Haven't you heard? The first time I invested shackles on my angel, everyone on my enemies list within a three-room radius died instantly. And since the latest batch of forums whines about it, the radius has somehow been increased to five rooms.
Apparently that sort of buff isn't enough considering you guys want to improve numen too.
I would love for numen to just be deleted completely. Pre-overhaul it gave a 50% damage reduction outside of DMP, and that made it great for tanking through tough groups of mobs for ~20 seconds or for tanking through something like inferno. Four power for ~20 seconds, but I agree it was arguably one of our best immediate-use defensive skills. Post-overhaul it gives a 6/10 universal resistance for ~20 seconds, which is essentially wasted equilibrium and power. Better to run out of the room to heal and then go back in. Maybe if it were just deleted, people would stop with the whole "Celestines have the best offense and best defense at the same time" routine. Not holding my breath, though, because the anti-Celestine whining is still OP post shackle-gate. I'm still of the opinion that offense will always beat out defense in Lusternia, so I'm not very sympathetic to the idea that a 20 second damage reduction of 50% is overpowered when it costs 4 power. In any case, why have a skill that isn't worth spending the power on? Just get rid of it if you can't give it a reasonable fraction of its former utility.
We had a news post in the Celestines guild by our envoy saying Baelor had invited both the Celestines and Nihilists to write new special reports regarding pledges. Honestly, I think any Celestine would be willing to discuss trading shackles for something else reasonable, but after reading the acrid envoy responses to the numen report, I end up with the sense that the majority of the most vocal envoys are "no to anything that the Celestines could want or use, under any circumstances," even in sacraments reports initiated by paladins. (I can't help but feel it's a result of bitterness over the shackles thing, but perhaps that's an unfair judgment on my part.) Regardless, we aren't gluttons for punishment, so why would we write another report to perhaps end up, as Silvanus suggested a few tweets prior, with a ton of missing pledges?
Edit: I also think it's pretty funny that the same envoys who assured Kaimanahi that she should let numen go through the overhaul as planned and then envoy it afterwards to make up for the losses are now the envoys who say in the report that numen was intentionally knocked down to its current level via the overhaul and shouldn't be revisited.
I also think it's pretty funny Celestines got the best of both worlds through a seriously questionable process and are defending that and still expect everyone to kowtow to further buffs to their kit.
We must not be reading the same report considering those same vocal envoys also gave counter suggestions and or reasonable rationale for objection.
You wanna know what's really funny? The implication that numen is somehow above the envoy system just because Kelly did us a favor by using the system as intended re: numen. You know what else was above the envoy system? Shackles. Hilarious.
I also think it's pretty funny Celestines got the best of both worlds through a seriously questionable process and are defending that and still expect everyone to kowtow to further buffs to their kit.
Only in this community would someone see a call for "completely deleting" what has historically been one of a guild's best defensive skills as a request for a buff...
I don't think the complaints about shackles were purely 'Shackles too OP'. The whole process, as anyone can agree, was shady. There is an opposing guild who have lost a whole bunch of unique skills that were not only overlooked, but had one of their last remaining unique powers given elsewhere (which was generally considered not needed.)
Insinuating otherwise is rude. It looks to me like Baelor has given you guys a chance to go through the proper channels with this report, like everyone else does, and remove all the complaints. But instead you're going to refuse because people are upset by your special treatment and buff? No wonder people get so frustrated with the envoy system. Wow, just wow.
The Celestines got a free buff with Shackles. It was not processed through the Envoys. It was accepted by the Admin, who gave the Celestines free reign to change their pledges. It is now being defended by Celestines, who also want further buffs with numen.
Celestines already have a good defense kit. They have a more than excellent offense kit. If you want more offense, you have to sacrifice some defense.
I don't think the complaints about shackles were purely 'Shackles too OP'. The whole process, as anyone can agree, was shady. There is an opposing guild who have lost a whole bunch of unique skills that were not only overlooked, but had one of their last remaining unique powers given elsewhere (which was generally considered not needed.)
Insinuating otherwise is rude. It looks to me like Baelor has given you guys a chance to go through the proper channels with this report, like everyone else does, and remove all the complaints. But instead you're going to refuse because people are upset by your special treatment and buff? No wonder people get so frustrated with the envoy system. Wow, just wow.
I can't speak for what our envoy will decide to do. I know I wouldn't walk into an environment as hostile as envoys is with a request to rework pledges right after we finally (after months and months) get our pledges resolved.
I find it a bit disheartening that you and others keep insinuating that the Celestines are somehow responsible for bad the position the nihilists have ended up in. I personally reached out to Silvanus OOCly on more than one occasion to try to discuss envoy issues in an attempt to understand if our guilds were facing similar issues (regarding pledges/pacts and other things). If his reactions to me were any indication of how he acted as an envoy, I suspect he was personifying his title as the "voice of malcontent" a bit too much. I thought it was really unfortunate that he made an envoy report in January, then withdrew it, then put it forward again in June, and then resigned (resulting in its deletion). Zero finalized reports in 6 months... the Celestines must be really good at keeping your envoy distracted.
Wow that bitterness. No one is holding the whole guild responsible for what happened. Defending it seems pretty ridiculous though. And an opportunity is presented to give it the proper process thereby removing any blame, complaining or fault...but you just said you'd vote not to go through it. Envoys exist for a reason. Unless you're a Celestine, then you can avoid it entirely.
Do you really not see why people are so up in arms over this? Honestly?
Man, that ivory tower of envoy immunity must be really high.
The first special report regarding pledges, the Celestines were buffed and the Nihilists received nothing. Please don't seriously expect Silvanus or the Nihilists to still believe another special report would produce anything but the same, when you're still strutting around with shackles and defending the way you got your toy.
The whole thing was a mistake that still exists. It's all very shady, and is a serious blow to the integrity of whoever's in charge of combat "balance".
EDIT:
I also realize I'm using the term 'Celestines' a lot, which may make others think that I'm blaming the entire guild. I'm not. It just looked better to use Celestines than name the individuals who're defending shackles, like Kalliste, Kelly, and Saoirse.
The Celestines got a free buff with Shackles. It was not processed through the Envoys. It was accepted by the Admin, who gave the Celestines free reign to change their pledges. It is now being defended by Celestines, who also want further buffs with numen.
Celestines already have a good defense kit. They have a more than excellent offense kit. If you want more offense, you have to sacrifice some defense.
Completely off topic but still a valid tweet, for the longest time I thought people were joking around with the 'nerf choke' meme because I thought it was related to monk choke. I didn't realise it was Night Choke until the other day when I read an old help file about the ability and just went..."Oh fuck."
Night Choke was a fiddly bomb, nearly everything about Night and Shadowdancer-flavour Wicca were made to complement it. That's why it was such a highly contentious issue -- it was a powerful (if not the most powerful) ability, yet removing it completely would gimp the Shadowdancers. Post-Choke Shadowdancers have slowly fiddled around with their skills to work with the replacement shadow mechanic, and the present SHadowdance kit is lovely (although not as lovely as Celestines!).
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I repaired shadowdancers one report at a time after they lost choke, entirely through the report system over a period of months. Despite my request, I got no special report after the removal of our linchpin skill. Whatever, I worked it out and put in the work and did so within the bounds of the system. Which is why I get so worked up over this shackles nonsense and envoys abusing the system. Even more so when those is of who play by the rules and are invested in the process are accused of being toxic and "acrid," for calling shenanigans.
You better sit your Celestine butt down and count your blessings before you get the sassiest envoy education you never wanted.
holy hell, the only 'acrid' person here is @Kalliste.
My arguments against the report have been without regard to the shackles report. Yes, old numen is dramatically different from new numen but the old system is dramatically different from the new system and the entire point of the overhaul is to eliminate outliers and skills existing outside the system. Numens new function within the new system (a 6/10 universal resist for a period of time) is really strong -in the new system-. It pretty much means that Celestines and Paladins will be able to max out their damage resists to every damage type for a period of time, for 4p. If you don't see how that's a great resist skill within the new system, then you're really just stuck in the old world.
It's been pretty clearly explained why people are upset with Shackles. Did Celestines need shackles to continue to be effective at their role within Lusternia? No, they didn't, and even with Kelly agreeing that it was unneeded, it was still pushed forward by her. If you want to claim that Celestines would be okay with a reasonable alternative, then I urge you to have Saorise envoy reasonable alternatives through the envoy process, but you and me both know that won't happen, for the same reason Kelly pushed it through in the first place, and it has nothing to do with a hostile environment within envoys.
"'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in." -Synkarin's Lament.
2
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Hey, you know who else has dramatically changed defensive skills? Everyone! Night kiss got straight kicked in the nuts. You know how many of us got passive entangles as compensation, only to turn around and bitchmoan that it wasn't enough and they want all their special defense skills buffed to hell? Literally no one. Acrid envoys my left shadowy tit, you guys are just a special kind of special.
You guys really crack me up sometimes. The pledge ordeal happened long before the buff system was finalized, so I don't know how you can claim shackles was somehow in compensation for numen's nerf. Again, if my asking for a defensive skill to be deleted is considered a "buff", I would hate to see your idea of a nerf for Celestine skills.
I assumed all guilds would be envoying skills that had been hugely impacted by the overhaul, since that's the sentiment that was expressed at various times throughout the overhaul discussions on the forums. No envoys other than Kaimanahi are planning to do that?
The report is asking to buff numen. Even if you'd rather delete it personally, that's not what the submitted report is asking for.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited June 2015
False. They happened simultaneously. The buff system was set already when shackles was put on the table, and the decisions for outliers like numen were discussed long in advance to be brought in line with the rest of the system. But hey, you were not privy to those conversations, so maybe don't act like you were.
Shackles was proposed by the admin to replace pact powers, shackles was pushed through as a defensive buff by Kelly because she thought celestines needed more hindering. Whether you are able to make the connections or are simply too busy suckling on the nonsense your friends have been telling you to listen to the truth is beside the point. The defense/offense balancing act of Celestines was thoroughly, and I mean thoroughly, discussed by the envoys and how these things all interact. They were simply ignored by "have your cake and eat it too" Kelly.
edit: There is no report in existance to delete numen. None. At all.
You guys really crack me up sometimes. The pledge ordeal happened long before the buff system was finalized, so I don't know how you can claim shackles was somehow in compensation for numen's nerf. Again, if my asking for a defensive skill to be deleted is considered a "buff", I would hate to see your idea of a nerf for Celestine skills.
I assumed all guilds would be envoying skills that had been hugely impacted by the overhaul, since that's the sentiment that was expressed at various times throughout the overhaul discussions on the forums. No envoys other than Kaimanahi are planning to do that?
Yeah, we crack you up because your train of logic is pretty derailed here. Numen report came after shackles, Xenthos made a reference to shackles, but otherwise it hasn't been mentioned. You haven't refuted any of the points brought up (I'm guessing because you don't have anything to refute) no refuted any argument presented against the way shackles went down, and if celestines actually needed it or not.
Plenty of people are envoying skills affected by the overhaul, what reports are you reading?
Lol, what. The report is asking to buff numen. Nowhere in that report does it say for numen to be deleted. What are you even talking about now?
No one is even saying shackles were given to Celestines due to the numen nerf. Shackles were given to Kelly, period. Numen got nerfed because of the combat overhaul, which affects every other thing in the game. Before, people were probably in agreement with buffing numen after the combat overhaul, since everyone else would be doing it anyway.
That was before shackles.
Now, Celestines got handed an offensive buff for free. Passive shackles, what. Even Talkan thinks it's bull, and in case you don't know Talkan, he was the min-max (ab)user of everything Celestine. Think Silvanus or Shuyin, except Celestian. People are now saying no to a numen buff, because with the shackles buff, you no longer need it.
Just like you didn't need shackles, but we all saw where that went. I won't even be surprised if numen gets changed to 10/10 resist buff that lasts until logout or death.
Thanks Shuyin-- I seem to have confused the sequence of events, probably because I only became aware of Kaimanahi's numen-related post after we already had shackles. In any case, I really doubt that the admin's offering Celestines shackles was somehow in response to impending changes to numen... but who knows.
The shackles change has nothing to do with numen, where are you even getting that from?
People are pointing out that numen doesn't need buffing to something it wasn't before, especially because of the shackle changes. Shackles wasn't a consolation prize for numen being included in the new overhaul system
The shackles change has nothing to do with numen, where are you even getting that from?
People are pointing out that numen doesn't need buffing to something it wasn't before, especially because of the shackle changes. Shackles wasn't a consolation prize for numen being included in the new overhaul system
I was referring to this, which I read as an insinuation that shackles was a "compensation" for the overhaul-related nerf to numen.
Hey, you know who else has dramatically changed defensive skills? Everyone! Night kiss got straight kicked in the nuts. You know how many of us got passive entangles as compensation, only to turn around and bitchmoan that it wasn't enough and they want all their special defense skills buffed to hell? Literally no one. Acrid envoys my left shadowy tit, you guys are just a special kind of special.
Yeah, you're being too literal here. All she's saying is that every defensive skill got nuked, but no one got a bone thrown to them the same way Celestines did with shackles. It wasn't 'compensation' for numen, but it still occurred at the same time.
Comments
You wanna know what's really funny? The implication that numen is somehow above the envoy system just because Kelly did us a favor by using the system as intended re: numen. You know what else was above the envoy system? Shackles. Hilarious.
Insinuating otherwise is rude. It looks to me like Baelor has given you guys a chance to go through the proper channels with this report, like everyone else does, and remove all the complaints. But instead you're going to refuse because people are upset by your special treatment and buff? No wonder people get so frustrated with the envoy system. Wow, just wow.
Do you really not see why people are so up in arms over this? Honestly?
I also realize I'm using the term 'Celestines' a lot, which may make others think that I'm blaming the entire guild. I'm not. It just looked better to use Celestines than name the individuals who're defending shackles, like Kalliste, Kelly, and Saoirse.
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
The Inner Sea. I take commissions doe.
The report is asking to buff numen. Even if you'd rather delete it personally, that's not what the submitted report is asking for.
The Inner Sea. I take commissions doe.
The Inner Sea. I take commissions doe.