The cost of being a combatant is high and should be a consideration. But on the other end there is something to be said for having boosts available to people who go above and beyond.
A lot of them can serve as crutches to people having problems with certain situations though. If you are being overwhelmed by mental affs then you can spend some karma to get some help with that. It doesn't mean there are no other solutions but going step by step through your combat strategy and line by line of your system is impractical for the forums.
Also, to the root of this thread. I'm not saying that cantor damage and princess farewell are balanced but there are some considerations.
A cantor's first attack will hit harder than their second. One of their song powers gives a damage boost that is used up when they deal damage. Which means buy some unholywater and get ready to giggle snort. Either they nuke themselves or waste an attack and their damage boost on a newbie kick.
I'm not sure about this one but I seem to remember that their super aeon has a shorter duration than normal aeon. So it isn't ideal for aeon locks.
Every strategy has a flaw and a counter strategy. Just find the right counter and then melt their faces.
There's still some space above those elbows, Saesh!
I'mjustkiddingdon'tzapmepls.
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
But on the other end there is something to be said for having boosts available to people who go above and beyond.
To take an extreme approach, there are no advantages in chess, if you jog around the block before you play the game. You don't get extra points in football for having more players on your team who signed merchandising deals.
There are plenty of boosts available for people who go above and beyond through the natural training process, getting a better system, earning artifacts, etc. I'm not seeing the benefit that is gained from activities which allow you to get things which are not "always on" or at least "always available." The debate over artifact pipe necessity, is a good illustration of how this works out.
Regarding being able to do various things to temporarily replace the fact that you don't have an artifact, I think that's a fair point. But to me that would suggest that these buffs should max out at whatever buff the artifacts max out at.
What? Is all this over karma blessings? They are the easiest boosts in the world to get and maintain, they are so easy, I have even argued against them existing.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
But on the other end there is something to be said for having boosts available to people who go above and beyond.
To take an extreme approach, there are no advantages in chess, if you jog around the block before you play the game. You don't get extra points in football for having more players on your team who signed merchandising deals.
There are plenty of boosts available for people who go above and beyond through the natural training process, getting a better system, earning artifacts, etc. I'm not seeing the benefit that is gained from activities which allow you to get things which are not "always on" or at least "always available." The debate over artifact pipe necessity, is a good illustration of how this works out.
Regarding being able to do various things to temporarily replace the fact that you don't have an artifact, I think that's a fair point. But to me that would suggest that these buffs should max out at whatever buff the artifacts max out at.
So essentially... you want to grind if you don't have artifacts, but not if you do? I'm fine with that. People that refuse to grind still won't grind and I'll still have the advantage by being prebuffed without wasting time in grinding.....
That makes no sense, though. Your metaphors are also rather illogical. What's jogging got to do with chess? Have you ever actually done competitive chess? I have a friend who had stopped playing for five years when I met him for the first time, and he could still quote famous games move for move. That is what preparation for chess is. How long do you think it takes to sit down and memorize famous games to the point where you can repeat each and every out of a hundred moves? Right, it takes some work... same deal here. Spend 40 minutes, raise the throne, get an h/m/e buff plus about 30% karma to use for a blessing. If you're just bashing, it takes less time to get there, but whatever. Die once in enemy territory? You might be looking at something along the lines of a couple million essence loss. If you're going to be bashing for that essence all on your own, it'll take 3-4 hours to recover. How is that any different than farming for a buff or two? Heck, you could kill two birds with one stone by farming essence and getting a buff in the process.
Either way, I do not understand the rage happening there. Sure, I'm not terribly happy with essence loss on death myself, but eh... you learn to live with it. Nobody is forcing you to engage in PvP, it is a matter of personal choice. Don't want to do it? No need to farm for the buffs either. Problem solved. If you want to do it, you should probably be ready to invest some time into it. You can't expect to just waltz up to established high-tier combatants (Ones that put time and effort into getting buffs) as a level 50 faeling and expect to last longer than a snowflake in a blast furnace. Just doesn't work that way.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
What does jogging have to do with chess? Absolutely Nothing!
What does doing the throne quest have to do with strategically/tactically planning attacks and responses in a super fast paced environment, where split section decisions make all the difference? Absolutely Nothing!
I'd rather be spending my 40 minutes sparring and fighting, or pouring over tomes on how to spar or fight better. Not running around doing unrelated activities.
Agreed, who cares about the death/loss, the loss is meaningless. The percieved lockdown however...
I did not realize that "engaging in PvP" meant, "playing the PvE game". You'll have to explain to me how that works. High tier combatants are not people who put time and effort into getting buffs. If it was, then Lusternia would be a pay2win game. It isn't. High tier combtants are people who put in a lot of time and effort into PvP fighting.
(Hopefully this coment won't distract from my point, but just to make it clear since I'm sure its running through your head. I see leveling up as a different sort of issue all together. Combat has meaning beyond the spar and sport of the fight, because Lusternia is an RPG, so playing the PvE game to "establish yourself" is an important part of the process. However, once established, I don't see what it is adding.)
If we want to run with the chess analogies, the issue is that Kelly and arcanis is playing chess. Kelly is going out of her way to actually put all of her pieces on the board. Arcanis is leaving off his pawns and wondering why Kelly has so many more pieces than he does.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Heh, let's just say if it were actually realistic to get the completely necessary essence/xp to compete in pvp through PK, many players would have taken advantage already.
Heh, let's just say if it were actually realistic to get the completely necessary essence/xp to compete in pvp through PK, many players would have taken advantage already.
What are you responding to with this? Is this a response to this:
" so playing the PvE game to "establish yourself" is an important part of the process" However, once established, I don't see what it is adding.
I'm saying that high tier combatants play the PvE game in order to even begin to compete. An example is bashing to demigod. It's just how it is. If PvPers can reach the highest levels solely through PvP, it would have happened already.
Furthermore, I actually do think that high tier combatants are people who are willing to do what it takes to win, which may include "putting forth the effort to get buffs".
Lastly, I don't think pay2win is such a horrible concept, considering almost everything you do is accomplished by paying something: whether it be lessons, gold, credits, RL money, or time.
So, I have stated that after the processes of doing PvE to get to a level where you can get involved in PvP, I think you shouldn't need to do PvE anymore to participate in PvP.
Your response to that, is that you need to get PvE to get involved in PvP.
I am so confused!
Pay2Win means that if I spend more money, you can not compete against me. (who ever pays the most money wins) Lusternia is not pay2win. Spending more money and getting buffs, will not define who wins, once both combatants have reached the state of 'viable'. If Lusternia WAS pay2win, then I could understand that the grind replaces the payment. But it doesn't.
Ultimately this is a business, and that is a bad business decision. If you want to pay2win in PvP, you probably don't want to do PvE that much, and will spend just as much to do it as quickly as possible so you can have more PvP time.
And the grind does replace the payment, ask Munsia.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
I don't even get what you're trying to say at this point.
It seems to me that you expect your character to remain PvP-relevant after reaching a level of viability without having to further engage in grinding.
That's silly.
Here's an analogy, since you love that so much: if you build the fastest car in the world, do you really expect your car to be fastest, even years later, without having to add/improve it in order to compete with all the others? Maybe even more accurately: you put together a junker on 4 wheels that barely qualifies (but qualifies nonetheless) as a car if you squint your eyes hard enough. Should you be able to outrace a lamborghini?
Similarly, I disagree with the idea that once you've reached "PvP ready" status, then you should be able to take down even most hearty of fighters without having to put in at least the same amount of work as they have. Why shouldn't you have to work to stay on top?
The workplace already functions similarly: if you're not able to adapt and keep learning new technologies/techniques/etc to stay on the cutting edge, then you'll find yourself stagnating, passed up for promotions, or even fired.
So yeah, in short, no, I don't think you deserve to compete with the best if you don't put in work to be the best.
So, I have stated that after the processes of doing PvE to get to a level where you can get involved in PvP, I think you shouldn't need to do PvE anymore to participate in PvP.
Your response to that, is that you need to get PvE to get involved in PvP.
I am so confused!
Pay2Win means that if I spend more money, you can not compete against me. (who ever pays the most money wins) Lusternia is not pay2win. Spending more money and getting buffs, will not define who wins, once both combatants have reached the state of 'viable'. If Lusternia WAS pay2win, then I could understand that the grind replaces the payment. But it doesn't.
Shuyin, what I'm getting from your response, is that you think if I grind a bunch of quests in the game for X amount of hours, I should be able to get the wand of Zapping or Maggoting (This wand has no restrictions). In theory this is what combat is about to you?
Actually doing combat isn't relevant, just how many hours you invest, no matter what you are investing those hours in?
Maybe I didn't realize how effortless people thought combat was, just a question of collecting the correct stuff and mashing buttons.
Regarding your car analogy... what I'm saying is that if you purchase fuzzy dice, your car should not be driving faster.
No Daganev, I think if you grind a bunch of quests in the game for X amount of hours, you'd have grinded a bunch of quests for X amount of hours. You don't get a wand of maggoting to kill the Big Bad Griefer instantly, but you might have a better shot of killing him due to the work you've put in.
Yeah I don't really expend much creativity and strategy if scrubs just die to plain bashing.
No need to whip out anything fancy if the common peasant just dies to that.
You certainly don't see me bashing Kelly, Avurekhos, or even Niina! They get the next level up: straight soulless.
Fun fact: I actually earned at least halfof my significant arties in game via guiding, IC credit sales, and copious loans from Xenthos/friends (mainly Xenthos, with a smattering of Krellan). Having no job in college gives you a lot of free time, go figure.
I honestly have no idea how you jumped from PvP should not require extra PvE activites past point X, to " Why shouldn't you have to work to stay on top? "
The only thing I can see which gets you from A to B, is if you think that the ONLY work involved in PvP is PvE activities. It seems to me that you think that sparing, system tweaking, and strategy/tactics is not in any shape or form "work", nor is it what allows you to "stay on top".
No Daganev, I think if you grind a bunch of quests in the game for X amount of hours, you'd have grinded a bunch of quests for X amount of hours. You don't get a wand of maggoting to kill the Big Bad Griefer instantly, but you might have a better shot of killing him due to the work you've put in.
Well, those talentless scrubs want to raid offpeak, I don't want them getting off scot free
I certainly have enough trouble finding you guys alone, so I think you can understand why I'd just link you guys out instead of jumping your ornery group.
You guys need to chill out and just read each other's posts once in a while.
The disagreement here is quite simple:
Firstly, PvP requires upkeep, effort and investment. Everyone agrees with this.
However, Daganev believes that bashing is an activity that does not contribute to becoming better at PvP simply by the act itself. Compare bashing to an activity like sparring - both take time and effort. However, you improve in PvP by sparring in of itself by training your familiarization with combat spam, your reflexes, regulating adrenaline rush, practicing strategies etc, whereas bashing leads to improvement only though the access to resources that buys a certain buff or advantage, nothing to do with actual PvP concepts, theories or understandings of the mechanics or strategies. When you're bashing, you're hitting a bashing macro while keeping an eye
on your health bar alone - a vast difference to PvP, where you have
dozens of buttons available to you, need to keep track of health, ego,
mana and your opponent's strategy, his status, general combat situation
(run when your allies are dying like flies) etc.
Therefore, bashing as a grinding "effort" toward "improving" in PvP is not an activity that is inherently an "upkeep" of getting better at PvP, just a grind for the sake of grind, and the fact that it is required in this game is sad to him.
However, on the other side of the fence, Shuyin and others are saying that earning the resources to buy these items or advantages or buffs that lead to a better PvP experience is perfectly fine. There's nothing wrong in requiring upkeep that is unrelated to the actual act of PvP. The grind for gold, credits, dingbats into artifacts, or the grind for corpses into karma into blessings or truefavours, are all legitimate ways of keeping oneself competitive, or rather, getting an edge over the rest.
That's all, not a biggie. Just a difference in opinion.
I honestly have no idea how you jumped from PvP should not require extra PvE activites past point X, to " Why shouldn't you have to work to stay on top? "
The only thing I can see which gets you from A to B, is if you think that the ONLY work involved in PvP is PvE activities. It seems to me that you think that sparing, system tweaking, and strategy/tactics is not in any shape or form "work", nor is it what allows you to "stay on top".
...because what you quoted Llandros on was regarding "those who go above and beyond". I take that as those who really want to put forth the effort to beat the big bad fighters, the ones who want to reach the top. You're certainly not gonna get genie bottles, karma blessings, throne blessings, curios, etc to fight Joe Newbie, are you? That's way too much work. You want to be able to kill the Narsrims, Fillins, etc. of that world with that kind of firepower.
You can't really take this quote, cherrypick it to address your tangential point about basic pvp, and then be surprised that other people are addressing you regarding the initial quote.
Edit: yeah what Lerad said, ball's in his court now.
Well, those talentless scrubs want to raid offpeak, I don't want them getting off scot free
I certainly have enough trouble finding you guys alone, so I think you can understand why I'd just link you guys out instead of jumping your ornery group.
You guys need to chill out and just read each other's posts once in a while.
The disagreement here is quite simple:
Firstly, PvP requires upkeep, effort and investment. Everyone agrees with this.
However, Daganev believes that bashing is an activity that does not contribute to becoming better at PvP simply by the act itself. Compare bashing to an activity like sparring - both take time and effort. However, you improve in PvP by sparring in of itself by training your familiarization with combat spam, your reflexes, regulating adrenaline rush, practicing strategies etc, whereas bashing leads to improvement only though the access to resources that buys a certain buff or advantage, nothing to do with actual PvP concepts, theories or understandings of the mechanics or strategies. When you're bashing, you're hitting a bashing macro while keeping an eye
on your health bar alone - a vast difference to PvP, where you have
dozens of buttons available to you, need to keep track of health, ego,
mana and your opponent's strategy, his status, general combat situation
(run when your allies are dying like flies) etc.
Therefore, bashing as a grinding "effort" toward "improving" in PvP is not an activity that is inherently an "upkeep" of getting better at PvP, just a grind for the sake of grind, and the fact that it is required in this game is sad to him.
However, on the other side of the fence, Shuyin and others are saying that earning the resources to buy these items or advantages or buffs that lead to a better PvP experience is perfectly fine. There's nothing wrong in requiring upkeep that is unrelated to the actual act of PvP. The grind for gold, credits, dingbats into artifacts, or the grind for corpses into karma into blessings or truefavours, are all legitimate ways of keeping oneself competitive, or rather, getting an edge over the rest.
That's all, not a biggie. Just a difference in opinion.
Stop being so damn sensible. It's making everyone else who's arguing look bad.
The ball is in who's court? I'm convinced at this point that only Lerad (maybe Erebos) has any clue what I said :P
The grind for credits -> artifacts, and the grind for levels makes sense to me. (They serve other purposes in the game world, which leads to the narrative of combat as far as I can tell.) "upkeep" however does not. I was hoping someone could explain what they like about that concept, but so far all anybody has talked about is level and credits.
Since Shuyin agreed that doing a quest to get a wand of zapping isn't appropriate, maybe you can explain why bashing mobs to get a damage boost is ok, but bashing mobs to get a zap or maggot, is not.
So, I have stated that after the processes of doing PvE to get to a level where you can get involved in PvP, I think you shouldn't need to do PvE anymore to participate in PvP.
Facetiously, the grind is the cost of not being good at PVP. The grind provides advantages to mitigate that. If you don't go through the monotony of bashing/influencing (I regularly don't), just expect to die more.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Comments
There are plenty of boosts available for people who go above and beyond through the natural training process, getting a better system, earning artifacts, etc. I'm not seeing the benefit that is gained from activities which allow you to get things which are not "always on" or at least "always available." The debate over artifact pipe necessity, is a good illustration of how this works out.
That makes no sense, though. Your metaphors are also rather illogical. What's jogging got to do with chess? Have you ever actually done competitive chess? I have a friend who had stopped playing for five years when I met him for the first time, and he could still quote famous games move for move. That is what preparation for chess is. How long do you think it takes to sit down and memorize famous games to the point where you can repeat each and every out of a hundred moves? Right, it takes some work... same deal here. Spend 40 minutes, raise the throne, get an h/m/e buff plus about 30% karma to use for a blessing. If you're just bashing, it takes less time to get there, but whatever. Die once in enemy territory? You might be looking at something along the lines of a couple million essence loss. If you're going to be bashing for that essence all on your own, it'll take 3-4 hours to recover. How is that any different than farming for a buff or two? Heck, you could kill two birds with one stone by farming essence and getting a buff in the process.
Either way, I do not understand the rage happening there. Sure, I'm not terribly happy with essence loss on death myself, but eh... you learn to live with it. Nobody is forcing you to engage in PvP, it is a matter of personal choice. Don't want to do it? No need to farm for the buffs either. Problem solved. If you want to do it, you should probably be ready to invest some time into it. You can't expect to just waltz up to established high-tier combatants (Ones that put time and effort into getting buffs) as a level 50 faeling and expect to last longer than a snowflake in a blast furnace. Just doesn't work that way.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
What does jogging have to do with chess? Absolutely Nothing!
I did not realize that "engaging in PvP" meant, "playing the PvE game". You'll have to explain to me how that works. High tier combatants are not people who put time and effort into getting buffs. If it was, then Lusternia would be a pay2win game. It isn't. High tier combtants are people who put in a lot of time and effort into PvP fighting.
Your response to that, is that you need to get PvE to get involved in PvP.
And the grind does replace the payment, ask Munsia.
Just sayin'.
The only thing I can see which gets you from A to B, is if you think that the ONLY work involved in PvP is PvE activities. It seems to me that you think that sparing, system tweaking, and strategy/tactics is not in any shape or form "work", nor is it what allows you to "stay on top".
Then why are you wasting 'talent' hunting 'scrubs' while they bash?
Makes me wonder how you got that 2,771 kill count.
Couldn't be running in on linked Astral, could it? Nah. He's too good to do that, right?
Pffft.
The disagreement here is quite simple:
Firstly, PvP requires upkeep, effort and investment. Everyone agrees with this.
However, Daganev believes that bashing is an activity that does not contribute to becoming better at PvP simply by the act itself. Compare bashing to an activity like sparring - both take time and effort. However, you improve in PvP by sparring in of itself by training your familiarization with combat spam, your reflexes, regulating adrenaline rush, practicing strategies etc, whereas bashing leads to improvement only though the access to resources that buys a certain buff or advantage, nothing to do with actual PvP concepts, theories or understandings of the mechanics or strategies. When you're bashing, you're hitting a bashing macro while keeping an eye on your health bar alone - a vast difference to PvP, where you have dozens of buttons available to you, need to keep track of health, ego, mana and your opponent's strategy, his status, general combat situation (run when your allies are dying like flies) etc.
Therefore, bashing as a grinding "effort" toward "improving" in PvP is not an activity that is inherently an "upkeep" of getting better at PvP, just a grind for the sake of grind, and the fact that it is required in this game is sad to him.
However, on the other side of the fence, Shuyin and others are saying that earning the resources to buy these items or advantages or buffs that lead to a better PvP experience is perfectly fine. There's nothing wrong in requiring upkeep that is unrelated to the actual act of PvP. The grind for gold, credits, dingbats into artifacts, or the grind for corpses into karma into blessings or truefavours, are all legitimate ways of keeping oneself competitive, or rather, getting an edge over the rest.
That's all, not a biggie. Just a difference in opinion.
Stop being so damn sensible. It's making everyone else who's arguing look bad.
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The grind for credits -> artifacts, and the grind for levels makes sense to me. (They serve other purposes in the game world, which leads to the narrative of combat as far as I can tell.) "upkeep" however does not. I was hoping someone could explain what they like about that concept, but so far all anybody has talked about is level and credits.