Population Question and Issues.

Anita

As the title of this post says, Population Questions and Issues! 

 

Firstly, my questions is: Does anyone else within Lusternia have the same issue as the Harstone, Shofangi and Spiritsingers in respect to the lack of people within the guild / elders not coming around as often / people disappearing off the face of the earth / not able to keep novices due to leadership not waking as much / not able to advance in a guild because of leadership not waking much?

As mentioned in my question above, the Hartstone, Shofangi and Spiritsingers seem to be highly lacking in people - of course, there *are* people in the guild, they just don't log in or log in very rarely. 

I understand that some people have lives outside of Lusternia, I understand that some have RL problems and such and their time can be limited, I also understand that sometimes work/school can be too much and you need to focus on these things (I've been there with the school part, and there right now with the work part, it's hell). I also understand (as someone who live in Ireland) that different timezones can also make it seem like people don't wake, but after speaking with others in Seren, it's pretty much seeming like these guilds are...dying. Well. Not dying, because there are the odd novice, and the odd "elder" waking, but not enough to keep those novices around, or the other ones who do wake motivated to keep on playing. 

I don't know how to fix it, I'm not even sure why I'm really posting. I just want to see if other guilds / people have noticed this in their cities/commune. On Facebook, it was mentioned that there was talk that two new monk guilds were going to be opened in Gaudi and Halli - how true this is, I don't know - but if this was true, I'd like to know if a Divine can give a straight number of the population for Lusternia, because to me it looks pretty thin as it is without releasing two new guilds. As we all know, if something new and shiny comes along, there will be a mass guild/org hopping of people which will take away more players that are already the few making up some guilds. 

Xenthos

Unfortunately, Lusternia has too many organizations (and as such, way too many positions that need to be filled). Covenants are a step towards addressing the problem, but they are more of a bandaid than a solution imo, especially as implemented.

Bhiele

I had an idea years ago for a way to keep guilds and cities from becoming vacant as much. However, my peers hated it at the time and it will probably be hated on now. Whatever, here goes. One of the end-goals of most players that I've talked to is to eventually gain some type of leadership position in an organization. However, there are some guild and city leaders that are firm on their hold of leadership. If we allowed a rotation of active players through positions of city and guild, I bet people would regain some interest. If I knew that in six months I could possibly be the GM and get a chance to make my mark on the world- I would be more likely to stick it out. Yes, there are inherent problems with allowing a Bhiele to take over the guild but imagine the conflict and interest it would create. Where there is interesting conflict, there are more people!

Example:  If @Xenthos was my GM and I wanted to one day be GM, I would be screwed because Xenthos is pretty much Justin Timberlake and people love him and he is highly effective. How can I, even with as awesome as I am, compete with that. I would probably look for another guild. Then you have a cyclical problem because the next guild probably has their own knock-off version of Xenthos (not as good as ours) and around and around it goes.

Everiine

I think the culture of a guild has a great deal to do with this, as well as the way we treat leaders. Especially when they are our friends, we don't like to admit that they aren't doing their jobs. Serenwilde can go almost a year or more with an inactive Librarian or other important minister, but we won't remove them and appoint another. The Serenguard had the above-mentioned Xenthos Dilemma when, for a time, I wasn't nearly as active and wasn't really doing the job. But because they liked Everiine so much, nobody wanted to challenge him for the position (thank you Lilian for finally breaking that cycle), and I didn't really want to resign. If someone is not doing their job, they need to be removed.

How guilds do things can affect novice retention. If the advancement system has bottlenecks where only one or two people can advance someone, and those people go inactive, you're sunk. If challenging a leader for their position means that the guild will hate you, then you're sunk. That's not to say that things shouldn't be lore appropriate and interesting (for example, challenging a leader may lead to a spar for honour or whatnot), but if there is a circle of defenders around an inactive leader, then the problems of getting new, good leaders is the guild's own fault.

For what it's worth, if I wasn't so in love with my guild, Hartstone would be the one I'd go to. There are so many good lore ideas and possibilities that I'd like to explore. Hartstone is an interesting guild, so you've got that going for you. It may just take some rethinking on how it does things.

Spiritsingers and Shofangi are another problem. The Shofangi I know have never had a high population, have always had a few people holding multiple positions, and have never had a good, solid definition of who they are. Low population + weak identity = doom. I don't know if the Spiritsingers have had the same problem.

Would it be possible for a guild with low population to redefine its identity to embrace that? I don't know.

Inaryl

Blacktalon has been pretty empty - I think other than GM/GA/GC being able to advance, we've only got @Svorai. When I first started again it got lonely and made me think about switching, but then I felt bad for potential novices joining and I stuck around. (And we did get some yesterday that have been sticking around, asking me lots of questions and making me feel useful. Woo!) I'm honestly really glad I did. I can't really think of any long-term solutions, I just try to stay on prime and keep the novices interested and their questions answered. Sorry if this is rambling, I'm really tired.

Xenthos

I like talking to my Blacktalon friends, though!  Caw!

Marcella

Shut down all the other IRE MUDs so they have to come here. Population solved!

Shuyin

*cough*fullguildmerging*cough*

Sorry, have allergies.

*cough*Iwouldn'tmindmulticlasstoo*cough*

Must be the air.

Anita

You really need to get that cough checked out, Shuyin!!

EDIT: As a side note, I think the HS and MDs will eventually form a covenant (if everyone agrees, and I know some probably won't agree). While that helps with helping novices, it's not going to fix anything else about their situation - or any of the other guild's (Shofangi/Spiritsingers) situations if they were to form a covenant, too. 

Everiine

I would think that Spiritsingers and Hartstone would be a better covenant--both are loremasters and deal with ancestors. Just like a Serenguard/Shofangi would make sense because of their martial connections. Sorry for hanging you out to dry, MDs .

I suppose a few guilds could work together if merged... but that to me is a last resort. Each guild has so many possibilities, it would be better to help them realize them than get rid of them.

And you take your multiclassing elsewhere, hmph! We're already going to do a combat overhaul, let's not destroy all that work.

Shuyin

Frankly, if the problem is that we have too many positions/guilds and not enough people, the answer is to cut down the number of guilds to consolidate the people. It's been discussed and argued time and time again that 'hope we get more newbies' is less reliable than this action, but people have been (understandably) hesitant about doing so.

I mean, each org's RP can probably support mergings (I wouldn't be surprised if Glomdoring merged all guilds together into one, etc etc) one way or another. I'm simply stating that having 5 guilds for each org might be too much especially when that org can count maybe 20 people on a great day.

I just agree with Xenthos that covenants will always be a bandaid solution unless we take it further.

P.S. Multiclassing isn't a great stretch once you merge guilds together anyway. If the Serenguard and Shofangi belong to one guild, I don't see why someone can't have both Serenguard and Shofangi classes and is able to switch between them. I'm not talking about a monk who knows Shofangi / Athletics / Moon here. Just pure monk or pure warrior at any one time.

Neos

Having the abilities of multiple classes isn't as fun as you think. Trying to juggle the power cost of up to 5 different classes is a pita. You can only be OP for so long before you explode. Ask Shuyin, he knows.

Everiine

Multiclassing to me has always sounded like an excuse to give people something ELSE to do once they've "beaten" the game, regardless of whether it's needed or a good idea.

Anita

Everiine said:

I would think that Spiritsingers and Hartstone would be a better covenant--both are loremasters and deal with ancestors. Just like a Serenguard/Shofangi would make sense because of their martial connections. Sorry for hanging you out to dry, MDs .

I would have to agree with you here, but it's been brought up before - and now again - that the MDs and HS should form a covenant. In one respect, it's a good idea. The MDs have a fairly good number (though it's quiet all over at this time of year), and we've people in a position with knowledge and able to help novices etc. 

On the other hand, you have the lore and such like you said. It would make sense for them to form a covenant with the Spiritsingers over the Moondancers.

I also would have to agree that the amount of guilds spread across all cities/communes is a bit of a stretch, too. It would be an interesting thing to merge guilds - though I can see a lot of people disagreeing with that! Though the idea of say merging the Shofangi and Serenguard, to be one or the other at one time sounds interesting, too! I suppose novices would have the option to become a monk or a warrior - like they have now, only they'll be all under one roof. 

Revan

Consolidation is really the only true fix we canmake. It is rather inane to go "we need more active people in our guild!" and then turn around and argue that the most obvious and effective fix is bad. A little sacrifice can go a long way, and frankly a lot of guilds have a common central theme in each city that can easily bring them together.

For example: when i was ninja GM, i focused the guild a lot on the deceit and cunning stealth of Baalphegar. Can easily weave other mag guilds into aspects of the demon lords and earth lords. Will it be weird and uncomfortable at first? Sure... but you have to weigh your pros and cons and make hard choices sometimes for the benefit of everyone

Edit: as an aside... games like this aren't static. That much can be seen from Imperian's mass god slaying. Don't be afraid to take radical steps towards a goal!

Tarkenton

Although, looking at the skill lists, being able to go Shofangi/Athletics/Moon would be epic.  Though I think being able to go Stag instead of Moon would hold promise as well.

On a serious note, when I came back after the summer break, I decided to part ways with the Illuminati and go play in Glomdoring.  I ended up in the Shadowdancers mostly due to the two guilds being somewhat similar, and I saw multiple people online from the guild when I was thinking about it.  My other choice was the Ebonguard, but after reading about the mess/investment that is warrioring, I decided I'd pass.

That all being said, seeing something of a consolidation of the guilds together wouldn't be a terrible thing.  The likely pairings I'd imagine would be Warrior-Monk, Bard-Wiccan/Summoner-Druid/Mage.  Though, honestly, it could/would probably vary from org to org.

Kio

The problem that arises is that many guilds have secrets and rituals which are hidden from people in the parent org.  SDs, for example, do a lot of crap that no one in Glomdoring is supposed to hear about.

Everiine

And for guilds with strong cultures and RP, merging with another guild is a threat--I'll be honest, that's how I would feel if a Serenguard/Shofangi merger, as compatible as it might be, were proposed.

Anita

That is another issue - if we were to be faced with a merging-of-the-guilds. Our -secret- things that only the guild is generally only allowed to know about. 

Revan

Secrets are dangerous. I remember long ago when the Geomancers and Nihilists caused an inter-guild war over the secrets of dreamweaving... it was actually very fun. Stuff like that needs to happen more.

Xenthos

Anita said:

That is another issue - if we were to be faced with a merging-of-the-guilds. Our -secret- things that only the guild is generally only allowed to know about. 

Well, if the guild was merged, those super-secret things would still be known only to the guild.

Shuyin

Frankly, given how Lusternia's lore is, the city = guilds = order. There is much less differentiation between these orgs compared to other IRE games, and this is mechanically supported by Certain Unnamed Mechanics. If it's already on this path anyway, might as well go all the way and just put them further together via merging.

Making up some RP behind keeping those secrets...secrets would be really easy to do anyway. Keep it to those who swear to keep/maintain x class, no multiclassing allowed, etc. 

In fact, I'd be in favour of making multiclassing a privilege you can bestow on members. Have it locked until they progress enough, or don't even allow it at all.

Kio

Some guilds have core concepts that are completely differentiated from their parent orgs.  Merging guilds completely takes away their identity and leaves them stuck picking up pieces and trying to disentangle themselves.

While the idea is excellent for those guilds with few members and not my depth, it would be immensely unfair to those guilds that have built upon their lore, heritage, and RP enough to separate them from the rest.

Tarkenton

I do rather dislike the idea of making multiclassing something other players decide whether or not you can do.  Get off on the wrong foot with your GA/GM/GC, good luck with that multiclass buddy.  Or, if someone whom you greatly dislike/greatly dislikes you gets into the position that decides whether or not you can...

Best to make it mechanically available to anyone that wants it, if that route was taken.

Elanorwen

Admins have been quite good in that regard, though... personal dislike has nothing to do with whether you should be allowed to stay in a guild or not and whether you should be allowed to join a guild or not. Now, if you're a problem person, that's one thing... if someone doesn't like you because say... you stepped on their toes at some point in time and they're holding a grudge, well.... that's an entirely different matter and you are quite free to issue for such. Most leads will not go that far... or if they do, they'll be removed rather quickly, so I'm quite uncertain where the fear of "players deciding whether you can multi-class or not" is coming from.

Kio

Probably a misunderstanding of the suggestion. The suggestion is to have it linked to a guild rank, not to a person. For example, you might not be able to multicast until you get GR5, where many guilds consider you fully advanced and in the guild proper.

Tarkenton

Shuyin said:

In fact, I'd be in favour of making multiclassing a privilege you can bestow on members. Have it locked until they progress enough, or don't even allow it at all.

I was just responding to Shuyin's idea is all.  I look for potential issues in something, it's how I'm wired.  If you like, don't consider it that guild leaders/guild persons able to bestow that privilege won't give it to you, but instead they hand it out to their friends like candy and force those outside of their clique to earn it through whatever tasks they come up with.  I see it likely to get issued, and then admins are wasting time on petty matters.

I'm not against the idea, and perhaps that came off wrongly in my prior post.  I chose the wrong words, so mea culpa for the miscommunication.  I've played a lot of MMOs though, and behavior like that seems inevitable to rise up.

Of course, the whole discussion is likely moot.  I thought I'd read on the forums before somewhere that multiclassing wasn't something likely to ever show up in Lusternia.

Edit: Ah, linked to GR.  That makes sense.  You can probably disregard both of my posts.

Aramel

I see the MD/HS covenant as justifiable because of history - Ellindel and Glinshari were hearthmates, after all, and both guilds tend to nature, albeit in slightly different ways. It would make sense to say "Our founders would have wanted us to look out for each other" etc.

Kio

Tarkenton said:

Shuyin said:

In fact, I'd be in favour of making multiclassing a privilege you can bestow on members. Have it locked until they progress enough, or don't even allow it at all.

I was just responding to Shuyin's idea is all.  I look for potential issues in something, it's how I'm wired.  If you like, don't consider it that guild leaders/guild persons able to bestow that privilege won't give it to you, but instead they hand it out to their friends like candy and force those outside of their clique to earn it through whatever tasks they come up with.  I see it likely to get issued, and then admins are wasting time on petty matters.

I'm not against the idea, and perhaps that came off wrongly in my prior post.  I chose the wrong words, so mea culpa for the miscommunication.  I've played a lot of MMOs though, and behavior like that seems inevitable to rise up.

Of course, the whole discussion is likely moot.  I thought I'd read on the forums before somewhere that multiclassing wasn't something likely to ever show up in Lusternia.

Edit: Ah, linked to GR.  That makes sense.  You can probably disregard both of my posts.

Indeed.  Just as a clarification of mechanics, all guild privileges are linked to your guild rank, with additional privileges for any sort of position you hold (which always correlate to the position).

Enyalida

Even outside of this particular idea, having more privs that can be actively customized would make it feel more like leadership/government had mechanical things to do to lead, and might make rank a bit more desirable.

Lerad

Reading this thread, one of the reasons for the population problem that comes to mind is the simple fact that Lusternia uses the IRE City/Guild system. Lusternia's lore is one of rich and diverse RP even within a single City, and I can see why both the admin and the players do not want that to change. Like others have pointed out, there is so much to pursue within a single City alone that you can have a very rich and enchanting experience without even really needing to interact with players from other orgs. However, when such diversity is tied to the traditional IRE model of City/Guilds, we come into the problem of too many actual organisations, with too many positions tied to the political function and leadership of an org.

I believe it is possible to retain the uniqueness of each different Guild, the idea of limiting membership in a Guild to be an actual choice (ie. you can't be both a Shadowdancer and a Blacktalon at the same point) without having to have actual separate Guilds, which require people to staff leadership positions, perform administrative (newbie advancement) work and all. Rather than having seperate hierachies for each Guild, just have a single hierarchy for the entire City/Commune. Everyone is in the same org, the only org. Players choose which "guild" they will be a member of, like Nihilist, or Cacophony, but there is no actual guild progression and rank. Just progression and rank in the City itself. Being a Nihilist means just that: you are a Nihilist in Magnagora Not a Nihilist in the Nihilist Guild in Magnagora. Mechanics, like guard summoning can be tied to this "choice" of faction/guild the player decides, and switching can involve another different mechanic. Being a Leader-type Nihilist means actually holding a position of import in Magnagora itself. In order to have political power over other Nihilists, you must earn a position of actual political power in the City itself.

For skillsets, whether or not multi-classing is going to be allowed can go either way. You could make it possible, or you could continue to limit it to which "faction/guild" the player has chosen. I really don't care.

It continues to separate the different "roles" or "factions" or "guilds" if you want to call them that, but without the need for actual hierarchies to be staffed and filled. It also increases conversation within-org. To tie the rich roleplay of Lusternia's lore and concept to the IRE model of City/Guild system is a definite mistake. Do away with that, and we will see much more meaningful interaction, instead of empty roleplay involving power struggles in a guild that has only a handful of players anyway.