From the other side of it: I have one person snubbed. I do not expect to ever remove it (even though he does not play currently). Interactions with him degraded and it was to the point where in-character interactions were not possible without OOC bleeding in on BOTH our parts (absolutely unfair to either of us or anyone around us).
After snubbing him, I was pressured by many people (including Gods) to unsnub him because the mechanics of snub then made it hard for him to play the game because of my own choice. I found this to be extraordinarily aggravating in addition. On top of having serious issues with a person, I had members of the Administration team (as well as other players) coming to me asking me about it which just dragged it out and made the situation even worse. I would actually prefer that snub did not block the person I snubbed from hearing me, becauseI actually ended up getting harassed more due to the fact it did. None of the people doing it, I am sure, had any realization that that was the end effect but that is how it ended up turning out. Just make it block what the person is saying, let them hear what I say, and if they try to abuse the fact that they can hear you and you cannot hear them, that is what ISSUE is for.
It's kind of a tough conversation, really. I do not think my case is the same as @Sylandra 's at all. For mine, the issue was with the fact that we had repeated, forced interactions based on our roles in the game. Too many interactions, too many opportunities for OOC to bleed IC, and every time just making the situation worse. With distance and much more limited ability to converse it is nowhere near as much of a problem. There is just no opportunity for an explosion that drags in everyone around us. I don't particularly know how you can differentiate between the two, or if it is even possible...
For me, snub working the way it did just added a different set of problems. Not as bad as unsnubbing would have, but still ones that hit home. For others, it may be exactly what is needed. My first post was written immediately as I read the conversation and (obviously) dredged up some of what I was going through at the time.
I am about ready to go on a Most Holy Crusade against forums that do not use bbcode. Holy shit.
I agree. I'll even settle for a limited subset of the ever-growing monstrosity that is Markdown. But BBCode was made for forums everywhere, not this embedded HTML dialog box that gets it wrong more often than right.
Quick note about snub: Snub is meant as a last resort. A protection when you just cannot possibly deal with another player (for non-issueable reasons) and continue to play Lusternia. It imposes restrictions on the person using it just as much as the person it's used against. It would not be okay to snub someone, and then go on to wage an RP smear campaign against them on shared channels/newsboards/etc...
Unfortunately, though, that's not at all how it's used. A couple of examples:
I was snubbed by someone I had never even spoken to because I used the Market channel once an hour.
I was also snubbed by person A because I complained to person B OOCly about them, who turned around and spoke to person A in an IC manner, which caused person A to rage and snub me.
I'm sure the vast majority of snubs in the game are similarly frivolous (from my PoV, at least). Yes, there are certainly cases where snub is warranted, and I'm definitely not arguing about removing it, but I also feel as if it should be recognised that snubbing is generally not used as it is intended to be used.
With all that in mind, I'm very open for making the snubbee able to hear everything the snubber says. I simply cannot imagine a situation where this would be detrimental that would not also go against the spirit of the mechanic.
There is a level of understanding/maturity that is needed by both parties involved in the snubbing. Snubbing is sometimes used to silence someone to 'win the argument' or for 'de-esculating the situation' between two people, which is appropriate?
It would be nice if the HELP SNUB was a tad more defined on a few points like- unacceptable uses of the snub: Using shared news boards to smear other players knowing full well they can not see these posts unless you/they unsnub the other. Using snub to 'win an argument/verbally assault another player' so they can't respond to you. Only to unsnub then and do it again. The 'go around' the snub with alts/other players-A well known no-no.
Yes, I used Nocht's statement because it is a good point in what a snub should not be used for
Personally I know one person who has me snubbed - No clue anymore why, but I must have done something to earn it- Guess what I DON'T CARE. Why because it's their right.
I have a few people snubbed- I don't know @Sylandra 's story- But I think I can understand and say that there is a point where you do not even want to see the says of some people. But at the same time you want to take the higher ground and not interfere with them playing as well.
Currently Playing in: The doctors office. One more needle and I might just lose it again.
hmm, now @Estarra I know you're a smart person, and I am pretty sure you knew that bringing in the Wonderbelt, after the drama and debates that occurred with introducing the wonderhorn, would surely cause an even bigger uproar this time. So im personally curious as to the decision to bring in another wonder item, when it was clear the playerbase is tired of these crazy treasures that add an already oversaturared element to combat?
There is a level of understanding/maturity that is needed by both parties involved in the snubbing. Snubbing is sometimes used to silence someone to 'win the argument' or for 'de-esculating the situation' between two people, which is appropriate?
It would be nice if the HELP SNUB was a tad more defined on a few points like- unacceptable uses of the snub: Using shared news boards to smear other players knowing full well they can not see these posts unless you/they unsnub the other. Using snub to 'win an argument/verbally assault another player' so they can't respond to you. Only to unsnub then and do it again. The 'go around' the snub with alts/other players-A well known no-no.
Yes, I used Nocht's statement because it is a good point in what a snub should not be used for
Personally I know one person who has me snubbed - No clue anymore why, but I must have done something to earn it- Guess what I DON'T CARE. Why because it's their right.
I have a few people snubbed- I don't know @Sylandra 's story- But I think I can understand and say that there is a point where you do not even want to see the says of some people. But at the same time you want to take the higher ground and not interfere with them playing as well.
I can take a look at the help file and see if we can clarify some points! We're never going to be able to cover every situation players find themselves in though. So no one should think, "Well, it's not explicitly forbidden in the rules so I can do it!" I think a good question to ask yourself when snubbing is if you're doing it to gain an advantage over the other person. If you are, you're misusing it.
One last hurdle. I wonder if I can finish up Titan in 3 days of play time.
See you in Sapience.
2
SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
edited February 2016
I don't really want to rehash stuff that happened years ago, and the person doesn't seem to play anymore, but for clarification I snubbed him because l felt unsafe. I was a younger player than him and we were friends, at first, until the friendship led to something more obsessive. He had a Gem of Cloaking. I did not. Sometimes he would slip into a room privately that I was in with the hopes of catching me saying something "bad" about him. I often wouldn't know this until someone else pointed out he had slipped into the room, meaning I'd been talking for awhile without realizing it. He often misconstrued things I said and then passed them along to other people, intentionally alienating me from certain friends. Like Phoebus, who is even now one of my best friends in the world. I almost lost her as a friend because of him. If we were both logged in he demanded my time and attention and would get wildly jealous if I spent time with other people. I would get angry messages about how I as a player wasn't considering his feelings. I got a few drunk emails. Like I said I was young. I blamed myself initially until he started cussing me out for daring to cut my character out of his life. It had gotten to the point that I would not log into Lusternia if I saw he was logged in. That is why I snubbed. That is why I would rather he not see anything I do in game. You don't have to agree with me but that's why I feel the way that I do.
Edit: I just vividly remember making sure if I ever wanted to have a private IC conversation I had to use a room with a door. I remember thinking that if he logged in, he would have to open the door even if he was invisible, and that way I wouldn't be tricked again.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
There is a level of understanding/maturity that is needed by both parties involved in the snubbing. Snubbing is sometimes used to silence someone to 'win the argument' or for 'de-esculating the situation' between two people, which is appropriate?
It would be nice if the HELP SNUB was a tad more defined on a few points like- unacceptable uses of the snub: Using shared news boards to smear other players knowing full well they can not see these posts unless you/they unsnub the other. Using snub to 'win an argument/verbally assault another player' so they can't respond to you. Only to unsnub then and do it again. The 'go around' the snub with alts/other players-A well known no-no.
Yes, I used Nocht's statement because it is a good point in what a snub should not be used for
Personally I know one person who has me snubbed - No clue anymore why, but I must have done something to earn it- Guess what I DON'T CARE. Why because it's their right.
I have a few people snubbed- I don't know @Sylandra 's story- But I think I can understand and say that there is a point where you do not even want to see the says of some people. But at the same time you want to take the higher ground and not interfere with them playing as well.
I can take a look at the help file and see if we can clarify some points! We're never going to be able to cover every situation players find themselves in though. So no one should think, "Well, it's not explicitly forbidden in the rules so I can do it!" I think a good question to ask yourself when snubbing is if you're doing it to gain an advantage over the other person. If you are, you're misusing it.
Presenting a couple of cases for clarification under Leolamins' argument.
Let us assume
-Leo is current City Leader and I am a citizen.
-I have snubbed Leo
-There is a contention for City Leader. Leo is the incumbent.
Which of the following is appropriate:
-I (the snubber) make one city newspost about support for the non Leo candidate.
-I make several city newsposts specifically mentioning Leo possibly dramatic/inflammatory in nature
-I speak to other citizens in tells, channels or in says that I do not want to see Leo reelected
-I make an ass of myself in tells, channels or in says claiming all sorts of things about Leo and his mother that Leo cannot hear and refute.
The difference being under the current snub mechanism, both parties (snubber, snubbee) can see and respond to newsposts. Currently I think that is fair.
Can we like... Stop with the early morning revolts? It's been four in a row now and a majority of the population isn't even around to give proper contestation. I get that not everyone plays at the same time and I'm fine with an off-peak revolt every now and again, but this is a little silly.
But it's totally on-peak for me! (And by extension, most of the north who actively seek conflict atm)
Sure, and I'm fine with that, but having four off-peak revolts in a row is just as disproportionate as having four "on-peak" ones. I'm not saying they all need to be on our time, but I do distinctly remember a time when you'd have one that might be early morning for me but the next would be in the evening and then it'd follow that pattern.
It's not really fair to a good chunk of us who have been practicing FOR revolts and we haven't had a chance to participate for a month now.
I'm fairly sure it's just random and if you went back in time you'd find instances where there have been four or more in a row that have been "on-peak" which left all the "off-peak" players out.
Enemies wandering around Glom. I can't do anything.
Avurekhos says, "Dylara's a PvP menace in my eyes, totes rekting face."
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable. Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.
0
SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
edited February 2016
Been talking to @Phoebus about the snub discussion and we came up with what I think is a good compromise.
Make two options for snub: snub, and snub full.
Snub full would work the way it does now. You don't see them, they don't see you. That would address situations like mine where someone wants to be 100% completely left alone by a person in every possible way.
Ordinary snub would simply tune out the other person, without forcing them to tune you out. This would work in the situation that Xenthos describes.
It would again be up to the discretion of the snubber, and again it's possible that people might use 'snub full' for things that are subjectively over-the-top, but I think it's important that the person snubbing has the autonomy over this choice. Thoughts?
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
I hope that if someone ever finds me creepy/annoying like the person mentioned in Sylandra 's post, that they let me know before they feel the need to snub me.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
3
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
Except I don't see anyone using regular snub when snub full is available.
The problem really is that someone can snub someone else, and then continue to abuse the person they snubbed over public channels, things like that. Yes, ISSUE is a solution. But, Issuing becomes difficult for the snubbee being abused because they don't know it's happening--they can't see. Because the person can't see the abuse, and the people around them don't know that one person has snubbed the other, just who is going to Issue the violation?
As someone who has been repeatedly snubbed/unsnubbed by people who just went on rants and snubbed me before I can respond, I don't understand why it would be bad that the person snubbed can still see everything the snubber says/does. If they don't want to see that, they can simply snub the other person back, and you'll be in the same position you are now.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
4
SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
I hope that if someone ever finds me creepy/annoying like the person mentioned in Sylandra 's post, that they let me know before they feel the need to snub me.
I did. If anyone is wondering.
This is a tricky topic and I do understand the points other people are making. But as someone who has felt that kind of paranoia, and yes even had to issue after snubbing, having the snub mechanic was a godsend. I haven't actually had to think about this in years and doing so has been uncomfortable, so I hope no one minds if I step out of the conversation now. I just don't want anyone to go through what I did and then feel like they were still being watched and mindfucked when they didn't want to be.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
There's only a certain subset of the population that abuses it and those people will get their kumuppins. I always find it humorous when someone snubs me, especially if it's to get in the last word.
There's only a certain subset of the population that abuses it and those people will get their kumuppins. I always find it humorous when someone snubs me, especially if it's to get in the last word.
They haven't yet. Been more than a year in some cases.
I would have used snub instead of snub full. It would have saved everyone a fair bit of unnecessary headache. You could also make snub full have some restrictions / limitations in use (are you sure / confirm). Even then it should not require having to defend your decision to Admin / other people's questioning (as I said, from my own experience that does not make the situation better and just draws out / extends the pain when you are using it legitimately).
My snub policy is this: If you are one of those people that not only never has anything remotely constructive to say, but also clearly only plays the game to screw with people or be a drama whore, then I will snub you to preserve my sanity. This largely only applies to people I know I will encounter at least once a week though
EDIT: To put it more succintly, if you are someone who makes me want to strangle a kitten whenever I hear your voice, I will snub you for the sake of keeping the SPCA off my ass
In that case, I see no harm in there being two levels of Snubbery: SNUB and SNUB FULL. Have the official guidelines on each command be clearly outlined. If someone wants to SNUB FULL another person, for whatever reason, that's their right. Let it be up to the judgement of the individual player, for better or worse.
hmm, now @Estarra I know you're a smart person, and I am pretty sure you knew that bringing in the Wonderbelt, after the drama and debates that occurred with introducing the wonderhorn, would surely cause an even bigger uproar this time. So im personally curious as to the decision to bring in another wonder item, when it was clear the playerbase is tired of these crazy treasures that add an already oversaturared element to combat?
I don't think it was entierly her choice. I'm guessing, but I pretty sure there's pressure from higher ups to keep making wonder items that will actually drive credit sales.
Comments
After snubbing him, I was pressured by many people (including Gods) to unsnub him because the mechanics of snub then made it hard for him to play the game because of my own choice. I found this to be extraordinarily aggravating in addition. On top of having serious issues with a person, I had members of the Administration team (as well as other players) coming to me asking me about it which just dragged it out and made the situation even worse. I would actually prefer that snub did not block the person I snubbed from hearing me, becauseI actually ended up getting harassed more due to the fact it did. None of the people doing it, I am sure, had any realization that that was the end effect but that is how it ended up turning out. Just make it block what the person is saying, let them hear what I say, and if they try to abuse the fact that they can hear you and you cannot hear them, that is what ISSUE is for.
For me, snub working the way it did just added a different set of problems. Not as bad as unsnubbing would have, but still ones that hit home. For others, it may be exactly what is needed. My first post was written immediately as I read the conversation and (obviously) dredged up some of what I was going through at the time.
:-w
Unfortunately, though, that's not at all how it's used. A couple of examples:
I was snubbed by someone I had never even spoken to because I used the Market channel once an hour.
I was also snubbed by person A because I complained to person B OOCly about them, who turned around and spoke to person A in an IC manner, which caused person A to rage and snub me.
I'm sure the vast majority of snubs in the game are similarly frivolous (from my PoV, at least). Yes, there are certainly cases where snub is warranted, and I'm definitely not arguing about removing it, but I also feel as if it should be recognised that snubbing is generally not used as it is intended to be used.
With all that in mind, I'm very open for making the snubbee able to hear everything the snubber says. I simply cannot imagine a situation where this would be detrimental that would not also go against the spirit of the mechanic.
It would be nice if the HELP SNUB was a tad more defined on a few points like- unacceptable uses of the snub: Using shared news boards to smear other players knowing full well they can not see these posts unless you/they unsnub the other.
Using snub to 'win an argument/verbally assault another player' so they can't respond to you. Only to unsnub then and do it again.
The 'go around' the snub with alts/other players-A well known no-no.
Yes, I used Nocht's statement because it is a good point in what a snub should not be used for
Personally I know one person who has me snubbed - No clue anymore why, but I must have done something to earn it- Guess what I DON'T CARE. Why because it's their right.
I have a few people snubbed- I don't know @Sylandra 's story- But I think I can understand and say that there is a point where you do not even want to see the says of some people. But at the same time you want to take the higher ground and not interfere with them playing as well.
Currently Playing in: The doctors office. One more needle and I might just lose it again.
Edit: I just vividly remember making sure if I ever wanted to have a private IC conversation I had to use a room with a door. I remember thinking that if he logged in, he would have to open the door even if he was invisible, and that way I wouldn't be tricked again.
Sure, and I'm fine with that, but having four off-peak revolts in a row is just as disproportionate as having four "on-peak" ones. I'm not saying they all need to be on our time, but I do distinctly remember a time when you'd have one that might be early morning for me but the next would be in the evening and then it'd follow that pattern.
It's not really fair to a good chunk of us who have been practicing FOR revolts and we haven't had a chance to participate for a month now.
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable.
Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.
The problem really is that someone can snub someone else, and then continue to abuse the person they snubbed over public channels, things like that. Yes, ISSUE is a solution. But, Issuing becomes difficult for the snubbee being abused because they don't know it's happening--they can't see. Because the person can't see the abuse, and the people around them don't know that one person has snubbed the other, just who is going to Issue the violation?
As someone who has been repeatedly snubbed/unsnubbed by people who just went on rants and snubbed me before I can respond, I don't understand why it would be bad that the person snubbed can still see everything the snubber says/does. If they don't want to see that, they can simply snub the other person back, and you'll be in the same position you are now.
EDIT: To put it more succintly, if you are someone who makes me want to strangle a kitten whenever I hear your voice, I will snub you for the sake of keeping the SPCA off my ass