Phase II: Buff Overhaul

Estarra

We have started Phase II of the Overhaul! What this means is we are looking at streamling the buff system. We are basically getting rid of the dmp system and assigning two numbers to every buff: (1) the strength of the buff, and (2) the maximum level for which the buff can be applied. For instance, Damage Buff 1/3 means it raises the damage to one level to a max of level 3. More examples:

• If you have Buffs 1/1 and 2/3, the total buff would be 3
• If you have Buffs 1/1 and 3/3, the total buff would be 3
• If you have Buffs 2/2 and 3/3, the total buff would be 3
• If you have Buffs 2/5 and 3/3, the total buff would be 5

Most common buffs are 1/3. Some artifacts and strong skills can reach 1/4. Only artifacts or very powerful skills will reach 1/5. Finally, 1/6 and 1/7 are reserved for only very powerful artifacts.

Percentages for buffs:

• Level 1: 3%
• Level 2: 6%
• Level 3: 9%
• Level 4: 12% (rare)
• Level 5: 15% (only possible with high level skills or artifact)
• Level 6: 20% (only possible with artifact)
• Level 7: 25% (only possible with artifact)

We are starting coding damage buffs and resistances with this new system. It will eventually be expanded to stats and regeneration. This doesn't mean we are through with the affliction overhaul; rather, we are dividing our coding resources to do both simultaneously.

Ssaliss

Will this be mainly for the damage buff/damage resistances, or will it also include stuff like quick balance/eq (i.e. race stats and a few guild skills)?

Ssaliss

Also, I can't help but wonder how much more damage mages and wiccans will take with this, considering we get plenty of DMP through our skills... I mean, with only Nightkiss and Garb up, I get at least 22% damage reduction to all types, and some 30%. And I'm still relatively squishy.

Estarra

We haven't planned it for balance but will perhaps revisit that later. Right now, we are just doing damage buff/resistance.

Siam

Am I correct in assuming that Magic Runes level 2 & 3 equal to 1/6 and 1/7 respectively?

Estarra

Siam said:

Am I correct in assuming that Magic Runes level 2 & 3 equal to 1/6 and 1/7 respectively?

We haven't done any artifacts yet but I'll tentatively say yes.

Ayisdra

Will this include racial buffs, of which will show up on the list IG (be it bodyscan or whatever)? Having an actually number to that rather than just the 'level X' (under the old system) was always a mystery to me what it actually came out too.

Ayisdra

Also, am I understanding this right:

if I have a skill that gives some magic buff 1/3. Does this mean that skill's magic buff can go up to 3/3?

Ssaliss

AFAIK, it means it provides one level, but raises the cap to 3. So you'd need another skill with 2/3 (or 2/2), or two with 1/1 etc. to get to level 3.

EDIT: To take Siams question with the runes being level 1/6 and 1/7, it'd mean you'd have to get the other 5 or 6 points through other skills. The runes would only make you able to have 20% or 25%.

Turnus

Are warrior weapons going to be included in this overhaul at all? Thinking specifically of warrior runes.

Shuyin

Not really a damage buff, just a type change

Everiine

I hope that even 6 and 7 buffs will not be mega-powerful or significant outliers, else you'll just be recreating the problem all over again. People will scramble and scrounge to get only 6 and 7 buffs, and everyone who can't afford the artifacts that give these will not be able to compete (unless that's the business plan). The closer the levels are to each other, the better for everyone.

Tarkenton

By expanded to stats, I assume you're talking about hp/mana/ego eventually? I'm also curious where the artifact damage boosting items (specifically the magic damage ones at their 5/10/15%) will fall. The 1/7 seems like a huge gyp for folks that have the level three one, despite the further potential it unlocks. I don't have a horse in the race, being a monk, but I can envision the outrage now.

Lavinya

I get the feeling being a brewmeister dwarf will suddenly not be nearly so appealing, necessary as the changes are.

Saran

Kinda wondering would, very roughly...

1-3 mainly be trade goods / general skills/racial bonuses, 

4 mainly be archetype / guild skills / restricted trade skills (splendours come to mind)

5 would be like... any group of skills that you take would give you one of these

Also how do maluses work with this?

Would say Wildewood fire be like... -3/0 so if they were to get a 3/3 buff that would put them at 0/3 and then they could find buffs to push them up to 3/3? or would they natural level be minus three and a 3/3 buff would move them up to neutral and they would need a x/4 to move up to level 1?

EDIT: I suppose part of this question is kinda related to whether there might be more buffs available (for defence at least) generally than there can be levels. 

The example I can think of right now is for fire.

I can get a proofing, frost potion, and a tattoo to help then I can get attunement in environment and a curio to further increase this. But I feel like they would all be x/3 buffs and so for people without such a significant malus it doesn't serve much purpose stacking all of them (you might just have a proofing if you don't have a buff or malus, then have frost and attune to fill up the rest), but depending on how the system works it might serve a purpose?

Elanorwen

Estarra said:

Siam said:

Am I correct in assuming that Magic Runes level 2 & 3 equal to 1/6 and 1/7 respectively?

We haven't done any artifacts yet but I'll tentatively say yes.

I'm assuming T2/T3 magic runes would be 2/6 and 3/7 respectively. or 1/6 and 2/7... although that bit makes no sense and then what would you do to the T1 rune?

Turnus

Shuyin said:

Not really a damage buff, just a type change

Stat and wound runes. I'm wondering if warrior weapons are getting reworked or if that all is staying the same. Assuming they're not changing but it's worth asking.

Also if you have one buff that's 1/5, and then two buffs that are 2/3 and 2/3. Is the total buff going to be 4/5 or 5/5?

Saran

Elanorwen said:

Estarra said:

Siam said:

Am I correct in assuming that Magic Runes level 2 & 3 equal to 1/6 and 1/7 respectively?

We haven't done any artifacts yet but I'll tentatively say yes.

I'm assuming T2/T3 magic runes would be 2/6 and 3/7 respectively. or 1/6 and 2/7... although that bit makes no sense and then what would you do to the T1 rune?

It could exist for people that want the x/5 level that don't have a skill for it. Moondancers for divinus damage perhaps?

Elanorwen

Saran said:

Elanorwen said:

Estarra said:

Siam said:

Am I correct in assuming that Magic Runes level 2 & 3 equal to 1/6 and 1/7 respectively?

We haven't done any artifacts yet but I'll tentatively say yes.

I'm assuming T2/T3 magic runes would be 2/6 and 3/7 respectively. or 1/6 and 2/7... although that bit makes no sense and then what would you do to the T1 rune?

It could exist for people that want the x/5 level that don't have a skill for it. Moondancers for divinus damage perhaps?

Dunno, to me it makes sense that a T1 rune would be 1/6, T2 - 2/6 and T3 - 3/7, that way the higher levels of the artifact are still useful even if you have very little boosts coming from other sources, instead giving you L1, L2 and L3 buff on its own rather than all three levels giving you just an L1 buff and only raising your cap.

Akyaevin

Elanorwen said:

Saran said:

Elanorwen said:

Estarra said:

Siam said:

Am I correct in assuming that Magic Runes level 2 & 3 equal to 1/6 and 1/7 respectively?

We haven't done any artifacts yet but I'll tentatively say yes.

I'm assuming T2/T3 magic runes would be 2/6 and 3/7 respectively. or 1/6 and 2/7... although that bit makes no sense and then what would you do to the T1 rune?

It could exist for people that want the x/5 level that don't have a skill for it. Moondancers for divinus damage perhaps?

Dunno, to me it makes sense that a T1 rune would be 1/6, T2 - 2/6 and T3 - 3/7, that way the higher levels of the artifact are still useful even if you have very little boosts coming from other sources, instead giving you L1, L2 and L3 buff on its own rather than all three levels giving you just an L1 buff and only raising your cap.

Especially given that the higher levels are apparently only available with artifacts, so there aren't any "other sources" to move you from 6 to 7.

Saran

Akyaevin said:

Elanorwen said:

Saran said:

Elanorwen said:

Estarra said:

Siam said:

Am I correct in assuming that Magic Runes level 2 & 3 equal to 1/6 and 1/7 respectively?

We haven't done any artifacts yet but I'll tentatively say yes.

I'm assuming T2/T3 magic runes would be 2/6 and 3/7 respectively. or 1/6 and 2/7... although that bit makes no sense and then what would you do to the T1 rune?

It could exist for people that want the x/5 level that don't have a skill for it. Moondancers for divinus damage perhaps?

Dunno, to me it makes sense that a T1 rune would be 1/6, T2 - 2/6 and T3 - 3/7, that way the higher levels of the artifact are still useful even if you have very little boosts coming from other sources, instead giving you L1, L2 and L3 buff on its own rather than all three levels giving you just an L1 buff and only raising your cap.

Especially given that the higher levels are apparently only available with artifacts, so there aren't any "other sources" to move you from 6 to 7.

Yeah, but level five is listed as where you're meant to start buying artefacts. 

I also for some reason have an impression that the artefacts were going to be split along damage types but I'm not sure where that's come from. But all up that's why I feel there is a cross over where certain abilities mean you don't have to buy an artefact. 

Though, maybe rather than being */5 */6 */7, might artifacts be... 1/+1? So they would just add to whatever maximum you can reach?

So if Iron in Wildewood is a 3/5, the relevant tier 1 rune would put me at 4/6, tier two would be 5/7, and tier three wouldn't help?

Elanorwen

Saran said:

Yeah, but level five is listed as where you're meant to start buying artefacts.

I also for some reason have an impression that the artefacts were going to be split along damage types but I'm not sure where that's come from. But all up that's why I feel there is a cross over where certain abilities mean you don't have to buy an artefact. 

Though, maybe rather than being */5 */6 */7, might artifacts be... 1/+1? So they would just add to whatever maximum you can reach?

So if Iron in Wildewood is a 3/5, the relevant tier 1 rune would put me at 4/6, tier two would be 5/7, and tier three wouldn't help?

Why would it not? It should actually put you at 6/7. Who's going to buy the rune otherwise? That said, I don't see how that's different from 1/6, 2/6 and 3/7 or there's some miscommunication here.

1/5 means that it adds 1 to your actual buff level and turns your top buff level to 5, 2/6 means that it adds 2 to your actual buff level and raises the cap to 6, etc. Your buff level will not go to whatever/8, it can only go as far as whatever/7, but the 7 can only be acquired through the use of artifacts. A 3/7 artifact would be useful, especially if your effective level is 4. I feel that 3 levels of buff over the base should definitely be available to an artifact that costs 1600 credits while the artifact still remains useful to someone who has achieved a 5/5 buff from regular skills because only the T3 artifact would increase your level to the maximum possible. That said, perhaps one of these levels is coming from something like a karma blessing too, thus the artifact would free you up from having to upkeep said blessing, making it easier for you to maintain the maximum buff level, a win/win situation.

Ieptix

Turnus said:

Shuyin said:

Not really a damage buff, just a type change

Stat and wound runes. I'm wondering if warrior weapons are getting reworked or if that all is staying the same. Assuming they're not changing but it's worth asking.

Also if you have one buff that's 1/5, and then two buffs that are 2/3 and 2/3. Is the total buff going to be 4/5 or 5/5?

Weapons are not part of this.

Ieptix

The way the buff levels work (unless something has changed since the last time I looked at the proposal).

Buff level X/Y works as follows: The specific buff adds X levels to the specific buff type (e.g. fire defense) up to a maximum of Y (for that specific defense); Y is NOT a global maximum for that defense. 

Example:

Three fire damage buffs, levels 1/1, 2/2, 2/5. At a glance, it looks like the result should be level 5 buff. However, the max limits on each buff lead to a level 4 buff instead: 1 level from the first buff (max of 1), 1 more from the second buff (even though the second buff gives two levels, it can only bring up to a level 2 - the fact that there's a 2/5 buff is irrelevant here), 2 from the 2/5 buff. If this were applied arbitrarily, it'd be possible to have it only be level 2 (apply the 2/5 buff first, and then the other two are redundant). However, it should be applied in the most beneficial order.

That said, I haven't really been involved in this part of the Overhaul, so this could have changed, but it's my understanding of how it should work.

Saran

Elanorwen said:

Saran said:

Yeah, but level five is listed as where you're meant to start buying artefacts.

I also for some reason have an impression that the artefacts were going to be split along damage types but I'm not sure where that's come from. But all up that's why I feel there is a cross over where certain abilities mean you don't have to buy an artefact. 

Though, maybe rather than being */5 */6 */7, might artifacts be... 1/+1? So they would just add to whatever maximum you can reach?

So if Iron in Wildewood is a 3/5, the relevant tier 1 rune would put me at 4/6, tier two would be 5/7, and tier three wouldn't help?

Why would it not? It should actually put you at 6/7. Who's going to buy the rune otherwise? That said, I don't see how that's different from 1/6, 2/6 and 3/7 or there's some miscommunication here.

1/5 means that it adds 1 to your actual buff level and turns your top buff level to 5, 2/6 means that it adds 2 to your actual buff level and raises the cap to 6, etc. Your buff level will not go to whatever/8, it can only go as far as whatever/7, but the 7 can only be acquired through the use of artifacts. A 3/7 artifact would be useful, especially if your effective level is 4. I feel that 3 levels of buff over the base should definitely be available to an artifact that costs 1600 credits while the artifact still remains useful to someone who has achieved a 5/5 buff from regular skills because only the T3 artifact would increase your level to the maximum possible. That said, perhaps one of these levels is coming from something like a karma blessing too, thus the artifact would free you up from having to upkeep said blessing, making it easier for you to maintain the maximum buff level, a win/win situation.

That's why I'm asking these questions?

I am quite clear on the current explanation of how the system works, the issue appears to be that level five is an intended crossover point where you can access it with certain skills while also it being the first level that you may need to buy an artefact to access it.

The crossover level, however, depending on the implementation can make this crossover level irrelevant ONLY in the case that you have an ability that gets you to tier five.

So either, 

• no one gets these skills
  
• people accept that they are going to need to go straight to tier two
• or the artifact based buffs function in an additive manner rather than a cap like the skill based buffs. (The idea of tier one adds 1 level and 1 max level, tier two adds 2 and 2, and three adds 3 and 3, to a maximum of seven)

In the example I gave 5/7 would be with a tier two rune, tier three would be 6/7 because of the hard cap of 7 levels. I wouldn't necessarily have to buy tier three, but depending on how my other defences work out, maybe that extra level means that I can reallocate tattoos or something (giving me an extra buff level to play with)

Though the issue is that for that solution to work, it would also mean that those who can only get max level three could be capped out at 6. Whether or not this is an issue is up in the air. The only way it would come up is if you could get the levels but were held back by the cap.

Saran

Ieptix said:

The way the buff levels work (unless something has changed since the last time I looked at the proposal).

Buff level X/Y works as follows: The specific buff adds X levels to the specific buff type (e.g. fire defense) up to a maximum of Y (for that specific defense); Y is NOT a global maximum for that defense. 

Example:

Three fire damage buffs, levels 1/1, 2/2, 2/5. At a glance, it looks like the result should be level 5 buff. However, the max limits on each buff lead to a level 4 buff instead: 1 level from the first buff (max of 1), 1 more from the second buff (even though the second buff gives two levels, it can only bring up to a level 2 - the fact that there's a 2/5 buff is irrelevant here), 2 from the 2/5 buff. If this were applied arbitrarily, it'd be possible to have it only be level 2 (apply the 2/5 buff first, and then the other two are redundant). However, it should be applied in the most beneficial order.

That said, I haven't really been involved in this part of the Overhaul, so this could have changed, but it's my understanding of how it should work.

Oh, didn't even realise that.

I suppose to ask now, but would bodyscan be updated to show something like...

Buff1 (1/1)

Buff2  (2/2)

Buff3 (2/5)

Total (4/5)

So that we could see the application order and adjust?

Lerad

That is very confusing. I understand what's going on, but the casual players will find it hard to wrap their heads around it. First of all, why make a system where the order the buffs are applied matters? Nothing good comes out of that but to make things less clear and increases the learning curve for people trying to get into it. And the worst of all, it makes the artifacts that people can buy more prone to be misunderstood. and miscalculated. The biggest headache of all, is if someone thinks that buying an artifact will improve their performance in a certain way, but because they misunderstood, and bought an artifact to have lesser or a different effect on their performance, it makes it a horrible experience from a customer's point of view. Regardless of whether refunds will be considered, it just leaves a sour taste behind.

Secondly, from a balance point of view, why is there a need to arbitrarily limit the effectiveness low level buffs instead of only limiting the maximum? Let me explain.

The problem with the current buffs system is that there is no upper limit, or if there is, we don't know. People can stack buffs until they hit 10k, 12k, 15k health, just as an example. So the new system should impose reasonable maximum limits, at stages to make artifacts have a role and a place, as well, sure. If you want to leave levels 6 and 7 for artifacts only, that's more than reasonable.

But then why is there a need to make small level buffs (like the 1/1 buff) potentially useless in certain conditions? Using the example above, a 1/1 and a 2/2 and a 2/5 buff together has the same effect as only having a 2/2 and a 2/5 buff together. The skill that gave the 1/1 buff might as well be deleted. It can don't exist, and nothing will change. It won't matter what order it is applied in, whether first or not, it will simply be negated out by the higher level buff as though it didn't exist. You will be able to literally type in the command, take mana or ego or whatever, and balance or equilibrium or whatever, see the line in your defense list... and have it do absolutely nothing. WHY? Why is there a need to create a system where such a situation can happen? Where abilities can be thrown away? It's one thing to cap effects so that outliers don't become... outliers. But it's another to impose arbitrary limits here and there that can render specific abilities useless.

Why not make it so that having a 1/1 buff and a 2/2 buff gives you 3 levels of buffs, but the effect is capped at 2, because there is no buff that goes higher than */2, that means that even though the 1/1 is useless now, once you unlock a higher max level buff, it once again becomes useful, contributing again to reach whatever the new max is at. Instead of being... straight out useless once you get a 2/2, forever, period. 

For another example, this means that once you get a 3/3 buff from any source, ANY other ability that gives less than 3/3 can be ignored. 1/3, 2/3, 1/1, 1/2, 2/2, all of these become useless, because even if you get a 1/7 buff next (artifact), your total will still be 4/7, even if you had all of those buffs I listed, whether you had to grind or bash for them or not.

Yes, this is an example, a theoretical example. There might not be any such situation or any skill with a 3/3 effect that will render large swathes of abilities useless. But why make the system so that such situations are possible in the first place? 

I don't think it'll be very fun to tell newbies, or for them to be told, "oh, that cool stoneskin skill you have? Yeah, don't bother using it. You'll learn something better that entirely negates its existence around 100 lessons later. It's just fluff."

Steingrim

This is complex enough that I think we need examples. How about for regen listing harmony kephera demigod vs harmony Lobo non-demigod with level 2 regen runes.

Maybe an example on damage resist from say ecologist showing at what point they'd be wasting fire DMP. Assuming they have Fox deepbonded for 10DMP cold/fire resist, charm for +40 more fire DMP, and frost.

Saran

I think maybe it could work if those disposable buffs are things like tattoos and trade items.

The issue I'm imagining now is what such things would be assigned to? Like will proofs/tattoos be assigned as 1/2, then splendours/tattoo armour would double that maybe? 

I wouldn't mind having things at a level where you would be able to rearrange some things to get the full benefit. Like wider variety of tattoos and the like, unfortunately that kind of resource management is only really available through tattoos (proofs maybe). 

Talan

How will debuffs/maluses factor in? Will you be able to overbuff to negate these effects?

For example:

I have sipped frost potion. (1/1)
My robes are proofed against fire. (1/3)
I have a 100 weight fire absorption tattoo. (2/3)
I have eaten a correct_color heart candy. (3/3)

My buff is level 3. But let's say I get hit with a negative volcano sphere (decreases resistance to fire damage). Does my resistance drop to level 2, or does it stay level 3?

Let's say I also have any of the other skill-based defenses against fire damage up. Would I then have 4/3? My max buff level is still 3, but could this extra point come into play to negate any debuffing affect?

Will racial bonuses/maluses still be separate from all this?

Qistrel

I'm already confused. I thought I understood it, but now Lerad's post seems to say something different.

And I'm not exactly a new player, or unintelligent.