I'm starting to think this Combat Overhaul isn't necessary or at least that combat will trend here again after the overhaul. I've been playing for a tad over two months now and I'm trying to get into combat so this issue is immediate and affecting for me.
What I'm finding is a lack of clear documentation. The help files haven't kept up with complexity or they're so difficult to navigate that they add to the frustrations. I can give many examples if requested and I've started sending IDEAs each time I have trouble finding something. Also, the game's low population means it's not always possible to get answers to your questions when the help files aren't helpful.
It seems like the game designers are trying to maintain a veil of secrecy. I can't see every AB list. There's no help file that lists afflictions. The skill entries in the AB outputs aren't complete. There is no help file that leads to the changelog, that I could find. Several subjects just don't have a help file. Perhaps newbies would have an easier time understanding combat were less hidden from them.
I don't think the wheel needs to be remade, only described a little better.
Improving access to information and documentation would certainly go a long way to helping people better understand combat, but it does nothing to address the many mechanical imbalances and other tomfoolery that experienced players are more familiar with. Documenting those imbalances won't fix them, and we've been progressively adding and subtracting things from this system for so long that it has become a bit of a mess - there are too many skillsets, too many afflictions, too many cures, too many interactions between all three of those things, and too much disparity between archtypes... these are the things that the overhaul will (hopefully) address that improved documentation, alone, cannot.
A lot of those documentation problems stem from there being a limited pool of people who can edit help files, who generally have multiple things going on, and can't necessarily dig out all the inconsistencies a new change will make in the (relatively HUGE, compared to other muds) body of help files. TYPOing things helps documentation, even if it takes a long time for the missing or wrong information to actually be fixed.
Guardian/Wiccan classes need a massive rework. Possibly melds need to go. Outlier stats like people running around at 18k+ hp need gone. Certain other aspects need looking into... like the capability of an acrobat to dodge a telekinetic attack that's happening within their own body. One would think sudden movements when I'm squeezing someone's heart would actually make the damage worse, not ignore it completely. Certain guilds (that I won't name) need to receive a massive nerf while their envoys are busily envoying more buffs. I'd say we need a reset switch pronto, because there are situations where all I can do is look at people and point staff at them because if I do anything with longer balance, I'm as good as dead. Not going to say that the documentation issue doesn't exist, but for someone who's been around for 2 months and is just 'starting to' get into combat to claim that there's no issue when people with years of experience are saying otherwise is rather presumptuous at best.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
I strongly disagree that Guardian/Wiccan classes need a massive rework. With the total number of afflictions being cut in half, they'll be brought more in line. Warrior offence and Monks overall are in need of a larger rework to the core class mechanics than Guardian/Wiccans.
Melds do need to go though.
Do agree that some envoys are too busy focusing on improving their own class than make the changes needed for sake of balance.
Edit: Also no one has 18k HP on a permanent basis, it requires using a lot of short term cooldowns to reach. It's like the people who have 13k ego for Justice Seal.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
If you ask me, I like how warriors work. I'd actually leave them pretty similar if it were up to me, except for getting rid of some of the useless affs that no one wants and replace them with something at least moderately useful. Warriors are honestly how every class should be - sufficiently challenging to play and having clear strengths and weaknesses. One thing that'll be beautiful about this rework is if we do have affliction-levels as Estarra described and each class can be unique in the ones they reach, we can balance warriors and monks separately without having to worry about accidentally buffing one or the other (which is as I understand why it's being done this way). As a warrior envoy I've found it extremely frustrating to want to tweak the way certain affs work and know that it'll just end up being overpowered in the hands of a monk. In fact, this is exactly why we need this rework and it'll allow us to take a lot more things into consideration when designing classes, so older ones like warrior don't end up in the dirt with every new fancy thing that comes out.
Lusternia really needs this, honestly. There's too many problems that we can't really fix piecemeal through the envoy system.
The statistics change is also something I'm excited about since it makes it easier to balance h/m/e values and makes races slightly more on even footing. If you ask me, we still need a larger racial rebalancing since the previous ones were horrible jokes, but that's for another topic.
Warriors are honestly how every class should be - sufficiently challenging to play and having clear strengths and weaknesses.
I'm gonna have to disagree with you, at least in the current iteration of the game. To properly play a warrior, your skill level must exceed that of your opponents in all instances and then you must get lucky. This is not another dig at RNG, however. The problem here is that the skill level it takes to play a warrior is inherently higher than any other class, requiring you not only to completely understand your own class and your opponent's, but also their curing and their stance/parrying. Frankly, if warriors were just a smidgen easier to play without being horrendously broken, the 'need' for high-level artifacts wouldn't be there any longer.
Don't take this as me saying we should make the current iteration of warriors easier to play, because that's not what I'm trying to do. I will, however, say that the combat overhaul will most likely make warriors inherently easier to play. And frankly, that's gonna be a good thing.
I strongly disagree that Guardian/Wiccan classes need a massive rework. With the total number of afflictions being cut in half, they'll be brought more in line. Warrior offence and Monks overall are in need of a larger rework to the core class mechanics than Guardian/Wiccans.
Melds do need to go though.
Do agree that some envoys are too busy focusing on improving their own class than make the changes needed for sake of balance.
Edit: Also no one has 18k HP on a permanent basis, it requires using a lot of short term cooldowns to reach. It's like the people who have 13k ego for Justice Seal.
I did say outlier stats. But anyway, things being reworked means that a lot of classes will likely change a lot. Current guardians/wiccans -need- to change a lot, that is all I'm saying, as I'm arguing the point of the need for the combat overhaul over someone claiming that a few extra help files might solve the balance issues that exist presently.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
The complexity of lusternia combat.. more so the viability of actually using your skills to win brought me here. I love that about this game and the staff's involvement with the playerbase. That makes this far better than any IRE i've played. However, like you guys mentioned. It's terribly hard to break into. There's the wounding system, the power system, the curing system where several cures cure several affs on different balances. It makes this sooo hard to do or start doing rather. Though, watering it down I just would suggest being careful to not water it down too much. Achaea is an example of too watered down. The pk is dreadfully boring there because they've "equalized" everything. Then updates happen and for a while one class is viciously overpowered and everyone switches class.. it's like musical chairs. I would hate to see that happen here.
The complexity of lusternia combat.. more so the viability of actually using your skills to win brought me here. I love that about this game and the staff's involvement with the playerbase. That makes this far better than any IRE i've played. However, like you guys mentioned. It's terribly hard to break into. There's the wounding system, the power system, the curing system where several cures cure several affs on different balances. It makes this sooo hard to do or start doing rather. Though, watering it down I just would suggest being careful to not water it down too much. Achaea is an example of too watered down. The pk is dreadfully boring there because they've "equalized" everything. Then updates happen and for a while one class is viciously overpowered and everyone switches class.. it's like musical chairs. I would hate to see that happen here.
Well, we're ahead of the game here. One class -is- viciously overpowered already.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
The complexity of lusternia combat.. more so the viability of actually using your skills to win brought me here. I love that about this game and the staff's involvement with the playerbase. That makes this far better than any IRE i've played. However, like you guys mentioned. It's terribly hard to break into. There's the wounding system, the power system, the curing system where several cures cure several affs on different balances. It makes this sooo hard to do or start doing rather. Though, watering it down I just would suggest being careful to not water it down too much. Achaea is an example of too watered down. The pk is dreadfully boring there because they've "equalized" everything. Then updates happen and for a while one class is viciously overpowered and everyone switches class.. it's like musical chairs. I would hate to see that happen here.
Well, we're ahead of the game here. One class -is- viciously overpowered already.
Man, leave bards alone, they are probably the most balanced, it's the ones that just spam things over and over until they eventually win and say it's really tough to do, those are the OP ones.
Guardians are far scarier than any monks, monks have to take time to build, guardians/wiccans can "build" their setup in a few seconds.
The real thing here is: Burst classes are terribly hard to balance. I think monks will be like any other class post overhaul, because even if we kept momentum, the notion of "build up" conditions means they have to follow a path to get there. Might actually try to move away from momentum so they arent FURTHER crippled in groups.
I am hoping the overhaul fixes groups.
@Estarra@Iosai Can we get any more insight on how this all might work? I know you guys are working on the shell thing, but it would let us start coding systems based on the idea of the mechanics. Pretty please?
As an aside, I dont think melds will vanish, as those are lusty unique. I WOULD like to see illusions go though, and add affs in GMCP!
Eh, the issue with monks as a concept is that they're supposed to be about build up, but in actuality, they get dangerous far faster than is reasonable and impossible to stop once they're going unless you have a nice mechanic that works well with running or can just lock them in a quick, well executed combo.
Because we've various overpowered classes but one overpowered Archtype.
Technically, I guess it's an archetype and a class. MDs aren't anywhere near as bad as SDs... beyond that, every guardian class is O.O
This is not true. Theoretically, a MD can kill you faster than a SD, using fewer resources (a MD can burst off ~41% of your max mana in five seconds). Also, SD is not the thing that's actually broken. What's really to blame is Mugwump. That said, a very simple change to your m&m using namedb can put a large hault in any Hexen's offense. Proper shielding goes a long way, as both MD and SD rely on timing things with fae hits. So does killing the two fae that actually do something to help us kill (the rest are either just kinda there or do filler affs).
Remember this comment when arguing against my symph-metawake report. Songs are easier to time against than fae and have multiple methods to avoid them.
Remember this comment when arguing against my symph-metawake report. Songs are easier to time against than fae and have multiple methods to avoid them.
And lol, monks crippled in groups, please
It's like comparing apples to oranges.
Monks make me cry. It would be awesome to figure out a way to balance them in the slightest
(Though, I think Nekotai are in a good place. I don't know too much about Shofangi, but they don't seem ridiculously bad off from what I've dealt with.)
(The Shofangi are nowhere near as bad as they used to be. The nerfs to their bs made them really gimmicky and annoying to use, but they're still pretty haxxy.)
Remember this comment when arguing against my symph-metawake report. Songs are easier to time against than fae and have multiple methods to avoid them.
And lol, monks crippled in groups, please
It's like comparing apples to oranges.
Monks make me cry. It would be awesome to figure out a way to balance them in the slightest
(Though, I think Nekotai are in a good place. I don't know too much about Shofangi, but they don't seem ridiculously bad off from what I've dealt with.)
No, it's not. You are saying that a perfectly viable strategy to prevent SDs from performing their kill strat is to strategically shield or hinder at the right moment. Exact same principe applies.
Remember this comment when arguing against my symph-metawake report. Songs are easier to time against than fae and have multiple methods to avoid them.
And lol, monks crippled in groups, please
It's like comparing apples to oranges.
Monks make me cry. It would be awesome to figure out a way to balance them in the slightest
(Though, I think Nekotai are in a good place. I don't know too much about Shofangi, but they don't seem ridiculously bad off from what I've dealt with.)
No, it's not. You are saying that a perfectly viable strategy to prevent SDs from performing their kill strat is to strategically shield or hinder at the right moment. Exact same principe applies.
Shielding at the right time isn't counter play which is unique to SD. It's something which is viable against every spec that does not have a built in raze.
The unique counter play to SD in this circumstance is to kill the pooka. Each time it is resummoned, it must be ordered to attack, then hit the target, and then your order is ready.
Do I think it would be cool for bards to have a special kill condition for each spec? Heck yea. But sleep strats are inherently very, very powerful. As a bard, you can actively pressure all three of health, mana, and ego without waking someone. Not to mention that while sleeping, they can't eat earwort and it would be ridiculously easy to perpetuate the sleep lock as a symphonist. It's just something they don't need. Also, does the passive mana use of meta wake inflict mana barbs damage? If so, it's a definite no. I would probably be okay if it had a 25% chance to strip kafe instead of meta wake. That would give a neat give-and-take against symphonists. Choose to keep metawake up and suffer the passive damage, or choose to forgo it and risk being caught in a heavy sleep lock.
Heck, wiccans are too freaking realiable with the insta sleep lock they've been handed. I just don't think it's something that needs to exist for anyone. I just don't know of a way to move wiccans away from it without making the ents way too powerful.
Comments
What I'm finding is a lack of clear documentation. The help files haven't kept up with complexity or they're so difficult to navigate that they add to the frustrations. I can give many examples if requested and I've started sending IDEAs each time I have trouble finding something. Also, the game's low population means it's not always possible to get answers to your questions when the help files aren't helpful.
It seems like the game designers are trying to maintain a veil of secrecy. I can't see every AB list. There's no help file that lists afflictions. The skill entries in the AB outputs aren't complete. There is no help file that leads to the changelog, that I could find. Several subjects just don't have a help file. Perhaps newbies would have an easier time understanding combat were less hidden from them.
I don't think the wheel needs to be remade, only described a little better.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Melds do need to go though.
Do agree that some envoys are too busy focusing on improving their own class than make the changes needed for sake of balance.
Edit: Also no one has 18k HP on a permanent basis, it requires using a lot of short term cooldowns to reach. It's like the people who have 13k ego for Justice Seal.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Signature!
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Because we've various overpowered classes but one overpowered Archtype.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
This is not true. Theoretically, a MD can kill you faster than a SD, using fewer resources (a MD can burst off ~41% of your max mana in five seconds). Also, SD is not the thing that's actually broken. What's really to blame is Mugwump. That said, a very simple change to your m&m using namedb can put a large hault in any Hexen's offense. Proper shielding goes a long way, as both MD and SD rely on timing things with fae hits. So does killing the two fae that actually do something to help us kill (the rest are either just kinda there or do filler affs).
And lol, monks crippled in groups, please
Monks make me cry. It would be awesome to figure out a way to balance them in the slightest
(Though, I think Nekotai are in a good place. I don't know too much about Shofangi, but they don't seem ridiculously bad off from what I've dealt with.)
No, it's not. You are saying that a perfectly viable strategy to prevent SDs from performing their kill strat is to strategically shield or hinder at the right moment. Exact same principe applies.
The unique counter play to SD in this circumstance is to kill the pooka. Each time it is resummoned, it must be ordered to attack, then hit the target, and then your order is ready.
Do I think it would be cool for bards to have a special kill condition for each spec? Heck yea. But sleep strats are inherently very, very powerful. As a bard, you can actively pressure all three of health, mana, and ego without waking someone. Not to mention that while sleeping, they can't eat earwort and it would be ridiculously easy to perpetuate the sleep lock as a symphonist. It's just something they don't need. Also, does the passive mana use of meta wake inflict mana barbs damage? If so, it's a definite no. I would probably be okay if it had a 25% chance to strip kafe instead of meta wake. That would give a neat give-and-take against symphonists. Choose to keep metawake up and suffer the passive damage, or choose to forgo it and risk being caught in a heavy sleep lock.
Heck, wiccans are too freaking realiable with the insta sleep lock they've been handed. I just don't think it's something that needs to exist for anyone. I just don't know of a way to move wiccans away from it without making the ents way too powerful.