Dreamweaving Concerns

Maylea · June 2016

This discussion was created from comments split from: Simple Ideas.

Fralunah · June 2016

Could the quest in Nirvana not set every mob to 'kill everyone' mode?

Making the mobs target the person doing the quest or something of that nature would be amazing. You could set the person as an enemy of Nirvana for a period of time or until they've completed the quest (I'm not sure which part of the quest triggers the aggressiveness) If it's touching the pillar of Nirvana that starts the quest maybe setting a time period would be better, as some people could be unable to complete the quest and not know that they've even started one.

Obviously I've done little research into the quest and didn't notice it existed even after Enyalida completed some of the quest with me. It was only the day after I found out that they were angry at everyone because Enyalida had been unable to move on in the quest without the help of another dreamweaver.

I'm not sure how simple this idea is after having to explain it like that!

Fralunah · June 2016

Give the ability Insomnia a cooldown or balance cost....

Lavinya · June 2016

There are plenty areas with aggro mobs. Spend more time getting tougher (ie get to demigod) and less dreamweaving people at their nexii hoping to find one afk to pk. It's like the ninjakari crotamine dart novices all over again. You won't kill anyone paying attention unless they are tiny.

Fralunah · June 2016

It's impossible to kill anyone whether they pay attention or not as long as they have an insomnia reflex and some bromides. You'll find I have killed two dreamweavers and the only reason you've killed me is because you've ganged up on me or are highly handicapped. This isn't a thread to argue in however so...

I don't believe everyone should be effected by one person taking a quest whether that person is online or not.

I don't PK afk people anyway. I don't even PK those who I can kill unless they attack me... (Not a very fair idea as those that can attack me can probably also easily beat me, since they spam insomnia, though it seems everyone is capable of attacking me one way or another no matter how unfair you try to make dreamweaving seem.) Ask Aslen why he was left on the floor asleep with no ego at all... I afflicted him, sure, but he wasn't AFK so... I had enough power to eternalsleep him and didn't.

Scanlan killed me just outside the Tosha monastery while I was playing with Versalean. At first I thought it was him doing hallucinations or testing out her skills as he had been, and as I had on him with his consent.

Lavinya · June 2016

Umm...did you just say I was highly handicapped? @-)

Alaksanteri · June 2016

Handicapped people are like kryptonite to @Fralunah. Wheelchairs make her powers disappear!

Edit : Sorry, I don't think you're handicapped. I laughed at that though.

Enyalida · June 2016

Handicapped as in "Given a handicap" as in "Given an advantage to level the playing field". Like golf.

So, the thing is that you can't kill anyone with dreambody solo, and that's totally intended and will not change. Even with changes to limit the range of dreamweaving, it's effectively risk free for the dreamweaver.

There hasn't ever been a fully clearly communicated administrative intent for dreambody, but the gist is that it's intended for weaker combatants to have a limited impact on fights with a lower level of complex risk, as (with some precautions) there's only really one way to hurt you and it's pretty easy to keep track of. Right now, with the dreamrealm being how it is, it's almost 100% riskless, as you can just SLIP to become immune to... everything a player not in the dreamrealm might at you. Literally everything, total prismatic that's better than actual prismatics.

Scanlan · June 2016

I mean for what its worth since you don't attack people who don't PK you first, neither do I...(sarcasm)

However by my characters position he is to defend his Commune, so when you attack all the other people who must have been real mean and attacked you first...

He defends them.

Dreamweaving is annoying, but I mean to each their own, ill take free XP for someone being a nuisance.

Silvanus · June 2016

I don't think DreamBODIES are meant to really be able to kill because the only defense against it is Kether/Violet.

If there was some actual skills or back and forth battle between that, yes.

I admire the spirit, but a bit outclassed in this fight.

Editted: The bolded part.

Fralunah · June 2016

If dreamweavers aren't supposed to kill then don't give them a kit based on bringing people to Nirvana and killing them, which doesn't work because if someone is in your territory they have defenses like insomnia and if they're in the planes the same applies. I can't traverse gates as a dreambody anyway so... I've gotten trapped in places before.

But my point originally was that, the dreamrealm ISN'T safe to slip into and hide from everyone in. Every mob is aggressive, they gang up in rooms and apply masses of afflictions while bashing you to death while your curing is down. My suggestion was that, since the aggression is sparked by a quest, focus the aggression on the quester rather than screwing everyone over. I've also seen Athree use something other than kether/violet against me. It's quite weak but still...

Why give dreamweavers eternalsleep if they can't USE it? I've only ever killed other dreamweavers, and that's because they are the only people in the game vulnerable to eternalseep. And yes, those people did attack me first. One dreamjacked me and the other bursted me about once before I killed him.

Curing doesn't work in Nirvana, such as auto sipping potions and actual curing. I understand why, you don't need to explain that to me... Dreamweavers are actually vulnerable! You may not know this, but they leave behind a body when they go gallivanting through the dreamscape. This has been used against me, dreamweave slip and bodysnap are useless in that situation. Especially with bodysnap having a long equilibrium loss.

IMO Dreamweaving should be rebuilt as utility with annoyance or made actually viable for combat. I would happily give away eternalsleep if it could be replaced with fun Nirvana utility stuff. Don't start me on motes. Memoryloss is supposedly very strong. Well good luck getting anyone to sleep to hit people with it.

I've heard talk of wiccans apparently being strong with sleeping and sleeplocking people. Does it not seem strange that they sleep better than a class based around sleeping? Insomnia needs a balance or equib loss, or dreamweavers need to be able to strip defences and keep them stripped.

Enyalida · June 2016

I clarified my post. Dreambodies aren't meant to kill people in ganks. Dreamweavers can and do still kill 1v1 or in groups in their corporeal bodies, using their other skillsets alongside dreamweaving.

Tremula · June 2016

*cough cough*

If you're running mmf then DIAG once you hit the dream realm. May have to ignore sleep as an addiction as well, but can't remember off the top of my head.

*cough cough*

*_o

Lerad · June 2016

Eh, for as long as dreambodies can engage in PK while standing in a nexus room or a protected org area, I have zero sympathy. If you want to PK, you can come right over here where I can kill you back - otherwise, there's zero reason you should be given tools of any kind to kill.

I haven't looked at the new dreamweaving set up, but if you're able to drain someone down to zero ego and afflict them as a dreambody while they are actively curing, with no-one else helping you, there's something very wrong.

As it is, I wish we had less of these annoying grief skills where the perpetuator stands in absolute safety and makes a total ass of themselves on people who are standing in the room where THEY are supposed to be absolutely safe. (by the way, you sound very reasonable and nice, Fralunah, but public service announcement here: you've literally ruined hours of gameplay for multiple newbies and midbies in Glomdoring. Which is fine - just don't expect cuddles and "d'aww"s when the same is done to you.) But since the admin have no intention of removing things like fire, dreamweaving, elder chopping and all the other stuff in the game, basically my response to such complaints about how difficult it is to set fires, chop elders and dreamweave grief people gets met with a monumental wall of idgaf from me.

Silvanus · June 2016

I used to be a Dreamweaver and had the same rant, I'd get them passing out from sleep and even make them hungry from Geomancer demense (I think... it's been ~8 years, maybe I got them drunk).

But Thoros pointed out to me that you prep for your kill in Dreambody, you kill in your normal form. I used to engage people in Dreambody in my demesne, it is only a 2-3 second eq loss to snap back in the room (please, things have changed in 8 years). I would prep them in Dreambody then move in with a chasm while they were passed. Not applicable, but it is not a skillset you lean on.

If a single non-Primary skillset can kill a person, using only those skills from the skillset, it is not balanced. Dreamweaving uses only dreamweaving, it is a tertiary for a reason, not a primary. You are not meant to engage those that have common sense.

Enyalida · June 2016

It's worth noting that while you are in the dream realm, you actually are totally invulnerable to assault from the standard parts of Lusternia. I don't think that's actually clear in the AB, I'll see if any gods think it's worth adding (via ol' ABBUG).

Tylwyth · June 2016

What, really?

Fralunah · June 2016

Lerad said:

Eh, for as long as dreambodies can engage in PK while standing in a nexus room or a protected org area, I have zero sympathy. If you want to PK, you can come right over here where I can kill you back - otherwise, there's zero reason you should be given tools of any kind to kill.

I haven't looked at the new dreamweaving set up, but if you're able to drain someone down to zero ego and afflict them as a dreambody while they are actively curing, with no-one else helping you, there's something very wrong.

As it is, I wish we had less of these annoying grief skills where the perpetuator stands in absolute safety and makes a total ass of themselves on people who are standing in the room where THEY are supposed to be absolutely safe. (by the way, you sound very reasonable and nice, Fralunah, but public service announcement here: you've literally ruined hours of gameplay for multiple newbies and midbies in Glomdoring. Which is fine - just don't expect cuddles and "d'aww"s when the same is done to you.) But since the admin have no intention of removing things like fire, dreamweaving, elder chopping and all the other stuff in the game, basically my response to such complaints about how difficult it is to set fires, chop elders and dreamweave grief people gets met with a monumental wall of idgaf from me.

Once again, as I've said multiple times and have been ignored. A. You can't cross planes without the help of another, meaning my main ability, dreamjack, isn't going to happen. If you are crossing planes to get involved in combat, you have a reflex for insomnia. It's those people that I have no sympathy for, It shouldn't be possible to constantly reapply Insomnia with no costs to equilibrium, balance. The mana cost is insignificant as people can sip mana and we can't drain it at a fast enough rate for that to mean anything significant, not that we have a mana finisher. That was a long A, but B. In the prime plane, than half your skills become absolutely useless without serious help. I don't see any tertiary with those disadantages, though I'll be frank I haven't looked at them all. C. You can't cure while sleeping, unless you're in the dream realm. D. The reason I told you that is to show I'm not the newbie/midbie killer everyone makes me out to be. I have a total of three kills, two dreamweavers who had to be asleep or in Nirvana to use their skills and also lost the skill of curing along with me, and one, yes, was a newbie. I don't think I killed him with dreamweaving though, so at least you can't accuse me of that. Countless hours of multiple people is a bit hyperbole. It would be perfectly possible for you to ignore me, if not, just use violet and hit me three times.

Setting fires and chopping elder trees? I don't see how these compare, but when I want to kill the forests of Glomdoring because you've annoyed me I walk over the sea myself to mulch trees. Setting fires shouldn't really be that difficult, obviously a little difficult but if it's being complained about it must be very difficult. You can stop fires with one spell, I think.

I'm not able to make an ass of myself, and even bigger broadcast, I'm much more midbie than these people who's lives I am destroying by draining their health after they attack me, which is just so I can survive since I don't have potions. The point about Aslen was that I don't think he was ABLE to get up from his sleep, without pressure from me, I promise. So I didn't kill him, not to make a point, and maybe some dreamweavers would be assholes and just kill him for the circles or lols. It's impossible to grief anyone unless they are massive masochists and stand in an area afk, which could get them killed anyway. I recall Tiarnis attacking me at my nexus and getting away unscathed. I'm sure anyone else who isn't enemied could do the same, though probably not for a second time. I love the fact that the people complaining about dreamweaving are those that don't understand just how pathetic it is right now. It's a utility/support tertiary according to everyone, but skills like dreamjack and eternalsleep? Hrm. The closest comparision I can find to dreamweavers is in Achaea with serpents who are assassins. I think they can do it out of phase but don't like quote me on that.

Obviously I myself haven't really gotten into Lusternia (I'm still a dedicant.) and read up on all the stuff and how every single class feature works, yet, I may be wrong in some assumptions so correct me if I am, in a NICE way please.

My original point and the point I've repeated is that Nirvana which you claim as a safe place is not at all safe when one person who may or may not be online is doing the quest. What if a dreamweaver sets it off and leaves? I certainly didn't know who was the reason everyone was angry, I wouldn't be able to tell anyone or ask anyone. If the next dreamweaver skills are based off being in Nirvana then don't make it a place where you can just be gangbashed to death in a room because you can't sip potions to give you enough time to slip back or fly away.

Also in reply to Enyalida's " you actually are totally invulnerable to assault from the standard parts of Lusternia" Is the point of Nirvana not that people CAN attack you? I can use my Druidry/Nature skills there, haven't tested anything else. People constantly complain about melds in Nirvana so...

I'm still tired so correct me if I'm blabbering on, but I feel I've made perfectly valid points and no matter how you look at it dreamweaving is obviously not supposed to be how it is right now, and I fully accept change. Make it stronger or change the entire kit to focus on other aspects that are available within dreamweaving other than assassinating people badly.

Lerad · June 2016

Haha. You sure have a very strong grasp of combat balance here, to be giving lectures about what makes insomnia balanced or not, in the context of dreamweaving. Tip: insomnia has been around for as long as Lusternia, and even longer before that, Achaea has been around. It was designed specifically to act the way it does, as a balance counter against sleep tactics. Sleep tactics and dreamweaving are a little different, but suffice it to say, this dreamweaving is roughly speaking around less than a year old. You can assure yourself that it was designed and implemented with the RL decades-old insomnia factored in as a balance factor.

This comment here you made:

"...I feel I've made perfectly valid points and no matter how you look at it dreamweaving is obviously not supposed to be how it is right now..."

Very simply, you're wrong.

Syssin phasing in Aetolia can be pulled out of their phase, attacked and killed on the spot. There is no comparison. Dreamweaving here is exceedingly powerful in the amount of safety it affords the dreamweaver. For as long as dreamweavers can be an annoyance while being perfectly safe, they are not entitled to any form of kill potential in that state. And for as long as it enables the harrassment and griefing you have been doing, it remains one of the skillsets that I am ashamed to admit exists in a game I play.

Trust me when I say that I will resolutely object to any attempt to make dreambodies able to have anywhere near a viable potential to kill 1v1 for as long as their real bodies can be in an org-owned area while dreamweaving. Not happening on my watch, if I have any say in it.

Secondly, death isn't the only measure of harassment. I have logged in to citytell logs of my org's members being puzzled and confused about being dreamweaved, trying to organize themselves, reporting on your repeated attempts over literal hours of dreamweaving them when no one else was around. These logs can be viewed via CTELLS. Feel free to check them out yourself - you'll see that they are timestamped. When I use the word literally, I don't use it lightly. It literally was hours of harassment, on the three or so people in Glomdoring, forcing them to run away from you, until someone with the experience showed up to teach them how to violet/kether and chase you away. Not just once, too. I don't know if you're suffering from a delusional belief in your pacifism, or if you have real-life aeon and can't measure the passage of time. But I don't really care either way. You can wipe those tears you have leaking out of the corner of your eyes and throw them back into the crocodile pond where they belong.

Glomdoring has been exceedingly kind in response. People have been known to lie in wait and jump over-reaching griefers literally every single time they have stepped out of their org territory. I have personally not hunted you down other than in direct retaliation for dreamweaving you have been doing literally at the point when I went to attack you in Serenwilde. It's a good thing you came to the forums, because now we know you are at least literate and civil, if a little inexperienced. It's also a good thing that people have lost the appetite for returning harassment at that level. But, well, I'm sure there's a limit of patience somewhere. Maybe we'll see if you can find out where it is, if you really want to go down that route.

It's fine if you don't know what I mean when I'm talking about fires and elder chopping. The comment was more of a general rant at the decisions made at Estarra's level over the years than at you personally, anyway.

Dylara · June 2016

Dude I literally did not know who you were until you started to dreamweave attack me for no reason while I was influencing guards in my own commune and started attacking Lowbies who had no idea they were being dreamweaved. I had to come here and ask what was up because I hadn't seen dreamweaving in years and had no idea what was happening. When people kill you after multiple people have to chase your bloody dream body around in order to actually knock you down, you send tells about how we're lucky to have done it, we'll pay for it, we only killed you for because you weren't paying attention, because you were playing with someone else, etc. You dreamweave for hours in low pop times where few people know how to actively defend themselves or can't chase you around fast enough to kill you. Get over your victim complex, stop being annoying. It's more than balanced from your side. No tertiary is meant to kill on their own.

Xenthos · June 2016

If you give us the ability to yank a dreamgriefer's physical body to where the dreamform is at, then we can discuss changes / buffs. As long as the only counter is violet/kether/psiblade and the dreamweaver only has to run away (and do so smartly, not just a couple of rooms allowing someone to run around guessing where you have holed up), dreambodies deserve nothing more than they currently have.

Twytch · June 2016

On a similar note, make violet/kether enchantable on jewelry.

Versalean · June 2016

Fralunah said:

Why give dreamweavers eternalsleep if they can't USE it? I've only ever killed other dreamweavers, and that's because they are the only people in the game vulnerable to eternalseep. And yes, those people did attack me first. One dreamjacked me and the other bursted me about once before I killed him.

Lolwut?

1) You killed me because of (a bug with?) absinthe. I'm sorry if that comes across as butthurt (although I was), but it's probably time to stop bragging about it.

2) Are you saying that I attacked you first? Because that's simply not true. I didn't know that you existed until a noncomm in my commune came up on CT saying you were trying to rob him, and then you attacked me while I was harvesting, all the while trolling me with tether and dreamspeak. You've also tried to rob me a few times and have tried to get me killed by inducing me to kick my guards while I was at my nexus. You later explained to me that you targeted the pair of us because we seemed to be the least able to defend ourselves.

Even as a dreamweaver, I have very few tears for our kit. As you've shown quite masterfully over the last two weeks, it's a one-sided license to grief at the moment for a person who's inclined to use it as such, and then Bodyslip at the first Violet. Name another skill that lets you sit at a Nexus and troll people across the continent with impunity unless another Dreamweaver happens to be awake? Explain to me why it's okay that you can dreamjack somebody from their City/Commune just so long as you've managed to piss enough of them off previously to be enemied? Or why a get-up that would allow you to Induce somebody to put their bromides into their nexus so you can get the six-hit instakill should come along with sympathy that the place that you can Slip to is sometimes a little bit dangerous?

My personal experience is that it's well-balanced in pvp ("I can't kill you and you can't kill me either") and works very well in synergies - for the kind of support build I've been using anyway - but as Enya has already eloquently pointed out, it seems to have more than a few kinks that want ironing out. So, very few tears for dreamweavers, yes, and absolutely no tears at all for anything that you are experiencing, @Fralunah as I've said to you in game. Your sole raison d'etre appears to have been to attack people who are minding their own business, on Prime, from day one. Please put down the victim hat. Even if it did fit, it wouldn't suit you.

Stratas · June 2016

I had to dump over 300 lessons I had better plans for into lowmagic to learn Violet because of Fralunah attacking Orgmates while in dreambody, safely at her nexus, while I and others were trying to do boring non-com stuff like enchant jewellery, read books, or influence guards. I've avoided coming onto prime Glom before because she's been about. She's used induce on me and others to cause us to punch our own nexus guards on the hope of getting us killed. I know there were plenty of times when Dylara was having to sit at the nexus spamming Violet just to keep Fralunah away, but was unable to kill her before she got away because one person spamming violet isn't enough.

But it's not enough for her to be that damn annoying, she wants insomnia to be less effective so she can kill people who have no recourse at their own nexus while they aren't even doing anything aggressive. Simply stunning.

Aeldra · June 2016

Just towards 'insomnia' and any changes related to it. Even if there were any support to affecting insomnia in some way, it would automatically empower all sleeplocks out there and we really do not want them ( I made a whole thread trying to rid Moondancers of their sleeplocks. Sleeplocks are nasty, evil and no)

Besides, I have the impression that the Envoy of the Hartstone has a good grasp on Dreamweaving, so if you feel there's something neccessary it may be a good idea to talk to her. ( I do not think there is, but I can not judge dreamweaving )

Also, please do not grief lowbies. ( that goes for everybody ). We need more real newbies staying, not lose them because of griefing on the first few weeks.

@Fralunah I have no real fitting thing to say aside of "please consider what you are doing to others and if you could handle it if it was done to you.". PK is fun, giving others a chase is fun, but there's limits when fun turns into annoyance and then into actual grief. I have faith that you realize when it's time to pull back a little.

Tarkenton · June 2016

Is a shame, really. Striking back at this behavior is one of my favorite things to do, and I'm in her org. Le sigh. Guess I might end up earning a few executions at Bandrui's hand.

CyndarinAscends · June 2016

First things first, I am happy to inform Glom that I turned Fralunah into a crispy critter at the Moonhart. I'm sorry, I'm bad at taking the moral high ground.

It's been said about eight times at this point, but I'll break it down again: You aren't supposed to be able to kill remotely competent people while in dreamform. It is low risk, low reward by design.

You can't attack a weaver in Nirvana because non weavers don't have access to it directly.

I think you are missing the point when you say things like memoryloss and forcing people to sleep while in dreamform are not working. They are not intended to work while you are in dreamform. They are designed to be outpaced by curing and defenses. Combat is, by design, not intended to allow you to murder competent players from secure saferooms (no one better mention meldbombs or I will slap them).

This doesn't (or shouldn't) hold true for corporeal body combat. Corporeal combat is high risk, high reward by design.

As for Nirvana, uh..kill the mobs before they kill you? Spend time leveling past level 60 so that you can survive long enough to bodysnap back and live? If you're truly spending these vast expanses of time in dreamform in Nirvana, so long that people are completing quests around you in this time so often that it's become a problem for you, I don't think the quest is the issue. There are ways around aggressive mobs.

If you want to get really creative, you can just meld, give yourself paranoia, treelife, sleep/dreambody, and your demesne can snatch your body into the trees away from the angry mobs.

I'm not going to criticize anyone for ganking randoms on prime. Who cares, they'll get over their 1 death a RL month or they won't and they probably wouldn't have lasted long in the game anyways.

What's not cool is spamming people endlessly with whatever you're doing for hours just to irritate them, even when you admit to not being able to kill them. So why are you even attacking them? If the only end result is being a nuisance, I have to assume you're just being a nuisance. I've also heard you get really salty when people hit you back (you haven't been salty with me, to be fair.) So your story seems to conflict with literally everyone else's. You have to wonder what's going on there.

I think you're just inexperienced at this point, and learned the game. It's fine. People are telling you now though. Glom is a nicer place than it was years ago, but fair warning, if you keep attacking people for hours on end, you'll probably lure out the real griefers of the game that are a lot less nice.

Scanlan · June 2016

Also as a lesson, Shouting and antagonizing myself and @Lavinya - Calling us cowards by blatantly shouting into the air after bieng killed for what constitutes as -you- raiding Glomdoring.

-Not buying your feigned innocence of being a victim, that sort of behavior belongs on Tumblr, not in Lusternia.

If you keep up this 'raiding' in dreamform and truly don't think people are going to start getting real riled up - In the words of Sans from the game Undertale.

"You're gonna have a bad time."

CyndarinAscends · June 2016

I thought tumblr was for porn, just like the rest of the internet.

Scanlan · June 2016

CyndarinAscends said:

I thought tumblr was for porn, just like the rest of the internet.

..touche'

Shaddus · June 2016

Versalean said:

Fralunah said:
I didn't know that you existed until a noncomm in my commune came up on CT saying you were trying to rob him

A thief? Interesting.

Group up, people. We need to deal with thieves before they get bold.

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