So, this is an amusing topic honestly. That we're once again "dealing" with the "issue" of an ability that people can't find ways to work around. Things that are double edged swords but because one side has learned how to use it and the other can't seem to find a way to deal with it we return to this same point argument as many of the Night abilities in the past.
Below, I've a list of abilities that the North has that I'd either like copies of (for "fairness" sake) or eliminated from the game.
- Trueheal - Full - Any at will Aeon power outside of Tarot. - Heretic/Judgement/Infidel/Inqui - Treetoss - Ancestral curse/stagtotem - Aerochem static - Aquamancy freeze thing (valid point Xenthos) - Druid Fury every 15 seconds because of an avatar power. (This one the south can do too but it remains a pet-peeve of mine.)
I think this is only fair, right? Nope. We do whine about it (usually in our own ooc org clans) but we don't tend to throw 5 page fits over it either.
See the difference here is that I at least, though I'm sure I'm not the only one, realize that for the sake of the game we have to have variety. If you just make every ability list in the game copies of all the rest of the powers, we end up with water-flavored geomancy or night-flavored moon totem.
This isn't a balance issue. You all have powers that seem really OP to us too if used in the right ways. It's incredibly frustrating to have someone down to almost dead only to have them trueheal out, particularly in smaller group combat. Or to have a newb walk in and judge/inqui someone out without really even knowing what they're doing. Or getting treetossed into an instant sap trap.
These are things that make your skillsets unique and interesting to fight against. If you're fighting a 16 vs. 8 battle, you need to learn how to better control the battlefield or shape it to what you want rather than letting them dictate. The combatants in the south are typically better at that but not always. I die as often as I kill because I take risks or don't pay enough attention to my surroundings.
What some people don't realize is that a bonds kill box also has a few other drawbacks beyond being unable to be saved from the room. Those who aren't a Night or Crow follower lose mana regeneration even including folks like Nekotai or EG Trackers. Minor? Yes. But in a mana battle, that extra 100 mana tic could mean the difference between living and dying.
Also, shadows need to be gathered with power; 1 per 2 shadows if you have nightkiss. Then you have to release shadows before dropping bonds. There's more to it than merely just tossing it wherever we want. It expires after a certain amount of time too, I think it's every 10-15 minutes? unsure but eventually shadows disperse and it costs us another 3.5 power.
It'll probably be argued that it's a paltry number of power but to those of us who have to manage cauldrons and power and everything else we're trying to maintain, it gets expensive and time consuming.
All in all, this argument just seems like another choke instance. To be honest, it's just sad. I realize how frustrated the North is. I understand, but there has to be a better way than creating a forum post that's now five pages long over one ability that people don't like.
EDIT: because someone picked one point out of all of mine to quote? O.o
So, this is an amusing topic honestly. That we're once again "dealing" with the "issue" of an ability that people can't find ways to work around. Things that are double edged swords but because one side has learned how to use it and the other can't seem to find a way to deal with it we return to this same point argument as many of the Night abilities in the past.
Below, I've a list of abilities that the North has that I'd either like copies of (for "fairness" sake) or eliminated from the game.
- Trueheal - Full - Any at will Aeon power outside of Tarot. - Heretic/Judgement/Infidel/Inqui - Treetoss - Ancestral curse/stagtotem - Aerochem static
I think this is only fair, right? Nope. We do whine about it (usually in our own ooc org clans) but we don't tend to throw 5 page fits over it either.
See the difference here is that I at least, though I'm sure I'm not the only one, realize that for the sake of the game we have to have variety. If you just make every ability list in the game copies of all the rest of the powers, we end up with water-flavored geomancy or night-flavored moon totem.
This isn't a balance issue. You all have powers that seem really OP to us too if used in the right ways. It's incredibly frustrating to have someone down to almost dead only to have them trueheal out, particularly in smaller group combat. Or to have a newb walk in and judge/inqui someone out without really even knowing what they're doing. Or getting treetossed into an instant sap trap.
These are things that make your skillsets unique and interesting to fight against. If you're fighting a 16 vs. 8 battle, you need to learn how to better control the battlefield or shape it to what you want rather than letting them dictate. The combatants in the south are typically better at that but not always. I die as often as I kill because I take risks or don't pay enough attention to my surroundings.
What some people don't realize is that a bonds kill box also has a few other drawbacks beyond being unable to be saved from the room. Those who aren't a Night or Crow follower lose mana regeneration even including folks like Nekotai or EG Trackers. Minor? Yes. But in a mana battle, that extra 100 mana tic could mean the difference between living and dying.
Also, shadows need to be gathered with power; 1 per 2 shadows if you have nightkiss. Then you have to release shadows before dropping bonds. There's more to it than merely just tossing it wherever we want. It expires after a certain amount of time too, I think it's every 10-15 minutes? unsure but eventually shadows disperse and it costs us another 3.5 power.
It'll probably be argued that it's a paltry number of power but to those of us who have to manage cauldrons and power and everything else we're trying to maintain, it gets expensive and time consuming.
All in all, this argument just seems like another choke instance. To be honest, it's just sad. I realize how frustrated the North is. I understand, but there has to be a better way than creating a forum post that's now five pages long over one ability that people don't like.
The reason it sounds like choke argument is because it is, again, a skill in Night that has no real (read: viable and cost-effective) counter and doesn't "harm" the user or his/her team as much as it may have been designed to.
You mean: "Once again, it's a skill in Night that we don't want to deal with and we had success in removing one so let's try for more!" Bonds is powerful, yes, but nothing you've said indicates that it is in any way broken. It can't even kill you (unlike Aqua insta-preserve, which Kregarn strangely left off his list).
While I'm not going to go into the details about why I agree/disagree with points being made here I think it is important to keep in mind what the meta of the game right now is. It is meld-pit fortresses. Certain skills just synergise with that better than others.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Let's not forget Wildarrane's OP Cairnlargo skill where you can empress an enemy who manages to get away from you, is in the local area, has two spirits on them, and -isn't deaf-.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
That's always been the meta. For 10+ years, meld fortresses have been the meta, as far back as original room choke that was actually overpowered in conjunction with melds and other roomwide passives. Forever and always this game has revolved around meld control.
As for bonds, there's an envoy process available to you. If you have a genuine concern about bonds, there is an avenue available to you to address it that multiple administrators read every month. Your job is to make the case.
(Wildarrane is awesome. Bardquisition still cray.)
It's really not that great, especially with increased health pools all around. The meta has always been bursty hindering and kills over sustained sure-thing type kills anyways (assuming that Wildarrane has such a thing). It's wonderful being able to guarantee a kill after a minute of hitting the same target with no hitches. That comes up... in arenas.
Oh hey, let's add Moon Rage to that list too. Night's Terror does blindness, steals shadow (which only one person can do) and damage. Moon rage can do a passive string of afflictions, aeon, and damage. I'm sorry, there's a HUGE disparity there.
And yes, Seren HAS recently had the numbers for a Rage coven and were attacking us in Prime Glomdoring from the safety of their Nexus. Granted Shield stops it but man, that's nasty if people were just going about their business on prime and suddenly hit with AEON/AEON/AFFS/DAMAGE all in succession.
I what? Moon range is not a used skill for a reason. There are certainly arguments to be had for bonds, but Moon rage and ancestral curse equivalency are not among them.
I didn't say they were equivalent to bonds. I said there is a disparity between Terror and Rage. We're talking about unfair things other orgs have, aren't we?
Hi! I use bonds. It's a huge drain on my power reserves. Why do I use bonds? Because I, quite frankly, dislike being summoned. It also prevents us from easily flowing to our allies, and summoning you people out if you overtake a bonded room (which some people have done at times).
Now, I can understand people being annoyed by this, but quite frankly, I get annoyed by a lot of habits that some people have that they use during combat too! Pulling single players from their group to kill them in a collective few hits, for instance. Does this mean we should remove summon, beckon, wisp, etc? Not at all, it's a viable (annoying, but viable) tactic. So are bonds and brumetower, especially against people who use tarot or treetoss or what have you.
Admittedly, I am a non-combatant. I only participate when you mess with Faethorn or Glomdoring, and even then it's from a distance, but I really cannot understand the rage (rawr, rage!) that people experience over simple game tactics. Not all archetypes are going to be stand-alone combat savvy. Some are going to be excellent for group combat (like Shadowdancers, with bonds), and some are going to be excellent for other things. If we got rid of all the skills that irritated people, we'd have no skills left, and that would be boring.
Embrace the difficult-to-counter things. Embrace, rinse, dry, repeat, and find a way to work around them. There are ways. I promise you, there are ways. We have to learn ways around your skills too (like Aeon, and Judge, and Fury, and those things; it's harder than we make it seem.)
If you're dying to Moon Rage Coven or Night Terror Coven then you're dying to damage because you don't know how to shield and you aren't paying attention. If you're unshielded you deserve to take damage.
If you're complaining about full or trueheal then you may as well complain about serpent too, at least that would be a fair comparison. Below are a list of abilities the South has that I would like copies of or removed from the game: - Nightshade blues - Alcoholic Fumes - Crucify - Greywhispers
- Hell, don't stop at grey whispers, give me homunculus
Also, believe it or not, having aeon in primary/secondary on demand generally comes in a price of afflicting power or other mechanic to shut people down. The difference is that most none of these abilities force you into making a choice which could heavily punish your group if you don't have the composition for it. Let's face it, if you don't have some roomwide ondemand push ability or a big group, you're not going to get anywhere muscling into a room.
I think we might just have to take a step back and consider why people think bonds is a problem. Let's face it, for the best part, the reason why the North has issues with bonds is because it doesn't like rushing into groups. You can disagree all you wish to but you can't deny that a fully prepped South room is more painful to walk into than a fully prepped North room. The greater part of our roomwide abilities will either do an affliction cure or a heal and sure, those things are great, but as group combat scales further towards having more numbers, those things just become far less notable whereas damage begins to add up. Trust me, I'd love a potential 36% increase off the base amount of my healing spells for roomwide healing but that isn't going to happen because healing isn't typed whereas damage is.
(I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)
== Professional Girl Gamer == Yes I play games Yes I'm a girl get over it
You can disagree all you wish to but you can't deny that a fully prepped South room is more painful to walk into than a fully prepped North room.
You clearly have never walked into a room that Avurekhos has melded, because it is so unpleasant to deal with. The North and South both have their strengths and weaknesses. If we're balancing the game world so everyone has the same types of abilities on all sides, it's not going to be much fun.
Right, except druidry is the most vanilla of the skill comparisons between North/South. Hartstone is also the most aggressive of the three melds we have. It even doesn't have a passive cure!
(I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)
== Professional Girl Gamer == Yes I play games Yes I'm a girl get over it
Comments
Below, I've a list of abilities that the North has that I'd either like copies of (for "fairness" sake) or eliminated from the game.
- Trueheal
- Full
- Any at will Aeon power outside of Tarot.
- Heretic/Judgement/Infidel/Inqui
- Treetoss
- Ancestral curse/stagtotem
- Aerochem static
- Aquamancy freeze thing (valid point Xenthos)
- Druid Fury every 15 seconds because of an avatar power. (This one the south can do too but it remains a pet-peeve of mine.)
I think this is only fair, right? Nope. We do whine about it (usually in our own ooc org clans) but we don't tend to throw 5 page fits over it either.
See the difference here is that I at least, though I'm sure I'm not the only one, realize that for the sake of the game we have to have variety. If you just make every ability list in the game copies of all the rest of the powers, we end up with water-flavored geomancy or night-flavored moon totem.
This isn't a balance issue. You all have powers that seem really OP to us too if used in the right ways. It's incredibly frustrating to have someone down to almost dead only to have them trueheal out, particularly in smaller group combat. Or to have a newb walk in and judge/inqui someone out without really even knowing what they're doing. Or getting treetossed into an instant sap trap.
These are things that make your skillsets unique and interesting to fight against. If you're fighting a 16 vs. 8 battle, you need to learn how to better control the battlefield or shape it to what you want rather than letting them dictate. The combatants in the south are typically better at that but not always. I die as often as I kill because I take risks or don't pay enough attention to my surroundings.
What some people don't realize is that a bonds kill box also has a few other drawbacks beyond being unable to be saved from the room. Those who aren't a Night or Crow follower lose mana regeneration even including folks like Nekotai or EG Trackers. Minor? Yes. But in a mana battle, that extra 100 mana tic could mean the difference between living and dying.
Also, shadows need to be gathered with power; 1 per 2 shadows if you have nightkiss. Then you have to release shadows before dropping bonds. There's more to it than merely just tossing it wherever we want. It expires after a certain amount of time too, I think it's every 10-15 minutes? unsure but eventually shadows disperse and it costs us another 3.5 power.
It'll probably be argued that it's a paltry number of power but to those of us who have to manage cauldrons and power and everything else we're trying to maintain, it gets expensive and time consuming.
All in all, this argument just seems like another choke instance. To be honest, it's just sad. I realize how frustrated the North is. I understand, but there has to be a better way than creating a forum post that's now five pages long over one ability that people don't like.
EDIT: because someone picked one point out of all of mine to quote? O.o
And yes, Seren HAS recently had the numbers for a Rage coven and were attacking us in Prime Glomdoring from the safety of their Nexus. Granted Shield stops it but man, that's nasty if people were just going about their business on prime and suddenly hit with AEON/AEON/AFFS/DAMAGE all in succession.
But this is about Bonds, sorry.
EDIT: because I had the wrong skill.
Now, I can understand people being annoyed by this, but quite frankly, I get annoyed by a lot of habits that some people have that they use during combat too! Pulling single players from their group to kill them in a collective few hits, for instance. Does this mean we should remove summon, beckon, wisp, etc? Not at all, it's a viable (annoying, but viable) tactic. So are bonds and brumetower, especially against people who use tarot or treetoss or what have you.
Admittedly, I am a non-combatant. I only participate when you mess with Faethorn or Glomdoring, and even then it's from a distance, but I really cannot understand the rage (rawr, rage!) that people experience over simple game tactics. Not all archetypes are going to be stand-alone combat savvy. Some are going to be excellent for group combat (like Shadowdancers, with bonds), and some are going to be excellent for other things. If we got rid of all the skills that irritated people, we'd have no skills left, and that would be boring.
Embrace the difficult-to-counter things. Embrace, rinse, dry, repeat, and find a way to work around them. There are ways. I promise you, there are ways. We have to learn ways around your skills too (like Aeon, and Judge, and Fury, and those things; it's harder than we make it seem.)
If you're complaining about full or trueheal then you may as well complain about serpent too, at least that would be a fair comparison. Below are a list of abilities the South has that I would like copies of or removed from the game:
- Nightshade blues
- Alcoholic Fumes
- Crucify
- Greywhispers
Also, believe it or not, having aeon in primary/secondary on demand generally comes in a price of afflicting power or other mechanic to shut people down. The difference is that most none of these abilities force you into making a choice which could heavily punish your group if you don't have the composition for it. Let's face it, if you don't have some roomwide ondemand push ability or a big group, you're not going to get anywhere muscling into a room.
I think we might just have to take a step back and consider why people think bonds is a problem. Let's face it, for the best part, the reason why the North has issues with bonds is because it doesn't like rushing into groups. You can disagree all you wish to but you can't deny that a fully prepped South room is more painful to walk into than a fully prepped North room. The greater part of our roomwide abilities will either do an affliction cure or a heal and sure, those things are great, but as group combat scales further towards having more numbers, those things just become far less notable whereas damage begins to add up. Trust me, I'd love a potential 36% increase off the base amount of my healing spells for roomwide healing but that isn't going to happen because healing isn't typed whereas damage is.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
Hartstone is also the most aggressive of the three melds we have. It even doesn't have a passive cure!
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
Swap you the entire collection of Celest's skills for Glomdoring's
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it