than any other, with only real advantage over MDs and SDs being that their mass of ents need to be targeted individually rather than a common moniker like 'fae', so take longer to kill. Limited access to Aeon as well, Tarot being the primary means for it for them, compared to Institute, but more on par to Nihilists of Mag save with more diversified ents and harder to hamper with a Nymph mask or denizen targeting due to multiple targets. Remains the RNG nature of Para that hampers most of what they can do. Now we get to the other side of it, their focus IS on Slush, while half the city needs to rely on ice as ablaze/burns is cured through that. Synergy gets divided into two focuses rather than complimentary, and no aff in Slush or Ice tables bridges the gap, with the exception of DamagedThroat that I hope their new monks can dish out as an Ice cure that also stops Slush sipping....but ONE class in the whole city can offer that. Warriors could, depending on spec (Pureblade and Blademaster, via SlitThroat, both requiring Heavy Wounds to apply so you will NOT get that easily in the fast paced engagements group combat especially revolves around), but timing is a factor. Burns focus could get the kill, if some of their focus was switched to that, TemporaryInsanity somehow switched to an Ice cure (baaad idea) else built off burn sources from Pyromancers, newmonks, etc, could get them closer to be on par with Glomdoring's bleed and mana synergy. Biggest issue is that, intentional I think, haphazard and chaotic design of their classes in general though. @Malarious, @Steingrim, @Dys as the primary experts more familiar with the nuances of Gaudiguch, best for you to help me out here for specifics, accuracy being more important than my outside observations.

    Illuminati -used- to be one of the best classes about until a certain envoy suggested nerfs to -intentionally- underpower the class in a what he claimed was a two step program to make Illuminati a less passive build. He removed the majority of passive build but failed to ever include new active building of insanity. Leaving Illuminati in a very bad place in terms of killing power. Add to this there are things like karma blessings affecting this insanity build and a bigger reliance on easily killed ents (including the 5 power temporary one) this class is probably on the bottom of the pile for killing. It does have some neat support skills though. Also compared to my playing Celestine, Nihilist, Moondancer and Researcher. Ent control of Illuminati is a lot more complex then the others I played (eg one small mistake or even delay on a command can instantly reduce your build to 0).

    Researchers actually got the skills that were removed from Illuminati for being to passive. And I would certainly place researchers well above Illuminati at this point.


  • InnonInnon Member Posts: 152 Capable
    Esoneyuna said:
    Shango said:


    Gaudiguch is based on Slush based, but so damned chaotic...fitting for a city of Flame based on Chaos as a theme with their access to the Cosmic Plane of Vortex. However, means much of what they need, will be heavily RNG based. Illuminati is one of the strongest classes in the game, but hampered by this fact more than any other, with only real advantage over MDs and SDs being that their mass of ents need to be targeted individually rather than a common moniker like 'fae', so take longer to kill. Limited access to Aeon as well, Tarot being the primary means for it for them, compared to Institute, but more on par to Nihilists of Mag save with more diversified ents and harder to hamper with a Nymph mask or denizen targeting due to multiple targets. Remains the RNG nature of Para that hampers most of what they can do. Now we get to the other side of it, their focus IS on Slush, while half the city needs to rely on ice as ablaze/burns is cured through that. Synergy gets divided into two focuses rather than complimentary, and no aff in Slush or Ice tables bridges the gap, with the exception of DamagedThroat that I hope their new monks can dish out as an Ice cure that also stops Slush sipping....but ONE class in the whole city can offer that. Warriors could, depending on spec (Pureblade and Blademaster, via SlitThroat, both requiring Heavy Wounds to apply so you will NOT get that easily in the fast paced engagements group combat especially revolves around), but timing is a factor. Burns focus could get the kill, if some of their focus was switched to that, TemporaryInsanity somehow switched to an Ice cure (baaad idea) else built off burn sources from Pyromancers, newmonks, etc, could get them closer to be on par with Glomdoring's bleed and mana synergy. Biggest issue is that, intentional I think, haphazard and chaotic design of their classes in general though. @Malarious, @Steingrim, @Dys as the primary experts more familiar with the nuances of Gaudiguch, best for you to help me out here for specifics, accuracy being more important than my outside observations.

    Illuminati -used- to be one of the best classes about until a certain envoy suggested nerfs to -intentionally- underpower the class in a what he claimed was a two step program to make Illuminati a less passive build. He removed the majority of passive build but failed to ever include new active building of insanity. Leaving Illuminati in a very bad place in terms of killing power. Add to this there are things like karma blessings affecting this insanity build and a bigger reliance on easily killed ents (including the 5 power temporary one) this class is probably on the bottom of the pile for killing. It does have some neat support skills though. Also compared to my playing Celestine, Nihilist, Moondancer and Researcher. Ent control of Illuminati is a lot more complex then the others I played (eg one small mistake or even delay on a command can instantly reduce your build to 0).

    Researchers actually got the skills that were removed from Illuminati for being to passive. And I would certainly place researchers well above Illuminati at this point.



    This envoy change was literally one of the huge reasons for my first retire from Lusternia. It was a sad day to nerf a class with no real representation. I do not mean that offensively as I think you may had some time issues or maybe you tried and didn't win. Either way this was the day I realized the old envoy system was a sham. 
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,918 Transcendent
    To respond to @Shango

    If Hallifax can ever cultivate the numbers, right now timewarp synergy is in a good spot (especially because of things like CrypticFlux in Tessenchi, RedRubato from Symphonists (huge cold damage when timewarp stacks enough), and just the raw build power available in Institute now).

    Aeromancers are on the fringe, but we knew that was going to happen before the rework, and we gave Orael the green light anyway. Aerochemantics, on the other hand, fits right in. Aeonics Sentinels provide another killswitch for Timewarp and steam affs besides with TemporalEdge. Tracking Sentinels provide a lot of utility.

    Bleed/manakill synergy is still superior, because as some people have alluded to, timewarp isn't a deadly affliction by itself, plus multiple classes have instas based on mana - more problematically, the mana damage coming out of Glomdoring forces an impossible choice between your vitals focus. An ego killer, or an Axelord, or an Aquamancy Preserver would have a field day with Glomdoring as an ally.

    But by no means is Hallifax a non-contender anymore.

    In the case of Magnagora, I think they were hit with a lot of nerfs and I don't think that their Nihilist rework had the same "security" that both the Night Twist rework and the Institute rework had. Deathmarks have diminishing returns (what????) while timewarp, tempinsanity and mana drains/bleeding stacks don't. Their balance loss stacking method was quickly targeted by certain envoys, removing another tool from their toolbox. The Wrack killpath is a little undertuned from when I last saw it in action.

    They have what they need to succeed, they just need these stupid restrictions that only apply to them to be removed. Also, bring back bal loss stacking - if it was okay for Bonecrusher Ectoplasm users pre-overhaul, it should be okay now.


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  • InnonInnon Member Posts: 152 Capable
    edited April 5
    Maligorn said:
    To respond to @Shango

    They have what they need to succeed, they just need these stupid restrictions that only apply to them to be removed. Also, bring back bal loss stacking - if it was okay for Bonecrusher Ectoplasm users pre-overhaul, it should be okay now.


     I think the decision to not stack balance loss hurt a lot more too, but Magnagora most. 

    Edit: Correction eq loss doesn't stack. Currently researching some of this .
    Post edited by Innon on
  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    Mag also gets touted as having this deathmark synergy and how great it is. It is so great, only 2/5 classes can even do anything to or with it, and that's only because ur'Guard have access to Necromancy. When it comes to the plague affs, only the Cacophony have a real way to make use of them, unless we're going to speak on the fringe case of maybe 100 bonus hemo if a Ninja hits a target with pox. But we have no real org themed synergy, the closest we get is, "Hey, ignore your killpath entirely and just focus on this one thing, while I do damage based on that." That's the summary of Mag's best combo (Ninjakari + BoneCrusher).
  • EveriineEveriine Wise Old Swordsbird / Brontaur Three Lakes, WIMember Posts: 2,909 Transcendent
    @Shango I keep my ear to the ground on many things, but unfortunately, combat synergy and skills is one of those things I was never able to grasp (which is why I have always sucked at combat).
    Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"

    Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.

    Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
  • ShangoShango Member Posts: 152 Capable
    Everiine said:
    @Shango I keep my ear to the ground on many things, but unfortunately, combat synergy and skills is one of those things I was never able to grasp (which is why I have always sucked at combat).
    :( Well. NOW'S the time to fix that. I feel like a bit of reworking across the board may be in order to fix things, so getting in while the forge is heating up, mm?

    Would a separate thread or threads for each orgs synergy spitballing be suitable, you all think? As detailed above...there are a lot of issues that have built up over the years. Addressing what they are, and ideas on maybe how to fix them, is the first step that really needs to be taken here.
  • InnonInnon Member Posts: 152 Capable
    Shango said:
    Everiine said:
    @Shango I keep my ear to the ground on many things, but unfortunately, combat synergy and skills is one of those things I was never able to grasp (which is why I have always sucked at combat).
    :( Well. NOW'S the time to fix that. I feel like a bit of reworking across the board may be in order to fix things, so getting in while the forge is heating up, mm?

    Would a separate thread or threads for each orgs synergy spitballing be suitable, you all think? As detailed above...there are a lot of issues that have built up over the years. Addressing what they are, and ideas on maybe how to fix them, is the first step that really needs to be taken here.

    I think each should have their own thread that way if we need to compile and either A. Create reports or B. Ask admins to do a sweeping "synergy overhaul". It will be easier if the info is not broken up. 
  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    Agreed on the splitup, please also have the opening post include your breakdown for that org.
  • DysDys Member Posts: 648 Fabled
    Thanks for the effort @Shango, this is a great idea and should be fun to discuss.
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