Remember this comment when arguing against my symph-metawake report. Songs are easier to time against than fae and have multiple methods to avoid them.
And lol, monks crippled in groups, please
It's like comparing apples to oranges.
Monks make me cry. It would be awesome to figure out a way to balance them in the slightest
(Though, I think Nekotai are in a good place. I don't know too much about Shofangi, but they don't seem ridiculously bad off from what I've dealt with.)
No, it's not. You are saying that a perfectly viable strategy to prevent SDs from performing their kill strat is to strategically shield or hinder at the right moment. Exact same principe applies.
Shielding at the right time isn't counter play which is unique to SD. It's something which is viable against every spec that does not have a built in raze.
The unique counter play to SD in this circumstance is to kill the pooka. Each time it is resummoned, it must be ordered to attack, then hit the target, and then your order is ready.
Do I think it would be cool for bards to have a special kill condition for each spec? Heck yea. But sleep strats are inherently very, very powerful. As a bard, you can actively pressure all three of health, mana, and ego without waking someone. Not to mention that while sleeping, they can't eat earwort and it would be ridiculously easy to perpetuate the sleep lock as a symphonist. It's just something they don't need. Also, does the passive mana use of meta wake inflict mana barbs damage? If so, it's a definite no. I would probably be okay if it had a 25% chance to strip kafe instead of meta wake. That would give a neat give-and-take against symphonists. Choose to keep metawake up and suffer the passive damage, or choose to forgo it and risk being caught in a heavy sleep lock.
Heck, wiccans are too freaking realiable with the insta sleep lock they've been handed. I just don't think it's something that needs to exist for anyone. I just don't know of a way to move wiccans away from it without making the ents way too powerful.
How is it any easier to perpetuate a sleeplock than having a pixie? Pixie hits faster and isn't stopped by earwort/love (love ticks while sleeping too).
I agree and have stated how Wiccan sleeplocks are easier and more reliable. I don't really see much difference, or why it matters that bards can pressure health, mana and ego compared to wiccans pressuring mana. The issue being that wiccans can kill at 50% mana and bards only at 100% health.
There is no point to have it strip kafe instead, they can already strip it readily whenever they want.
Anyway, the point is you agree with me that shielding/hindering is a viable way to avoid timed actions.
Yes, crippled in groups. Can they grapple? Sure. But most targets will be dead before you get to anywhere near useful momentum. You are either grappling or "not being a team player" and going after someone else. This is about the equivalent of being a demigod spamming web. Compared to those who get their full offenses available, a monk is the least interesting in groups.
Monks are in a generally good place right now, the exception being Ninjakari bleeding (numbs were fixed last report I believe). Tahtetso do not have their cheese, Nekotai pay in full for hardlock attempts, and shofangi can't spam their old hardlocks. No one has reported any monk issues other than the bleeding stacking too fast for NJ (which is an issue with bleeding runes in part, we are talking to Roark bout that).
Burst classes (wiccans/guardians) are by far scarier than most, because when you are shut down you are probably about to die. Most of those classes are also very hard to kill, whether with stall skills (noprep ectos) or direct mitigation (healing, foresight, etc). I think SD is scarier than MD, but MD -do- get sleeplock faster at less, and that was proven awhile ago by... what was his name, I wanna say it started with a C.
If there is desire to move away from momentum, it sounds like the new system could easily be changed for that, then we are just warriors that are more based on affs (like most guilds) and not so much wounds.
No bards need metawake stripping. None are based purely on needing sleep. Symphonium have it as a +1 to aeon is all (bardians, ho). Climax is still stupid powerful, and the lust given in climax was a poor choice, especially when the new casting time means you will -always- outpace REJECT. Lust should always have a power cost, and require timing to stick, not spamming till you outpace.
<blockquote class="Quote" rel="Silvanus">Mugwumps break Nhilists more then anything else, something I've been drumming about since I became one.<div><br></div><div>The past 10? years of IRE, in just about every class I've ever been in, speed will always win 1v1.</div><div><br></div><div>If you were a Knight in Achaea/Aet that wasn't a Rajamalan, you were doing something wrong.</div><div><br>If you were an Occult/Indorani that was something other then Raja, Grook or (Aet only) Kelki, you were doing something wrong.</div><div><br></div><div>If you were a Snake that wasn't a Rajamalan, you were definitely doing something wrong.</div><div><br></div><div>If you are a Guardian/Wiccan class and you are not a Mugwump, you are definitely doing it wrong.</div><div><br></div><div>I would -love- to get beyond this.</div></blockquote>
This actually gave me an idea depending how they implement affs.... after all, the issue is all affs are given outright, so faster speed means more affs, what if higiher speed races also dealt less affs? Hmmm.....
Yes, crippled in groups. Can they grapple? Sure. But most targets will be dead before you get to anywhere near useful momentum. You are either grappling or "not being a team player" and going after someone else. This is about the equivalent of being a demigod spamming web. Compared to those who get their full offenses available, a monk is the least interesting in groups.
Monks are in a generally good place right now, the exception being Ninjakari bleeding (numbs were fixed last report I believe). Tahtetso do not have their cheese, Nekotai pay in full for hardlock attempts, and shofangi can't spam their old hardlocks. No one has reported any monk issues other than the bleeding stacking too fast for NJ (which is an issue with bleeding runes in part, we are talking to Roark bout that).
Burst classes (wiccans/guardians) are by far scarier than most, because when you are shut down you are probably about to die. Most of those classes are also very hard to kill, whether with stall skills (noprep ectos) or direct mitigation (healing, foresight, etc). I think SD is scarier than MD, but MD -do- get sleeplock faster at less, and that was proven awhile ago by... what was his name, I wanna say it started with a C.
If there is desire to move away from momentum, it sounds like the new system could easily be changed for that, then we are just warriors that are more based on affs (like most guilds) and not so much wounds.
No bards need metawake stripping. None are based purely on needing sleep. Symphonium have it as a +1 to aeon is all (bardians, ho). Climax is still stupid powerful, and the lust given in climax was a poor choice, especially when the new casting time means you will -always- outpace REJECT. Lust should always have a power cost, and require timing to stick, not spamming till you outpace.
<Quote of Silvanus here since the formatting didnt come along>
This actually gave me an idea depending how they implement affs.... after all, the issue is all affs are given outright, so faster speed means more affs, what if higiher speed races also dealt less affs? Hmmm.....
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EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
That's not monks being mechanically crippled in groups. That's players wanting something specific from monks. That's like saying warriors are crippled in groups because everyone wants them to pinleg.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
I don't know what you're talking about, I died twice to tahto insta in a raid just the other day. I don't really believe you in that they can't build momentum because I've seen them do it. There's several solutions to get around this. Some of which I know you personally use, like targeting someone else while the group targets another person. Yeah, I'm not with you on this one. Tahto cheese is still alive and well, just in different forms (this time with hemi/collapsedlung spam).
So no, monks aren't really in a 'good' place, they're still pretty crazy.
I think SD is scarier than MD, but MD -do- get sleeplock faster at less, and that was proven awhile ago by... what was his name, I wanna say it started with a C.
I don't see how? MD sleeplock is extremely barebones and is a perfect example of how terribly the guild is designed for having to rely on it. That cheesy sleeplock is pretty much the only thing that works, and it's a stupid, stupid mechanic. That said, SDs have access to every component of it, and most hexen guardian guilds have most of it, only lacking pixie.
Anyhow, I'd rather we moved away from insta-shutdown tactics (including sleeplocks). It'll be great if people could fight back for most of the battle and make meaningful progress.
As far as monks go, they all have their crazy things.I will agree though that all classes except bard and warrior have a way of dealing with monks to some degree. The major reason for this is that either they can get a full offense going while still being able to run and remain untouched for a large part of the fight, or they can completely stop you in your tracks. Any class that must stay in the room the entire time and slowly build something will have a bad time unless they have unreasonable hindering that works on the way to their kill.
I think SD is scarier than MD, but MD -do- get sleeplock faster at less, and that was proven awhile ago by... what was his name, I wanna say it started with a C.
I don't see how? MD sleeplock is extremely barebones and is a perfect example of how terribly the guild is designed for having to rely on it. That cheesy sleeplock is pretty much the only thing that works, and it's a stupid, stupid mechanic. That said, SDs have access to every component of it, and most hexen guardian guilds have most of it, only lacking pixie.
MD Hexen sleeplock is the quintessential sleeplock and does not rely on pixie at all. All a sleeplock is, at its core, is an ordered metawake off + a 'triple sleep,' with aeon to give you enough of a buffer to resleep someone before they put insomnia back up. A hexen can achieve a 'triple sleep' without having to sleep three times in succession, as they can silently remove insomnia under vapors. Moon as access to a pretty easy aeon, as well.
However, this is a known thing. The problem with what you've said is that only MD Hexens need to rely on a sleeplock. At its very base, MD combat is about sticking Succomb, which is cured by eating reishi. Looking through the skills, skill times, and mana drain formula/tic rate for Succomb, it's more than easily possible for a Healer to, by properly tracking their aurawarp tics [which are 100% static and predictable], keep an opponent from eating any herbs for a long enough period of time to bring someone's mana to toadable levels. You do, however, have to worry about sipping and scroll healing. Once you factor in the drain from banshee and ability to aeon reliably, it can be pretty easy to see how a Healer MD can lock someone out of curing their mana well enough without having to resort to shifting neurosis and timing a sleep enchant + beast sleepcloud + pixie tic. There don't seem to be any MD Healers around who are practiced enough to do this, though, so it's not something that we see readily happening. That said, this tactic in particular is something that would take a lot of practice, patience, and finesse to execute (though, that's a good thing, considering how powerful defensively Healers are across the board. I'll also point out that SD Healers have a similar problem in that, even though they have access to twist, they don't have access to Succomb. This leaves them at an awkward place where anyone above 9,444 mana is logistically impossible to kill under perfect circumstances [and also the problem that, with particular vitals curing priorities [don't ask me, I don't know how some people cure them so stinking well], the proper timing with final twist can be close to impossible to pull off]).
And then you have Astrology. For any Astrologer, you pretty much have to let your opponent decide when they want to die. SDs have a slightly easier time with final twist. Much like any other Astrology, you bait your opponent into using a moderate balance, cast your meteor, impede movement with [final twist/crucify/that thing that knocks you off balance that Researchers have/that thing illuminati do that makes you lose a butt ton of EQ on a failed movement out of the room {I think this might have gotten nerfed while I was away, but I'm not sure}/Inquisition], then line a damage attack with the meteor. MDs, on paper, don't really have the necessary skills to reliably keep someone in place long enough for a meteor. Snoefaasia definitely helps, but they're missing that solid setup that a lot of other Astrologers have.
This is why, all in all, I think MDs are in a pretty solid place. All the math lines up to make them a pretty powerful guild.
Edit: Just had Zouviqil help me test it. Succomb does, in fact, cause its mana drain upon affliction. Each tic drains 15% max mana + (200 - a flat amount based on your targets skill in high/lowmagic [200 at transcendent, meaning if you cast succomb on someone with trans highmagic, each tic deals 15% mana drain, but someone with inept highmagic will take 15% + 200 flat]). This means it's a 15% drain on application, a 15% drain three seconds later, and then a 15% drain once every 3-5 seconds until cured. It's also a delayed cure, and it can take while you're curing it [if you eat reishi right before succomb would tic, succomb will still tic before the affliction is cured].
Edit edit: All of this said, I 100% agree. Sleeplocks are stupid and shouldn't be a thing anyone can do.
plus passive manadrain from redcap bleeding, in addition to the pooka and banshee. It made me feel like I had all the powah and was entirely overpowered vs people who were not transcendent in magic (was separate from lowmagic at the time). I can't remember what combination of hexes I used, and we didn't have beastmastery, but in conjunction with redcap bleeding, pooka, banshee, succumb, and a combination of hexes I could toad someone in 20 seconds. It's good that we don't have it any longer.
I would agree the sleeplocks are probably bad. Locks that also stop offense in general are bad, no one wants to have to sit and wait on curing, with the chance of outright dying. Not a fight if you can't attack.
@Synkarin I have said before I target someone different purely because that is the only way it will lead to something on my end. Only very survivable targets will live long enough for me to do something. This is why I like beating on kelly, trueheal doesnt kill momentum, so I can expect to get to mo 5 when she trueheals! In my case that is a need for more available at lower momentum (only ones without a low mo grapple still sadly). Actually the lack of early actions might be Neko specific (ninshi/yank, tahto hemiplegy, etc). Anyway, if you consider an overhaul where we would base more on building up AFFS, potentially instead of mo, we would then have full offense in groups and not be so limited. I like my 1v1, I even like my 3v3, but once the group gets fairly large it gets harder to build unless you ignore the group.
@Rivius It is more so I have little I can do early on, grapple is the best choice, although sometimes I sneak poisons depending on the target. Although i'm thinking it is time for a return of the stealth ganks!
As to the other monk things noted:
That wouldn't be cheese. Nekotai can do something similar. That is just an unexpected combination of affs (when designed) with the byproduct of keeping you prone, but hemiplegy itself was noted as a possible issue (early on spam), that falls to the envoy to handle though.
Warriors should never fight monks if they have any choice in the matter. Dodging, tattoo armour, and various specialized skills just to screw with warriors in tandem with here and there hindering (my tendon sets me back 2 mo, but sets you back 4s) make it an uphill battle against anyone who knows what they are doing. I asked about possible ways to resolve this issue though, after noting the various defenses we had in simple ideas, but no one replied. That was interpreted as either not an issue, or no one had an idea.
Bards will vary. Obviously the aeon whore monks fare better than say a minstrel might (tmk they have nothing to stop us), spiritsingers with their off eq can do a number on momentum though they are getting periods to stall, so they have to make them count. Harbingers crowcaw will buy them time, on top of bal loss song as well. Every bard gets dodge too.
Most bards have a way to kill pacing and get the time they need. Will they do it? No idea. Will a bard relying on aurics kill you? Currently? Probably not. Not taking a dig at bards, I honestly think that is a design flaw that they were made to rely on staying in one room.
For completions sake, full list of "screw warriors" monk things off the top of my head (ignoring affs):
* Kata - Deflect. Imitates trueshield, including the massive wound reduction on the "shielded" arm. Something like an 80% reduction on that arm. This was the most eyed possibility for change because we could make it generally useful.
* Acrobatics - Dodge. Everyone loves dodge right? That's why they gave an improved version of it with no cooldowns to aeonics... right?
* Nekotai - Scorpiontail. If we dodge your weapon attacks, we prone you for it. So first hit goes into stance you are prone for the second.
* Psymet - ForceSymm. The infamous "why do I even try" skill. After getting past armor and deflect you are still splitting wounds, which sucks for most people if you have to target a limb.
* Springup/bonedensity/etc. More selective in who dislikes them, but generally still annoying to try to fight off.
The thing about MDs is that Moon itself has few offensive skills to help hold someone in place aside from Wane/Succumb - you can't get access to things like vapors/blackout unless you take hexes, whereas SDs get it through Night, and then can take a tertiary which stacks powerfully with it. I love the RP to death, but combat-wise we just don't have anything to hold someone in place (aside from taking Hexes, but I argue that if you HAVE to be a certain tertiary to be good, that robs players of meaningful choice.)
(clan): Falmiis says, "Aramelise, verb, 1. adorn with many flowers."
Off of the top of my head from the Harmony side of monks:
Harmony - Chuuti - Change to peace on hit. Works over other monks/1h warriors a bit more than the 2h ones, but eh.
Harmony - Angphet (10 dmp vs blunt/cutting) - Not warrior specific, but they'd be the ones most screwed by this
Acrobatics - Elasticity - Less damage to attacks that target specific limbs, hi warriors/monks
Acrobatics - Handstand - Dunno if it's actually useful, other than for buying time for some reason, but insta dodge any physical attacks.
Acrobatics - Tripleflash - Dodge put on crack. Granted, it's 10 power, so can shut down other options for offense, but for surviving/stalling/defense, not too shabby.
Psionics - Psiarmour - Obviously available to all psi users, but since monks are generally the only ones that actually lock channels...
Edit: Oh, and tattoo armour. Can't forget tattoo armour.
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
Wait, am I reading the Monk argument correctly--monks are crippled because they kill things too quickly, before they get to their REALLY powerful stuff?
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
I think it's more in a group fight, a target will die too quickly from your group mates before monks get to the really powerful stuff.
Dunno about that. Try solo getting someone to 12 vessels before someone else that's simply hitting for damage kills them. (Never mind the bit that your bleeding will stack with someone dishing out damage too and that vessels tend to be prioritized over wounds healing so they'll be sipping health while warriors build for the behead)
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
The thing about MDs is that Moon itself has few offensive skills to help hold someone in place aside from Wane/Succumb - you can't get access to things like vapors/blackout unless you take hexes, whereas SDs get it through Night, and then can take a tertiary which stacks powerfully with it. I love the RP to death, but combat-wise we just don't have anything to hold someone in place (aside from taking Hexes, but I argue that if you HAVE to be a certain tertiary to be good, that robs players of meaningful choice.)
SDs have the exact same positional power as MDs. The only difference is leglock on fifth twist and the stun on seventh twist. However, until then, we have just as much stopping power as MDs.
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If you were an Occult/Indorani that was something other then Raja, Grook or (Aet only) Kelki, you were doing something wrong.
I agree and have stated how Wiccan sleeplocks are easier and more reliable. I don't really see much difference, or why it matters that bards can pressure health, mana and ego compared to wiccans pressuring mana. The issue being that wiccans can kill at 50% mana and bards only at 100% health.
There is no point to have it strip kafe instead, they can already strip it readily whenever they want.
Anyway, the point is you agree with me that shielding/hindering is a viable way to avoid timed actions.
I'd have hit you already, but been dealing with other stuff and didn't feel like it.
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As to the other monk things noted:
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You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
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