Combat Overhaul

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Comments

  • Neos said:
    Try being Runist/Dreamweaving Aquachemancer(I lol'd) I'd include Telepath, but Telepathy has the assured stun and chance to stun(from the same skill).
    Uhh... what?
  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    He is implying that Telepathy is bad except for the stun.
    image
  • Oh. That says chemancer.
  • That is sad Shuyin, but fair enough.

    I always leave an open door for monk stuff, and so far we have addressed anything labeled an issue brought to us.  We poked steingrim about looking at hemiplegy, but no one ever officially said its a huge imbalance thing.

    I Just wanted to hear more about the overhaul, cause I have ideas and plans and plots on fixing things (I know, Mal, with ideas about how to fix something, you are all shocked, SHOCKED).

    Wish we had more topics that got general discussion though.
  • Malarious said:
    That is sad Shuyin, but fair enough.

    I always leave an open door for monk stuff, and so far we have addressed anything labeled an issue brought to us.  We poked steingrim about looking at hemiplegy, but no one ever officially said its a huge imbalance thing.

    I Just wanted to hear more about the overhaul, cause I have ideas and plans and plots on fixing things (I know, Mal, with ideas about how to fix something, you are all shocked, SHOCKED).

    Wish we had more topics that got general discussion though.

    Double hemiplegy on demand is a huge balance thing.

    There, I said it.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens.
    Making Bomir'rak non spammable, and changing the chestpain cure to mending would probably kill off a lot of the Tahtetso cheese.

    Also speaking of Hemiphlegy, Tahtetso are the only class in game who can use a 2h weapon without the use of one of their arms.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy
    edited September 2013
    You know, just because someone isn't throwing out a bunch of alternatives doesn't mean something isn't a problem. For example, a lot of the monk antiwarrior things should just be deleted. That's it. Done. But we don't really do deletions like that in the envoy system so we'd need to be creative and find ways to attenuate it or replace it with something good. That's the problem. Same goes for their general crazy things.
  • You can't move chestpain to mending or how do you achieve it?  There wouldn't be a setup for it unless the condition was like broken/crushed chest.

    Is there sufficient desire for a monk thread? I assume we will eventually get this one marked as derailed if we focus on one thing too long.   Since each "screw warriors" skill would have to be handled separately, tahtetso are their own thing, etc.  All fall under "monks" though. Someone can start a thread if its needed, I wont make one, I don't want to be the person to always make them.

    @Morkarion  Cavaliers, Pureblades, and Axelords are the only ones who can ignore some arm specific affs without effect because of how they are handled (we found this out when I was talking with ixion and we found the issue with why those three specs seem to get screwed against monks).   It's not a bug so I can say it, it's been envoyed mind you.   The "two handers" all use FULL balance when attacking instead of both arms, so they ignore things that increase loss of arm balance for example, but that also means their balance loss stacks if they writhe, while you dont increase arm balance if you writhe.
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here
    Malarious said:

    You can't move chestpain to mending or how do you achieve it?  There wouldn't be a setup for it unless the condition was like broken/crushed chest.


    Is there sufficient desire for a monk thread? I assume we will eventually get this one marked as derailed if we focus on one thing too long.   Since each "screw warriors" skill would have to be handled separately, tahtetso are their own thing, etc.  All fall under "monks" though. Someone can start a thread if its needed, I wont make one, I don't want to be the person to always make them.

    @Morkarion  Cavaliers, Pureblades, and Axelords are the only ones who can ignore some arm specific affs without effect because of how they are handled (we found this out when I was talking with ixion and we found the issue with why those three specs seem to get screwed against monks).   It's not a bug so I can say it, it's been envoyed mind you.   The "two handers" all use FULL balance when attacking instead of both arms, so they ignore things that increase loss of arm balance for example, but that also means their balance loss stacks if they writhe, while you dont increase arm balance if you writhe.
    So what you're saying is that hemiplegy only affects full balance actions and not arm actions? that might be a good switch too, change hemi to only affect arm balance, not full balance and only prevent standing if you have hemi on both sides

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • DaraiusDaraius Shevat The juror's taco spot
    Isn't this discussion pointless before we have any idea what the new system is going to look like?
    I used to make cakes.

    Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
  • The discussion is based on current things, no one knows anything about the overhaul to say anything either way on it.

    @Synkarin That isn't quite what I meant but it seems applicable enough. Except the problem is that you ARE always hemi'd on both sides isn't it?  Or are you getting a window? No ones given me a log of fighting a Tahtetso who used it, so I assume they are sticking both then stacking herbs to keep you from curing, I could of course be wrong since they need a window to go for insta.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens.
    Malarious said:
    You can't move chestpain to mending or how do you achieve it?  There wouldn't be a setup for it unless the condition was like broken/crushed chest.

    Is there sufficient desire for a monk thread? I assume we will eventually get this one marked as derailed if we focus on one thing too long.   Since each "screw warriors" skill would have to be handled separately, tahtetso are their own thing, etc.  All fall under "monks" though. Someone can start a thread if its needed, I wont make one, I don't want to be the person to always make them.

    @Morkarion  Cavaliers, Pureblades, and Axelords are the only ones who can ignore some arm specific affs without effect because of how they are handled (we found this out when I was talking with ixion and we found the issue with why those three specs seem to get screwed against monks).   It's not a bug so I can say it, it's been envoyed mind you.   The "two handers" all use FULL balance when attacking instead of both arms, so they ignore things that increase loss of arm balance for example, but that also means their balance loss stacks if they writhe, while you dont increase arm balance if you writhe.
    I'm not talking about balance here, if one of your arms is ineffective due to hemi, broken etc etc etc you cannot use a 2h weapon, it requires both arms to wield. The exception to this is the Tahtetso staff, if they lose one arm they can still wield the 2h weapon.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • Fucking Jedi sentinel cheese
  • There's no point to not talk about balance. Combat is mechanics over RP. If it is balanced for a Tahtetso to be spinning somersaults in triple circles and singing a song while being paralysed, then so be it.

    It is, however, not balanced for something like double hemi to be so easily spammable without a viable counter. If you think having it stopped by a broken arm is a viable counter, I'd say it's not a bad idea to try to get that implemented. Either way, though, it's a balance issue and not an RP "They're holding a 2h weapon but can swing it without both arms available, this makes no sense" issue. Nerfing the effects of hemiplegy would be a nice change too, though I'm not sure if any warriors use that often enough to be impacted by it.

    With the exception of double hemi, monks are not viable at low momentum, period. As a monk, there is no choice but to dash to 5mo. At 1.7s per form, (fastest speed possible, only to faeling/aslaran) in order to reach 5mo requires five hits, and only on the sixth hit will the combat truly start for the monk. That's a total balance time of 8.5s assuming zero hindering, no misses/rebounds/parries (yes, we miss just as much as warriors). In large group fights, not many can take the entire group's hits for 8 seconds. Most midbies die in two damage balances (destro balance 3.5s, most cast balances 3-4s) at the most, if not one. If we hit the same target as the team, we not only do not get to build momentum, we lose momentum, because switching targets has a momentum penalty. Not as bad as the old days, of course, thankfully. Those who can survive for more than 10s of actually being targetted and hit, are usually top tier combatants, or truehealers, and sometimes not even those, depending on the matchup. Such outliers will, of course, die that much faster if there's a monk that is hitting them.

    The impact a monk has on a group fight boils down entirely to who he chooses to attack. A monk who wants the kill goes for someone (anyone) not targeted by the group. In the 8.5s (10+ for non faeling/aslaran) it takes to build momentum, he must believe in his group mates' ability to fight without his contribution. In return, he gets a free kill on whoever he was wailing on... assuming his target is one he can kill alone. Tahtetso can probably take down anyone, unless the target wisens up and leaves or switches target to hinder (victory for the Tahtetso's team either way). Not so for the other three monk guilds. None of the other three have a guarantee'd insta. The Ninja's is the next most possible, but it's been nerfed before, so I'm not sure if it's still viable. On the other hand, If a monk chooses to hit the same target as his team, he has zero choice but to use hindering grapples which don't build momentum, because there's just no point in building momentum, and also because actual momentum building forms usually don't contribute much damage or hindering (with the exception of double hemi, of course). Vanilla grapples no longer build momentum, and for the Nekotai at least, there is no low-mo spec grapple. The Tahtetso can double hemi, the Ninja can use numbs, though I'm not sure if that has much impact in a group, but the Shofangi and Neko will need to grapple, because there is nothing else they can do. (I think there's a Shofangi spec grapple that locks the legs and can prone if allowed to finish? Not sure if that's available at low mo.)

    Now this is not a bad thing. There are many other classes who are reduced to being a permanent, free web enchant in large group fights, simply because that's the most effective thing they can do. The same simply applies to monks: building momentum is, in most cases, a waste of time in large group fights, unless you have a way to do it while hindering at the same time, and a guarantee'd insta at the end of it, grappling to stack writhes on the target is usually of far more value to the team. And three out of four monk guilds fall into this category.

  • Mostly what Lerad said with some exceptions.

    Your recovery time of 1.7s is wrong. (Report 508). 

    Also, you don't unwield with a broken arm, all monks have gripping.  Attacking with a broken arm is actually not new, Ninjakari do the same thing. Because it is being used "one" sided.  The form attempts and fails if the first action is a broken limb, otherwise the action using a broken limb fails. So you can get arm/fail/kick.

    Shofangi are equally likely to use bullsnort, off eq requiring concentrate for free (skill in phantasms costs power).

    Like I said, if there is alot of monk things, make a thread. Otherwise poke an envoy about it! They can choose to monkish it if you come to them directly.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens.
    Again you're missing the point. All other Monks use 1h weapons, so if you break their left arm for example, they can still swing with the weapon in their right. The same is true for Blademasters and Bonecrushers, if you render one arm useless, it doesn't stop them from swinging with the weapon in the other arm.

    For Knights with 2h weapons, if either arm is broken/hemi/amp'd/anythingelseunderthesunthatstopsyouswinging, you can't use a 2h weapon. However the Tahtetso staff that is also 2h'd can be used despite one arm being aforementionally crippled in some way or other.

    They shouldn't be able to use the weapon at all if one arm can't perform function, same way 2h Knights can't.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • Ninjakari use a two-handed weapon.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens.
    Kio said:
    Ninjakari use a two-handed weapon.
    I thought the chain was 2x 1h. I stand corrected then on Tahtetso being unique in that, still daft that you can use a 2h weapon when you're missing an arm entirely.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy
     I agree. Positive that's not a bug?
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens.
    Rivius said:
     I agree. Positive that's not a bug?
    Intended it seems, it's up there with being able to use a pogo stick without arms entirely.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens.
    edited September 2013
    Edit: Wrong forum, derp.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • Let me get this straight you think a two handed weapon that checks one arm at a time is bugged? 

    I think what you really want to ask is if it is "two handed" or "each hand". 

    All two handed warriors also currently use FULL balance, not arms, which you always fail at using for attacks if you have the break.

    This is not a bug, because you hit with each end of the tahto, which responds to one hand per.
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here
    Malarious said:
    Let me get this straight you think a two handed weapon that checks one arm at a time is bugged? 

    I think what you really want to ask is if it is "two handed" or "each hand". 

    All two handed warriors also currently use FULL balance, not arms, which you always fail at using for attacks if you have the break.

    This is not a bug, because you hit with each end of the tahto, which responds to one hand per.
    Which if that's the case, then ideally with hemiplegy, at least one attack should fail, but if I'm understanding Mork correctly, it doesn't.
     
    This is why I brought up my hemiplegy point earlier because I actually understood what Mork was going for and extrapolated your response into saying that maybe hemiplegy isn't affecting arm balance and thus the change I suggested. This is assuming that unlike PB/Cav/AL, Tahtetso and Ninjakari use arm balance for their 2h attacks rather than full balance. I now realize this is wrong because BM/BC can use the unaffected arm without issue.

    It would still be an interesting change, and I think 2h weapons (monks included) should be affected by the same afflictions equally. If you can't move 1 arm, it's a whole lot harder to move the other arm to effectively strike with a tahto.

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens.
    edited September 2013
    Malarious said:
    Let me get this straight you think a two handed weapon that checks one arm at a time is bugged? 

    I think what you really want to ask is if it is "two handed" or "each hand". 

    All two handed warriors also currently use FULL balance, not arms, which you always fail at using for attacks if you have the break.

    This is not a bug, because you hit with each end of the tahto, which responds to one hand per.

    Replying sentence by sentence: Yes. It requires two hands to wield it, if both arms are not in a position to wield a weapon, it shouldn't be usable.

    It's a two handed weapon, if it was in each hand it'd be two one handed weapons. As is it requires two hands to wield, you can't wield it + something else.

    I don't know how many times I need to tell this to you but balance is irrelevant in this. I could chop the left arm off a cavalier and off a Tahtetso (or Ninjakari) The Cavalier can't strike because he gets told that a two handed weapon requires (surprise surprise) two hands to use. The Monk can still use their right hand attack with the weapon.

    See point 2. Yes each arm attack uses a different point of the weapon, but it still requires two hands to wield, try it yourself with a big stick or something similar, you'll find you use both arms for each swing or jab.



    Edit: When 2h Knight specs move over to arm balance, this discrepancy will still exists. Knights will require functionality and mobility in both arms to utilise their weapon, this is not an "oh but you use full body balance instead of arm balance" issue.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • No monk can use a crippled arm, but the other limbs work as expected.

    Unless there is something going on, yes, hemiplegy will stop attacking on the limb with hemiplegy.  That is if you use right arm, left arm, left leg and your left arm has hemi, that arm fails but the other arm and kick still work.  If the right arm is unable to work however, the attempt to use a form fails (this is true with anything stopping a limb, if the first limb cant be used the form doesnt work).

    Cavs/PB/AL are the outliers here, and have a report up because of them behaving differently.  That said, because they are using single hits, I expect hemiplegy will still stop them from attacking, although I could see it reducing their wounds but that would screw you more than not attacking in some cases.

    Overall I think hemiplegy should just not stop stand, except "lower hemi", as hemiplegy is an arm targetted maneuver.  This would also stop it + collapselungs from being a very long term prone. It is debtable if it should stop use of the arm it is on, as that would basically render the affliction useless if it stops nothing.  I would say have it weaken the attack, but like I said, that would probably be worse than stopping it in most cases (only in times you have to wait on regen would you want to MAYBE attack into it and I would argue you probably shouldnt).

    Can we just have some afliction reform now?  I didn't post my "current system fix" because I think the overhaul may be required and could do a lot of good, but we could easily have some reform on the current stuff to balance out such outliers.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens.
    Synkarin said:
    Malarious said:
    Let me get this straight you think a two handed weapon that checks one arm at a time is bugged? 

    I think what you really want to ask is if it is "two handed" or "each hand". 

    All two handed warriors also currently use FULL balance, not arms, which you always fail at using for attacks if you have the break.

    This is not a bug, because you hit with each end of the tahto, which responds to one hand per.
    Which if that's the case, then ideally with hemiplegy, at least one attack should fail, but if I'm understanding Mork correctly, it doesn't.
    No, if you take out one arm by whatever means, they can't attack with that arm, the other arm however attacks as normal using a 2h weapon, despite only having functionality in one arm.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens.
    The only concern with changing hemiphlegy based on the strength of it on one class itself is that it's also used by Blademaster/Pureblade Knights, and certainly not with the reliability and spam-ability of Tahtetso. I'd rather see a change to Bomir'rak than to the affliction overrall.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • Thought I'd show you this:

    diagnose
    You are:
    paralysed on the left side.
    paralysed on the right side.
    blind.
    deaf.
    an insomniac.
    You have 5 afflictions.
    (acorn): Afflictions tracked and updated.
    [96288.08|100%h|100%m|100%e|10p|100%en|100%w] Blrxkdb<>- (psd)


    You have recovered equilibrium. (0.65)
    [96288.94|100%h|100%m|100%e|10p|100%en|100%w] Belrxkdb<>- (psd)

    kata perform Stein raze
    You attempt the Kata form of raze (momentum: 1).
    * ka raze stein left
    Your left arm must be free.
    You are unable to continue executing your Kata form.


    smoke 123215
    You take a long drag off a glowing pipe.
    Your left side tingles as feeling returns.
    You have cured hemiplegyleft.
    [96430.97|100%h|100%m|100%e|10p|100%en|100%w] Belrxkdb<>- (psd)
    (+54h)
    cleared: hemiplegia left


    You may eat or smoke another herb. (1.65)
    [96432.83|100%h|100%m|100%e|10p|100%en|100%w] Belrxkdb<>- (psd)

    kata perform Stein raze
    You attempt the Kata form of raze (momentum: 1).
    * ka raze stein left
    The illusion cast by Steingrim's solstice dragon mask ripples and falls away, revealing him.
    You thrust a clawed fist towards Steingrim, ripping at the air before his face.
    You raze Steingrim's aura of rebounding with a clawed fist.
    (acorn):  Target rebounding dropped.
    * ka tahto stein lleg right
    Your right arm must be free.
    You are unable to continue executing your Kata form.
    Your momentum increases.

    Notice it not only stops the use of that arm balance, but also anything remaining on the form (the kick).  From what I understand all monks work like Blademasters/ Bonecrushers..single arm balance regardless of if their weapon is 2h or 1h.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens.
    edited September 2013
    Yeah, Malarious already pointed out that first part, though I didn't realise it stopped a form dead from the moment a limb fails. I just dislike the discrepancy between Knight and Monk 2h'ers where one requires two active arms to use and the other can be utilised with only one functional (assuming that arm wasn't the one that opens up your Kata form, seriously that's silly. Why can't it just skip the missing action?)

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • Because the tahto staff and ninjkari chain might require two hands to wield but only one hand to use? That would be my guess. Performing an action with 2h monk weapons only requires one arm while 2h warrior weapons takes both, that's why they are on different balances. I don't really know mechanics and stuff that well, but but that'd be my guess.
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