Unlike the historical grievances you mention, this one is actually very much still present today. You can go look at Maeve, and there's the brand. Stand next to her, and she has multiple emotes referencing it (all indicating that it pains her / weakens her / etc).
It's still very much a current event, for the Glomdoring.
Because you still exist and keep bringing it up bitterly.
Karlach is an Ascendent from Glomdoring, that is still very much current, even if he isn't active, but that is still just as current (if not more so) than Maeve.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
@Xenthos the fact that you have always been lording over the whole maeve brand and -refuse- to make an alliance unless it is removed, is partly what brought your organization to the sad ending it is at. Your refusal of any compromise and assumption that you held the cards...when your org already had -nothing- to offer. Perhaps go and try and convince Celest of removing said brand, if I recall correctly, they had a hand in its making. Go and claim you refuse to make an alliance until it is removed. I am sure this will help your dead org's cause.
Otherwise, the brand is staying, and we shall eat popcorn as we watch maeve squirm. peace
Actually, Celest did not participate in its making. They backed out entirely and dropped it the moment the bracelet was done. The branding was entirely and solely upon Magnagora's shoulders (they were told that they could pursue it, and they did of their own volition after Celest had accomplished their goal-- and note that Serenwilde was every bit as complicit in that as Celest itself).
PS: From my standpoint, the ending isn't really so sad. We did not wait to get stabbed in the back, and chose to act. The person we backed won.
PPS: The fact that you don't understand the Maeve brand is very telling.
Unlike the historical grievances you mention, this one is actually very much still present today. You can go look at Maeve, and there's the brand. Stand next to her, and she has multiple emotes referencing it (all indicating that it pains her / weakens her / etc).
It's still very much a current event, for the Glomdoring.
Because you still exist and keep bringing it up bitterly.
Karlach is an Ascendent from Glomdoring, that is still very much current, even if he isn't active, but that is still just as current (if not more so) than Maeve.
You realize that it's not just me who brings it up, yes? Every person who posts about Magnagora in the Glomdoring mentions it. It is the single strongest and most compelling reason not to trust Magnagorans. You can call it "bitter" as much as you want, that does not change that it exists, that it is damaging to Maeve (and by extension, every single Fae including Night/Crow/Hart/Moon), and that as long as Magnagora has no interest in addressing the fact they cannot be trusted by a nature-based organization.
Nah. That's called "bad politicking" on Magnagora's part. You (plural) had it within your power to make it go a very different way, and chose (repeatedly) to further alienate an organization.
If you keep poking and prodding something, eventually it will bite back. That doesn't mean you're justified in "feeling betrayed". It just means you made bad choices.
Riiiiight, because Glom had obviously wanted to be allies with Magnagora. Not that everytime the idea of a treaty was suggested, yourself and others would raise all hell and drama, refusing such a standing. I believe Astraea may have had a few nose-bleeds during. We rather enjoy the brand on maeve, gives her a little touch of interesting.
That would be a prime example of "bad politicking" on Magnagora's part, yes. Thank you.
its not bad politics after you are told for so long no, you have to do this before we "might" even consider a real alliance with you all (no guarantee mind you), before you just don't care anymore you leave things as they are. Our relations with Glom were never overly good in my eyes, we worked together against a common enemy, otherwise we were not friends. We were not allowed in your territories, you killed our citizens. We allowed yours within our territory unless otherwise asked to leave. (kinds reminds me of the actual alliance we had with Seren actually except with was just undead and not just blanket Mag). There was always that undertone going on as well, I was actually working at one point to see what I could do about that whole Maeve thing, but Glom and all their little snide remarks about Mag gave me no reason to even want to help them so I quit. (this was around December of the last ascension)
Your relations with Glomdoring were never very good, because Magnagora had no interest in actually addressing the major issue between the two organizations. Every time we asked about the brand, "It's not possible". Multiple complaints were posted by Magnagorans on the forums saying "The admin say it's not possible, we can't do it, it's not worth even trying!" We never made a secret of what the problem was that was causing discord.
History time: For a couple of years, Raziela had a "brand" on her arm. Celest, Glomdoring, and Serenwilde were told by the administration, on an IC level (Maeve, Supernals, etc.) that it was not possible to remove it. The difference here is this: Celest never threw their hands up in the air on an in-character level, said "We don't care," and ignored it. They kept working on it, roleplaying for it, and eventually they got the change they were looking for.
Magnagora had the same opportunity if they had wanted it. However, on an in-character level, they heard that it "was not possible" and said, "Oh, okay then, we just won't bother". Past precedent, however, indicates that consistent and concerted roleplay can indeed change the world (Glomdoring opening when it did, Raziela's bracelet, and so on and so forth).
From an in-character point of view, it was very obvious that Magnagora's residents just had no interest. From an out-of-character point, everything we heard is "the admin told us it's not possible so we can't be bothered to try" (which, to me, is a form of metagaming-- your characters don't know anything about an 'administration' and, if they truly wanted something, would continue researching / investigating / trying to figure out how to do it despite a few setbacks).
Glomdoring responded to the in-character lack-of-action. All it would've taken was an interest (note: the interest had to be expressed to us, we can't be expected to know things when we're not told!), and things would have thawed in that respect.
PS: Note that, during this period, we actually discussed this with multiple Magnagorans on an OOC level who accused us of being "unreasonable." Our characters would have accepted a show of good faith and continued effort, and we'd have happily worked along with that. Alas, it never actually went anywhere in-game.
I had actually never head about the admins saying it was not possable until later to be honest. None from Glom ever came to me as a GM it was Morkarion who was like, oh this is why and I was like oh well.. and I did my did through history to find out what I could about it even though I was there for it - always good to brush up. I asked around to see what others knew about it and even their facts were very skewed on it. My character has reason not to like Glom but I player her with enough reasoning to be able to get over herself and work for the better of her city and not for just herself and what she want's. but, she hears a lot of things because she is such a quiet leader and like I said, I heard a lot of things and seen a lot of things that personally made me drop the whole effort that everyone was against in the first place. Ari is a person people will at least listen to when she present things to them especially if there is a reasonable solution, just never got to the solution part because Glom put the foot in their own mouth with at least this one City leader who was willing.
As I have said to the other leaders more recently, this is in the past, this is well in the past now and there is nothing that can be done to change it. it is what we do now that matters. Do I want to help you now? No, not really. Can you change my mind? Certainly. I don't hate you all, not by any means ^^ only one Org takes that cake and its not even Celest! (hate is pretty strong there too, there is a very strong dislike and even then it is probably just for certain individuals that left a sour taste in my mouth). So there ya go.
The soft, hollow voice of Nocht, the Silent resounds within your mind as His words echo through the aether, "Congratulations, Arimisia. Your mastery of vermin cannot be disputed."
Nah. That's called "bad politicking" on Magnagora's part. You (plural) had it within your power to make it go a very different way, and chose (repeatedly) to further alienate an organization.
If you keep poking and prodding something, eventually it will bite back. That doesn't mean you're justified in "feeling betrayed". It just means you made bad choices.
Riiiiight, because Glom had obviously wanted to be allies with Magnagora. Not that everytime the idea of a treaty was suggested, yourself and others would raise all hell and drama, refusing such a standing. I believe Astraea may have had a few nose-bleeds during. We rather enjoy the brand on maeve, gives her a little touch of interesting.
That would be a prime example of "bad politicking" on Magnagora's part, yes. Thank you.
its not bad politics after you are told for so long no, you have to do this before we "might" even consider a real alliance with you all (no guarantee mind you), before you just don't care anymore you leave things as they are. Our relations with Glom were never overly good in my eyes, we worked together against a common enemy, otherwise we were not friends. We were not allowed in your territories, you killed our citizens. We allowed yours within our territory unless otherwise asked to leave. (kinds reminds me of the actual alliance we had with Seren actually except with was just undead and not just blanket Mag). There was always that undertone going on as well, I was actually working at one point to see what I could do about that whole Maeve thing, but Glom and all their little snide remarks about Mag gave me no reason to even want to help them so I quit. (this was around December of the last ascension)
Your relations with Glomdoring were never very good, because Magnagora had no interest in actually addressing the major issue between the two organizations. Every time we asked about the brand, "It's not possible". Multiple complaints were posted by Magnagorans on the forums saying "The admin say it's not possible, we can't do it, it's not worth even trying!" We never made a secret of what the problem was that was causing discord.
History time: For a couple of years, Raziela had a "brand" on her arm. Celest, Glomdoring, and Serenwilde were told by the administration, on an IC level (Maeve, Supernals, etc.) that it was not possible to remove it. The difference here is this: Celest never threw their hands up in the air on an in-character level, said "We don't care," and ignored it. They kept working on it, roleplaying for it, and eventually they got the change they were looking for.
Magnagora had the same opportunity if they had wanted it. However, on an in-character level, they heard that it "was not possible" and said, "Oh, okay then, we just won't bother". Past precedent, however, indicates that consistent and concerted roleplay can indeed change the world (Glomdoring opening when it did, Raziela's bracelet, and so on and so forth).
From an in-character point of view, it was very obvious that Magnagora's residents just had no interest. From an out-of-character point, everything we heard is "the admin told us it's not possible so we can't be bothered to try" (which, to me, is a form of metagaming-- your characters don't know anything about an 'administration' and, if they truly wanted something, would continue researching / investigating / trying to figure out how to do it despite a few setbacks).
Glomdoring responded to the in-character lack-of-action. All it would've taken was an interest (note: the interest had to be expressed to us, we can't be expected to know things when we're not told!), and things would have thawed in that respect.
PS: Note that, during this period, we actually discussed this with multiple Magnagorans on an OOC level who accused us of being "unreasonable." Our characters would have accepted a show of good faith and continued effort, and we'd have happily worked along with that. Alas, it never actually went anywhere in-game.
I had actually never head about the admins saying it was not possable until later to be honest. None from Glom ever came to me as a GM it was Morkarion who was like, oh this is why and I was like oh well.. and I did my did through history to find out what I could about it even though I was there for it - always good to brush up. I asked around to see what others knew about it and even their facts were very skewed on it. My character has reason not to like Glom but I player her with enough reasoning to be able to get over herself and work for the better of her city and not for just herself and what she want's. but, she hears a lot of things because she is such a quiet leader and like I said, I heard a lot of things and seen a lot of things that personally made me drop the whole effort that everyone was against in the first place. Ari is a person people will at least listen to when she present things to them especially if there is a reasonable solution, just never got to the solution part because Glom put the foot in their own mouth with at least this one City leader who was willing.
As I have said to the other leaders more recently, this is in the past, this is well in the past now and there is nothing that can be done to change it. it is what we do now that matters. Do I want to help you now? No, not really. Can you change my mind? Certainly. I don't hate you all, not by any means ^^ only one Org takes that cake and its not even Celest! (hate is pretty strong there too, there is a very strong dislike and even then it is probably just for certain individuals that left a sour taste in my mouth). So there ya go.
I feel like, by the point you got in place, things were pretty much "set in stone" as far as the organizational relations go between Magnagora and Glomdoring. There wasn't much adjusting or budging and it had been reduced to pretty much what you describe ("We want it gone!" "We don't want to touch it!"), which leaves little room for any further dialogue. I know that I never heard a peep about Arimisia being interested in addressing the brand (if I had, you would have had Xenthos breaking down your door-- figuratively, at least :P )
Guys, I think you're missing the point. What Xenthos is saying is that if you'd actually rp'd like you give a damn whether Maeve is branded or not and rp'd like you wanted it removed, even if the admin wouldn't do it, we'd still have Glom military might in the south alliance.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Nah. That's called "bad politicking" on Magnagora's part. You (plural) had it within your power to make it go a very different way, and chose (repeatedly) to further alienate an organization.
If you keep poking and prodding something, eventually it will bite back. That doesn't mean you're justified in "feeling betrayed". It just means you made bad choices.
Riiiiight, because Glom had obviously wanted to be allies with Magnagora. Not that everytime the idea of a treaty was suggested, yourself and others would raise all hell and drama, refusing such a standing. I believe Astraea may have had a few nose-bleeds during. We rather enjoy the brand on maeve, gives her a little touch of interesting.
That would be a prime example of "bad politicking" on Magnagora's part, yes. Thank you.
its not bad politics after you are told for so long no, you have to do this before we "might" even consider a real alliance with you all (no guarantee mind you), before you just don't care anymore you leave things as they are. Our relations with Glom were never overly good in my eyes, we worked together against a common enemy, otherwise we were not friends. We were not allowed in your territories, you killed our citizens. We allowed yours within our territory unless otherwise asked to leave. (kinds reminds me of the actual alliance we had with Seren actually except with was just undead and not just blanket Mag). There was always that undertone going on as well, I was actually working at one point to see what I could do about that whole Maeve thing, but Glom and all their little snide remarks about Mag gave me no reason to even want to help them so I quit. (this was around December of the last ascension)
Your relations with Glomdoring were never very good, because Magnagora had no interest in actually addressing the major issue between the two organizations. Every time we asked about the brand, "It's not possible". Multiple complaints were posted by Magnagorans on the forums saying "The admin say it's not possible, we can't do it, it's not worth even trying!" We never made a secret of what the problem was that was causing discord.
History time: For a couple of years, Raziela had a "brand" on her arm. Celest, Glomdoring, and Serenwilde were told by the administration, on an IC level (Maeve, Supernals, etc.) that it was not possible to remove it. The difference here is this: Celest never threw their hands up in the air on an in-character level, said "We don't care," and ignored it. They kept working on it, roleplaying for it, and eventually they got the change they were looking for.
Magnagora had the same opportunity if they had wanted it. However, on an in-character level, they heard that it "was not possible" and said, "Oh, okay then, we just won't bother". Past precedent, however, indicates that consistent and concerted roleplay can indeed change the world (Glomdoring opening when it did, Raziela's bracelet, and so on and so forth).
From an in-character point of view, it was very obvious that Magnagora's residents just had no interest. From an out-of-character point, everything we heard is "the admin told us it's not possible so we can't be bothered to try" (which, to me, is a form of metagaming-- your characters don't know anything about an 'administration' and, if they truly wanted something, would continue researching / investigating / trying to figure out how to do it despite a few setbacks).
Glomdoring responded to the in-character lack-of-action. All it would've taken was an interest (note: the interest had to be expressed to us, we can't be expected to know things when we're not told!), and things would have thawed in that respect.
PS: Note that, during this period, we actually discussed this with multiple Magnagorans on an OOC level who accused us of being "unreasonable." Our characters would have accepted a show of good faith and continued effort, and we'd have happily worked along with that. Alas, it never actually went anywhere in-game.
I had actually never head about the admins saying it was not possable until later to be honest. None from Glom ever came to me as a GM it was Morkarion who was like, oh this is why and I was like oh well.. and I did my did through history to find out what I could about it even though I was there for it - always good to brush up. I asked around to see what others knew about it and even their facts were very skewed on it. My character has reason not to like Glom but I player her with enough reasoning to be able to get over herself and work for the better of her city and not for just herself and what she want's. but, she hears a lot of things because she is such a quiet leader and like I said, I heard a lot of things and seen a lot of things that personally made me drop the whole effort that everyone was against in the first place. Ari is a person people will at least listen to when she present things to them especially if there is a reasonable solution, just never got to the solution part because Glom put the foot in their own mouth with at least this one City leader who was willing.
As I have said to the other leaders more recently, this is in the past, this is well in the past now and there is nothing that can be done to change it. it is what we do now that matters. Do I want to help you now? No, not really. Can you change my mind? Certainly. I don't hate you all, not by any means ^^ only one Org takes that cake and its not even Celest! (hate is pretty strong there too, there is a very strong dislike and even then it is probably just for certain individuals that left a sour taste in my mouth). So there ya go.
I feel like, by the point you got in place, things were pretty much "set in stone" as far as the organizational relations go between Magnagora and Glomdoring. There wasn't much adjusting or budging and it had been reduced to pretty much what you describe ("We want it gone!" "We don't want to touch it!"), which leaves little room for any further dialogue. I know that I never heard a peep about Arimisia being interested in addressing the brand (if I had, you would have had Xenthos breaking down your door-- figuratively, at least :P )
Ari is pretty quiet she rather work alone, Mork was the only one who really talked to her at all about it. I mentioned December last year was about the time she was poking around at it and questioning people. @Silvanus should remember because I know I asked him.
The soft, hollow voice of Nocht, the Silent resounds within your mind as His words echo through the aether, "Congratulations, Arimisia. Your mastery of vermin cannot be disputed."
Unlike the historical grievances you mention, this one is actually very much still present today. You can go look at Maeve, and there's the brand. Stand next to her, and she has multiple emotes referencing it (all indicating that it pains her / weakens her / etc).
It's still very much a current event, for the Glomdoring.
Because you still exist and keep bringing it up bitterly.
Karlach is an Ascendent from Glomdoring, that is still very much current, even if he isn't active, but that is still just as current (if not more so) than Maeve.
You realize that it's not just me who brings it up, yes? Every person who posts about Magnagora in the Glomdoring mentions it. It is the single strongest and most compelling reason not to trust Magnagorans. You can call it "bitter" as much as you want, that does not change that it exists, that it is damaging to Maeve (and by extension, every single Fae including Night/Crow/Hart/Moon), and that as long as Magnagora has no interest in addressing the fact they cannot be trusted by a nature-based organization.
It's that simple.
Again, this goes back to calling out injustices done but not recognizing your own. Both sides have committed atrocities, you have to diplomatically solve that. The only options Glom was presenting was give us concessions and say you were sorry and we will ally you. Your allyship would've not been worth that, Glom didn't offer anything at all. You demanded we recognize our attacks but fail to see your own. Failure to even see that just makes Glomdoring look childish in talks.
It's that simple.
And on my bitter note to even keep bringing it up just recognizes the unfortunate stupidity that has shackled Magnagora by the admin. It's not like there was really much of a choice (ICly), when Fain and Raezon come to Magnagora with a plan, it's not like you could say no (at the time, we've learned, from situations like this). We don't grovel towards our divine and have terrible respect for them because of a lot of the bullshit that has happened because of situations where they've led us, why would we grovel to Glomdoring too? You can't even look at it objectively or fairly.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
Guys, I think you're missing the point. What Xenthos is saying is that if you'd actually rp'd like you give a damn whether Maeve is branded or not and rp'd like you wanted it removed, even if the admin wouldn't do it, we'd still have Glom military might in the south alliance.
And my point is if they actually addressed their own faults as well as crying about ours, we would've been more interested in talking. At least I would have.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
Unlike the historical grievances you mention, this one is actually very much still present today. You can go look at Maeve, and there's the brand. Stand next to her, and she has multiple emotes referencing it (all indicating that it pains her / weakens her / etc).
It's still very much a current event, for the Glomdoring.
Because you still exist and keep bringing it up bitterly.
Karlach is an Ascendent from Glomdoring, that is still very much current, even if he isn't active, but that is still just as current (if not more so) than Maeve.
You realize that it's not just me who brings it up, yes? Every person who posts about Magnagora in the Glomdoring mentions it. It is the single strongest and most compelling reason not to trust Magnagorans. You can call it "bitter" as much as you want, that does not change that it exists, that it is damaging to Maeve (and by extension, every single Fae including Night/Crow/Hart/Moon), and that as long as Magnagora has no interest in addressing the fact they cannot be trusted by a nature-based organization.
It's that simple.
Again, this goes back to calling out injustices done but not recognizing your own. Both sides have committed atrocities, you have to diplomatically solve that. The only options Glom was presenting was give us concessions and say you were sorry and we will ally you. Your allyship would've not been worth that, Glom didn't offer anything at all. You demanded we recognize our attacks but fail to see your own. Failure to even see that just makes Glomdoring look childish in talks.
It's that simple.
And on my bitter note to even keep bringing it up just recognizes the unfortunate stupidity that has shackled Magnagora by the admin. It's not like there was really much of a choice (ICly), when Fain and Raezon come to Magnagora with a plan, it's not like you could say no (at the time, we've learned, from situations like this). We don't grovel towards our divine and have terrible respect for them because of a lot of the bullshit that has happened because of situations where they've led us, why would we grovel to Glomdoring too? You can't even look at it objectively or fairly.
Glomdoring did not brand / permanently mark anything Magnagoran, and that's the huge difference. If it was the other way around, many of the people saying "ignore it and just move on!" would be reacting in exactly the opposite fashion ("You still have a brand on Nifilhema that makes her smell of beautiful roses and makes her burst out in spontaneous, joyous song! Remove it now!")
Note that I actually believe that you, personally, wouldn't care about such things in favour of more current events. You've always been a more "focus on the immediate here-and-now" kind of guy. What I don't believe is that Magnagora, in general, would be in agreement with that. More transitory things are much easier to sweep into the dustbin of history, permanent marks with ongoing and lasting effects are not.
The real villain in the hai'Gloh/Xion Initiative/Tainted Maeve stuff is Celest. That entire thing was Celest's fault. Tainted Maeve was just Magnagora's (enormous) recompense for getting dragged along and consequently getting the stuffing kicked out of it for weeks and weeks on Celest's behalf.
And on that note, it's completely in-character for Glom to be proactive and cut ties at the first whiff of 'inevitable betrayal' by an ally, formal or de facto. Even if Glom's stance on ascension had not been common knowledge to anyone who bothered to ask them about it all week, this should not have surprised anyone.
It's not like there was really much of a choice (ICly), when Fain and Raezon come to Magnagora with a plan, it's not like you could say no (at the time, we've learned, from situations like this). We don't grovel towards our divine and have terrible respect for them because of a lot of the bullshit that has happened because of situations where they've led us, why would we grovel to Glomdoring too? You can't even look at it objectively or fairly.
Gonna echo this. For the longest time, any time a divine in Mag said to do something, you did it. You didn't ask questions, you grovelled and did what they demanded.
Luckily, some people learned their lessons and learned how to say no tactfully.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Why don't we just settle this down before Nocht and Yomo jail me, and let's see what the next few weeks bring.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
Actually, technically, I'd like to point out that the -last- botched hai'Gloh, successful Xion Initiative, and the invasion of the Ethereal plane by the Demon Lords is my fault. It's what got Ev executed by drowning.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
Actually, technically, I'd like to point out that the -last- botched hai'Gloh, successful Xion Initiative, and the invasion of the Ethereal plane by the Demon Lords is my fault. It's what got Ev executed by drowning.
So I was poking around google images for a design involving the polyhedra of Continuum, and it turns out they're linked together in something like this.
(interestingly, the octahedra on Continuum are in fact very Air-elemental like, but I don't know if the purple text actually means anything). Am I the only one that didn't recognise this?
EDIT: Also, the Pyrochem substitute for fire essence is a little pyramid, and the Aquachem substitute for light essence is a cube.
tl;dr damn admin you scary.
Stop, Maligorn, you don't want to get forum banned and metagamed ingame for explaining to all, that Celest is the land of the squares! )
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
That's... not an accurate chart of the elements of the platonic solids, though. The cube is earth, isocahedron is water, tetrahedron is fire, octohedron is air, and dodecahedron is cosmos.
I'm Lucidian. If I don't get pedantic every so often, I might explode.
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EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
Except it wasn't Serenwilde who was complicit. They executed Ev precisely because he disobeyed the Moonhart Circle's edict (at the prompting of Glomdoring! :P ). Still one of my favorite RP experiences.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
I've said it before, but it became very very obvious to Magnagora that Glomdoring just weren't interested in friendship. I had several conversations with Svorai about it, and in those she said she wouldn't discuss terms or compromise. She would not listen to anything we suggested unless we first remove the brand. That was it, plain and simple. Remove the brand, and then we MAY (yes, only may) consider DISCUSSING friendship. It wasn't even 'remove it and then we'll talk details', it was just that big, impossible demand. After one conversation with Svorai, I asked her oocly if she knew the admin had told us that it was impossible, and she said she knew.
Now I'm not really pointing fingers at Svorai, I respect her roleplay and I do get where Glomdoring is coming from. But I don't think, @Xenthos, that you pause to think of how it affected us. I sure didn't know what the brand was. I've been playing for 5 RL years, and it was well before my time. We were told oocly in no uncertain terms 'not happening'. So yes, we could have rped some bull about researching or looking into it (I would have enjoyed probing a bit, I admit) but then, mobs were rarely even being possessed at that time. I don't know about anyone else, but the roleplay loses its appeal to me when there is already a foregone conclusion that I'm wasting my time.
If we'd even been told that removing it would -definitely- get us some sort of peace treaty, I'm sure we would have tried harder. But looking at it from our point of view, we were being asked to do the impossible, so Glom could sit and laugh at pathetic Mag desperately scrabble around to please the almighty Glomdoring. We even offered you assistance in the village tied most closely to us for a long long time, (much to the distaste of some in Mag). We tried to find other avenues to come at diplomacy, knowing what you wanted was a dead end.
So I get rather irritated with you sitting there saying it's all our fault. Glomdoring set us up to fail, and now you say 'I told you so' because we did? That's not very sportsmanlike. We could have done better, but we were given zero indication that anything we could possibly roleplay would make any difference, whatsoever. So, Magnagora being the proud nation it is, realised Glomdoring were treating us as fools, went 'alright, we get it, they don't want to talk, let's not talk' and let it lie. Though it was approached several times, each time we were knocked back with the same reasoning.
You know what would have been great for everyone? If Glom players, knowing they were asking us the impossible oocly, decided to bend an inch and say, maybe, 'if you agree to form a committee with us to research the removal' or something (pushing for action, not merely accepting the impossible end result you wanted before even considering listening to us) we probably would have jumped at it.
Perspective is a fine thing. It's very easy to sit and point your finger at us and say we didn't do enough, we are bad at politics, etc etc. That is not fair. You set us up to fail, our politics made no difference in Glom's demands. This spanned over THREE Warlords. There was some poor movements (Like the idiotic move of Daevos sending enemied ousted Revan to negotiate) I will admit, but it wasn't ALL our fault, and I think everyone can see and admit that.
I don't feel that we in any way "set you up to fail". I am absolutely positive that, if Magnagora had aggressively pursued it, the brand would be gone by now. One of the plethora of admin in Serenwilde, Glomdoring, or Magnagora would've put together a framework / proposal for an event, and something would have moved forward. Magnagora's lack of interest means that the only roleplay option is a hostile one, and I don't think anyone on the admin end has had an interest in pushing for more inter-org hostilities after the massive grief-fest of Hai'Gloh.
We also, as Glomdoring players, did tell you (and in this case, you specifically-- I have had this conversation with you before!) that the good-faith effort and display that you were working on it would have begun moving things in precisely the direction you discuss... and there was, in fact, no jumping at it.
I can also understand the lack of desire to pursue roleplay when you think you're not going to get any interactions. I've been pursuing this from my end for years. Years and years. It's even in an events post. Most of the time, you're right, there is little interaction. Yes, it's frustrating, but it's not going to change without players pushing for it.
Edit: I will edit in and say that Svorai saying "Remove it before we even begin to discuss" wasn't the best idea, either. I will agree that was also a mistake.
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EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
I think it's fairly obvious to those of us on the outside that egos on both sides sabotaged the process.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
I had word from a Magnagoran god oocly that it was -not- happening, no matter what we did, how hard we pushed, or how creative it was. NOT POSSIBLE. I got the impression there are some sort of plans being held for it, maybe. So what you are saying about the gods doing something about it was untrue. We were told explicitly. I don't know about you, but when I am told emphatically by admin something isn't happening, I tend to take their word for it.
We could have probed about it all the same, and I know you say you would have budged, but we weren't given any indications to this at all. Clearly we all misunderstood each other, But that is not just on us, if that's the case. The receiver of the message is not solely to blame for not understanding, when the messanger is not clear.
Unfortunately, by the time I got the message that if we at least made a show of looking into it something might happen, we were on warlord three and they also had the stance of not trying because we'd been told by admin it would do nothing. And I'm still just one little lackey in the corner. By then, everyone was pretty resigned to Glom being jerks to us and no longer interested in trying.
Anyway. My point is - please stop putting all the blame on us. We were backed into a corner, but we were half pushed there too. Now let's see where everything goes from here. I think interesting things are going to happen, and not just between Glom and Mag.
I had word from a Magnagoran god oocly that it was -not- happening, no matter what we did, how hard we pushed, or how creative it was. NOT POSSIBLE. I got the impression there are some sort of plans being held for it, maybe. So what you are saying about the gods doing something about it was untrue. We were told explicitly. I don't know about you, but when I am told emphatically by admin something isn't happening, I tend to take their word for it.
We could have probed about it all the same, and I know you say you would have budged, but we weren't given any indications to this at all. Clearly we all misunderstood each other, But that is not just on us, if that's the case. The receiver of the message is not solely to blame for not understanding, when the messanger is not clear.
Unfortunately, by the time I got the message that if we at least made a show of looking into it something might happen, we were on warlord three and they also had the stance of not trying because we'd been told by admin it would do nothing. And I'm still just one little lackey in the corner. By then, everyone was pretty resigned to Glom being jerks to us and no longer interested in trying.
Anyway. My point is - please stop putting all the blame on us. We were backed into a corner, but we were half pushed there too. Now let's see where everything goes from here. I think interesting things are going to happen, and not just between Glom and Mag.
If you look back up, you'll see that I did edit something in to that effect. It could have been phrased and put to you much better. I do not dispute that.
As to the "being told by the Admin" thing, Celest was told the same thing about Raziela's brand, often and repeatedly; it couldn't happen. Until, eventually, it did; the result of concerted and repeated roleplay attempts, investigation, pursuit, and so on. The Admin are not infallible, either! Everything that they say has the potential for change, especially with a great deal of player input.
I had word from a Magnagoran god oocly that it was -not- happening, no matter what we did, how hard we pushed, or how creative it was. NOT POSSIBLE. I got the impression there are some sort of plans being held for it, maybe. So what you are saying about the gods doing something about it was untrue. We were told explicitly. I don't know about you, but when I am told emphatically by admin something isn't happening, I tend to take their word for it.
We could have probed about it all the same, and I know you say you would have budged, but we weren't given any indications to this at all. Clearly we all misunderstood each other, But that is not just on us, if that's the case. The receiver of the message is not solely to blame for not understanding, when the messanger is not clear.
Unfortunately, by the time I got the message that if we at least made a show of looking into it something might happen, we were on warlord three and they also had the stance of not trying because we'd been told by admin it would do nothing. And I'm still just one little lackey in the corner. By then, everyone was pretty resigned to Glom being jerks to us and no longer interested in trying.
Anyway. My point is - please stop putting all the blame on us. We were backed into a corner, but we were half pushed there too. Now let's see where everything goes from here. I think interesting things are going to happen, and not just between Glom and Mag.
If you look back up, you'll see that I did edit something in to that effect. It could have been phrased and put to you much better. I do not dispute that.
As to the "being told by the Admin" thing, Celest was told the same thing about Raziela's brand, often and repeatedly; it couldn't happen. Until, eventually, it did; the result of concerted and repeated roleplay attempts, investigation, pursuit, and so on. The Admin are not infallible, either! Everything that they say has the potential for change, especially with a great deal of player input.
So basically what you believe is that Mag players should push the admin both icly and oocly to remove this brand no matter how much the admin say no, or else you're not gonna play nicely.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Yes but, why would Magnagora care so much about the brand and an alliance to go through those kind of hoops? Who of any of the cities would be that dedicated to do anything for the fae? Especially just for the possibility of being listened to?
IC I am sure it is completely reasonable, but ooc, you the player, do you honestly not think you were demanding an awful lot? Do you really think a fragile alliance is worth an org beating it's head against a brick wall in the hope the admin eventually get sick of us and give in?
I had word from a Magnagoran god oocly that it was -not- happening, no matter what we did, how hard we pushed, or how creative it was. NOT POSSIBLE. I got the impression there are some sort of plans being held for it, maybe. So what you are saying about the gods doing something about it was untrue. We were told explicitly. I don't know about you, but when I am told emphatically by admin something isn't happening, I tend to take their word for it.
We could have probed about it all the same, and I know you say you would have budged, but we weren't given any indications to this at all. Clearly we all misunderstood each other, But that is not just on us, if that's the case. The receiver of the message is not solely to blame for not understanding, when the messanger is not clear.
Unfortunately, by the time I got the message that if we at least made a show of looking into it something might happen, we were on warlord three and they also had the stance of not trying because we'd been told by admin it would do nothing. And I'm still just one little lackey in the corner. By then, everyone was pretty resigned to Glom being jerks to us and no longer interested in trying.
Anyway. My point is - please stop putting all the blame on us. We were backed into a corner, but we were half pushed there too. Now let's see where everything goes from here. I think interesting things are going to happen, and not just between Glom and Mag.
If you look back up, you'll see that I did edit something in to that effect. It could have been phrased and put to you much better. I do not dispute that.
As to the "being told by the Admin" thing, Celest was told the same thing about Raziela's brand, often and repeatedly; it couldn't happen. Until, eventually, it did; the result of concerted and repeated roleplay attempts, investigation, pursuit, and so on. The Admin are not infallible, either! Everything that they say has the potential for change, especially with a great deal of player input.
So basically what you believe is that Mag players should push the admin both icly and oocly to remove this brand no matter how much the admin say no, or else you're not gonna play nicely.
No. Mag players can choose how their characters react. If their characters want an alliance / friendship with a Nature organization, then they should be willing to put in time and effort to roleplay how to make that happen (and, frankly, it cannot while the ultimate embodiment of Nature, Maeve, remains scarred / weakened / damaged magically). It was up to them to choose which path to take.
One was "Look, we understand there's damage, we'll look into what we can do and strengthen bonds with each other through pursuing how to address it." The other was, "We don't really care, we just want to use the strength you've got and otherwise do nothing for long-term relations."
To Lavinya: Yes, I absolutely do believe it is reasonable (especially because I don't see it as a brick wall, but more of being a door that just needed a firm knock). I unequivocally believe that, if that had happened, Glomdoring would have had a great deal of faith and trust in Magnagora (though obviously, I can't say it would definitely have flowed back towards us, I feel the process would have made strong bonds between the two).
What I do not believe is reasonable is, on an OOC level, stating that nothing can ever happen unless the Administration agrees to give in (because that's not fair). But asking both sides to band together for a common cause, and roleplay for it together is a very different thing in my mind, and that's all that was really being sought.
For all you know, Estarra already has it planned out two years from now for an event, but you're willing to throw a fit icly because Mag didn't throw enough fits at the admin to get it removed.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Comments
Karlach is an Ascendent from Glomdoring, that is still very much current, even if he isn't active, but that is still just as current (if not more so) than Maeve.
PS: From my standpoint, the ending isn't really so sad. We did not wait to get stabbed in the back, and chose to act. The person we backed won.
PPS: The fact that you don't understand the Maeve brand is very telling.
It's that simple.
As I have said to the other leaders more recently, this is in the past, this is well in the past now and there is nothing that can be done to change it. it is what we do now that matters. Do I want to help you now? No, not really. Can you change my mind? Certainly. I don't hate you all, not by any means ^^ only one Org takes that cake and its not even Celest! (hate is pretty strong there too, there is a very strong dislike and even then it is probably just for certain individuals that left a sour taste in my mouth). So there ya go.
Guys, I think you're missing the point. What Xenthos is saying is that if you'd actually rp'd like you give a damn whether Maeve is branded or not and rp'd like you wanted it removed, even if the admin wouldn't do it, we'd still have Glom military might in the south alliance.
It's that simple.
And on my bitter note to even keep bringing it up just recognizes the unfortunate stupidity that has shackled Magnagora by the admin. It's not like there was really much of a choice (ICly), when Fain and Raezon come to Magnagora with a plan, it's not like you could say no (at the time, we've learned, from situations like this). We don't grovel towards our divine and have terrible respect for them because of a lot of the bullshit that has happened because of situations where they've led us, why would we grovel to Glomdoring too? You can't even look at it objectively or fairly.
Note that I actually believe that you, personally, wouldn't care about such things in favour of more current events. You've always been a more "focus on the immediate here-and-now" kind of guy. What I don't believe is that Magnagora, in general, would be in agreement with that. More transitory things are much easier to sweep into the dustbin of history, permanent marks with ongoing and lasting effects are not.
And on that note, it's completely in-character for Glom to be proactive and cut ties at the first whiff of 'inevitable betrayal' by an ally, formal or de facto. Even if Glom's stance on ascension had not been common knowledge to anyone who bothered to ask them about it all week, this should not have surprised anyone.
Vive l'apostrophe!
Luckily, some people learned their lessons and learned how to say no tactfully.
Now I'm not really pointing fingers at Svorai, I respect her roleplay and I do get where Glomdoring is coming from. But I don't think, @Xenthos, that you pause to think of how it affected us. I sure didn't know what the brand was. I've been playing for 5 RL years, and it was well before my time. We were told oocly in no uncertain terms 'not happening'. So yes, we could have rped some bull about researching or looking into it (I would have enjoyed probing a bit, I admit) but then, mobs were rarely even being possessed at that time. I don't know about anyone else, but the roleplay loses its appeal to me when there is already a foregone conclusion that I'm wasting my time.
If we'd even been told that removing it would -definitely- get us some sort of peace treaty, I'm sure we would have tried harder. But looking at it from our point of view, we were being asked to do the impossible, so Glom could sit and laugh at pathetic Mag desperately scrabble around to please the almighty Glomdoring. We even offered you assistance in the village tied most closely to us for a long long time, (much to the distaste of some in Mag). We tried to find other avenues to come at diplomacy, knowing what you wanted was a dead end.
So I get rather irritated with you sitting there saying it's all our fault. Glomdoring set us up to fail, and now you say 'I told you so' because we did? That's not very sportsmanlike. We could have done better, but we were given zero indication that anything we could possibly roleplay would make any difference, whatsoever. So, Magnagora being the proud nation it is, realised Glomdoring were treating us as fools, went 'alright, we get it, they don't want to talk, let's not talk' and let it lie. Though it was approached several times, each time we were knocked back with the same reasoning.
You know what would have been great for everyone? If Glom players, knowing they were asking us the impossible oocly, decided to bend an inch and say, maybe, 'if you agree to form a committee with us to research the removal' or something (pushing for action, not merely accepting the impossible end result you wanted before even considering listening to us) we probably would have jumped at it.
Perspective is a fine thing. It's very easy to sit and point your finger at us and say we didn't do enough, we are bad at politics, etc etc. That is not fair. You set us up to fail, our politics made no difference in Glom's demands. This spanned over THREE Warlords. There was some poor movements (Like the idiotic move of Daevos sending enemied ousted Revan to negotiate) I will admit, but it wasn't ALL our fault, and I think everyone can see and admit that.
We also, as Glomdoring players, did tell you (and in this case, you specifically-- I have had this conversation with you before!) that the good-faith effort and display that you were working on it would have begun moving things in precisely the direction you discuss... and there was, in fact, no jumping at it.
I can also understand the lack of desire to pursue roleplay when you think you're not going to get any interactions. I've been pursuing this from my end for years. Years and years. It's even in an events post. Most of the time, you're right, there is little interaction. Yes, it's frustrating, but it's not going to change without players pushing for it.
Edit: I will edit in and say that Svorai saying "Remove it before we even begin to discuss" wasn't the best idea, either. I will agree that was also a mistake.
We could have probed about it all the same, and I know you say you would have budged, but we weren't given any indications to this at all. Clearly we all misunderstood each other, But that is not just on us, if that's the case. The receiver of the message is not solely to blame for not understanding, when the messanger is not clear.
Unfortunately, by the time I got the message that if we at least made a show of looking into it something might happen, we were on warlord three and they also had the stance of not trying because we'd been told by admin it would do nothing. And I'm still just one little lackey in the corner. By then, everyone was pretty resigned to Glom being jerks to us and no longer interested in trying.
Anyway. My point is - please stop putting all the blame on us. We were backed into a corner, but we were half pushed there too. Now let's see where everything goes from here. I think interesting things are going to happen, and not just between Glom and Mag.
As to the "being told by the Admin" thing, Celest was told the same thing about Raziela's brand, often and repeatedly; it couldn't happen. Until, eventually, it did; the result of concerted and repeated roleplay attempts, investigation, pursuit, and so on. The Admin are not infallible, either! Everything that they say has the potential for change, especially with a great deal of player input.
IC I am sure it is completely reasonable, but ooc, you the player, do you honestly not think you were demanding an awful lot? Do you really think a fragile alliance is worth an org beating it's head against a brick wall in the hope the admin eventually get sick of us and give in?
characters want an alliance / friendship with a Nature organization,
then they should be willing to put in time and effort to roleplay how to
make that happen (and, frankly, it cannot
while the ultimate embodiment of Nature, Maeve, remains scarred /
weakened / damaged magically). It was up to them to choose which path
to take.
One was "Look, we understand there's damage, we'll look
into what we can do and strengthen bonds with each other through
pursuing how to address it." The other was, "We don't really care, we
just want to use the strength you've got and otherwise do nothing for
long-term relations."
To Lavinya: Yes, I absolutely do believe it is reasonable
(especially because I don't see it as a brick wall, but more of being a
door that just needed a firm knock). I unequivocally believe that, if
that had happened, Glomdoring would have had a great deal of faith and
trust in Magnagora (though obviously, I can't say it would definitely
have flowed back towards us, I feel the process would have made strong
bonds between the two).
What I do not believe is reasonable is, on an OOC level, stating that nothing can ever happen unless the Administration agrees to give in (because that's not fair). But asking both sides to band together for a common cause, and roleplay for it together is a very different thing in my mind, and that's all that was really being sought.