Thornlash still does damage and massive bleeding if it doesn't kill, Swoop still drains mana and possibly causes bleeding.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
But absolutely nothing is like Celestialism shackles. That is an aberration that should've never occurred, destroyed any credible faith left in the envoy system and completely alienated other envoys. They also went and ignored the other half of the report for the Nihilists, and completely ignored my envoy suggestions.
And there has never been anything similar to what happened with Shackles, nor has it been fixed (nor have the Nihilists pacts been fixed since)
Unfortunately that's just the tip of the iceberg of the growing problems we've had with the overhaul.
I really feel bad for the Nihilists and feel like they need a very aggressive and proactive envoy at this point. The class needs a strong core rewrite.
Unfortunately that's just the tip of the iceberg of the growing problems we've had with the overhaul.
I really feel bad for the Nihilists and feel like they need a very aggressive and proactive envoy at this point. The class needs a strong core rewrite.
Gore isn't primarily an instakill ability. I wouldn't call thornrending at sub-instakill levels a 'failed attempt to instakil' per se.
EDIT: There isn't any other vitals-threshold based instakill with a consolation prize effect, afaik. The majority of skills that have requirements just do nothing (with or without taking resources) if those requirements are not met. The notable other exception is truename.
IIRC, Wrack DOES take power if the target is entangled but has too high a mana (failed kill check), but not when they're not entangled (failed extra requirement). Eternalsleep works in the same way - it just fails with no cost if the target is awake, but does take power if they are asleep regardless of if it kills or not.
Yes, yes it is. The amount of times Avurekhos has spammed my screen by assessing someone (in the middle of combat spam, at that) to get the instakill right is pretty hard evidence.
Yes, yes it is. The amount of times Avurekhos has spammed my screen by assessing someone (in the middle of combat spam, at that) to get the instakill right is pretty hard evidence.
The history of envoy reports revolving around fiddling with the damage/sourcing of the damage and the impale effect, as well as the poison delivery effect say otherwise. Just because those effects are chancy and overpriced doesn't change that it's fundamentally different than an instakill skill like toadcurse or wrack. The impale (chance), damage, and poison effects aren't consolation prize effects for when the instakill fails - they are separate intentional effects for use outside of the instakill effect.
Jesus Christ this thread. I don't understand the argument now. First xenthos Silvanus and etc prove that drunken fool is an entirely different envoy situation than shackles, then they prove that other instakills have secondary effects on failure, now you guys are contesting the definition of "secondary effect"? Gore, wrack, etc don't count now? Lol wtf. Gore counts. If it does not kill you, it does something else. There's no other way to spin it.
No, you are wrong. You're welcome to disagree, or to argue that drunkenfool was intended to be used to intentionally 'fail' for the secondary effect and tbh, I'm not going to weigh in on either of those things either way.
Someone said "Gore is an instakill with a secondary effect". In this day and age the instakill is the secondary effect, the primary effect is just gimpy and overcostly. Similarly, the rend damage and bleeding on lashes 1-4 isn't really a 'you failed, here is a consolation prize' type effect, with possibly lash 4 being the exception. It's not accurate to characterize it as 'an instakill with a secondary effect if you fail'.
If you don't appreciate Gore for its instakilling capabilities then I'm sure all the chemwoods out there who don't even have an insta in their primaries would gladly take it!
Got it, this is Xenthos pedantry. Should have said so. Gore counts. It started off as an instakill, got secondary effects in addition to the instakill, same syntax, same instakill exists.
You're welcome to it. You can't regain enough power fast enough to cast it after an 10p bomb, and victims don't get into low enough hp to die to it at that point regardless so using your 1/hr refresh to gore isn't worth it.
@Enyalida is playing semantics now for whatever reason. The question being asked is 1) Does the skill have a chance to kill you? and 2) If it doesn't kill you, does it do something else? Yes or no questions. The order of intention or size of effect have literally zero relevance in this argument considering the baseline laid down by Maligorn is 'it kills you or does nothing.'
@Maligorn - I don't know what point you were trying to make, but the point I was trying to make was this argument you are trying to have has been done in report 1340 (by yourself no less) and if you want to see the refutals of your said arguments, refer to the report. I'm not interested in hashing it out again with you. The admin approved and implemented the report meaning they read and agreed with the arguments I presented (including the ones refuting your hate of drunkenfool having a secondary effect). I said my piece about Miasma and haven't complained about it since then, so fine, I will continue to not complain about Miasma. Chalk up whatever victory you want to claim by getting me to continue doing what's been happening for some time now.
Got it, this is Xenthos pedantry. Should have said so. Gore counts. It started off as an instakill, got secondary effects in addition to the instakill, same syntax, same instakill exists.
Goes beyond Xenthos pedantry here; it is exactly the same situation as Drunkenfool (it has uses both as a kill and not-as-a-kill and reasons to use it both ways).
It's a fair distinction to make, whatever you feel like calling it. In the same way that there is a fair distinction between "The admins considered my position and made the changes I suggested" and that's different than what happened with shackles, whatever that is called.
But it's literally an insta kill at 1/4th max health that impales on failure. Is this even pedantry? It's just...I don't know...denial or something. Preserve does chills and like 4K damage when it fails. Maligorn doesn't even know what he's talking about even if we were to scrub our brains with Enyalida logic
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
Preserve and thornrend cost power upon failure to reach the instakill. Wrack doesn't do anything extra when it fails, even if it does cost no power to fail. Gore costs 2p.
Swoop is the only instakill that does something extra and doesn't punish the user for using it at an incorrect threshold -- this is balanced to me, because it's a really low threshold. Drunkenfool, however, is a 50% threshold, and when it fails, you get blackout and an ego drain.
Look. You can keep your crutch mechanic, Sidd, even if you won't admit it is what it is. I know ego drain is hard. But when you start to get uppity and arrogant on the forums like you were a page or two ago, understand that I'm going to call out the guy who envoyed a crutch mechanic into his instakill.
You know, it's really hard to follow your argument when you keep adding caveats along the way. I think you're a supremo combatant with a fantastic understanding of balance, so I don't want to sound accusatory when I tell you it comes across as changing your argument to validate your point. P.S. Does it count as a crutch if he rarely scores kills with it?
Preserve and thornrend cost power upon failure to reach the instakill. Wrack doesn't do anything extra when it fails, even if it does cost no power to fail. Gore costs 2p.
Swoop is the only instakill that does something extra and doesn't punish the user for using it at an incorrect threshold -- this is balanced to me, because it's a really low threshold. Drunkenfool, however, is a 50% threshold, and when it fails, you get blackout and an ego drain.
Look. You can keep your crutch mechanic, Sidd, even if you won't admit it is what it is. I know ego drain is hard. But when you start to get uppity and arrogant on the forums like you were a page or two ago, understand that I'm going to call out the guy who envoyed a crutch mechanic into his instakill.
Gore costs two power, delivers a preapplied poison of your choice, does decent (not great) damage, and impales. All of this assists with setting up the kill.
Swoop is...I forget how much power, requires pre-set up (perched in trees above victim, requires crow cloak), and if it fails, just does mana damage and drags the enemy into the trees, TAKING THEM OUT OF SWOOP RANGE. Don't try and talk up Swoop like it'd balanced and Gore isn't that powerful.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Actually, Shaddus, Swoop needs Crowform, costs zero power, and the person can easily be shoved out of the trees if they fail the instakill. Can you please at least check Xiel's site before shitting all over the forums?
Wrack (and Eternal sleep turns out) don't cost power if the target doesn't meet certain criteria - this is fair and balanced.
Thornrend just causes bleeding and costs power upon failure - This is fair and balanced
Gore has a chance to impale + damage if it doesn't kill you, costs 2p - this is fair and balanced
Swoop drains mana still even upon failure - this is fair and balanced
Preserve - changes power costs (cheaper upon certain conditions, 1-2p) and contributes more to the kill condition (frozen levels, health damage, up to 4-5k damage for 4p) upon each use. Apparently this is fair and balanced
Drunkenfool - costs power upon failure (5p same as success, unlike preserve) and contributes to kill condition(blackout, egodrain) upon each use. Apparently this is a crutch mechanic.
Something here doesn't seem like the other.
You're simply unable to comprehend what's being said that doesn't fit your narrative.
Stay classy @Maligorn - I'm 'uppity and arrogant' because of attitudes and ignorance like this.
Question - what does toad curse do to the victim upon failure? It still costs the power but I never thought about whether it actually still does something.
Comments
IIRC, Wrack DOES take power if the target is entangled but has too high a mana (failed kill check), but not when they're not entangled (failed extra requirement). Eternalsleep works in the same way - it just fails with no cost if the target is awake, but does take power if they are asleep regardless of if it kills or not.
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
Someone said "Gore is an instakill with a secondary effect". In this day and age the instakill is the secondary effect, the primary effect is just gimpy and overcostly. Similarly, the rend damage and bleeding on lashes 1-4 isn't really a 'you failed, here is a consolation prize' type effect, with possibly lash 4 being the exception. It's not accurate to characterize it as 'an instakill with a secondary effect if you fail'.
Goes beyond Xenthos pedantry here; it is exactly the same situation as Drunkenfool (it has uses both as a kill and not-as-a-kill and reasons to use it both ways).
Preserve and thornrend cost power upon failure to reach the instakill. Wrack doesn't do anything extra when it fails, even if it does cost no power to fail. Gore costs 2p.
Swoop is the only instakill that does something extra and doesn't punish the user for using it at an incorrect threshold -- this is balanced to me, because it's a really low threshold. Drunkenfool, however, is a 50% threshold, and when it fails, you get blackout and an ego drain.
Look. You can keep your crutch mechanic, Sidd, even if you won't admit it is what it is. I know ego drain is hard. But when you start to get uppity and arrogant on the forums like you were a page or two ago, understand that I'm going to call out the guy who envoyed a crutch mechanic into his instakill.
If that wasn't clear, then let it be clarified.
Gore costs two power, delivers a preapplied poison of your choice, does decent (not great) damage, and impales. All of this assists with setting up the kill.
Swoop is...I forget how much power, requires pre-set up (perched in trees above victim, requires crow cloak), and if it fails, just does mana damage and drags the enemy into the trees, TAKING THEM OUT OF SWOOP RANGE. Don't try and talk up Swoop like it'd balanced and Gore isn't that powerful.