Apparently. Why the bloody F does anyone even care about power roles right now, on a no-lynch D2, for any reason but trying to validate or make sense of the claims that have actually been made.
[. . .]
People are starting to become more active about it, but still terrified to actually lynch. To actually use the only way you even have to find out if any word in the last 13 pages is even true.
No one has advocated for a no-lynch D2.
The only reason the conversation is starting to become active again, but with no real front-runner yet, is because conversation about what we are actually going to do today only just started, after 10 pages of fighting over things that were already irrelevant.
Riluna is toast if you advertise her not blocking herself, unless there's a watcher that can watch her and see who attacks.
This is why I'd assume she'd be reasonably safe. The watcher shouldn't tie themselves up on Riluna, but the threat of doing so would hopefully make scum nervous about assassinating her.
The thing is, without some kind of lead - no one (town included) can be at all certain about what they're saying, hence the silence. In the real life game, there are no powers because you can note how people interact and they have no real way to filter their reactions. On a forums game, the scum can theoretically play a perfect act. There are no facial or verbal ticks they need to make, they can run a fine toothed comb over absolutely everything they say and do, because they can take their time and think things out. So yes, the powers are necessary. Without them, it is indeed sheer luck.
Once powers give some information, we can start strategizing about who to lynch, and those power roles can start strategizing on how to use their power to generate things to talk about. For instance, Celina said she could back up your claim as protector. If her vision power allows her to randomly see glimpses of other people using her power, she can try to push people into making claims she knows are false in the conversation. That is the best way to root out who is lying, because there are so few reasons to lie. Without any information, we can only root out who was lying after the fact, and only if they were being REALLY STUPIDLY OBVIOUS about their lies in the first place, to lead us to lynch them. In that event, they would have to be extra double stupid to do anything that would implicate any of the other scum (by action or omission), leading us back to square one of needing leads.
Like, we can discuss the weather all day, it'll never result in figuring out who people are. I'm just confused at what mythical magical discussion uncovers facts when you don't have any hard facts to base that info on.
The only reason the conversation is starting to become active again, but with no real front-runner yet, is because conversation about what we are actually going to do today only just started, after 10 pages of fighting over things that were already irrelevant.
They have, look it up again. Sure nobody said "let's no-lynch" in those exact words. But what you do have (and nobody wants to actually read) is people arguing that voting in general is a bad idea, because OMG I MIGHT BE WRONG. They said "let's be super careful about voting", which is as stupid as a no-lynch for the exact same reasons. And nobody can argue against me except by trying to tell you I'm crazy, so you should just dismiss what I'm saying.
When I die, you will also know that Celina is a liar, and has been arguing for a load of crap that cannot possibly help you, at best. If you people are even capable of realizing that much (look, I'm condescending again).
My way or the highway? Good luck winning, people. That's all you're counting on.
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
Luce clears his throat, catching the attention of everyone before he launches into a long, but logically valid and convincing argument for the innocence of Celina. Perhaps there are flaws within the argumentation somewhere, but he speaks with such conviction and unshakeable confidence that the rest can't help but agree that, at least for now, Celina can't be one of Ermine's henchmen.
If Riluna doesn't want to play anymore, make our action to lynch Riluna, optimal or not. That way, we only drop one [presumable] towns person instead of potentially two.
Vote: Riluna
FakeEdit: I just refreshed the page before posting, seeing that thing. That shows Luce's power (though not if he's town or scum, natch). So yes, just lynch Riluna to resolve this thing and get back to normalcy.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
The only reason the conversation is starting to become active again, but with no real front-runner yet, is because conversation about what we are actually going to do today only just started, after 10 pages of fighting over things that were already irrelevant.
They have, look it up again. Sure nobody said "let's no-lynch" in those exact words. But what you do have (and nobody wants to actually read) is people arguing that voting in general is a bad idea, because OMG I MIGHT BE WRONG. They said "let's be super careful about voting", which is as stupid as a no-lynch for the exact same reasons. And nobody can argue against me except by trying to tell you I'm crazy, so you should just dismiss what I'm saying.
When I die, you will also know that Celina is a liar, and has been arguing for a load of crap that cannot possibly help you, at best. If you people are even capable of realizing that much (look, I'm condescending again).
My way or the highway? Good luck winning, people. That's all you're counting on.
The counter argument to "go google it" is that with the information that comes from powers (such as Celina's visions, you protecting yourself and no one dying, Saran watching Celina, two people arriving and no one dying) we can make assertions that force those people (the people Saran and Celina saw) to make assertions about their own role, and either find existing gaps in their story, or leverage the next night phase to do so. That's it. What people are arguing against is voting at total random without that information, because it reveals people's roles... which does nothing for you if you have no framework with which to evaluate that information.
The counter argument to "go google it" is that with the information that comes from powers (such as Celina's visions, you protecting yourself and no one dying, Saran watching Celina, two people arriving and no one dying) we can make assertions that force those people (the people Saran and Celina saw) to make assertions about their own role, and either find existing gaps in their story, or leverage the next night phase to do so. That's it. What people are arguing against is voting at total random without that information, because it reveals people's roles... which does nothing for you if you have no framework with which to evaluate that information.
Lol, and this is why I don't play. You can google it, and find heaps of arguments, not made by me (and thus not of questionable motivation) about why it's seriously stupid. That we had to roleclaim (because that's the only information anyone cares about) to make you people think you had information is why town is going to lose this game.
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
So, we've been discussing for a while. Discard any of those posts made explicitly as a result of power actions. What do we have left to judge on? Activity records? People saying "Don't lynch me, I'm town" - as literally everyone can be expected to say?
If Riluna doesn't want to play anymore, make our action to lynch Riluna, optimal or not. That way, we only drop one [presumable] towns person instead of potentially two.
Vote: Riluna
FakeEdit: I just refreshed the page before posting, seeing that thing. That shows Luce's power (though not if he's town or scum, natch). So yes, just lynch Riluna to resolve this thing and get back to normalcy.
I've been weighing the option about purposefully voting for someone I'm pretty sure is town, and how counter-intuitive that just plain feels, against the enormous toxicity levels in the thread. But if I've been thinking about it this long, that suggests the toxicity needs to be cleared before we can finally let ourselves consider anything else.
At some point, the only real 'proof' someone can make if they themselves aren't pointing fingers (assuming you read them pointing a finger as indicative of guilt, aka that they have some secret information) is to make a roleclaim, but we have no idea what powers are in the game. Therefore, scum 1 being lynched "Well, I'm the deprogrammer, there must be a cult in this game, you'll need me". If there isn't a cult in this game (who knows), there won't be such a role and you're can't counterclaim, nor do you have any way to prove them wrong without proving absolutely the actions of the (not there) cult. You kill them, congrats you knew if they were lying or not. That doesn't net you any additional scum (if they aren't really bad voters) and if you were already going to kill them, the 'discussion' didn't change anything.
(Wow, I can't believe I'm actually geting to do this.)
I am not convinced at all that Celina has been anything but forthright, and if we really need to confirm her claims by lynching her we can do it in an hour or so when we reconvene after what I'm sure will be Ermine's next sabotage attempt, the clean up for which I'm sure will make me severely regret teaching him German, I'm sure.
I will now Prove the innocence of Celina.
Riluna's assertions so far are that a day-1 no lynch is universally bad, which was debated, and that no one was willing to act today, which was demonstrably untrue. Celina has acted the whole hour as if she had information proving or at least heavily implying that Riluna was town, and we more or less understood that. By forcing Saran's hand, we learned that Celina had been targeted twice last night, but by the fact that she's still breathing and so is everyone else we learn that one of those two was mafia and the other a protective role. So far no one else has claimed to target her, which supports this. Moreover, Saran's statement that he had watched her was corroborated by Celina herself, who states that she had in fact used a targeted power last night. Riluna claims she is the doctor, that she healed/protected herself but was roleblocked, and that this proves Celina is lying. I refute that by saying we could conceivably have a player whose power allows them to steal someone else's role for a night, something that I recall happening in a previous Lusternia Mafia game.
However, whether Riluna is correct with her logic or not, what we're seeing today is that as long as she's here, it's her way or the 200+ post highway, and that's going to suck the fun right out of a game like this.
Therefore, I don't care what her role is, I don't care what her power is or isn't:
Unvote Vote: Riluna
She wants out, and I believe that's the best thing for the thread right now.
One thing that should be noted, I suppose.
If Celina is telling the truth (she has zero reason to not claim a night power, and as a note her claim is the power mine is a variant of) then she confirmed/outed Riluna, Riluna has then claimed to be blocked, which she has no reason to do if she's not town. It would be more likely that she protected Celina and Celina was attacked making the numbers match up. However, that all relies on Celina and Riluna being truthful in their claims. There's also other possibilities, the mafia may not have killed last night because the target has some form of inherent night kill protection.
I maintain my vote on Synkarin. If Celina is to be believed, he may not have a night action so there is nothing necessarily lost from his death. However, as a result of his involvement in the argument we potentially have three powers of the town now outed and it would not be uncommon for a scum to attempt to support a town member (his vote on me immediately after I voted for Celina) so they can protest innocence should that person be revealed as town, again because the mafia would know who is and is not on their side. He's managed to keep attention away from himself, and well... there is always the possibility of him being a survivor role (with his own win condition that would mean the town loses).
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Of course, the possibility that Celina knows Riluna's role because Celina is an investigator on the mafia's side also exists.
This would mean that Celina investigated Riluna, took the information I provided and made the assumption Riluna protected her, which Riluna then disagreed with. Again, this also means we need to consider why no death occurred last night.
We can go round and round like this for quite some time, if we lynch Riluna and learn that yes she is the doctor... what have we learned? We still wouldn't know if Celina's town or not, simply because yes the possibility of a mafia with an investigator does exist. Which seems far more likely than a tracker who learns the name of someone who performed a night action on her (but only one name), or a doctor whose name is revealed to those they protect (which would be ridiculously overpowered if only the town found out but not the mafia or ridiculously underpowered if the mafia also found out), especially when that person is outright saying that they were unable to do so.
Thanks to Luce, we can't lynch Celina today and prove either way. But I am curious as to why people aren't questioning Celina's roleclaim a bit more closely when combined with Riluna's.
I'm not sure what the vote count actually is,but I would like to note that the last 14 pages aren't worthless, and you will find a great deal of stuff without considering power roles in any way. Pay attention to the fact that the primary arguments against me have been 1) "Riluna is insane and not worth listening to", or 2) "I'm not actually reading this, but that looks weird."
Pay attention to the fact that Celina knew I was town, even before she had the ability to use whatever ability she has.
Also pay attention to those who insist I am innocent, even though they admit I am being destructive, but specifically argued that I should be kept around. If you're that convinced I am destructive, I am not worth keeping around, unless you benefit from it.
I really wish I didn't have to be. And I really am sorry. But I want votes. Let me out. Keep them coming.
FWIW Celina has actually made some good arguments since my bandwagon began.
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
@Enyalida. Exactly. And we still have nothing better to go on than that, on Day 2, when we could all have legit known something by now a long time ago. Instead of outing power roles to understand anything.
I need one more vote. Where is it? I'm toxic, bad for town. You know how to shut me up. Do it.
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
I hope we can still salvage any information out of this, as you've muddied the waters considerably by both voting for yourself and actually soliciting votes for yourself. I'm one of those people who thinks that your role provides the most benefit to us, but that we should vote you out anyways - because you'll either quit or continue antagonizing everyone in the thread.
Celina said she thought you were town based on the dogged way you were arguing, I'm confused about how that's relevant.
I've only antagonized nonsense. And argued against people who wanted to make an argument.
If you guys can even lynch me, I am happy with that. This game sucks precisely because it is taking so long to actually lynch, and thus actually have something real to talk about instead of all this irritating nonsense.
(Note: That does not apply to arguments made after my bandwagon began. I am actually pleased with what's coming up after we stopped arguing about why lynching is even stupid.)
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
Lol. Then where is all this great information we're supposed to get on that no-lynch? Your insistence on power roles being the only thing that is important is why it's suicide for me to reveal any information as a power role anyway. I have to paint a target on my back for you to understand the information I'm so desperately trying to give you anyway, so here's the target.
Can you people even lynch at all? I dare you. You're not going to remove one single scum from the game if you don't.
Scum can argue doggedly, too. Being active is not a read on being town. We can't get any read if people aren't active. I could be lying about all of this. Celina could be lying. You're only going to find out one way
Can you even do it?
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
Comments
The only reason the conversation is starting to become active again, but with no real front-runner yet, is because conversation about what we are actually going to do today only just started, after 10 pages of fighting over things that were already irrelevant.
The thing is, without some kind of lead - no one (town included) can be at all certain about what they're saying, hence the silence. In the real life game, there are no powers because you can note how people interact and they have no real way to filter their reactions. On a forums game, the scum can theoretically play a perfect act. There are no facial or verbal ticks they need to make, they can run a fine toothed comb over absolutely everything they say and do, because they can take their time and think things out. So yes, the powers are necessary. Without them, it is indeed sheer luck.
Once powers give some information, we can start strategizing about who to lynch, and those power roles can start strategizing on how to use their power to generate things to talk about. For instance, Celina said she could back up your claim as protector. If her vision power allows her to randomly see glimpses of other people using her power, she can try to push people into making claims she knows are false in the conversation. That is the best way to root out who is lying, because there are so few reasons to lie. Without any information, we can only root out who was lying after the fact, and only if they were being REALLY STUPIDLY OBVIOUS about their lies in the first place, to lead us to lynch them. In that event, they would have to be extra double stupid to do anything that would implicate any of the other scum (by action or omission), leading us back to square one of needing leads.
Celina is unlynchable for the rest of the day.
Votecount
Celina: Unlynchable!
None: 1 (Enyalida)
Synkarin: 1 (Saran)
Riluna: 4 (Celina, Riluna, Luce, Tarkenton)
With 15 alive, it's 8 to lynch.
Vote: Riluna
The counter argument to "go google it" is that with the information that comes from powers (such as Celina's visions, you protecting yourself and no one dying, Saran watching Celina, two people arriving and no one dying) we can make assertions that force those people (the people Saran and Celina saw) to make assertions about their own role, and either find existing gaps in their story, or leverage the next night phase to do so. That's it. What people are arguing against is voting at total random without that information, because it reveals people's roles... which does nothing for you if you have no framework with which to evaluate that information.
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
Vote: Riluna
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."