What? It absolutely does not. More visibility should have been at the start of a covenant. Frankly, GWHO should show us covenant members online too. After all, they can advance and favour.
As for helpscrolls and news boards, I'm not suggesting one for the covenant and that's it. I'm echoing the suggestion of COVHELP, similar to CGHELP. It's just a clerical space for things like advancement and rules. It reeks of nothing but actually allowing a covenant to do what it was designed to do in the first place.
There was more, but it started feeling personal, so I erased it.
Perhaps the people arguing for developing more things for covenants and against complete merging of guilds should provide arguments for how the former is distinct from the latter?
Realistically, what I'm seeing is more and more merging, I wouldn't be surprised if in six months when this thread comes up again there is a suggestion that transferring from one guild in a covenant to the other means your guildrank is kept intact to some degree.
Since it was asked for, and entirely as a devil's advocate:
Expanding the visibility and utility of the covenants by giving them COVHELP scrolls and a newsboard (I can only imagine the coding nightmares related to this one, since it'd be not unlike a clan newsboard for clans for guilds rather than for players) is distinct because the guilds are still unique. While that seems tautological, whet I mean is that a guild can still maintain its own scrolls seperate from the covenant related to, for instance, guild secrets, guildhall access instructions or maps, flavour scrolls, etc. As well as projects that might be unique to a given guild, like the weapon catalogue that some warrior guilds maintain, or the gem harvesting logs the Institute had at one point. I also know of a few guilds that keep handy reference scrolls lying around that might not be useful to other guilds, like poison and stance strategies for warriors, demesne layout tips for druids/mages, or lists of available mentors if the guild has enough members active. Moreover, the appointing of secretary, undersec, professor, protector, and security are all still handled by the individual guilds rather than covenant members (and well they should be, lest someone get put into a position of tutelage just because the other guild doesn't know how much of a headache the person is to their GA).
Since it was asked for, and entirely as a devil's advocate:
Expanding the visibility and utility of the covenants by giving them COVHELP scrolls and a newsboard (I can only imagine the coding nightmares related to this one, since it'd be not unlike a clan newsboard for clans for guilds rather than for players) is distinct because the guilds are still unique. While that seems tautological, whet I mean is that a guild can still maintain its own scrolls seperate from the covenant related to, for instance, guild secrets, guildhall access instructions or maps, flavour scrolls, etc. As well as projects that might be unique to a given guild, like the weapon catalogue that some warrior guilds maintain, or the gem harvesting logs the Institute had at one point. I also know of a few guilds that keep handy reference scrolls lying around that might not be useful to other guilds, like poison and stance strategies for warriors, demesne layout tips for druids/mages, or lists of available mentors if the guild has enough members active. Moreover, the appointing of secretary, undersec, professor, protector, and security are all still handled by the individual guilds rather than covenant members (and well they should be, lest someone get put into a position of tutelage just because the other guild doesn't know how much of a headache the person is to their GA).
Sorry, just read through a lot of that and my mind was going...
If the Moondancers had the numbers they could have clans with almost everything you mentioned dedicated to each of the aspects of the moon each with their own secrets and the like that the others don't know. It'd just be a matter of player enforcement over coded enforcement and therefore potentially far more flexible.
Firstly, as the thoroughly unbiased GM of the Shofangi, I point the deletey stick at bards, even though monks would probably be the better choice to disband from a RP perspective.
I feel as though this has been going on for a long time now, and that it's just recently starting to really come under the spotlight. I can't recall the last time we've had plenty of druids to carve totems, I can't recall the last time we had more than a couple security/secretary Shofangi. I don't think the guilds have collapsed, or that they've stopped working. They aren't working as best they could, but they're certainly not in a drastic state of disrepair.
That said; Shofangi, being tiny as we are, has trouble keeping novices interested.
Things picked up while Xeria and I were coordinating lore/advancement projects and public activities, but Real Life intervened and due to Circumstance, I've been offline more than online lately, and things have quietened down. We've had little dramas that have been unresolved, we've had little Terigun input (Xeria's awesome), we've been without the base lore. We aren't the best environment to play in.
That needs to change first and foremost before I feel that I can complain about the size of the guild, or problems with functioning at small sizes. Lusternia was built around the Guild system, and relies on guilds for self-management, and partially for self-promotion. I don't feel that my guild has been well-cared for, on my watch, or in the past - we're running on RP fumes and make-believe in terms of guild identity. We've always struggled with having novices advancing to my knowledge, and we've always had problems with lore, participation and guild RP.
I am also a Blacktalon. I don't always have the time to play him very actively, but I fell in love with the Wyrd RP, and I -always- enjoy myself when I play Corissai. Despite the small number of other druids I could interact with, the flavour of the roleplay and the rich character development options drew me in. If I wasn't spread across three characters already, I'd play Corissai to death. I feel that there's something to be said for that.
I am also an Illuminati. I don't much care for Illuminati roleplay. It seems dry and shallow; lacking substance. Maybe I simply don't know the Mysteries, but there isn't much I've found in that guild to draw me in other than the awesome skills and the grotesquery of Vortex transmology. Instead, Mysrai and her Order have provided the rich, fertile soil of RP goodness that Zeebin's character has his roots in - I love Zeebin as much or more than any of my character to date, and Mysrai is responsible for that, along with the Beloved, engaging me on a social level, on an RP level, engaging my passion for design and mysticism. I tried the Templars and Minstrels before returning to the Illuminati, and Mysrai's RP was simply enthralling - the guilds were not sufficient to attract my interest or dedicate my time to, Mysrai was.
I suppose that would be my position; If you improve the guilds, make them inspiring and attractive on a personal level and capitolise on -every- opportunity to retain novices and maintain vets, the situation can only improve. My position does not include drama-llama interferences.
Going through and reading all these posts, one question continues to pop in my head, "Why does Lusternia which obviously has the deeper story and RP value have a lower population than Achaea?" I played the latter for 2-3 years, and when I started playing Lusternia I was completely hooked. Maybe someone can explain to me this phenomenon.
There is nothing wrong with having a decent sized population of 100 players. For example, in Magnagora, there is usually about 10 - 15 players (or more) throughout the day. All of them are socializing, doing city-wide quests, writing books, etc. There is at least 1 or 2 city-wide events per day. Unfortunately, due to work and my time zone, I can't really participate in them. Even though one of our Divines went semi-inactive (rumor-wise), we have one that is always active. He's especially active when I'm around. Sometimes, I wonder if he just waits till I pop up on the radar.
Do we want a huge population in our communities where the newbies get lost or can't really advance? Take this example, about 2 months ago, this one character appeared out of nowhere and with a bit of metagaming now has one of the most important positions in Mag. Something like that is difficult to happen in a large community.
If you are having problems in your guild, I invite you to start an alt in one of the Mag ones to see how a model community functions. Learn a bit on how to retain novices and to promote activity through rituals, discussions, etc so that way you can further your RP experience on your main. My opinion is no matter how bad the combat mechanics gets if the story/depth is deep people will WANT to log in to see what's going on.
My opinion is no matter how bad the combat mechanics gets if the story/depth is deep people will WANT to log in to see what's going on.
That's why I'm here. Lusternia's combat system, as it is, is incredibly daunting. For me, it's beyond "this is going to be hard to get the hang of" and fully into, "I'm not going to try." I've played every IRE game at one point or another over the years. To be totally honest, I love MKO's combat system - there I had only the second combat experience in a decade I truly enjoyed - but I haven't been over there in a couple weeks, whereas I'm logged into Lusternia 12ish hours a day. Why? Because of the AMAZING history and lore here.
Going through and reading all these posts, one question continues to pop in my head, "Why does Lusternia which obviously has the deeper story and RP value have a lower population than Achaea?" I played the latter for 2-3 years, and when I started playing Lusternia I was completely hooked. Maybe someone can explain to me this phenomenon.
Comparing population between the games is not quite relevant to our discussion, but it CAN highlight some of the underlying principles behind what drives a game's population to increase or to fall. Achaea, however, isn't a good choice to compare with. Instead, Aetolia would be a better choice.
Achaea's the biggest of the IRE games because it's simply the most
visible, and the first thing actual IRE newbies try. All corporate
advertising is channeled into bringing Achaea into the limelight, and so
most of the people that IRE marketing strategies net go to that game.
And as an IRE-er, you know it's not easy to give up an invested
character to start anew, even in the same game, much less pick up and
move to a totally different one, good lore or no good lore. Also,
there's the fact that they have a critical mass of players which
attracts more players who have experienced low population levels like in
the other IRE games, and who thus decide that they wish to play with
actual people around.
Lusternia's active population is actually
hovering around the same as Aetolia's, and depending on your point of
view, that can be either a testament that we're doing very very well or
very very badly. To qualify this comparison, Aetolia's been undergoing a
facelift and having an entire mechanical makeover for their combat
classes for the last 2 RL years, and it is planned to continue until all
of their "legacy" classes as they call it, are entirely replaced.
Legacy as in classes that were brought over from Achaea at the time of
Aetolia's opening. At the same time, Aetolia has always been known (at
least to old Aetolian players, like me) as the IRE game that values RP
above mechanics, at least, as compared to Achaea. Where actual OOC
in-game is punished instead of brushed off like in Achaea, and those
that don't roleplay are shunned or at least sneered at. For the older
IRE vets, you'll remember there was a time when Aetolia players were
bashed for being "elitists", and bashed for being the players of IRE's
red-headed stepchild (the lowest populated game).
The fact that
our population is now in the same state as Aetolia's (way above
Imperian/Midkemia) can be seen as either a testament to our continued
competitiveness in keeping up with a game that has been undergoing very
visible, very substantial changes, or it can be seen as a testament to
our failing attractiveness where we are now compared to what was once
the least popular of the IRE games. RP alone, as Aetolia clearly showed
back in its heyday of being the worst IRE game, is not enough to make a
game popular. Mechanical changes is also the backbone upon which a game
can revive itself, a fact that Aetolia has also clearly shown by its
improvements to this date. The problem is figuring out what actual
change to make. It may be hyperbole to compare Lusternia to Aetolia and
just say that "Mechanics trumps RP", but for proponents of this
perspective (myself included, of course), it is an undeniable fact that
is proven by many other examples elsewhere as well. For me, Aetolia is
just an easier example to use because I'm somewhat familiar with it.
I suppose my response to Azus is that... This isn't new, this isn't something that hasn't been said before. Covenants were made in response to the last time this came up, I think collegiums were also created in response to one of these threads (which were released around the same time as monks making these concerns/complaints potentially pre-date them).
As to the other posts.
I'd be wary about comparing ourselves to the other games for a few guild based reasons.
Firstly, we have the most and due to design people are pushing for more.
Achaea stopped with 25 houses, after them Imperian has 21, Aetolia has almost half our 28 at 15 (though houses might impact this I haven't played enough to know how much, if someone could correct please), and then we have MKO at 7.
Lusternia has 28, by pushing for the monk guilds people are pushing this number to 30, and lets be honest... there are groups of us who are pushing it up to 40 because we want to see Jojobo and Ackleberry. And if this tease of a sixth archetype is real one day we might find ourselves at 48 individual guilds. This puts us at almost double the number of guilds that Achaea has, with all of the focus that it receives.
Secondly, we have triumvirate ruling as a requirement.
Working with the above numbers...
We currently require 90 leaders, this will go up to 96 should the monks be released and then to 128 if the other forests are ever released.
Aside from the side issues that this does potentially lead to a feeling that guilds are generic (every guild has an administrator with x privs, it's sometimes an effort to get people to recognise the positions as different between guilds ic) it means that guilds can't really be functional with less than this requirement.
Would someone mind looking at the other games to check their minimum numbers? cause I'm looking at Aetolia and that number looks like it could be as low as 15-30 as a coded thing.
This also is a rather visible marker of an inactive guild, these positions may sit vacant because... there isn't an appropriate champion. Or they may be held by inactive people because no one else is around to do it and you can kinda prod them to do things you need.
Thirdly, the other games have increased the flexibility of guilds.
Each other game has some method through which players can play in a guild/house regardless of which abilities they actually hold (except Stardock in mko maybe)
Some have restrictions it seems to encourage people towards the guilds that match their abilities, but not the hard-coded requirement that we alone retain.
Fourth, less directly relevant... we are the most active users the multiplanar functionality that iron realms games have available.
You want to go get some power for your org, you're off plane and only indirectly visible. Doing anything in aetherspace? Often can't even hear people.
How common is it for people to realise that they have enough people for aetherbashing and decide to go do that for an hour or two? If one of those people manages to hear a call for help and needs to duck off, it can stop the whole party, which seems like it would incentivise people into ignoring the requests until they're done.
Realistically, right now what I would like to see is guilds deleted and a replacement brought in like the factions that Eventru suggested in the last thread. With the right level of customisation and contribution from both sides we can bring down some of these numbers so that we're more in line with the other realms.
Going through and reading all these posts, one question continues to pop in my head, "Why does Lusternia which obviously has the deeper story and RP value have a lower population than Achaea?" I played the latter for 2-3 years, and when I started playing Lusternia I was completely hooked. Maybe someone can explain to me this phenomenon.
Comparing population between the games is not quite relevant to our discussion, but it CAN highlight some of the underlying principles behind what drives a game's population to increase or to fall. Achaea, however, isn't a good choice to compare with. Instead, Aetolia would be a better choice.
If the idea is to highlight the underlying principles behind what drives a game's population to rise or fall, Achaea cannot be taken out of the equation. The dominance of the game in popularity amongst the other IRE games has never been challenged. Even now, I did a quick snapshot. They had 252 players, Lusternia had 64, Imperian had 75, Aetolia had 72, and Midkemia 40.
If you say that it's just because the game has the most visibility, most ad dollars, and has reached a critical mass then IRE as a business needs to make some adjustments. Given the assumption that a focused effort of marketing could raise a game to the heights of Achaea, it would make sense for IRE to focus on each of game in turn to get them all pass that threshold of critical mass.
If instead, the argument is that Achaea has better mechanics than all the rest then it's time to study what they do well and what can be improved on. Either way, the comparison between Lusternia and Achaea is more interesting than between Lusternia and Aetolia.
Aetolia was a virtual clone of Achaea when it was created. The mechanics between the games were roughly duplicate. The difference was the RP, but the concept wasn't enough, the world wasn't enough, and the story wasn't enough to bring people over en masse. Now over a decade has passed, and Aetolia is making a determined effort to completely cut the umbilical cord from Achaea, but how much have they really benefited from that in population growth?
Now let's switch gears, how many people actually play Lusternia for mechanics? To me, it seems that all new additions and massive changes have only novelty benefits at best. I know personally, I feel that Lusternia has become a worst game on the mechanical side. It's too bloated, and it has contributed to the dilution of the world and its progress by relegating conflict to elaborate mechanized dances.
If there are any mechanical changes that would help with the perception of population, it would be the reduction of the guilds. There are too many. Closing a few won't bring more people in, but it will make it easier to retain those that are already around. Even that, wouldn't make the game vibrant though, it would only create an opportunity.
Instead, the most important thing is to draw players back into the story and give them the opportunity to change the world around them in meaningful ways.
Secondly, we have triumvirate ruling as a requirement.
Working with the above numbers...
We currently require 90 leaders, this will go up to 96 should the monks be released and then to 128 if the other forests are ever released.
Aside from the side issues that this does potentially lead to a feeling that guilds are generic (every guild has an administrator with x privs, it's sometimes an effort to get people to recognise the positions as different between guilds ic) it means that guilds can't really be functional with less than this requirement.
Would someone mind looking at the other games to check their minimum numbers? cause I'm looking at Aetolia and that number looks like it could be as low as 15-30 as a coded thing.
This also is a rather visible marker of an inactive guild, these positions may sit vacant because... there isn't an appropriate champion. Or they may be held by inactive people because no one else is around to do it and you can kinda prod them to do things you need.
I've only experienced leadership in Achaea, and I think only the House Leader and Head of Newcomers were required. The rest of the leadership positions were not only optional, but almost completely customizable, and each could have its own aides. Pretty fabulous if your House had the population to support it.
While it breaks away from the ties that each of the MKO guilds have to a specific city, and has a connection to a specific class. The idea of a guild that has three coded factions within it is pretty cool. Perhaps because it's so utterly unique.
I think perhaps the best solution to this would be to rethink the Guild/Skill concept currently present in Lusternia. As we know, the system of Guilds having unique skills that are gained by members that join was an old system inherited from IRE's pilot game, Achaea. Lusternia took it a step further by introducing the Collegium system which in itself was very user friendly and interesting to accomplish. I think it may be time (when we have the resources) to try and take it another step forward to this new system and attempting to grow out of the old one.
What is it im suggesting?
Firstly rather than each city have 5 separate organizations, each containing access to a set of guild-member only skills, we allow access to classes by the Collegium. This means any newcomer in an org may select their profession by a collegium tutor. We currently already have a professor system in place, and we can capitalize on that by these professors (all being helpful members of their city/commune) by assisting and answering questions of fledgling members. Simply put, rather than 5 separate channels which divide up the player-base of a community based on class, we instead simply have the 1 college channel which, like a college, a newcomer may pick a "role" or "major" in their community and learn in it. What about the current guilds and members?
The guilds would in concept still remain, except rather than attempting to focus their attention on 5 separate channels, they could all focus on 1. I also suggest that the guild channel, GT, remain (perhaps changed to some other name) in which members of that same profession may speak and communicate with one another. This could help with perhaps roleplay reasons or perhaps wishing to ask something in specific to class-similar people in private.
What about the scrolls?
The help scrolls can be transferred to the collegium, also some scrolls can be made only accessible by members of a certain profession.
Guildhalls?
Guildhalls can still remain as a form of temple or meeting place for members of the same profession. For example, moondancers would still have access to their tower and able to communicate with the guild tutor inside.
I dont see this happening any time soon though as it was stated all resources will be focused on the combat overhaul, but I do think this could be a movement in the right direction.
Short, but sweet. Lusternia has far too many organizations for its population. Too many cities/forests as well as guilds. It's a simple case of very productive admin. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but too much is too much. Lusternia is a freak show of features and orgs. You definitely have some hard-working admin here, but I personally believe that there is just too much here. Players are spread so thin that it's ridiculous.
This might ruffle some feathers. Rest assured that I don't want to make anyone angry. But, Lusternia really needs to blow up some orgs. Banding together guilds will do nothing. You'll still have players too wide spread in cities. I'd suggest a groundbreaking event that will eliminate 50% of cities and guilds. If you have to, give some class lesson refunds as a one-time thing.
Forget RP because some of you are clinging to RP. Who are you going to RP with, yourself or the one other person in your guilds? I just logged on in the Celestines. There was one other person there. Each time I log in it looks the same, unless I am there alone. Frankly, I might log in once per ooc month because of all the quiet. I play muds for interaction. There is very little of that here.
I'd make suggestions on what cities and guilds should go, but that would probably cause some backlash.
Edit: This also ties into why Lusternia has such a hard time hanging onto newbies. I read the announce news about your new newbie intro. That probably won't help much because newbies start in empty orgs.
While I appreciate all the ideas here, I'd just like to reiterate that it just isn't possible for any big changes to guilds to occur at this time (even if I thought it was necessary).
Short, but sweet. Lusternia has far too many organizations for its population. Too many cities/forests as well as guilds. It's a simple case of very productive admin. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but too much is too much. Lusternia is a freak show of features and orgs. You definitely have some hard-working admin here, but I personally believe that there is just too much here. Players are spread so thin that it's ridiculous.
This might ruffle some feathers. Rest assured that I don't want to make anyone angry. But, Lusternia really needs to blow up some orgs. Banding together guilds will do nothing. You'll still have players too wide spread in cities. I'd suggest a groundbreaking event that will eliminate 50% of cities and guilds. If you have to, give some class lesson refunds as a one-time thing.
Forget RP because some of you are clinging to RP. Who are you going to RP with, yourself or the one other person in your guilds? I just logged on in the Celestines. There was one other person there. Each time I log in it looks the same, unless I am there alone. Frankly, I might log in once per ooc month because of all the quiet. I play muds for interaction. There is very little of that here.
I'd make suggestions on what cities and guilds should go, but that would probably cause some backlash.
Edit: This also ties into why Lusternia has such a hard time hanging onto newbies. I read the announce news about your new newbie intro. That probably won't help much because newbies start in empty orgs.
I feel that this is probably a very wrong answer, while it would be nice as it would introduce an element of uncertainty into the survival of orgs, our skills are too heavily tied to them.
Removing an org removes months to years of development time on their abilities. Unlike other games, if say... Celest goes boom everyone in Celest pretty much loses use of all of their abilities and those skills would need to be phased out, however, doing this in Achaea just means that those people are city-less for a time before they eventually can be reformed into a new city if desired.
I also suppose this reminds me of one of the imitations of the design of Lusternia. The tie of every "class" to a guild and in turn every guild to an org.
It's good because it prevents generic classes from being dumped into every org and means that we, generally, have classes that suit them.
But it also limits such expansions, the prime example right now being the missing monk guilds. If we didn't have the concerns about stretching the population even further they probably could have been out maybe two years ago.
Expanding on Hallifax a bit, you could have the Institute there and the like, but you could have a faction (or whatever) that takes on the role of the scientist caste and another for the artists, they could even be restricted so that you have to pass entry requirements to join.
And you can take that even further, you could rework the way that the board of directors works, perhaps these two factions are guaranteed seats on the board while others need to earn them through some method, maybe rather than having the chairman elected from the general population perhaps the heads of the Artists and Scholars could choose between themselves who takes on the role (if not splitting it between the two).
Which then lead into thoughts of Celest having like... a church faction with the leader of that being also the de facto leader of Celest. I kinda want to see some bloody political scheming for Magnagora.
Yes, I am aware that this would be a lot of work. But it could also make lusternia stand out among the iron realms.
I've skimmed through the posts and I wanted to add the concept of... if you are active, they will come.
When I first got back barely anyone logged in. There were literally 1-2 people on and often I was the only one logged in. Since then Veralidaine and myself were an active presence in an attempt to wake people up and keep them coming back. We had some guild contests. We had some referendums over things. We had a guild credit sale. We got a new guild patron.
And last night I logged in to see 6 (maybe 7) people online.
I'm not saying that's a way of fixing things 100%, but it can certainly help in player retention.
About the one channel per class idea, how would that work with alliances though? I can see there being rules of orgs saying not to use the class channel because "the enemy will hear it". It's a nice idea on paper, but I think it would not work so well in reality.
What I could see working however, although sadly this will mean coding more things so I'm fairly sure that is a no, would be to create an ingame alliance system with an overarching channel. Downside? Anyone can make an alt somewhere and hear it. It could perhaps be restricted to only activate once one is no longer a guild novice, which would also avoid overwhelming newbies with more channels. Both the down and upside of things is that it isn't a clan, so there are no restrictions other than what is configured in the game on who gets to join. But it could make people feel more connected.
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If guilds are going to be deleted. The combat rework is the time to do it. As the skills are goin to be completely redone anyways - more or less.
Not saying if they should be deleted, but that's the best timing for it.
It could give a nice reason for the massive overhaul perhaps? Blow up the guilds and the new skills are what's left over.
Just thinking back to Tears of Polaris and the concerns that were raised there regarding the lack of guilds, there was going to just be empires and orders with everything else being player created with an expanded clan template system (cartels being a template you add to clans as an example).
The general consensus was that the players will create both what they need and what they want. I had thoughts of creating a school for technomagi, recruiting as many as we can, focusing on getting the best of the best, and selling our wares to the empire of our choice.
This might sound like guilds, and that is possibly because... that's kinda what rl guilds did and something I wish iron realm guilds could do. The reason for this organisation to exist was due to the complexity of technomages as a class (you're looking at pseudocode for some of your abilities) and the need for organisations to have them (expanding your territory requires the technology that they piece together). The school would devote itself to researching their abilities, new inventions that they could make (obviously to keep secret and sell for the right price), building up the best facilities (maybe a nice big private space station with all the crafting places you can think of and stocked with materials from all over the universe), using influence and money to remove or absorb competition.
That organisation might serve the purpose of being a training ground for a particular class, however, it also has far more involved in it. The goal would be to ultimately manage an entire aspect of the game for an empire, if not more. And once that was secured, the possibility of expansion still remains, perhaps creating a second company that dealt with the terraforming of planets for sale to empires and other smaller organisations. Of course, for a hefty fee.
I guess the point of all that is that... If you deleted the Hartstone and the Moondancers, I expect that the players interested in roleplaying followers of the White Hart or Mother Moon would find ways to come together. You'd also potentially find that the roleplay would perhaps spread further than it currently does, people coming together under the White Hart to serve Serenwilde and learning how to walk his path as opposed to needing to be a member of the Hartstone to do so.
Though, if we do overhaul guilds I'd suggest part of that should include giving them something to do as opposed to just sitting there.
That "something to do" shouldn't be in the form of drudge work either, a la totems.
Yes, I mean there should be a reward for doing that for the organisation, but in my mind I was thinking that maybe factions or whatever might have a, heavily locked in, version of house types or government styles where they get some form of reward for doing certain tasks and can perhaps spread their name around.
Like spiritual organisations like the hartstone, moondancers, Celestines, Nihilists, etc, etc, etc might have some method to go out and spread the word about their relevant entity/entities. While more martial groups might have something similar to say... the gw2 bounty mission where you have to go and take down some mobs or some big boss.
I guess the point of all that is that... If you deleted the Hartstone and the Moondancers, I expect that the players interested in roleplaying followers of the White Hart or Mother Moon would find ways to come together. You'd also potentially find that the roleplay would perhaps spread further than it currently does, people coming together under the White Hart to serve Serenwilde and learning how to walk his path as opposed to needing to be a member of the Hartstone to do so.
Though, if we do overhaul guilds I'd suggest part of that should include giving them something to do as opposed to just sitting there.
100% agree with this. I would love if the roleplay could be spread out and not associated to just 1 org. Would make things so much more better. Imagine players of a commune all being equals as members and followers of the serenwilde, with the members within choosing freely the path they wish and how they want to contribute, but remaining in their current status and orgs.
That's really more an issue for Serenwilde itself to handle. Crow and Night are both certainly revered, and followed throughout Glomdoring. Both hold great importance and serve key roles for the commune as a whole.
They are certainly not inaccessable to non Ebonguard and Blacktalon/Shadowdancer (Crow and Night respectively) nor is the RP surrounding them. The Aspects of Crow for example are a core part of many people's day to day philosophy, False Memory being the most common one for obvious reasons.
I, again, firmly disagree with the dissolving of guilds, and I look at this from a stand point of teaching new people the aspects of the guild they are in, both IC lore wise and OOC mechanics wise.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
That's really more an issue for Serenwilde itself to handle. Crow and Night are both certainly revered, and followed throughout Glomdoring. Both hold great importance and serve key roles for the commune as a whole.
They are certainly not inaccessable to non Ebonguard and Blacktalon/Shadowdancer (Crow and Night respectively) nor is the RP surrounding them. The Aspects of Crow for example are a core part of many people's day to day philosophy, False Memory being the most common one for obvious reasons.
I, again, firmly disagree with the dissolving of guilds, and I look at this from a stand point of teaching new people the aspects of the guild they are in, both IC lore wise and OOC mechanics wise.
Perhaps so, the lack of presence of White Hart and Mother Moon in the commune is an issue in itself. (I mean really, every guild now seems to have their own spirit(s)) However, this merely served as an example of a possible option for a faction. Just like the scientific caste faction was another.
The point was really that, the rp that is valued and desired by the players will continue but by the same note... the stuff that people aren't interested in will fade away.
I'm actually rather confused by your last sentence, I'm not sure it fully explains your stance.
I mean a solution provided by the admin in this thread was to delete guilds and previously I believe there was one that reduced the importance of guilds to the point of just being a training organisation.
We have guilds that are struggling to pass on, and in some cases actually develop, their rp. I'm willing to venture that other small guilds have a strong rp crowd but are heavily lacking in the combatant side so there is no one to teach new people. And we have to kinda hope that both the guild rp and the skills are attractive to the people that will be willing to pass on both aspects.
Ultimately, these threads are popping up constantly because guilds aren't working and every other Iron Realm has taken steps to address that issue.
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EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
If Moon and Hart aren't as visible in Serenwilde as they could be, that is the players' fault. I have one pamphlet on White Hart that I begged for out of the Hartstone library, and nothing on Moon. Not for like of trying, though, as I continue to pester people in both guilds for information.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
Comments
Expanding the visibility and utility of the covenants by giving them COVHELP scrolls and a newsboard (I can only imagine the coding nightmares related to this one, since it'd be not unlike a clan newsboard for clans for guilds rather than for players) is distinct because the guilds are still unique. While that seems tautological, whet I mean is that a guild can still maintain its own scrolls seperate from the covenant related to, for instance, guild secrets, guildhall access instructions or maps, flavour scrolls, etc. As well as projects that might be unique to a given guild, like the weapon catalogue that some warrior guilds maintain, or the gem harvesting logs the Institute had at one point. I also know of a few guilds that keep handy reference scrolls lying around that might not be useful to other guilds, like poison and stance strategies for warriors, demesne layout tips for druids/mages, or lists of available mentors if the guild has enough members active. Moreover, the appointing of secretary, undersec, professor, protector, and security are all still handled by the individual guilds rather than covenant members (and well they should be, lest someone get put into a position of tutelage just because the other guild doesn't know how much of a headache the person is to their GA).
I feel as though this has been going on for a long time now, and that it's just recently starting to really come under the spotlight. I can't recall the last time we've had plenty of druids to carve totems, I can't recall the last time we had more than a couple security/secretary Shofangi. I don't think the guilds have collapsed, or that they've stopped working. They aren't working as best they could, but they're certainly not in a drastic state of disrepair.
That said; Shofangi, being tiny as we are, has trouble keeping novices interested.
Things picked up while Xeria and I were coordinating lore/advancement projects and public activities, but Real Life intervened and due to Circumstance, I've been offline more than online lately, and things have quietened down. We've had little dramas that have been unresolved, we've had little Terigun input (Xeria's awesome), we've been without the base lore. We aren't the best environment to play in.
That needs to change first and foremost before I feel that I can complain about the size of the guild, or problems with functioning at small sizes. Lusternia was built around the Guild system, and relies on guilds for self-management, and partially for self-promotion. I don't feel that my guild has been well-cared for, on my watch, or in the past - we're running on RP fumes and make-believe in terms of guild identity. We've always struggled with having novices advancing to my knowledge, and we've always had problems with lore, participation and guild RP.
I am also a Blacktalon. I don't always have the time to play him very actively, but I fell in love with the Wyrd RP, and I -always- enjoy myself when I play Corissai. Despite the small number of other druids I could interact with, the flavour of the roleplay and the rich character development options drew me in. If I wasn't spread across three characters already, I'd play Corissai to death. I feel that there's something to be said for that.
I am also an Illuminati. I don't much care for Illuminati roleplay. It seems dry and shallow; lacking substance. Maybe I simply don't know the Mysteries, but there isn't much I've found in that guild to draw me in other than the awesome skills and the grotesquery of Vortex transmology. Instead, Mysrai and her Order have provided the rich, fertile soil of RP goodness that Zeebin's character has his roots in - I love Zeebin as much or more than any of my character to date, and Mysrai is responsible for that, along with the Beloved, engaging me on a social level, on an RP level, engaging my passion for design and mysticism. I tried the Templars and Minstrels before returning to the Illuminati, and Mysrai's RP was simply enthralling - the guilds were not sufficient to attract my interest or dedicate my time to, Mysrai was.
I suppose that would be my position; If you improve the guilds, make them inspiring and attractive on a personal level and capitolise on -every- opportunity to retain novices and maintain vets, the situation can only improve. My position does not include drama-llama interferences.
There is nothing wrong with having a decent sized population of 100 players. For example, in Magnagora, there is usually about 10 - 15 players (or more) throughout the day. All of them are socializing, doing city-wide quests, writing books, etc. There is at least 1 or 2 city-wide events per day. Unfortunately, due to work and my time zone, I can't really participate in them. Even though one of our Divines went semi-inactive (rumor-wise), we have one that is always active. He's especially active when I'm around. Sometimes, I wonder if he just waits till I pop up on the radar.
Do we want a huge population in our communities where the newbies get lost or can't really advance? Take this example, about 2 months ago, this one character appeared out of nowhere and with a bit of metagaming now has one of the most important positions in Mag. Something like that is difficult to happen in a large community.
If you are having problems in your guild, I invite you to start an alt in one of the Mag ones to see how a model community functions. Learn a bit on how to retain novices and to promote activity through rituals, discussions, etc so that way you can further your RP experience on your main. My opinion is no matter how bad the combat mechanics gets if the story/depth is deep people will WANT to log in to see what's going on.
Comparing population between the games is not quite relevant to our discussion, but it CAN highlight some of the underlying principles behind what drives a game's population to increase or to fall. Achaea, however, isn't a good choice to compare with. Instead, Aetolia would be a better choice.
Achaea's the biggest of the IRE games because it's simply the most visible, and the first thing actual IRE newbies try. All corporate advertising is channeled into bringing Achaea into the limelight, and so most of the people that IRE marketing strategies net go to that game. And as an IRE-er, you know it's not easy to give up an invested character to start anew, even in the same game, much less pick up and move to a totally different one, good lore or no good lore. Also, there's the fact that they have a critical mass of players which attracts more players who have experienced low population levels like in the other IRE games, and who thus decide that they wish to play with actual people around.
Lusternia's active population is actually hovering around the same as Aetolia's, and depending on your point of view, that can be either a testament that we're doing very very well or very very badly. To qualify this comparison, Aetolia's been undergoing a facelift and having an entire mechanical makeover for their combat classes for the last 2 RL years, and it is planned to continue until all of their "legacy" classes as they call it, are entirely replaced. Legacy as in classes that were brought over from Achaea at the time of Aetolia's opening. At the same time, Aetolia has always been known (at least to old Aetolian players, like me) as the IRE game that values RP above mechanics, at least, as compared to Achaea. Where actual OOC in-game is punished instead of brushed off like in Achaea, and those that don't roleplay are shunned or at least sneered at. For the older IRE vets, you'll remember there was a time when Aetolia players were bashed for being "elitists", and bashed for being the players of IRE's red-headed stepchild (the lowest populated game).
The fact that our population is now in the same state as Aetolia's (way above Imperian/Midkemia) can be seen as either a testament to our continued competitiveness in keeping up with a game that has been undergoing very visible, very substantial changes, or it can be seen as a testament to our failing attractiveness where we are now compared to what was once the least popular of the IRE games. RP alone, as Aetolia clearly showed back in its heyday of being the worst IRE game, is not enough to make a game popular. Mechanical changes is also the backbone upon which a game can revive itself, a fact that Aetolia has also clearly shown by its improvements to this date. The problem is figuring out what actual change to make. It may be hyperbole to compare Lusternia to Aetolia and just say that "Mechanics trumps RP", but for proponents of this perspective (myself included, of course), it is an undeniable fact that is proven by many other examples elsewhere as well. For me, Aetolia is just an easier example to use because I'm somewhat familiar with it.
If the idea is to highlight the underlying principles behind what drives a game's population to rise or fall, Achaea cannot be taken out of the equation. The dominance of the game in popularity amongst the other IRE games has never been challenged. Even now, I did a quick snapshot. They had 252 players, Lusternia had 64, Imperian had 75, Aetolia had 72, and Midkemia 40.
If you say that it's just because the game has the most visibility, most ad dollars, and has reached a critical mass then IRE as a business needs to make some adjustments. Given the assumption that a focused effort of marketing could raise a game to the heights of Achaea, it would make sense for IRE to focus on each of game in turn to get them all pass that threshold of critical mass.
If instead, the argument is that Achaea has better mechanics than all the rest then it's time to study what they do well and what can be improved on. Either way, the comparison between Lusternia and Achaea is more interesting than between Lusternia and Aetolia.
Aetolia was a virtual clone of Achaea when it was created. The mechanics between the games were roughly duplicate. The difference was the RP, but the concept wasn't enough, the world wasn't enough, and the story wasn't enough to bring people over en masse. Now over a decade has passed, and Aetolia is making a determined effort to completely cut the umbilical cord from Achaea, but how much have they really benefited from that in population growth?
Now let's switch gears, how many people actually play Lusternia for mechanics? To me, it seems that all new additions and massive changes have only novelty benefits at best. I know personally, I feel that Lusternia has become a worst game on the mechanical side. It's too bloated, and it has contributed to the dilution of the world and its progress by relegating conflict to elaborate mechanized dances.
If there are any mechanical changes that would help with the perception of population, it would be the reduction of the guilds. There are too many. Closing a few won't bring more people in, but it will make it easier to retain those that are already around. Even that, wouldn't make the game vibrant though, it would only create an opportunity.
Instead, the most important thing is to draw players back into the story and give them the opportunity to change the world around them in meaningful ways.
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
What is it im suggesting?
Firstly rather than each city have 5 separate organizations, each containing access to a set of guild-member only skills, we allow access to classes by the Collegium. This means any newcomer in an org may select their profession by a collegium tutor. We currently already have a professor system in place, and we can capitalize on that by these professors (all being helpful members of their city/commune) by assisting and answering questions of fledgling members. Simply put, rather than 5 separate channels which divide up the player-base of a community based on class, we instead simply have the 1 college channel which, like a college, a newcomer may pick a "role" or "major" in their community and learn in it.
What about the current guilds and members?
The guilds would in concept still remain, except rather than attempting to focus their attention on 5 separate channels, they could all focus on 1. I also suggest that the guild channel, GT, remain (perhaps changed to some other name) in which members of that same profession may speak and communicate with one another. This could help with perhaps roleplay reasons or perhaps wishing to ask something in specific to class-similar people in private.
What about the scrolls?
The help scrolls can be transferred to the collegium, also some scrolls can be made only accessible by members of a certain profession.
Guildhalls?
Guildhalls can still remain as a form of temple or meeting place for members of the same profession. For example, moondancers would still have access to their tower and able to communicate with the guild tutor inside.
I dont see this happening any time soon though as it was stated all resources will be focused on the combat overhaul, but I do think this could be a movement in the right direction.
What I could see working however, although sadly this will mean coding more things so I'm fairly sure that is a no, would be to create an ingame alliance system with an overarching channel. Downside? Anyone can make an alt somewhere and hear it. It could perhaps be restricted to only activate once one is no longer a guild novice, which would also avoid overwhelming newbies with more channels. Both the down and upside of things is that it isn't a clan, so there are no restrictions other than what is configured in the game on who gets to join. But it could make people feel more connected.
You have received a new honour! Congratulations! On this day, you have shown your willingness to ensure a bug-free Lusternia for everyone to enjoy. The face of Iosai the Anomaly unfolds before you, and within you grows the knowledge that you have earned the elusive and rare honour of membership in Her Order.
Curio Exchange - A website to help with the trading of curio pieces in Lusternia.
Not saying if they should be deleted, but that's the best timing for it.
Signature!
100% agree with this. I would love if the roleplay could be spread out and not associated to just 1 org. Would make things so much more better. Imagine players of a commune all being equals as members and followers of the serenwilde, with the members within choosing freely the path they wish and how they want to contribute, but remaining in their current status and orgs.
They are certainly not inaccessable to non Ebonguard and Blacktalon/Shadowdancer (Crow and Night respectively) nor is the RP surrounding them. The Aspects of Crow for example are a core part of many people's day to day philosophy, False Memory being the most common one for obvious reasons.
I, again, firmly disagree with the dissolving of guilds, and I look at this from a stand point of teaching new people the aspects of the guild they are in, both IC lore wise and OOC mechanics wise.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!