I don't see it as a bribe, but I do think it helps with say, domoths, which can be boring and time consuming if uncontested, so knowing you're going to get a little something back probably encourages greater participation.
I -much- prefer giving out credits for a little effort than credit sales. I hate credit sales.
@Salome: Wasn't your fault, you went with what you heard. Honestly I am glad you want to do something with librarian, I'm one of those bitter vets discouraged by people not participating in contests, but then again Glom was kinda rather dead and empty until recently. Glad that is turning around. I'm going to sleep on it and suck it up and then just focus on the good things in the game. Like, I dunno, getting to know you IC or something :P Although I've already informed there might be possible awkward there so that'll be funny. Anyway, thanks for being on the ball, because it could have very well been a case of someone deleting stuff. That has sadly happened. Just not me.
There are some funnies yes. Looking forward to seeing more of Ria around.
The apple is cold, crisp, and sour as the juices fill your mouth. As you consume the fruit, you glimpse, for a moment, a massive, shadowy figure, Her snow-white hair framing a perfect, icy-eyed visage. Beneath you, a vast, perfect web of silken strands lies - and, for a moment, you realize that you too are part of it, weaver and strand both - and home.
First off, I would like to apologize, @Rialorm, if you felt that I was attacking you. If you noticed, I never once mentioned you, never implied that it was the previous librarian who might have deleted and that I never implied that you were not doing your job. People from PF who were present while I was online and even @Ssaliss in our private PMs never thought that it was you who deleted it. If you want quotes of the PMs I can send you that. That it was never assumed that you yourself might have deleted it would have, to my mind, at least shown our confidence in you. Yes, it escaped us to ask you what happened to it and yes, we assumed the worst: that some, not you, used an alt to somehow get hold of the project and deleted it. With all the recent alt abuse and subsequent punishments for it happening, I guess we/I cannot be blamed for jumping to the worst conclusion. All these things being said, again, I would like to apologize if you feel you were being attacked.
I still would like to stress the importance of keeping records especially when rewards are involved, but eh, I'm not the librarian anymore. So if the current librarian, @Salome, doesn't want to keep track of things, feel free to forget about recording.
Yes, I looked like an idiot over the forums, folks. I'll charge it to experience. Also, alt abuse happens. It shouldn't, but it does.
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
Shrug city. The only reason there -aren't- credit rewards for PK conquests is because none of our PKers have ever asked for them. I'm okay with changing that or keeping it the same; doesn't make much difference to me.
Being that someone who is serious about PK will already be purchasing credits and not knowing what to do with them, I guess that's part of it. Beyond that, I guess it might interest people that are not as serious a bit more... but eh... 1 credit won't change the fact that they're missing skills/artifacts/etc. Not by a large margin. That said, you can't go overboard with your credit rewards for PK either... although I do feel we've gone overboard with our credit rewards for library stuff.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Shrug city. The only reason there -aren't- credit rewards for PK conquests is because none of our PKers have ever asked for them. I'm okay with changing that or keeping it the same; doesn't make much difference to me.
There used to be a system for this, dunno what happened to it.
Crumkane, Lord of Epicurean Delights says, "WAS IT INDEED ON FIRE, ERITHEYL."
-
With a deep reverb, Contemptible Sutekh says, "CEASE YOUR INFERNAL ENERGY, ERITHEYL."
Shrug city. The only reason there -aren't- credit rewards for PK conquests is because none of our PKers have ever asked for them. I'm okay with changing that or keeping it the same; doesn't make much difference to me.
Being that someone who is serious about PK will already be purchasing credits and not knowing what to do with them, I guess that's part of it. Beyond that, I guess it might interest people that are not as serious a bit more... but eh... 1 credit won't change the fact that they're missing skills/artifacts/etc. Not by a large margin. That said, you can't go overboard with your credit rewards for PK either... although I do feel we've gone overboard with our credit rewards for library stuff.
You're right, you're not targetting the serious PKers with a 1 credit reward for participating. They'll participate either way. You're targetting the ones that wouldn't otherwise participate. One credit won't make a huge difference, but one credit turns into two, and then four etc. And as you accumulate these credits, your comfort with combat grows, you become more aware of things going on, maybe add some highlights so you catch a certain attack. And suddenly you're like @Neos and bragging about anytime you escape someone.
Has anyone, anywhere, ever actually done a design or ideas contest that people did seem to care about?
I once got 17 entries from Gaudiguch with a contest that had scaling participation and prize credit rewards depending on how many people entered. More entries -> more credits for everyone. The thought was to get people invested and effectively pay them to do some of the chasing.
I think Halli's credit rewards for CR6+ conquest contributions (Alderman rewards) kinda just died because aside from Arel and a few others, no one kept up with updating chelps/projects and when they stopped playing it fizzled out. Might have been something else to it, but then somewhere along the line we changed from marking the Alder favours in the logs to 'ineligible for further favour'.
Wasn't that bad a reward system though, an always on city credit sale that you can cash in on whenever.
I think Halli's credit rewards for CR6+ conquest contributions (Alderman rewards) kinda just died because aside from Arel and a few others, no one kept up with updating chelps/projects and when they stopped playing it fizzled out. Might have been something else to it, but then somewhere along the line we changed from marking the Alder favours in the logs to 'ineligible for further favour'.
Wasn't that bad a reward system though, an always on city credit sale that you can cash in on whenever.
It required upkeep of a project, and projects being what they are, could only be managed by a limited number of people (maybe just the project leader and CL? Not quite sure how project editing power is distributed). Bureaucracy RP is fun and all, but having to actually constantly update projects and help scrolls isn't. I have a suspicion we'll be reopening the issue soon, though. It'd be nice if CR6 semi-coms got tossed a little bone for helping with flares and villages and stuff.
Tbh part of me still boggles a little at our library rewards, but it makes sense for Culture Capital Hallifax to extravagantly pamper its writers. The caste system is about soldiers and merchants and stuff supporting the artists and scholars, so all the PKers' credit purchases ultimately fund Portius.
(Also, self-serving as they may be for P-dawg, everybody can take advantage of the library rewards)
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited March 2015
Caste system RP is fine and all, but funneling org credits away from some players and into the hands of others when access to them rightfully belongs to everyone is not cool. I don't know what the rewards actually are but the way people keep commenting, they must be pretty bananas.
Caste system RP is fine and all, but funneling org credits away from some players and into the hands of others when access to them rightfully belongs to everyone is not cool. I don't know what the rewards actually are but the way people keep commenting, they must be pretty bananas.
A talkative pigeon told me the reward(s) for winning are:
o 500 cr o You get to make the librarian your slave for a day
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
#bringShikariback
2
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
For winning prestige? That's not even realistic, that can't be right.
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
#bringShikariback
1
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I'm just saying...there are generous rewards for writing already in this game and those rewards don't come at the expense of other players who have equal right to access org credits. 500 credits is a huge drop in the communal bucket just to give 1 player because lolcastesyetem!
I'm just saying...there are generous rewards for writing already in this game and those rewards don't come at the expense of other players who have equal right to access org credits. 500 credits is a huge drop in the communal bucket just to give 1 player because lolcastesyetem!
I believe the amount is... divide by 10. I haven't looked and can't really at present, but if it's 500cr for a book, I'm going on strike.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Our current rewards are 2x weight for a book that passes review and 100 credits for a prestige win, though we've discussed dropping it back down to 50. At present, we do not require the librarian to be your slave for a day unless you win literary and scholarly at the same time. (This last bit is a joke. I am joking. Siam is joking too.)
2
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Oh, that's cool. Carry on. I shall put my indignant PKer outrage back in the box.
For the sake of full information in this surprisingly long discussions, I present a brief history of Hallifax's library credits, from the point where I became librarian onward:
This is what it was when I started.
1,000-2,499 words: 5 credits Some brackets that I don't exactly remember that didn't precisely match up with the scoring brackets. +1 credit for each bracket 10,000 words or more: 10 credits Prestige Victory: 10 Credits
The problem with this one was that it disproportionately rewarded 1k word books. Writing ten times the words only doubled the credits. That isn't a huge deal, since most books end up with the 1k bracket anyway, but it does discourage long books. Since long books do tend to do better in prestige, and prestige is the most important thing for library scoring, that's suboptimal. Just not hugely so. The Board was then easily convinced (by me) to change it to this:
Those values are the same as the point values for those brackets, except for prestige. One credit for one library point. Prestige is actually 100 points, but we left it at 50 for the sake of not draining the treasury. This system avoided favoring either long or short books, and I think that's overall a good thing. Doesn't discourage people who want to write short things by paying worse per word for them than for long things, but doesn't discourage writing long things by underpaying for them, either. You could justifiably decide that one of those should be favored and pay accordingly, but I do think this way is best for Hallifax.
That was all well and good until I learned that Magnagora paid 7 credits for 1000-2499 word books. This offended me. Hallifax had to have the best overall payments. It's not so much about the actual credits at that point as it is about being able to say that we paid more. So I had to increase that bracket, but I wanted to maintain the proportionality. So I just asked the Board to double everything, and they agreed without complaint. There was an understanding that if it becomes unsustainable they can be dropped, particularly prestige. That brings us to our current scheme.
1,000-2,499 words: 10 credits 2,500-5,999 words: 24 credits 6,000-9,999 words: 50 credits 10,000 words or more: 100 credits Prestige Victory: 100 [50, if reserves low] Credits
I'm not convinced that we'll stay at 100 for prestige. At the rate we've been winning them, that will not be sustainable. I presented it to the Board with the option of not doubling prestige rewards for precisely that reason. We'll see how that goes.
For scale, our average total payments for publication seem to come out to 30-40 credits every game year. Sometimes we do more and sometimes we do less, but ballparking it off of my notes, that should be about right. On top of that there's prestige every two years. Lately we've done extremely well in that, but I doubt that our recent successes are going to be representative of our long-term prospects there.
----- Additionally, the Institute and Aeromancers have their own reward systems in place. The Institute just throws in a few credits depending on book length, although less than the city provides. Aeromancers have a weird thing with point values and scaling payouts to guild rank. I am the one who lobbied Vivet for Institute payouts, and I believe it was Ayisdra who lobbied the Aeromancers for theirs.
----------
As for Hallifax not paying combatants, that probably comes down to not having any who care about it enough to ask. Given the lack of Board resistance to me upping library credits, I doubt there would be an issue. My intuition on that is that it might be better for new people to buy them a system rather than just handing over credits directly and then have credits for the CR6 people, but I'm not an expert and can't comment with confidence.
-------
On generous writing rewards outside of org credits: they don't exist. They are a myth for most people. The only other way to get writing credits is through bardics, and those are competitive. If you've got a small population drawing on them, they're fine. But the expected value of an entry goes way down when there's competition. At the rate that most people can write an entry for them the credits per hour just aren't very good. Beyond that, there's one bardic per month. No matter how much you work at it, there's only so many credits that can come out in a given span of real life time. Plus, most bardic credits come from advancing the titles, and the good payouts from those take a lot of wins to get to.
Sure, if you can win bardics consistently, then they are great. There's no denying that. And if you're writing for the library you really should put your book in for the bardics, because it costs you nothing to do so. And if you enter enough over a sufficiently large period of real months, you can get a lot from them. But it takes a very long time to do that for most people, so if they're the only source of writing credits you can't get too far from them in a reasonable amount of time.
Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
I'm just saying...there are generous rewards for writing already in this game and those rewards don't come at the expense of other players who have equal right to access org credits. 500 credits is a huge drop in the communal bucket just to give 1 player because lolcastesyetem!
I believe the amount is... divide by 10. I haven't looked and can't really at present, but if it's 500cr for a book, I'm going on strike.
Or instead of going on strike you could write a book. :P
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
1
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
My fault for trusting Siam! Though my point is still valid, it's just not relevant. Bardic awards snowball, and as someone who used bardics to Trans some skills, they aren't a myth! I never won and only ever ranked up once but my effort was minimal and I'm not a particularly talented writer. Yes, it does take a while, but enormously rewarding for those that keep at it. If you enter every month for a year, and only ever win merit, you get 600 credits just from ranking up, plus the credits for each merit which they give out pretty liberally. So that's 1200 total in a year. That's the equivalent of a Seal's tradein value just from entering for your first year. It only goes up from there! Pretty generous for those that bother with it.
And yes, the bardics and artisanals are lovely. I earned 90% of my credits from entering! One doesn't have anything to lose anyway and a LOT to gain.
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
I'm not the only one! I'd be shocked if I didn't get the most out of it, but there are other beneficiaries who can can reveal themselves or not as they please.
EDIT: I do feel like I should point out that the supplemental guild credits are my favorite part. I feel like that's a great place to put culture rewards to reduce strain on city finances, especially for guilds like the Institute that have culture-centric fluff. I know that if I was in the Symphonium I'd push for bonus stage credits, for example. You can even bias them to reinforce that fluff, like how the Institute pays more for scholarly books than literary and more for lectures than other stage things.
Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
Comments
I don't see it as a bribe, but I do think it helps with say, domoths, which can be boring and time consuming if uncontested, so knowing you're going to get a little something back probably encourages greater participation.
I -much- prefer giving out credits for a little effort than credit sales. I hate credit sales.
I still would like to stress the importance of keeping records especially when rewards are involved, but eh, I'm not the librarian anymore. So if the current librarian, @Salome, doesn't want to keep track of things, feel free to forget about recording.
Yes, I looked like an idiot over the forums, folks. I'll charge it to experience. Also, alt abuse happens. It shouldn't, but it does.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
The Inner Sea. I take commissions doe.
-
Wasn't that bad a reward system though, an always on city credit sale that you can cash in on whenever.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
o 500 cr
o You get to make the librarian your slave for a day
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
This is what it was when I started.
1,000-2,499 words: 5 credits
Some brackets that I don't exactly remember that didn't precisely match up with the scoring brackets. +1 credit for each bracket
10,000 words or more: 10 credits
Prestige Victory: 10 Credits
The problem with this one was that it disproportionately rewarded 1k word books. Writing ten times the words only doubled the credits. That isn't a huge deal, since most books end up with the 1k bracket anyway, but it does discourage long books. Since long books do tend to do better in prestige, and prestige is the most important thing for library scoring, that's suboptimal. Just not hugely so. The Board was then easily convinced (by me) to change it to this:
1,000-2,499 words: 5 credits
2,500-5,999 words: 12 credits
6,000-9,999 words: 25 credits
10,000 words or more: 50 credits
Prestige Victory: 50 Credits
Those values are the same as the point values for those brackets, except for prestige. One credit for one library point. Prestige is actually 100 points, but we left it at 50 for the sake of not draining the treasury. This system avoided favoring either long or short books, and I think that's overall a good thing. Doesn't discourage people who want to write short things by paying worse per word for them than for long things, but doesn't discourage writing long things by underpaying for them, either. You could justifiably decide that one of those should be favored and pay accordingly, but I do think this way is best for Hallifax.
That was all well and good until I learned that Magnagora paid 7 credits for 1000-2499 word books. This offended me. Hallifax had to have the best overall payments. It's not so much about the actual credits at that point as it is about being able to say that we paid more. So I had to increase that bracket, but I wanted to maintain the proportionality. So I just asked the Board to double everything, and they agreed without complaint. There was an understanding that if it becomes unsustainable they can be dropped, particularly prestige. That brings us to our current scheme.
1,000-2,499 words: 10 credits
2,500-5,999 words: 24 credits
6,000-9,999 words: 50 credits
10,000 words or more: 100 credits
Prestige Victory: 100 [50, if reserves low] Credits
I'm not convinced that we'll stay at 100 for prestige. At the rate we've been winning them, that will not be sustainable. I presented it to the Board with the option of not doubling prestige rewards for precisely that reason. We'll see how that goes.
For scale, our average total payments for publication seem to come out to 30-40 credits every game year. Sometimes we do more and sometimes we do less, but ballparking it off of my notes, that should be about right. On top of that there's prestige every two years. Lately we've done extremely well in that, but I doubt that our recent successes are going to be representative of our long-term prospects there.
-----
Additionally, the Institute and Aeromancers have their own reward systems in place. The Institute just throws in a few credits depending on book length, although less than the city provides. Aeromancers have a weird thing with point values and scaling payouts to guild rank. I am the one who lobbied Vivet for Institute payouts, and I believe it was Ayisdra who lobbied the Aeromancers for theirs.
----------
As for Hallifax not paying combatants, that probably comes down to not having any who care about it enough to ask. Given the lack of Board resistance to me upping library credits, I doubt there would be an issue. My intuition on that is that it might be better for new people to buy them a system rather than just handing over credits directly and then have credits for the CR6 people, but I'm not an expert and can't comment with confidence.
-------
On generous writing rewards outside of org credits: they don't exist. They are a myth for most people. The only other way to get writing credits is through bardics, and those are competitive. If you've got a small population drawing on them, they're fine. But the expected value of an entry goes way down when there's competition. At the rate that most people can write an entry for them the credits per hour just aren't very good. Beyond that, there's one bardic per month. No matter how much you work at it, there's only so many credits that can come out in a given span of real life time. Plus, most bardic credits come from advancing the titles, and the good payouts from those take a lot of wins to get to.
Sure, if you can win bardics consistently, then they are great. There's no denying that. And if you're writing for the library you really should put your book in for the bardics, because it costs you nothing to do so. And if you enter enough over a sufficiently large period of real months, you can get a lot from them. But it takes a very long time to do that for most people, so if they're the only source of writing credits you can't get too far from them in a reasonable amount of time.
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
And yes, the bardics and artisanals are lovely. I earned 90% of my credits from entering! One doesn't have anything to lose anyway and a LOT to gain.
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
Sarcasm doesn't translate through text!
If anything is more disappointing, it sounds like only one person is really benefiting from it.
EDIT: I do feel like I should point out that the supplemental guild credits are my favorite part. I feel like that's a great place to put culture rewards to reduce strain on city finances, especially for guilds like the Institute that have culture-centric fluff. I know that if I was in the Symphonium I'd push for bonus stage credits, for example. You can even bias them to reinforce that fluff, like how the Institute pays more for scholarly books than literary and more for lectures than other stage things.