Org Class Synergy-Magnagora

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  • ShangoShango Member Posts: 156 Capable
    'Magnagora=Bruising, dust, mana' A suggested idea I had for possible focuses for the orgs to take with these ideas. However upgrading Deathmark to be assisted by more than the 1.5 classes able to apply and use it, gaining something themselves off it, certainly is a great idea as well.

    Bruising is rough to build anyway, though it's the closest to real synergy Mag possesses right now...dust stacks are great and all, but you'll never kill with them, and the only reason they're joked about as the synergy focus is due to allow Deathmarks TO stack. But again...1.5 classes (Nihilists, and Necromancy tert Ur'guard only) can apply or use them, so doesn't really scream any level of synergy there with the rest of Mag left in the *ahem* dust. So yeah, Makai's suggestion seems to be a good step in the right direction here.
  • MakaiMakai Member Posts: 413 Adept
    Hopefully these get some attention and conversation can start.
  • MakaiMakai Member Posts: 413 Adept
    edited April 12
    Ran some tests with Nihilist and my Gods are they neutered, no wonder they don't exist for combat. Who's bright idea was it to envoy away any offensive pressure they have!? Even their so-called kill method of Excruciate into Wrack or health kill is entirely TOOTHLESS! At a very modest 6 resistance to Excorable damage, it only dealt 1117 damage per demonmark. For context, their COSMICFIRE was dealing 1300. We're charging 5 power for less than cosmicfire damage. But people will say that Excruciate is for mana drain! We tested that too, a whopping 1585 mana per demonmark. Even 3 marks doesn't put me below half, and I'm level 86 and 7/13 for mana buff for this test. Either demonmarks need to do percentage damage or get scaled way up, because it takes a while to build those marks and 5 power to even use it.

    EDIT: https://pastebin.com/hq89LRfH

    The pastebin has 1 demonmark health test, 2 demonmark health test, torture, and 2 demonmark mana test. We found that each demon mark gives a flat effect of drain, thus my numbers in the post.
  • ShangoShango Member Posts: 156 Capable
    A lot of whining happened with the new Demon Marks being introduced about passive applications, despite the very superior passives possessed by others not mentioned here. So it got nerfed to the point you're seeing in your testing. Log it and make a report with said log to prove the inviability, will make it easier to fix.
  • KalnidKalnid Member Posts: 552 Fabled
    Three marks drops you below half and gives a long enough stun that without interruptions you can wrack off it. Issues are dealing with regen and other mana sources like sprite, and getting a paralyze/entangle. Torture's trash though.
  • MakaiMakai Member Posts: 413 Adept
    Torture did almost the same damage as 2 demonmark excruciate did. And no, it does not stun long enough for wrack. The stun lasted like 1 second and easily sipped up before they could do anything again.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 6,753 Transcendent
    edited April 12
    Edit: I tried to edit this post to add a sentence and somehow ended up with a duplicate post instead.  The original post in its entirety is below, and the added sentence is referenced with an "edit" tag.
    Post edited by Xenthos on
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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 6,753 Transcendent
    Shango said:
    A lot of whining happened with the new Demon Marks being introduced about passive applications, despite the very superior passives possessed by others not mentioned here. So it got nerfed to the point you're seeing in your testing. Log it and make a report with said log to prove the inviability, will make it easier to fix.
    When did they get "nerfed"?  I do not recall that.  There was a lot of discussion about the stacking potential.  Danquik stated that he was going to submit a report to make it so that if you had two Luciphage marks (as an example) you would only be hit by the passive of one.
    However, he ended up reconsidering and I think the matter got dropped there.  I do not remember any actual nerfs applied.  You do, however, need more than 2 marks to be effective with them.  It has been a while since I saw them used but they were pretty darn strong with the burst drain and stun, there were a number of wracks being applied after implementation.
    Can you do some logs of tests with more marks applied, please? (Edit: This last bit here is to Lycidas!)
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  • KalnidKalnid Member Posts: 552 Fabled
    Xenthos said:
    When did they get "nerfed"?  I do not recall that.  There was a lot of discussion about the stacking potential.
    Duration on marks was dropped from 30s+ to 25s, deathmark dim returns were put in. At full blast a nihilist has four different sources applying deathmark every five seconds plus their active, you hit diminishing returns whenever two sources apply within a two second window. The problem should be apparent.
    Anyway, dude's wrong, you can wrack people off three marks with only a little trouble. Don't get me wrong, nihilist has a suite of issues and I could make a full special report on things, but being able to kill someone once you get three marks on them isn't one of them.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 6,753 Transcendent
    Deathmarks apply to the Crucify route.  I mean, yes, definitely part of the overall discussion but I am not sure of the applicability to Demonmarks specifically?
    Self-applied diminishing returns seem like a separate issue and I can definitely see some concerns there.  I think that is what you were trying to get at, but if I am missing a connection between the two I would like to know.
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  • MakaiMakai Member Posts: 413 Adept
    3 demonmarks did 52.5% of my max mana and gave me a 3 second stun. My natural regen tick kicked in and took me above threshold before the stun wore off, much less I was able to sip again before they could act. Three marks simply won't cut it for Wrack attempts unless you are working with 2 or more Nihilists...in which case, in the same time it takes to build 3 you might as well build 5 for overkill.
  • KalnidKalnid Member Posts: 552 Fabled
    @Xenthos Demonmarks apply deathmarks (three per tick before dim, one after). Deathmarks are used primarily for crux, but also provide a variety of other benefits to necromancer (reduced power costs, ranged succor, a couple of things scale with them). Nerfing demonmark's deathmark application (can we rename demonmarks to brands? thanks) means that a nihilist is that much more likely to not have those benefits. It's not like they directly modify excruciate's damage or stun though.
  • MakaiMakai Member Posts: 413 Adept
    Not sure what you find amusing, @Kalnid. The fact that I regen'd before they got balance back or? You're entering the same pettiness level of a few other posters while trying to argue against presented facts.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,979 Transcendent
    I think logs would be a great help here to settle this matter rather than getting into a stupid argument.

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  • MakaiMakai Member Posts: 413 Adept
    When Innon hops on today I'll get another log for the 3 mark test. I did put logs though in my earlier post. Each demonmark was doing 17.5% of my max mana, 1585 each. Considering I have a high mana regen and the tick is rather quick, I easily regen'd past it. I'll either edit this post or post again if necessary when Innon is about to test.
  • SynlSynl Member Posts: 179 Adept
    Could quickening be used first in order to recover in time to wrack? What is the power cost on each ability, ie. Is that even possible? What is the demon afflicting with during this time, ie. Could you force sip (doesn't luci give dominate?), Excruciate, wrack?
  • KalnidKalnid Member Posts: 552 Fabled
    Excru/wrack is 10p by itself, quickening doesn't last nearly long enough to regen the power it'd use. You can force sip(but it won't matter because you recover eq before they leave stun), you can invest powersink. There's multiple ways around the regen tick.
  • MakaiMakai Member Posts: 413 Adept
    edited April 13
    So we tested again to see if I could be Wracked immediately, and what do you know, my findings are still accurate. Innon's eq time was 2.97 seconds and my stun timer was 3.1 seconds. However, a regen tick occurred between being hit with Excruciate and Innon getting EQ and thus I was out of danger, and immediately sipped back to green .13 seconds after being hit. Here, have a looksie. - https://pastebin.com/XLee9tWU

    So people are aware, this is just Excruciate by itself. It could work moving into Wrack if demon powers were changed and other forms of mana drain were used. Considering this was a test to see how strong Excruciate is by itself. The damage for the health option could use a little help, but the mana is spot on doing roughly 17.5%-18% per mark.
    Post edited by Makai on
  • OraelOrael Member, Administrator, Moderator, Gods Posts: 349 Creator
    edited April 13
    Try a musicbox
  • MakaiMakai Member Posts: 413 Adept
    Yes, that would do it. They would have to obtain one and they could alter what powers they were using, as stated. What has also been stated is this was specifically testing Excruciate. The damage could use a little help, but the mana is fine with proper kit and usage.
  • ShangoShango Member Posts: 156 Capable
    Just remember logs will help a LOT with these threads....preferably from more than one engagement to void out outliers. More data, the better idea we all can get on just what does need and can be fixed.
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