Melder Revamp

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Comments

  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,158 Transcendent
    Synl said:
    Sorry, I didn't mean my statement as a jab or an otherwise snide remark. I literally was not present for the discussion/rants that took place that lead to wanting melding revamped. So I don't know what people's central issues with the melding system is. My problem is more that druids suck right now because allergies suck, sap sucks, etc.

    To recap: overall system = sure, no opinion one way or the other. Specific abilities = not a fan.

    I like the current system of melding, I also like this node system. I like this system more because of the changes like multiple melders being able to bond to a meld to use some abilities and the ease of melding (5 commands vs... however many currently).
    For some context, I think it goes back to when the northern alliance was still a thing and maybe on top?

    I believe around then melds breaking on death and effects only hitting adjacent rather than demesne-wide were implemented. Which, from memory, were because the first melder in was securing the objective and it was an overwhelming advantage? But then like, through the nerfs I remember comments about it being more effective for the melder to just stand adjacent to the fight rather than being actually in the room.

    And then it seems like a decision was made to do the overhaul so melders stopped being touched on in reports (addressing allergies, sap, etc was all part of the overhaul afaik).


    So like, how do you make something that's territory control, where you're not (nearly) completely locking out people of the same class (or allies with the same archetype), without reinforcing the fortress meta, but without also making the class meaningless. The list that comes to mind seems to be pretty contradictory tbh.
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  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,158 Transcendent
    So it's out there, this seems like we're potentially just ending up with the same issue. If being in the same room as your avatar means your death kills the node then wouldn't the primary, and even the second, melder just hang out away from the fight cause you could just create a brand new node the moment the other one was down.

    Which in turn is another one of the complaints (afaik) that the system encourages melders to not directly participate.
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  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 2,016 Transcendent
    I thought the biggest issue for groups was the "oh no they have a full meld in their big area and we don't we don't have a chance to push in unless one of us classflexes to melder"

    I've heard a comment like that from every side and from almost every player who doesn't play a melder.


    As long as the new system brings in a way for non melders to fight back and push in without a melder at a reasonable pace then that really solves the overall group issue.

    The other big issue is "Most melder classes don't have much of a viable kill due to how the overhaul changed stuff. "

    So on an individual level melders need a rework to get their stuff viable and interesting.


  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,158 Transcendent
    Deichtine said:
    I thought the biggest issue for groups was the "oh no they have a full meld in their big area and we don't we don't have a chance to push in unless one of us classflexes to melder"

    I've heard a comment like that from every side and from almost every player who doesn't play a melder.
    Sounds like the biggest issue for groups is that people don't want to play melders, so yeah you're going to have issues.

    Also this reasoning is why melders had the repeated nerfs such as dropping on death and effects only hitting in the one room radius. Which, from memory, encouraged the play style I mentioned of being adjacent to the fight because the downside of being in the room as the number one target wasn't really matched with an upside. Not exactly the most fun thing which likely only exacerbates the issue of no melders readily available.

    If the outcome of the revamp is that things are mostly the same it's just easier again for non-melders to remove a meld then you might as well just delete melders rather than waste the time.
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  • OraelOrael Member, Administrator, Moderator, Gods Posts: 264 Creator
    edited May 26
    There were a few major issues with melders that are being addressed.

    1) The requirement to have a melder in order to compete
         - By giving multiple ways to break the meld and reducing the ability to have unbreakable rooms, you should be able to compete easier even without a melder.

    2) Fortress melds
        - All nodes are breakable in multiple ways, unbreakable rooms have significantly reduced offensive potential (since effects will not bypass protection in those rooms). 
        - Breaking a node removes potentially larger swathes of the meld rather than needing to break each room one at a time. 

    3) Issues with multiple melders
        - By allowing meld bonding, multiple melders of the same spec can be useful and have things to do.
        - The penalty of death is less severe with nodes passing to a secondary melder, encouraging multiple.

    As far as encouraging the melder to sit away - the reason that was such a viable tactic was that you could have unbreakable rooms with your offense running. Meaning the only way to break that room was to go through that room to get to a breakpoint (which wasn't always strategically possible) or kill the melder. Additionally, the risk of dying was much greater to the melder, encouraging them to be less risk-averse. That's why that strategy was so prevalent.

    Now of the 3 ways to break the meld, killing the melder is likely to be the hardest (compared to a 5s channel or killing a mob). Each node is breakable and any unbreakable room, as noted already is severely hampered offensively, where you want to be able to strip protection in order for it to have an effect. We're including motivations for the melder to be in the room rather than sitting one room away. The penalty for dying is also less severe in that you can pass off the meld to other melders. The worst-case scenario is we add some kind of cooldown before the melder can re-raise a node once it's broken via the other two methods, but I don't know that it'll be an issue at this point and necessary.

    The major point is that the outcome will not be the same.

  • MakaiMakai Member Posts: 316 Capable
    @Saran Not to mention that one of the mage's most potent abilities, PhantomSphere, requires you not to be in the same room so that it can attack. So with target avoidance and one of their better strategies encouraging them, they have no reason to ever stand in the room with actual combat going on.

    Yes, one of the big complaints was that it almost required another melder to be present to work your way in, but if we're going to continue with how this system works, then honestly we're still going to require melders. Let's not forget that we just got revealed to us that every room is going to have effects, including rooms without nodes. Sure, just bring a Scroll of Protection, but there are meld effects right now that break that protection. Are those going to be looked at?
  • OraelOrael Member, Administrator, Moderator, Gods Posts: 264 Creator
    edited May 26
    What effects strip protection?

    As far as I'm aware, the only way to strip protection outside things like lowmagic spring is a melder stripping it.
  • SnaldSnald Member Posts: 95 Capable
    Snald said:
    Sorry if this was already covered, would melders from different specs be able to work together in some way? For example a druid and an aquamancer? Also how would the way chem/woods mesh with melders change?
    This may have been missed because it was at the end of the last page.
  • OraelOrael Member, Administrator, Moderator, Gods Posts: 264 Creator
    Snald said:
    Snald said:
    Sorry if this was already covered, would melders from different specs be able to work together in some way? For example a druid and an aquamancer? Also how would the way chem/woods mesh with melders change?
    This may have been missed because it was at the end of the last page.
    melders from different specs won't be able to work together outside the same way they kind of work right now.

    chemwoods won't be changing at this point and will likely just continue with the same effects they have currently.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,158 Transcendent
    Orael said:
    Now of the 3 ways to break the meld, killing the melder is likely to be the hardest (compared to a 5s channel or killing a mob). Each node is breakable and any unbreakable room, as noted already is severely hampered offensively, where you want to be able to strip protection in order for it to have an effect. We're including motivations for the melder to be in the room rather than sitting one room away. The penalty for dying is also less severe in that you can pass off the meld to other melders. The worst-case scenario is we add some kind of cooldown before the melder can re-raise a node once it's broken via the other two methods, but I don't know that it'll be an issue at this point and necessary.

    The major point is that the outcome will not be the same.

    The only motivation I'm seeing mentioned right now is that they get to become the primary target for whatever group is in there, then when they get focused to death they also lose that node. And if the later "fix" implemented they have to be in the room so they're not punished.

    Passing off is cute and all, but I imagine any melder without the artifacts wouldn't be bound in unless absolutely necessary because they wouldn't be able to maximise the meld with their limited node count which just increases their buy in.
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  • OraelOrael Member, Administrator, Moderator, Gods Posts: 264 Creator
    edited May 26
    Do you mean that a melder may want to risk being targetted to keep a meld up? Rather than the current scenario of the best way to keep your meld up is not to risk it? 

    Do you mean that having to face the enemy to do your part is a bad thing? That we should encourage no risk scenarios that let them use their entire offense without the threat of death?

    If that's the case, then I'm going to disagree with it. If a melder wants to maintain their meld, there should be inherent risk associated with that. They shouldn't be able to sit aside and let things run without facing the potential of being a target. There should always be an inherent risk when participating in combat. 


  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,158 Transcendent
    edited May 26
    Risks should be matched with rewards, as is already demonstrated the reward of having one extra person doesn't outweigh the risk of losing the meld. Really looks as though rather than looking at positive reasons for why players should play a certain way it's just negatives. 

    The only thing melders seem to be "getting" out of this so far is to be brought closer to but still lesser than other classes with the whole second melder thing. (I look forward to "So I don't get to meld today cause this ally has an extra melder online" or variations on that)
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  • OraelOrael Member, Administrator, Moderator, Gods Posts: 264 Creator
    edited May 26
    I think maintaining a node and your offense while preventing your enemy from placing their own node and their own offense is a pretty positive reward. Sitting to the side so your enemy has an easier time breaking it seems more negative to me.

    I guess it's all in how you look at it. 
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 2,016 Transcendent
    The way I understand how Orael is explaining it Saran is that melders will be more like other classes in that they'll have to be there and active to have the max impact, they'll still most likely be the strongest range classes about still but thats fine.

    They wont be the 100% best target to kill any more because melds won't be the behemoth unbreakable ground control they are now.

    I'm also assuming that each melder will have a viable kill route built into their solo set up. Even if its as slow as warriors or something. As long as they get it. That's one of the big things that puts people off playing the class. Sure you are super duper useful for group fights but outside of playing a support role you don't get much solo oomph to spar and have kill with on your own.

  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,930 Transcendent
    edited May 26
    Curious if Aeromancers and Pyromancers will be able to get something like liquidform/fleshstone/serpent so that they're able to not be instantly murdered for walking in.

    I also think, probably contrary to what other people think, that these timequakes have been highlighting the weaknesses of melds even as much as they show their strength. With the right team composition, even something like the Aquameld has proven to be able to be bulldozed through, or more often have its melder picked off multiple times and thus rendering the meld useless. The only way to avoid being picked off is to play extremely passively, which I don't think is fun for either side.

    EDIT: And for those curious about the origins of the meld rework, that was the crux of the issue. That the best place for a melder is to stand adjacent and tend to their meld rather than actually be in the fight and use more than just POINT STAFF <person> <direction>. Nodes will force them to be in the fight, else they'll lose the meld and possibly a lot of rooms besides - but survivability needs to be a consideration in new!melds as well, I think. Furthermore, Hartstone (which used to be the best meld) fell down a couple of tiers as the Overhaul passed through, and Blacktalon melds got even worse than they already are (I personally ranked them 6th even before the OH). So special attention to druids was a big part of helping. Pyromancers also pretty much can't Cremate. Geomancers don't have a clear objective other than the occasional Chasm, which fluctuates in usefulness as time goes on (i.e. people will fall for it if it's been a while, then they'll be really anal about countering it at which point it has to be shelved for a while so people forget about it).
    Post edited by Maligorn on

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  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,158 Transcendent
    edited May 27
    Deichtine said:
    The way I understand how Orael is explaining it Saran is that melders will be more like other classes in that they'll have to be there and active to have the max impact, they'll still most likely be the strongest range classes about still but thats fine.

    They wont be the 100% best target to kill any more because melds won't be the behemoth unbreakable ground control they are now.

    I'm also assuming that each melder will have a viable kill route built into their solo set up. Even if its as slow as warriors or something. As long as they get it. That's one of the big things that puts people off playing the class. Sure you are super duper useful for group fights but outside of playing a support role you don't get much solo oomph to spar and have kill with on your own.

    That's already true though, a melder in the room brings whatever is left in their primary plus their secondary and tert but that doesn't outweigh the risk of being in the room. 

    The second part is an assumption, killing the enemy's primary melder would also be about letting your melders fully participate in the fight by getting their node raised and in turn you're also likely hampering the effectiveness of the other enemy melders. 

    The third as noted is also an assumption, you could also make an assumption that the kill route would involve the meld, particularly given that's a common thing. Which loops back to the previous bit where killing the meld could shutdown progression towards the kill for the secondary melder(s).
    Post edited by Saran on
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  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,930 Transcendent
    While it has been clarified that this is mostly just for melds, I'd like to plug in a request to get a good look at Telepathy. It is a completely outdated tertiary with nothing particularly appealing about it, especially when held in the same light as Dreamweaving. Basically anything Telepathy can do, Dreamweaving can do better - not only does DW have more offensive pressure and viability egokill-wise, it also brings a ton of utility to the melder.

    I think also Ecology needs admin scrutiny - when I mention Telepathy and Ecology it's because I don't think they can be solved in a timely manner through regular channels (i.e. report system). But career druids can comment more on Ecology if they have a different opinion.

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  • EnyaEnya Member Posts: 388 Gifted
    edited May 30
    I think that's pretty much correct.

    There are some things in Ecology that could conceivably be patched through regular channels (as certainly there must be in Telepathy) but too much of the overarching conceit of the skillset was double wrecked by the Overhaul and the effective (and soon actual) loss of sap. For both druids and bards it's a real one trick skillset, and those few tricks have been progressively nerfed, whittled down to nothing.This isn't because they were too strong per se, but more that the mechanics were a poor fit for modern lusternia. The only way to force them through the Overhauling process was to smush them flat. 

    I threw around some ideas for doing it via the regular channels, but dropped it when I totally lost faith in the current (on the way out) reporting system and the capacity for people to rally behind changes for a skillset they don't personally benefit from. I think that either some kind of administrative-led rework or possibly a Special Report style mass-reporting cycle could do wonders in bringing the skillset into modernity. 


    EDIT: what eco (and telepathy) look like really is a function of what the overhaulled melders look like. My hope is that the actual melds will be dramatically reduced in importance, with more actives and more design space opened up for interesting primary/tertiary strategies. Either out of the gate, or as a function of forward thinking design that allows for those changes through "normal channels" to the primary skillsets. 
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,158 Transcendent
    Seems like this could be an opportunity to add some general info on what is the objective of x combination of skills and how does it achieve that to help files for melders at least.

    Like...
    General info: this is your kill objective
    Primary: you wanna focus on this sorta thing
    Secondary: this maybe doesn't directly help but keeps you alive
    Tertiary: you wanna focus on this sorta thing

    It seems helpful to people starting out and provides something to envoy around.
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  • ShangoShango Member Posts: 153 Capable
    Side thought on this whole matter. These nodes will draw lines between each other, taking the shortest path, right? Well currently, melders hold such influence by being able to hit side rooms that branch off...a lot of areas (especially Timequake zones) just do not have a lot of straight line paths. Won't this node setup also hinder some of the control offered by mages, or is that part of the point, diminishing their value as a necessary requirement for major combat situations?
  • MakaiMakai Member Posts: 316 Capable
    edited June 6
    They draw the shortest path to another node, yes, but it doesn't mandate straight lines. So not really diminishing control, and just requires thoughtful placement of the nodes. We have another problem though, currently the proposed system blocks breaking the node by the melder being in the room, which is fine. However, do they have to be in phase? Will they be allowed to essentially sit in costume and hold that node? Also skills like Aquaform and Stoneflesh for Aqua/Geo let them remain physically in the room, but unable to be targeted etc. So a melder of the Aquamancy variety could, with this proposed system, stop someone from killing the avatar or another melder channeling to break, by walking into the room and using Aquaform. What counters Aquaform? Breaking the meld! But....wait....
  • SynlSynl Member Posts: 133 Capable
    What is the argument against it being breakable even if the melder is in the room? My take is that the avatars will be hard to kill. So if a group is going for the avatars, theoretically the defenders aren't being hindered. Which is a pretty decent boost.
  • MakaiMakai Member Posts: 316 Capable
    No argument has been made for it to be breakable even if melder is in the room. But wouldn't make much sense in current or proposed system for it to work that way. Just address the methods I listed that could effectively make it invulnerable and we'd be fine.
  • SynlSynl Member Posts: 133 Capable
    I feel this direction is going to be pretty fortressy. What with serpent and then minor things like Squall. Imo make avatars vulnerable even with melder in room. If your team is hitting an NPC for 2+ balances, they are already pretty significantly disadvantaged.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,158 Transcendent
    The avatar disappearing is a "reward" for the melder actually going into the room where the fight is happening.

    The thing that keeps coming to mind is that these changes seem to be aligning the archetype more to being a "tank". (i.e they have functionality that makes the enemies likely to want to be taking them down first.)

    Having abilities like liquidform and fleshstone makes sense if you treat them as/make them a defensive cooldown, it's really just a matter or balancing/viewing their skills as tanking rather than support/dps.
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