Worth noting: Hallifax doesn't. Explicitly. Encouraged not to, in fact, otherwise when we complete our epic cycle the player would have some hard introspection to do.
Not that Hallifax is the example to strive for, just saying that the analogy might be lost.
This is slightly misleading. We do defend the Air Lords, but we aren't too upset if they're killed and we actively disdain them when they're alive. If that sounds contradictory, a metaphor: They're like that uncomfortable and ugly sweater your Aunt gave you at Christmas that you can't throw away, but if someone comes into your house and shreds it, that's still insulting.
That analogy seems a bit off, though. It is more like having some barrels of gasoline. Handy to have, sure. You don't really want someone to steal them from you. But you don't want to drink it, bathe in it, smell it, or even really look at it. But if you need that fuel, it is right there, waiting to be used.
That analogy seems a bit off, though. It is more like having some barrels of gasoline. Handy to have, sure. You don't really want someone to steal them from you. But you don't want to drink it, bathe in it, smell it, or even really look at it. But if you need that fuel, it is right there, waiting to be used.
People are campaigning to have this mechanic removed -- will Serenwilde descend into taint and chaos if there aren't totems in every room? Of course it won't. Whether the mechanic is changed by the admin or ignored by players, Serenwilde will move in a different direction. (So will Glomdoring.)
It's just a matter of choosing to move in that direction before a change officially implemented, or regardless of if a change is ever implemented. You guys act like everything you do is subject to admistrative mandate, but Estarra is not hovering over you shoulder saying, 'You better build those totems me-damnit.'
There have been times where either commune has said something to the effect of, "Don't even bother raising ladies/daughters right now - their presence just invites raids." This isn't so different.
Honestly, I do feel like the main reason that communes keep totems is for power, not RP. Even if you "don't [really] give a damn," about power, it's available to you, so you pursue it. If you say it's not power, it's your RP, I'm inclined to point out that you allow your RP to be more flexible in other areas, because this feels like an excuse to me. I have some experience playing in Glomdoring, and I can tell you that I cared about totems bigtime, because they were ours, and what's ours needs to be there, because it can, thus it should, thus it MUST. I feel like I do understand the mindset. I also understand that 2-3k power per day is a freaking bangarang perk. Did you know some orgs without villages often have negative net power gain in a day? I didn't, until I played in a city.
It is also easy for me, as a player who is somewhat more distanced from the hardcore org RP I previously enjoyed to say, "This level of consternation is worth nobody's time."
From Lerad: I mentioned absolutely none of that in my "angry argument", because I don't expect you to know anything about that. I didn't mention that to you back then, not even when you sent me a tell saying something along the lines of "Whoa, chill out man", nor was I interested in quibbling about the specifics of the frustration that you directly caused me with your actions in my earlier post. ----- Edit: Warning this is a derail from your previously scheduled Elder rants.
You've actually jogged my memory now @Lerad . I remember you sending me a curse laden tell, which I guess I could have simply issued, because we were killing the guards at one of Glomdoring's villages. I responded basically, "chill out." From your perspective, I am the one that causing grief here.
My perspective is that you're making this grief for yourself, and also being sort of rude by yelling at me about it. In a game like Lusternia things are going to happen to you and your org that you didn't choose for yourself, your character might be really upset about it, but you shouldn't be as the player. I think this is part of why people have taken to labeling Lusternia players as 'soft'. There's this sort of atmosphere where people find it unacceptable if others are doing something in the game that they don't like. Most people get way too entwined in this game and let IC happenings get them really riled up OOCly.
If we look at it more specifically, what does the guards getting killed cost you? It costs your org less power than your totems are passively generating, and apparently nobody cares about that anyway. You can just resummon a slightly larger stack that we couldn't kill. It would take you maybe 2 minutes of your time. (Or it wouldn't be possible if you just made the guard stack big enough to begin with) This applies for basically every conflict mechanic in Lusternia because they've all be super neutered.
There is of course a line that shouldn't be crossed. If someone is making it so that you can't play the game then they are hurting the game. Vining a city/setting a forest on fire so that noobs die and can't play the game is inappropriate. Similarly intentionally trying to waste peoples' time so that they can't play the game (kick raiding, elder chopping) is inappropriate. For @Xenthos' sake I'd throw in overly long raids, or forcing people to defend when they don't want to into this category as well. (I'll repeat to everyone that hates me for raiding, just send me a tell that you don't want to defend/are busy/not interested, and I'll bugger off. It's not that hard to understand, I'm just looking for fights)
It is unhealthy how worked up people get about guards getting killed, or their elemental lords/mobs getting slain. It has basically no mechanical impact on you. Your character has a good reason to be ticked off, but why you as a player, in the real world are upset about that, I'll never really understand.
P.S. I didn't want to divert from my point about people getting enraged about Lusternia, but part of the problem with Elders is that people can argue that they're not chopping to waste time, but because it's a huge power generator for their enemy org. Power being basically the only measurable way to try to hurt your arch-enemy forest.
P.P.S. I don't mean this to be an attack on you @Lerad , we all get hot sometimes, myself included, but I hope we can recognize when it's justified, or not. That's why I wouldn't ever issue you for it.
I think as you work through your various perspectives, you've already shown why choosing to move in the manner you've described really isn't a choice at all. You've disputed that the argument that totems are upkept is an "excuse", but in the very same sentence you describe that you "cared about totems bigtime, because they were ours, and what's ours needs to be there, because it can, thus it should, thus it MUST."
This mindset you say that you feel you understand, that's the RP. That's the figurative Estarra breathing down your neck. No, she's not actually doing it, and she probably doesn't want to force players to do it, but that's the world, the RP, she created, one that engages you as a player at a level that lets you ignore the fact that this isn't real, and feel viscerally for the need, the RP, to replant. This isn't rocket science, because you understand it at a level that anyone who plays in a commune currently understands it, and you're not even playing in a commune.
2k-3k power is a big perk - but it doesn't matter. I say this repeatedly not because it's not an advantage. It doesn't matter because of that RP you just described. If there was no power, as part of game balance, we'd certainly expect some of the disadvantages communes face to be loosened - but even if we set it up exactly the same as cities mechanically, that RP you described isn't going to change. People aren't going to suddenly say, "Oh, there's no power, it's fine to not replant." They are still going to replant and defend them. That's the meaning of "the power doesn't matter".
Why is the RP more flexible in some areas than others? Well, because the lore is different in those areas. It's like trying to apply the "Don't even bother raising ladies/daughters right now - their presence just invites raids." argument to Avatars. It doesn't matter if the cities would just come back and kill them again after they've been put back up, YOU PUT THEM UP - because they're the Avatars. They're not daughters and ladies. This also happened before - restoring the smobs and getting them killed again, and back-and-forth, back when it was relatively more possible for both sides to keep killing smobs. People didn't stop putting them up even though they knew they would get hit again, because of that same RP.
All that above aside, my point about the mechanic itself being what needs to be changed still stands. This hardcore org RP you previously enjoyed is on its way out, Talan, because people don't care anymore. This is the Maeve all over again. It's fast approaching the point when people WILL start to say fuck the RP, and burning out of the capacity to care anymore. Not because they are now a player in a City who doesn't have to deal with it, but because the frustration has been unacceptable for too long.
This level of consternation is, right now, worth all of my time and effort. It might not be worth yours, but that won't be because the mechanics and frustration are being exaggerated. If you don't care, or don't want to care, that's fine. But settling for an RP "choice" that addresses none of the frustration, and none of the mechanics is not reasonable in any sense of the word.
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Every time I check out Tweets lately I think of this and it makes reading the thread a little bit funnier. That's it, that's all I want to contribute.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
I mentioned absolutely none of that in my "angry argument", because I don't expect you to know anything about that. I didn't mention that to you back then, not even when you sent me a tell saying something along the lines of "Whoa, chill out man", nor was I interested in quibbling about the specifics of the frustration that you directly caused me with your actions in my earlier post. ----- Edit: Warning this is a derail from your previously scheduled Elder rants. You've actually jogged my memory now @Lerad . I remember you sending me a curse laden tell, which I guess I could have simply issued, because we were killing the guards at one of Glomdoring's villages. I responded basically, "chill out." From your perspective, I am the one that causing grief here. My perspective is that you're making this grief for yourself, and also being sort of rude by yelling at me about it. In a game like Lusternia things are going to happen to you and your org that you didn't choose for yourself, your character might be really upset about it, but you shouldn't be as the player. I think this is part of why people have taken to labeling Lusternia players as 'soft'. There's this sort of atmosphere where people find it unacceptable if others are doing something in the game that they don't like. Most people get way too entwined in this game and let IC happenings get them really riled up OOCly. If we look at it more specifically, what does the guards getting killed cost you? It costs your org less power than your totems are passively generating, and apparently nobody cares about that anyway. You can just resummon a slightly larger stack that we couldn't kill. It would take you maybe 2 minutes of your time. (Or it wouldn't be possible if you just made the guard stack big enough to begin with) This applies for basically every conflict mechanic in Lusternia because they've all be super neutered. There is of course a line that shouldn't be crossed. If someone is making it so that you can't play the game then they are hurting the game. Vining a city/setting a forest on fire so that noobs die and can't play the game is inappropriate. Similarly intentionally trying to waste peoples' time so that they can't play the game (kick raiding, elder chopping) is inappropriate. For @Xenthos' sake I'd throw in overly long raids, or forcing people to defend when they don't want to into this category as well. (I'll repeat to everyone that hates me for raiding, just send me a tell that you don't want to defend/are busy/not interested, and I'll bugger off. It's not that hard to understand, I'm just looking for fights) It is unhealthy how worked up people get about guards getting killed, or their elemental lords/mobs getting slain. It has basically no mechanical impact on you. Your character has a good reason to be ticked off, but why you as a player, in the real world are upset about that, I'll never really understand. P.S. I didn't want to divert from my point about people getting enraged about Lusternia, but part of the problem with Elders is that people can argue that they're not chopping to waste time, but because it's a huge power generator for their enemy org. Power being basically the only measurable way to try to hurt your arch-enemy forest. P.P.S. I don't mean this to be an attack on you @Lerad , we all get hot sometimes, myself included, but I hope we can recognize when it's justified, or not. That's why I wouldn't ever issue you for it.
Yes, like I said, I wasn't interested in accusing you of the specifics of the frustration I felt that day. My post was reacting to your argument about flicking away RP, nothing else. I couldn't care less, in fact, whether you feel like you're wronged about it, or if you feel I am being rude about it, because I've taken my own steps to ensure there is no repeat of what I did that day. But if you're telling people which part of your actions they can and cannot feel angry about, or which part of your behavior they should or should not feel outraged about, then I think I'm not the one being soft. If you want to engage in that kind of conflict, then you'd better grow Shuyin's thickness of skin - because those responses are more than justified (my subjective opinion, of course), and not everyone will stop logging in to remove themselves from the mechanics that cause their reactions.
All of the above is irrelevant to elder chopping mechanics, however. The mechanics themselves are unreasonable, and they should not be defended by the existence of passive power generation, or even by Estarra's insistence that communes and cities be different, or to salve the need of people who want to use (or abuse) it to fulfill their need for adrenaline. In fact, even the hardcore RP of upkeeping totems is no longer enough for communes to force themselves to continue suffering this frustration. Edited to add: I have told Estarra I intend to continue working within the limits she has imposed, of course, but that doesn't mean I should stop myself from expressing my feelings on this matter. Whether I feel angry and frustrated really isn't your place to dictate.
I don't think there's much room to argue that the RP of "attacking the power generators of the enemy" from people who don't have to deal with the mechanic is enough justification to tell people they shouldn't feel frustrated and angry about the mechanic.
When we say we don't care about the power, it's because frankly it doesn't motivate our desire to protect and maintain the elders and we'd gladly see it gone in exchange for better protection methods.
If it means we'd run at a loss, so be it. More urge to do other activities to generate power and work together as a team. That's a positive result in my opinion.
I would gladly see the power gain gone tomorrow if it meant that Ravenwoods were far harder to simply wander in and mass chop till you were caught.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
@Lerad I honestly don't believe the totem RP would hold up in the face of the grief if it weren't for the mechanical perk. There are many examples of things you could do to support core-RP, but you don't do, because there's nothing in it for you. There is something in it for you with totems though, so you commit to this mechanic in a way you choose not to commit to others. Claiming that it's all RP, and think of the children, and the power doesn't matter is dishonest. (That's to everybody.)
That said, I totally support finding new solutions to the two separate issues that surround totems - parity with statue defense, and parity with power generation. Maybe a new thread.
We can't know this until/unless power generation is divorced from totems. When you're in a situation where you're getting griefed for just-RP, and still you react with the same urgency and fervor, I will admit to having been wrong all along about your base motivations. Until that time, I am going to credit you with more pragmatism than that.
I think disputing the motivation behind the push for this change (the power doesn't matter argument, and the challenge that it's dishonest to claim thus) is important, because I sincerely believe otherwise. The anger that is met with a cut elder is rarely, if ever, about the power lost, and almost always about the effort of replanting. And this is not a tame, "oh, dear" reaction. The power comes in as a consolation more often than not - the "we're dealing with this, but look, at least we get power." This latest bubbling of discontent, however, is nothing new, and is what I mean when I say that the frustration is overcoming even that consolation. Perhaps, once, it was sufficient to lean on it to justify the chore to oneself. But the same thing happening again and again is a clear indicator that it's not enough - and never was, and never should be - as a justification to keep this mechanic. That last part might just be my personal opinion, but I don't think I'm dreaming up the people chipping in to agree that the power can (and should) go, along with the mechanics that cause the frustration.
I'm not averse to starting a new thread, but I'll gladly continue this conversation here, as well. I've mentioned this before, but I think the forums should be a place where a conversation and discussion can start anywhere, even as a derail, and that it shouldn't be a reason to shy from stating an opinion or challenging another person's. It also helps to have a controversial discussion take place in the most checked thread in the forums - if only to elicit a response from people to talk about it. I also think there is merit to continue a discussion from where it started, if only to trace the development of the conversation.
That said, I am almost done with my report draft, and will likely create a new thread about it tomorrow.
The frustration and anger at elders being chopped isn't about the powet loss or the effort to just get nuts for the saplings.
It's mainly that, "how dare you mess with my stuff" feeling. Protecting the saplings can be frustrating since they're so vulnerable, but we have ironbark to bandaid that.
This conversation, which isn't even a new one, has been beaten to death now. Let's get back to tweets.
We can't know this until/unless power generation is divorced from totems. When you're in a situation where you're getting griefed for just-RP, and still you react with the same urgency and fervor, I will admit to having been wrong all along about your base motivations. Until that time, I am going to credit you with more pragmatism than that.
Why would we ever just remove the power generation and leave the griefy mechanic the same?
I can't believe this is a serious issue when ironbark exists as it does now, especially with bloated conquest pools and just nexus power pools as they stand now. Does ironbark not protect non-elder ravenwoods/moonharts? Does it prevent mulching at the appropriate times?
It does. This is a really dumb bandaid. Speaking of curious motivation: what is the motivation to keep the totem mechanic as is? To make the power generation they create fair by allowing grief? Well, you can't chop them at all anymore AND we get the power generation for free. Why not just actually remove the power generation and chopping for real and work in active power generation while removing the need to spam the logs and fret about awful ironbark
EDIT: In other words, we're getting safe totems and free power and still want the totem mechanics to change even though they only benefit us mechanically.
Because I bet Glom's conquest pool isn't do as well as ours, and our string of conquest won't last forever. Even if it did, it's not cool that the winning faction gets to not worry about being griefed - they're already winning. Instead, the mechanic is helping no one, and one of the more frustrating parts is people still defending it.
To cities it's unfair because (one) forest gets free power generation for minimal hassle. For a forest without a massive conquest pool it's unfair because they get punished for not winning by either negating their passive power generation (worse for Glom with its fewer totems) or getting griefed. No one wins.
Thank you for clarifying. I was left with the impression that if you used ironbark, trees would not generate power (which seemed reasonable) -- not that the gains were negated by the cost.
Kind of unsure where you get the impression nobody is winning here, though.
@Lerad I honestly don't believe the totem RP would hold up in the face of the grief if it weren't for the mechanical perk. There are many examples of things you could do to support core-RP, but you don't do, because there's nothing in it for you. There is something in it for you with totems though, so you commit to this mechanic in a way you choose not to commit to others. Claiming that it's all RP, and think of the children, and the power doesn't matter is dishonest. (That's to everybody.)
That said, I totally support finding new solutions to the two separate issues that surround totems - parity with statue defense, and parity with power generation. Maybe a new thread.
Well to be fair we commit to raising daughers as much as we commit to raising totems and theres no mechanical benefit to raising daughters really.
It does. This is a really dumb bandaid. Speaking of curious motivation: what is the motivation to keep the totem mechanic as is? To make the power generation they create fair by allowing grief? Well, you can't chop them at all anymore AND we get the power generation for free. Why not just actually remove the power generation and chopping for real and work in active power generation while removing the need to spam the logs and fret about awful ironbark
EDIT: In other words, we're getting safe totems and free power and still want the totem mechanics to change even though they only benefit us mechanically.
As a power point, just looking at totems not conquest power or such we worked it out the other day Serenwilde itself can keep ironbark on 24 7 and the totems will generate power for the commune still. Glomdoring cant do this if glomdoring keeps ironbark on 24 7 then totems become a net loss of energy.
So the ironbark arguement is a fair point to bring up as serens totems do generate enough to have fully protected trees but Glomdorings dosn't.
So Glomdoring is given the choice between leaving Ironbark down and opening itself up to tree chopping or havin't a negative power generation.
So Glomdoring is fairly worse off in the totem ironbark department vs serenwilde as well.
Thank you for clarifying. I was left with the impression that if you used ironbark, trees would not generate power (which seemed reasonable) -- not that the gains were negated by the cost.
Kind of unsure where you get the impression nobody is winning here, though.
Totems still generate power but keeping up ironbark 24 7 would cost glom a few hundred power a day but would leave serenwilde still gaining a few hundred power a day just from totems.
In order to change RP to just not care ever about elders, you'd have to divorce the totems specializations from...well...totems. Else, as Xenthos has laid out, new players have to grow their own elders which is a enormously obnoxious gateway for anyone wanting to be a druid/totems warrior. I'm not sure passing on the frustration from old players to new players is a great resolution.
You cannot resolve this issue with just an RP change of heart. One way or the other, you have to change mechanics to resolve this frustration. It's not something you can just wave your hand and fix, people should stop suggesting that it is.
Idk. You can roughly time your ironbark usage to the next Full or New moon as needed, and leave in gaps when you know there's a population spike. It would require some thought and effort into chelp or ghelp though.
edit: disclaimer: I'm just tossing out suggestions because they're (probably) more palatable for a change than just "Ms. Estarrachev, tear down this totem powergen!". I don't disagree that elder maintenance can be horrible (especially in Serenwilde).
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And in some cases some have a mechanical reason to do so as well.
It's just a matter of choosing to move in that direction before a change officially implemented, or regardless of if a change is ever implemented. You guys act like everything you do is subject to admistrative mandate, but Estarra is not hovering over you shoulder saying, 'You better build those totems me-damnit.'
There have been times where either commune has said something to the effect of, "Don't even bother raising ladies/daughters right now - their presence just invites raids." This isn't so different.
Honestly, I do feel like the main reason that communes keep totems is for power, not RP. Even if you "don't [really] give a damn," about power, it's available to you, so you pursue it. If you say it's not power, it's your RP, I'm inclined to point out that you allow your RP to be more flexible in other areas, because this feels like an excuse to me. I have some experience playing in Glomdoring, and I can tell you that I cared about totems bigtime, because they were ours, and what's ours needs to be there, because it can, thus it should, thus it MUST. I feel like I do understand the mindset. I also understand that 2-3k power per day is a freaking bangarang perk. Did you know some orgs without villages often have negative net power gain in a day? I didn't, until I played in a city.
It is also easy for me, as a player who is somewhat more distanced from the hardcore org RP I previously enjoyed to say, "This level of consternation is worth nobody's time."
Vive l'apostrophe!
I mentioned absolutely none of that in my "angry argument", because I don't expect you to know anything about that. I didn't mention that to you back then, not even when you sent me a tell saying something along the lines of "Whoa, chill out man", nor was I interested in quibbling about the specifics of the frustration that you directly caused me with your actions in my earlier post.
-----
Edit: Warning this is a derail from your previously scheduled Elder rants.
You've actually jogged my memory now @Lerad . I remember you sending me a curse laden tell, which I guess I could have simply issued, because we were killing the guards at one of Glomdoring's villages. I responded basically, "chill out." From your perspective, I am the one that causing grief here.
My perspective is that you're making this grief for yourself, and also being sort of rude by yelling at me about it. In a game like Lusternia things are going to happen to you and your org that you didn't choose for yourself, your character might be really upset about it, but you shouldn't be as the player. I think this is part of why people have taken to labeling Lusternia players as 'soft'. There's this sort of atmosphere where people find it unacceptable if others are doing something in the game that they don't like. Most people get way too entwined in this game and let IC happenings get them really riled up OOCly.
If we look at it more specifically, what does the guards getting killed cost you? It costs your org less power than your totems are passively generating, and apparently nobody cares about that anyway. You can just resummon a slightly larger stack that we couldn't kill. It would take you maybe 2 minutes of your time. (Or it wouldn't be possible if you just made the guard stack big enough to begin with) This applies for basically every conflict mechanic in Lusternia because they've all be super neutered.
There is of course a line that shouldn't be crossed. If someone is making it so that you can't play the game then they are hurting the game. Vining a city/setting a forest on fire so that noobs die and can't play the game is inappropriate. Similarly intentionally trying to waste peoples' time so that they can't play the game (kick raiding, elder chopping) is inappropriate. For @Xenthos' sake I'd throw in overly long raids, or forcing people to defend when they don't want to into this category as well. (I'll repeat to everyone that hates me for raiding, just send me a tell that you don't want to defend/are busy/not interested, and I'll bugger off. It's not that hard to understand, I'm just looking for fights)
It is unhealthy how worked up people get about guards getting killed, or their elemental lords/mobs getting slain. It has basically no mechanical impact on you. Your character has a good reason to be ticked off, but why you as a player, in the real world are upset about that, I'll never really understand.
P.S. I didn't want to divert from my point about people getting enraged about Lusternia, but part of the problem with Elders is that people can argue that they're not chopping to waste time, but because it's a huge power generator for their enemy org. Power being basically the only measurable way to try to hurt your arch-enemy forest.
P.P.S. I don't mean this to be an attack on you @Lerad , we all get hot sometimes, myself included, but I hope we can recognize when it's justified, or not. That's why I wouldn't ever issue you for it.
I think as you work through your various perspectives, you've already shown why choosing to move in the manner you've described really isn't a choice at all. You've disputed that the argument that totems are upkept is an "excuse", but in the very same sentence you describe that you "cared about totems bigtime, because they were ours, and what's ours needs to be there, because it can, thus it should, thus it MUST."
This mindset you say that you feel you understand, that's the RP. That's the figurative Estarra breathing down your neck. No, she's not actually doing it, and she probably doesn't want to force players to do it, but that's the world, the RP, she created, one that engages you as a player at a level that lets you ignore the fact that this isn't real, and feel viscerally for the need, the RP, to replant. This isn't rocket science, because you understand it at a level that anyone who plays in a commune currently understands it, and you're not even playing in a commune.
2k-3k power is a big perk - but it doesn't matter. I say this repeatedly not because it's not an advantage. It doesn't matter because of that RP you just described. If there was no power, as part of game balance, we'd certainly expect some of the disadvantages communes face to be loosened - but even if we set it up exactly the same as cities mechanically, that RP you described isn't going to change. People aren't going to suddenly say, "Oh, there's no power, it's fine to not replant." They are still going to replant and defend them. That's the meaning of "the power doesn't matter".
Why is the RP more flexible in some areas than others? Well, because the lore is different in those areas. It's like trying to apply the "Don't even bother raising ladies/daughters right now - their presence just invites raids." argument to Avatars. It doesn't matter if the cities would just come back and kill them again after they've been put back up, YOU PUT THEM UP - because they're the Avatars. They're not daughters and ladies. This also happened before - restoring the smobs and getting them killed again, and back-and-forth, back when it was relatively more possible for both sides to keep killing smobs. People didn't stop putting them up even though they knew they would get hit again, because of that same RP.
All that above aside, my point about the mechanic itself being what needs to be changed still stands. This hardcore org RP you previously enjoyed is on its way out, Talan, because people don't care anymore. This is the Maeve all over again. It's fast approaching the point when people WILL start to say fuck the RP, and burning out of the capacity to care anymore. Not because they are now a player in a City who doesn't have to deal with it, but because the frustration has been unacceptable for too long.
This level of consternation is, right now, worth all of my time and effort. It might not be worth yours, but that won't be because the mechanics and frustration are being exaggerated. If you don't care, or don't want to care, that's fine. But settling for an RP "choice" that addresses none of the frustration, and none of the mechanics is not reasonable in any sense of the word.
That's it, that's all I want to contribute.
Yes, like I said, I wasn't interested in accusing you of the specifics of the frustration I felt that day. My post was reacting to your argument about flicking away RP, nothing else. I couldn't care less, in fact, whether you feel like you're wronged about it, or if you feel I am being rude about it, because I've taken my own steps to ensure there is no repeat of what I did that day. But if you're telling people which part of your actions they can and cannot feel angry about, or which part of your behavior they should or should not feel outraged about, then I think I'm not the one being soft. If you want to engage in that kind of conflict, then you'd better grow Shuyin's thickness of skin - because those responses are more than justified (my subjective opinion, of course), and not everyone will stop logging in to remove themselves from the mechanics that cause their reactions.
All of the above is irrelevant to elder chopping mechanics, however. The mechanics themselves are unreasonable, and they should not be defended by the existence of passive power generation, or even by Estarra's insistence that communes and cities be different, or to salve the need of people who want to use (or abuse) it to fulfill their need for adrenaline. In fact, even the hardcore RP of upkeeping totems is no longer enough for communes to force themselves to continue suffering this frustration. Edited to add: I have told Estarra I intend to continue working within the limits she has imposed, of course, but that doesn't mean I should stop myself from expressing my feelings on this matter. Whether I feel angry and frustrated really isn't your place to dictate.
I don't think there's much room to argue that the RP of "attacking the power generators of the enemy" from people who don't have to deal with the mechanic is enough justification to tell people they shouldn't feel frustrated and angry about the mechanic.
If it means we'd run at a loss, so be it. More urge to do other activities to generate power and work together as a team. That's a positive result in my opinion.
I would gladly see the power gain gone tomorrow if it meant that Ravenwoods were far harder to simply wander in and mass chop till you were caught.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
That said, I totally support finding new solutions to the two separate issues that surround totems - parity with statue defense, and parity with power generation. Maybe a new thread.
Vive l'apostrophe!
Vive l'apostrophe!
I'll just be over here, chillin
I'm not averse to starting a new thread, but I'll gladly continue this conversation here, as well. I've mentioned this before, but I think the forums should be a place where a conversation and discussion can start anywhere, even as a derail, and that it shouldn't be a reason to shy from stating an opinion or challenging another person's. It also helps to have a controversial discussion take place in the most checked thread in the forums - if only to elicit a response from people to talk about it. I also think there is merit to continue a discussion from where it started, if only to trace the development of the conversation.
That said, I am almost done with my report draft, and will likely create a new thread about it tomorrow.
It's mainly that, "how dare you mess with my stuff" feeling. Protecting the saplings can be frustrating since they're so vulnerable, but we have ironbark to bandaid that.
This conversation, which isn't even a new one, has been beaten to death now. Let's get back to tweets.
EDIT: In other words, we're getting safe totems and free power and still want the totem mechanics to change even though they only benefit us mechanically.
Is this not true then?
Vive l'apostrophe!
Because I bet Glom's conquest pool isn't do as well as ours, and our string of conquest won't last forever. Even if it did, it's not cool that the winning faction gets to not worry about being griefed - they're already winning. Instead, the mechanic is helping no one, and one of the more frustrating parts is people still defending it.
To cities it's unfair because (one) forest gets free power generation for minimal hassle. For a forest without a massive conquest pool it's unfair because they get punished for not winning by either negating their passive power generation (worse for Glom with its fewer totems) or getting griefed. No one wins.
Kind of unsure where you get the impression nobody is winning here, though.
Vive l'apostrophe!
Well to be fair we commit to raising daughers as much as we commit to raising totems and theres no mechanical benefit to raising daughters really.
So the ironbark arguement is a fair point to bring up as serens totems do generate enough to have fully protected trees but Glomdorings dosn't.
So Glomdoring is given the choice between leaving Ironbark down and opening itself up to tree chopping or havin't a negative power generation.
So Glomdoring is fairly worse off in the totem ironbark department vs serenwilde as well.
Totems still generate power but keeping up ironbark 24 7 would cost glom a few hundred power a day but would leave serenwilde still gaining a few hundred power a day just from totems.
You cannot resolve this issue with just an RP change of heart. One way or the other, you have to change mechanics to resolve this frustration. It's not something you can just wave your hand and fix, people should stop suggesting that it is.
edit: disclaimer: I'm just tossing out suggestions because they're (probably) more palatable for a change than just "Ms. Estarrachev, tear down this totem powergen!". I don't disagree that elder maintenance can be horrible (especially in Serenwilde).