The Snowball Effect

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Comments

  • SynlSynl Member Posts: 123 Capable
    Innon said:

    Solution 1: Admin has forced alliance shifts prior in history. God disfavors for not attempting to compete for you own org? New mechanics that pit orgs against each other? The point is to come up with ideas. I'm not fond of this idea, but it's better than the status quo. 

    Solution 2: Maybe an MMR rating or even an instance where it allows even number or within a certain number of combatants to actually have the event. (This of course would have issues) I don't think there is a perfect solution. See my new Timequakes comment.

    Solution 3: Create more diminishing returns like on wounds and demon marks. Mana drains, health damage, etc having diminishing returns would be a step that could be taken, but again it would have some issues that would need to be worked out.
    1. The problem with an alliance shift is that you just lopside another alliance. If a single org is the problem, then the solution isn't a shift in alliance. It's... something else. Like mechanically locking conflict so only orgs who have won below a certain point can compete. If you win enough villages, you no longer can compete in them. If you won wild nodes last time, you cannot compete this time. Etc.

    2. Can't rank players on numbers alone. Like me being in a village is such a massive difference from like Tarken being in the village, that you can't base it on numbers alone. Hence the MMR suggestion, where players are scored on a variety of metrics to come up with a 'combat value'.
  • ShangoShango Member Posts: 152 Capable
    Sad but true....these discussions are never had in good faith, in the end. Those responsible know who they are, but point fingers at literally everyone else as 'at fault' time and again. Or derail the discussion anyway they are able.

    My advice? Carry on as best you are able, try to learn how to break past their mechanics and till you CAN....make Envoy reports, DON'T quit the game fully (cannot fix something if you and everyone else keeps bailing en masse), keep actively voting....honestly best to avoid most combat on their terms because it's just trolling and farming kills for their own ego (don't feed the trolls) rather than actual engagement. Play other games in the meantime, works well to relieve the stress. Develop the RP side of things more. 

    It's about all you can do at this point. Keep trying, but be smart about it, don't let them stress you, keep persisting till those in charge do something about it or don't and the game goes as it has been with only a select few really enjoying themselves, yet claiming everyone else is surely the problem for why it is the way it is.
  • EnyaEnya Member Posts: 382 Gifted
    It is worth noting that a thread looking at the status quo was INSTANTLY shifted to being a conversation about Glomdoring and the possibility/nonexistence of an admin bias.... by some glom players! 
  • SynlSynl Member Posts: 123 Capable
    Alright, you got me. I purposely derailed this thread because I tie my self value, as a real person, to how much the organization my character is in accomplishes. My ultimate aim, despite investing an unreasonable amount of money into the game, is to make it crash and burn. To ensure that this does not work, I suggest you start a new thread and I will not engage with it. I will not try to understand/discern the problem and form a fitting solution. If I do not engage with it, and hopefully no other members of 'the ones who support the status quo' engage with it, you will be able to come up with a solution and convince the admins to implement it, thus saving the game.
  • EnyaEnya Member Posts: 382 Gifted
    Your words.
  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    Synl, Enya wasn't even referring to this thread. Also, no need to be defensive like that or feel attacked. From what I read, the observation was made that the last few threads that have tried to address the status quo that got derailed.
  • SynlSynl Member Posts: 123 Capable
    Lycidas said:
    Synl, Enya wasn't even referring to this thread. Also, no need to be defensive like that or feel attacked. From what I read, the observation was made that the last few threads that have tried to address the status quo that got derailed.
    I don't feel attacked. I understand of course how it would be seen as a personal statement. I was more hoping satire would help highlight the inherent ridiculousness of the idea that 'the people who support the status quo' somehow want the game to fail. Like. It's nonsense to attack the players over this issue because of course the players WANT the game to be a game.

    The only way this view works is if you consider 'the people who support the status quo' to be somehow so stupid that they don't realize the game failing = their investments lost. And that requires a special type of arrogance.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,918 Transcendent
    I don't think it's arrogance that's leading them down this path, but delusion. Or, more likely, a huge lack of common sense.

    It turns out that griefing your opponents to oblivion actually means you don't get meaningful pvp and the game shrivels as a result. They're only Just Now realizing this.

    image
  • EveriineEveriine Wise Old Swordsbird / Brontaur Three Lakes, WIMember Posts: 2,909 Transcendent
    Winning in a dying game > losing in a healthy game


    Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"

    Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.

    Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
  • KethaeraKethaera Member Posts: 808 Transcendent
    Everiine said:
    Winning in a dying game > losing in a healthy game


    Depressing thought, but only true for some people. I didn't enjoy "winning" when no one was even trying to compete, and was just as close to quitting the game before I quit Glomdoring. Frustrating as it is losing all the time, I at least feel better about playing.
  • MinkahmetMinkahmet Member Posts: 72 Apprentice
    edited April 1
    Rancoura said:
    Ayisdra said:
    Synl said:
    [...]
    A number of retired players have answered why (either here or in other places (discord, private channels, etc)). Your side doesn't like(/believe) the answer and calls them toxic players that the game is better without.
    Besides, it was clearly obvious by the context of who the reference was to given the number of threads that devolve with this synonymous statement.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,136 Transcendent
    edited April 1
    Orael said:
    in all seriousness, this topic has been hashed out to death. The admins have decided to side with Glomdoring and maintain the status quo. Nothing is going to change.

    Move on.
    The admin deciding to maintain the status quo is absolutely false. A goal that I've stated multiple times is that I want everyone to feel like they can compete. That's the direction we're heading when we look at things like the mage revamp etc. It's something I think we achieved with the Aeonics rework and it's something we'll continue to work towards. We recently reworked two major complaint artifacts and are looking at a third.  We are making strides, but it takes time. We'll continue to make strides. 



    Prioritising a brand new conflict system over continuing in this "direction" really doesn't help the look of things. Reading over the forums, it seems as though what's coming next is another opportunity for the "winners" to extend their lead and for the "losers" to feel bad about themselves.
    If I'd had to deal with some of the bonuses being suggested while I was active, I'd be logging out the moment any raiding started.
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  • OraelOrael Member, Administrator, Moderator, Gods Posts: 240 Creator
    Saran said:
    Orael said:
    in all seriousness, this topic has been hashed out to death. The admins have decided to side with Glomdoring and maintain the status quo. Nothing is going to change.

    Move on.
    The admin deciding to maintain the status quo is absolutely false. A goal that I've stated multiple times is that I want everyone to feel like they can compete. That's the direction we're heading when we look at things like the mage revamp etc. It's something I think we achieved with the Aeonics rework and it's something we'll continue to work towards. We recently reworked two major complaint artifacts and are looking at a third.  We are making strides, but it takes time. We'll continue to make strides. 



    Prioritising a brand new conflict system over continuing in this "direction" really doesn't help the look of things. Reading over the forums, it seems as though what's coming next is another opportunity for the "winners" to extend their lead and for the "losers" to feel bad about themselves.
    If I'd had to deal with some of the bonuses being suggested while I was active, I'd be logging out the moment any raiding started.
    There's a thread for these kind of comments, feel free to comment there with your concerns!
  • RancouraRancoura the Last Nightwreathed Queen CanadaMember Posts: 1,464 Transcendent
    Minkahmet said:
    Rancoura said:
    Ayisdra said:
    Synl said:
    [...]
    A number of retired players have answered why (either here or in other places (discord, private channels, etc)). Your side doesn't like(/believe) the answer and calls them toxic players that the game is better without.
    Besides, it was clearly obvious by the context of who the reference was to given the number of threads that devolve with this synonymous statement.
    And the individual(s) being referenced speak(s) for the group as a whole? This is my point. Someone who has not been following every discussion / is new to the forums is not going to have that context but instead be presented with an unfavourable façade of an entire group, which is unfair. All I was asking for was that posters not generalize like Ayisdra did, which people have acquiesced to (thank you to those who have, it's much appreciated).

    Tonight amidst the mountaintops
    And endless starless night
    Singing how the wind was lost
    Before an earthly flight

  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,136 Transcendent
    Also, as far as evidence goes. 

    People aren't leaving due to some arcane reason that no one has ever brought to the forums, they're leaving due to all the stuff players have complained about over the years as the game has moved into decline.
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  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,136 Transcendent
    Orael said:
    Saran said:
    Orael said:
    in all seriousness, this topic has been hashed out to death. The admins have decided to side with Glomdoring and maintain the status quo. Nothing is going to change.

    Move on.
    The admin deciding to maintain the status quo is absolutely false. A goal that I've stated multiple times is that I want everyone to feel like they can compete. That's the direction we're heading when we look at things like the mage revamp etc. It's something I think we achieved with the Aeonics rework and it's something we'll continue to work towards. We recently reworked two major complaint artifacts and are looking at a third.  We are making strides, but it takes time. We'll continue to make strides. 



    Prioritising a brand new conflict system over continuing in this "direction" really doesn't help the look of things. Reading over the forums, it seems as though what's coming next is another opportunity for the "winners" to extend their lead and for the "losers" to feel bad about themselves.
    If I'd had to deal with some of the bonuses being suggested while I was active, I'd be logging out the moment any raiding started.
    There's a thread for these kind of comments, feel free to comment there with your concerns!

    The fourth comment in that thread expresses concern about it and then is dismissed.

    Actions speak louder than words, in the current context of the game the administration decided it was more important to add in yet another conflict mechanism rather than dedicating the dev time spent on that to bringing more equivalence across the orgs.

    If equivalence was the focus then would it not be the focus right now and be receiving the same "nothing can get in the way" treatment Timequakes is receiving?
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  • InnonInnon Member Posts: 152 Capable
    Synl said:
    Innon said:

    Solution 1: Admin has forced alliance shifts prior in history. God disfavors for not attempting to compete for you own org? New mechanics that pit orgs against each other? The point is to come up with ideas. I'm not fond of this idea, but it's better than the status quo. 

    Solution 2: Maybe an MMR rating or even an instance where it allows even number or within a certain number of combatants to actually have the event. (This of course would have issues) I don't think there is a perfect solution. See my new Timequakes comment.

    Solution 3: Create more diminishing returns like on wounds and demon marks. Mana drains, health damage, etc having diminishing returns would be a step that could be taken, but again it would have some issues that would need to be worked out.
    1. The problem with an alliance shift is that you just lopside another alliance. If a single org is the problem, then the solution isn't a shift in alliance. It's... something else. Like mechanically locking conflict so only orgs who have won below a certain point can compete. If you win enough villages, you no longer can compete in them. If you won wild nodes last time, you cannot compete this time. Etc.

    2. Can't rank players on numbers alone. Like me being in a village is such a massive difference from like Tarken being in the village, that you can't base it on numbers alone. Hence the MMR suggestion, where players are scored on a variety of metrics to come up with a 'combat value'.

    MeSynl said:
    Innon said:

    Solution 1: Admin has forced alliance shifts prior in history. God disfavors for not attempting to compete for you own org? New mechanics that pit orgs against each other? The point is to come up with ideas. I'm not fond of this idea, but it's better than the status quo. 

    Solution 2: Maybe an MMR rating or even an instance where it allows even number or within a certain number of combatants to actually have the event. (This of course would have issues) I don't think there is a perfect solution. See my new Timequakes comment.

    Solution 3: Create more diminishing returns like on wounds and demon marks. Mana drains, health damage, etc having diminishing returns would be a step that could be taken, but again it would have some issues that would need to be worked out.
    2. Can't rank players on numbers alone. Like me being in a village is such a massive difference from like Tarken being in the village, that you can't base it on numbers alone. Hence the MMR suggestion, where players are scored on a variety of metrics to come up with a 'combat value'.



    This highlights another problem. While Tarken may be good, I would not care to fight him one bit with even numbers. The problem is that there is this concept that one side's players are much better. However, if the other side is that much better then why are we even wasting time? It's obvious it's JV versus varsity (Sarcasm). Also, there are players that only fight when it won't result in their death. Nerf K/d. This makes them associated with winning. 


  • SynlSynl Member Posts: 123 Capable
    Hence a combat score suggestion. Tarken has combat value 5, so you could fight him with 5 people who are value 1. Etc.
  • OraelOrael Member, Administrator, Moderator, Gods Posts: 240 Creator
    Saran said:
    Orael said:
    Saran said:
    Orael said:
    in all seriousness, this topic has been hashed out to death. The admins have decided to side with Glomdoring and maintain the status quo. Nothing is going to change.

    Move on.
    The admin deciding to maintain the status quo is absolutely false. A goal that I've stated multiple times is that I want everyone to feel like they can compete. That's the direction we're heading when we look at things like the mage revamp etc. It's something I think we achieved with the Aeonics rework and it's something we'll continue to work towards. We recently reworked two major complaint artifacts and are looking at a third.  We are making strides, but it takes time. We'll continue to make strides. 



    Prioritising a brand new conflict system over continuing in this "direction" really doesn't help the look of things. Reading over the forums, it seems as though what's coming next is another opportunity for the "winners" to extend their lead and for the "losers" to feel bad about themselves.
    If I'd had to deal with some of the bonuses being suggested while I was active, I'd be logging out the moment any raiding started.
    There's a thread for these kind of comments, feel free to comment there with your concerns!

    The fourth comment in that thread expresses concern about it and then is dismissed.

    Actions speak louder than words, in the current context of the game the administration decided it was more important to add in yet another conflict mechanism rather than dedicating the dev time spent on that to bringing more equivalence across the orgs.

    If equivalence was the focus then would it not be the focus right now and be receiving the same "nothing can get in the way" treatment Timequakes is receiving?

    I said 'A goal', not the 'only goal.' Timequakes are being focused on because they address a few other major complaints, most notably the 'there's nothing to do' complaint. 

    I don't understand how choosing to focus on one thing means that anything else we state about our other intentions or other goals is suddenly false and not true, even when it's backed up by action (ie, aeonics report). I think this is a perfect example of the 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' phrase. No matter what we do, a subset of players will be upset that we're not doing something they want us to do.
  • SynlSynl Member Posts: 123 Capable
    Yea, that's pretty much what being an owner/admin is :P
  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    I can be wrong, but I believe Saran is talking about the initial pushback and groaning given for yet another PK event. The pushback and groaning, mainly, being from the players that feel there are bigger issues than not having enough ways to murder the opposition. Due to the perceived (Using this word specifically since it has been said as much by both players and admins until evidence can be supplied to show the imbalances) imbalances, many players are already not engaging in combat or other conflict mechanics simply because there is no point. So to them, yet another way to just have a loss rubbed in their face is being introduced.

    So the statements such as the ones that are being brushed aside, are valid to the people making them and to the people of relatable mindsets. It is a feeling of oppression to them and kind of just feels like you're shushing them all the while whispering, "Just let it happen." Whether that is the case or not, doesn't necessarily matter, because perception is what drives people's opinions. Therefore, if the perception is "they don't care about us" you're going to receive these kind of statements.
  • InnonInnon Member Posts: 152 Capable
    Synl said:
    Hence a combat score suggestion. Tarken has combat value 5, so you could fight him with 5 people who are value 1. Etc.

    Eh, this is literally saying that Tarken is 5 times better than the average person. I think this is really the viewpoint, and if that is the case then we will never be able to agree there is an issue. We will continue to put our heads in the sand, and ignore the dwindling "Halli/Mag/Seren". If only we would be positive and git good instead of moving on. The point is Hallifax/Mag/Seren has PvP population issues, so much so that I am ignoring playing my favorite Org because I don't want to further the divide. However, let's ignore the data and continue to allow this side to lose valuable players.  Winning by default is not a win in my books.
  • Daxi StrongleafDaxi Strongleaf Member Posts: 43 Apprentice
    It doesn't really matter if you are a nice person and not contributing to the (percieved) oppression of the rest of the game by a certain org, people are mostly going to lump you all together, or say 'Well, you're in the org and the org is oppressive so you're obviously not doing anything to stop it'.

    That's part of why I left Celest despite my love of Aquamancy, what Serenwilde thinks of her matters to Daxi, and unlike in previous times I was active, I had run out of excuses to tolerate the alliance with Glomdoring, plus it really felt like Celest has just gone full-on crusade, nothing matters as long as we win because we are the Light. (I'm not sure that is actually true of Celest, but it's what Daxi saw when she returned, a severe lack of something like the old Aquamancers guild that cared more about being scholars and sea-keepers than about the Supernals.)
  • KethaeraKethaera Member Posts: 808 Transcendent
    edited April 1
    Innon said:
    Synl said:
    Hence a combat score suggestion. Tarken has combat value 5, so you could fight him with 5 people who are value 1. Etc.

    Eh, this is literally saying that Tarken is 5 times better than the average person. I think this is really the viewpoint, and if that is the case then we will never be able to agree there is an issue. We will continue to put our heads in the sand, and ignore the dwindling "Halli/Mag/Seren". If only we would be positive and git good instead of moving on. The point is Hallifax/Mag/Seren has PvP population issues, so much so that I am ignoring playing my favorite Org because I don't want to further the divide. However, let's ignore the data and continue to allow this side to lose valuable players.  Winning by default is not a win in my books.
    You gotta love the idea, though, that not only does our side have 5 people to send against Tarken, but one additional person for each member of Glomdoring or Celest or Gaudiguch that show up, so it'll be "even". I mean... Jesus. If we could do that, there would be no problem at all. It's almost as if one side is entirely divorced from the reality of what being on the other side is like.

    Honestly, Innon, I wouldn't worry about the divide at this point. PVP doesn't exist, and no one wants it back.
  • InnonInnon Member Posts: 152 Capable
    Lycidas said:
    I can be wrong, but I believe Saran is talking about the initial pushback and groaning given for yet another PK event. The pushback and groaning, mainly, being from the players that feel there are bigger issues than not having enough ways to murder the opposition. Due to the perceived (Using this word specifically since it has been said as much by both players and admins until evidence can be supplied to show the imbalances) imbalances, many players are already not engaging in combat or other conflict mechanics simply because there is no point. So to them, yet another way to just have a loss rubbed in their face is being introduced.

    So the statements such as the ones that are being brushed aside, are valid to the people making them and to the people of relatable mindsets. It is a feeling of oppression to them and kind of just feels like you're shushing them all the while whispering, "Just let it happen." Whether that is the case or not, doesn't necessarily matter, because perception is what drives people's opinions. Therefore, if the perception is "they don't care about us" you're going to receive these kind of statements.


    Timequakes looks amazing in concept. However, I doubt I will participate regularly because it will be getting jumped by more people, so it is literally just going to be another buff to make the snowball larger.  I actually dread the release of it because I will want to test it out, but our side will be grossly outnumbered. More often than not Glom/Gaudi/Celest has at least 2-3 more than Halli/Mag/Seren. There was one domoth I remember that we had more. We won that domoth. It wasn't that the others needed to git good. They were outnumbered.
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