I'm going to agree that incinerating someone repeatedly does feel a bit too easy, and there's people who have played pyromancer who have admitted this to me.
Keep in mind, changing it away from amputations would also mean you're not bleeding crazy amounts as well. Not sure if mangles would provide the same salve-stacking power, but if they do that could be a reasonable idea.
Changing it to mangles just turns something that requires two applications of regeneration to one application of regeneration. They don't seem to be having much of a problem at all, seeing as how once you get two amputates, you're pretty much dead.
I was thinking, kind of like how nekotai get an advanced timer on finalsting, how about bonecrushers and blademasters get advanced timers on burstorgans and disembowel respectively? Say cut the timer down from 12 seconds down to about...8.
Well, I got about 3 over the last few days, and in each case, the person had really bad curing errors (like, for example, not applying at all ever or never cleansing when slit-locked). 12 seconds is otherwise way too long to be viable.
I was thinking, kind of like how nekotai get an advanced timer on finalsting, how about bonecrushers and blademasters get advanced timers on burstorgans and disembowel respectively? Say cut the timer down from 12 seconds down to about...8.
Is it really a good parallel, though? I don't know much about monks, but I'm fairly certain finalsting requires them to boost their momentum from mo5 to "mo6," which costs five power, limiting its use. It's also the only thing they can do within the form, so it requires a significant amount of setup. It's also on purgative balance, meaning it's a sip.
Burstorgans and disembowel are spammable and a regeneration cure. They don't only lead to a kill method, but they also lead to salve stacking, being a regeneration cure. Salve stacking for blademasters and bonecrushers is really, really good.
So, the comparison looks to be a 5p skill requiring ample setup on purgative balance that isn't spammable and does nothing for the user's offense outside of attempting a kill versus a spammable affliction on salve balance that requires no power, but an ample setup, that not only leads to a kill condition but assists in other areas of the user's offensive (salve stacking).
I was thinking, kind of like how nekotai get an advanced timer on finalsting, how about bonecrushers and blademasters get advanced timers on burstorgans and disembowel respectively? Say cut the timer down from 12 seconds down to about...8.
Is it really a good parallel, though? I don't know much about monks, but I'm fairly certain finalsting requires them to boost their momentum from mo5 to "mo6," which costs five power, limiting its use. It's also the only thing they can do within the form, so it requires a significant amount of setup. It's also on purgative balance, meaning it's a sip.
Burstorgans and disembowel are spammable and a regeneration cure. They don't only lead to a kill method, but they also lead to salve stacking, being a regeneration cure. Salve stacking for blademasters and bonecrushers is really, really good.
So, the comparison looks to be a 5p skill requiring ample setup on purgative balance that isn't spammable and does nothing for the user's offense outside of attempting a kill versus a spammable affliction on salve balance that requires no power, but an ample setup, that not only leads to a kill condition but assists in other areas of the user's offensive (salve stacking).
Are you kidding me? Getting someone to critical wounds anywhere is infinitely harder for both specs than a monk getting to 5-6mo or whatever. Also, 5 power is nothing compared to the cost taken to get to critical wounds, especially when you consider that monks can lock for far cheaper and with considerably less effort.
Salve stacking for all warrior specs is pretty poor considering that salve balance is 1 second and the average warrior balance is 3...
This is of course remembering that you cannot salve-stack regeneration affs, especially on the gut as either specialization.
In pretty much every case, crushaorta/heartpierce or brainbash/behead is superior for the situations where you come close to killing with burstorgans/disembowel.
It's easier for me to quad amp someone than it is to get a disembowel kill, and it's probably the only way I'd pull one off save for bugged out systems.
Rivius is spot on, beheads, heartpierce, impale etc are far easier to pull off than disembowels.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
No reason to preface it like that - I'm just trying to learn, here, heh.
I agree that there's a disparity between building wounds and building momentum, but I'm fairly certain almost everyone would. The power cost associated means that it can't be spammed in exchange for this disparity. A knight has to work on building to wounds then landing the affliction whereas the monk as to work on trying up an opponents curing before even attempting the affliction. The knight can just repeatedly try for it again and again if it doesn't stick, all the while still giving someone something important to cure. This should be especially considered with combos such as disembowel/legtendon, where if you manage to hit both at once (which you can do, but you know that), the opponent would be in dire straits to cure. Not to mention that this combo itself is easily repeated, relying on luck instead of power.
I also don't understand how you can't salve-stack regeneration affs. Would you mind explaining? Being able to hit two body parts at once means that you could get a combo of two of collapsednerve/legtendon/collapsedchest/disembowel as a blademaster or crushedchest/mangled leg/concussion/burstorgans (though I just now realized broken wrist is a mending cure, hmm). It seems like it's not impossible to stack regeneration affs effectively, but I'm not really in-the-know.
Another thing to think about: is this change needed? Sure, it would be nice - but are Blademasters and Boncrushers lacking in a way to kill, or is this just to open up another avenue for a little variety?
You can apply regeneration to two different parts at a time within 1 second of each other basically. And if someone is letting you hit their gut again and again at critical wounds, they deserve to die heh.
And yeah, I feel like if you worked hard to get someone to critical wounds, you should reap some sort of reward from it. Right now everyone ignores disembowel/burstorgans completely. Warrior combat is pretty nuanced and there's some people you'll have a hard time efficiently killing other ways, so an extra avenue to explore is never a bad thing and makes fighting more flexible. Not to mention, even with that change, it'll still be a very hard kill to pull off and will require a lot of skill to do so.
Keep in mind, once they apply for the first disembowel, any others you pull off for the next 4 seconds don't do anything.
Dunno. I feel like, as a Cavalier, I have plenty of options. Maybe I'm just lucky and have a nice, well-defined spec. If Blademasters and Bonecrushers can't abuse regeneration stacking like this, and we won't suddenly see an influx of burstorgans and disembowel deaths in group fights, I don't see why this change shouldn't go through.
However, I'd stay exactly towards the way you suggested it earlier: this acceleration only happens for Blademasters and Bonecrushers.
Pyromancers need to deal less burn levels at a time, which would also help with the amputate issue because it takes more time to get the burns to amp. Also a good change over all it takes 6-7 seconds to use all the apply cures you need. So either make liniment cure more burns at a time or make meld do less burns. You should be able to cure a meld in under 5s easily, it should not take as long as it does (and it stuns).
Also ninjakari get an 8s burst organs. Ceren used to pull them as an unruned BC, you would have to ask him how, but he managed it on Vathael.
Monks and warriors are poorly compared Kio. Warriors are an attrition guild that does affs to screw with your ability to cure or hinder them. While monks are an affliction class that happen to have the same affs as what warriors do.
You can't tumble with any of your limbs missing. In fact, even the symptom message says that. It's a bit weird tbh.
I've had people tumble out right after getting two amps as a PB... so, apparently, they can.
They can't start a tumble with amputated limbs, but any tumble already started will finish. It's entirely possible that they used pre-apply to cure the first amp and then started the tumble before the second one landed.
No to speeding up disembowel/burst organs. They are regeneration cures, which means they are effectively 8s instas. It takes 4s for a regeneration cure to go through, so if you don't apply within 8s, you are dead. Speeding it up to 8s means you have a 4s window to cure, and BC stun or BM double hackdowns can easily keep someone locked.
Nekotai finalsting speeds it up to 8s, crotamine is on an instant cure on purgative balance, and we cannot attempt to reapply our locks repeatedly. We cannot even attempt a lock immediately before or after finalsting, because both finalsting and our lock consumes momentum, so there is zero way of putting them side by side.
Of course, that may be more to do with how useless finalsting is, but if you're comparing Nekotai finalsting and the nekotai repertoire with the warrior repertoire to justify speeding up burst organs and/or disembowel, you're barking up the wrong tree. Warriors are a solid class, they have problems with RNG, and against certain monk setups they might feel like they are up against a brick wall. But they are 100% solid and disembowel/burst organs need no buff.
What? When I initially said to speed it up like finalsting, this was "opposed to speeding up the aff in general". I don't care for a comparison with monks. It's only after Kio did that I replied on that topic.
That said, burstorgans/disembowel kills DO NOT HAPPEN. When I killed someone with it, people asked me how that was even possible. 4 seconds to apply regeneration after building you to crit gut is more than reasonable. As it is right now, you have to somehow hinder curing for over 8 seconds to land either kill. Excuse me, but I play a warrior and I know there's just better avenues if I'm already able to do that.
You have better options than to try for burstorgans/disembowel, and the nekotai have better options than to try for finalsting. Sounds pretty good to me. Ninjakari and Tahtetso remain the only guilds that have <8s windows to cure their regen instas (4s and 7s respectively), a state we should be trying to envoy away from, not adding other guilds/archetypes/specs to.
Lowest tier afflictions (lacerates, furrow brow, slice ear etc) need to be removed from the roll for affliction when you're hitting a target at critical wounds.
5k assault on a leg, assaulting and getting a lacerate both times is not an acceptable level of RNG. I accept I have less control than other classes, that doesn't mean the numbers should entirely screw me over when I've got to that level. The fact I've managed to work someone to critical wounds (especially that high) means if I jab I'm expecting a tendon minimum. Not a lacerate that is essentially useless when fighting classes who only need that small time to stand up and hinder me.
The time it takes a warrior to get critical wounds against some classes (Looking at you deflect tattooarmour Monks) is as long as they need to kill you. If we're going to envoy and fix the problems of group hackdown spam, then there needs to be more control over the class. They won't fix natural miss but there's zero reason why a body part at a critical stage (IE either barely hanging on or cut up like a Freddy Krueger victim) is going to just strike a blood vessel, By the time you're at critical, their veins are likely all sliced through as is.
I appreciate the design/vision etc was to have some level of non control, but when skill begins to be substituted by luck there's a problem.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Well, according to the AB of Maneuvers, you're supposed to be able to increase the chance of a higher level affliction by removing the lower level afflictions from the maneuver.
Everything I've heard about Maneuvers contradicts the AB, though. But if that was implemented, or made more noticeable, that would probably be fine. This also allows keeps the ability to put those lower level afflictions in if you actually want them. Knockdown especially is pretty important. SliceEar/RingingEar can be better than SlitThroat at times too, due to the stun.
Problem is that doesn't guarentee you'll score a higher level affliction.
It just means no lower affliction in the table but if you roll and land on what would have been say a lacerate leg, you just get a generic damage message of a "deep gash in the leg"
The only use I found out of it was when someone wanted 25 ears so I did a hackdown maneuver for slice ear only.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Isn't that exactly what maneuvers are for? Removing afflictions you don't want from the list?
My understanding of how it works currently:
Whenever a Warrior hits a bodypart, a roll occurs. The number is from 1 to X, where X is the current wound level of that body part (and Dex supposedly adds a bonus to the rolled number).
What number is rolled determines what affliction occurs. If the number is in the "heavy" range, then the heavy affliction is landed. If it's in the "light" range, then the light affliction is landed, etc.
What maneuvers allow you to do is remove higher level afflictions in favour of lower level afflictions. For example: If you would rather have a tendon than amputate (due to tendon sprawling and amputate not), then you can not put amputate in your maneuver, and if the roll comes up in the Critical range, it drops down to the next lowest, ie tendon.
So then the suggested change would be if you didn't want a lower affliction, you don't put that in your maneuver, and if you roll within that range, it'll give a bonus to the roll.
If it already works like this, then it's apparently not significant enough to make a difference and can probably be boosted.
So as I understand it, you'd like it so that as you go up in wounds, the floor random value of the roll be raised? Not sure how well that'll fly...
Maybe there should just be general roll bonuses on those with high tier armour, like monks.
0
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
Shedrin's explanation fits with what I've been told--maneuvers don't increase your chances of getting a higher affliction, they allow you to hit a lower affliction instead of a higher one. The exact opposite of what is needed at critical wounds (but useful at times).
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
So as I understand it, you'd like it so that as you go up in wounds, the floor random value of the roll be raised? Not sure how well that'll fly...
Maybe there should just be general roll bonuses on those with high tier armour, like monks.
I'd just like to remove the absolute base tier afflictions (read, require negligible wounds) from the roll table at critical, and spread the roll chance across everything else.
So the following wounds would not be on the roll table at critical: Lacerate arm, lacerate leg, slice forehead, arm artery, leg artery, bloody nose.
Ignore the ones I put in the first post such as brow/ear etc. I had to remind myself exactly what was at the negligible level. Anyway, removing the above at critical state only and spread their roll allocation across the other possible afflictions is what I had in mind.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Comments
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Rivius is spot on, beheads, heartpierce, impale etc are far easier to pull off than disembowels.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Also ninjakari get an 8s burst organs. Ceren used to pull them as an unruned BC, you would have to ask him how, but he managed it on Vathael.
Monks and warriors are poorly compared Kio. Warriors are an attrition guild that does affs to screw with your ability to cure or hinder them. While monks are an affliction class that happen to have the same affs as what warriors do.
Nekotai finalsting speeds it up to 8s, crotamine is on an instant cure on purgative balance, and we cannot attempt to reapply our locks repeatedly. We cannot even attempt a lock immediately before or after finalsting, because both finalsting and our lock consumes momentum, so there is zero way of putting them side by side.
Of course, that may be more to do with how useless finalsting is, but if you're comparing Nekotai finalsting and the nekotai repertoire with the warrior repertoire to justify speeding up burst organs and/or disembowel, you're barking up the wrong tree. Warriors are a solid class, they have problems with RNG, and against certain monk setups they might feel like they are up against a brick wall. But they are 100% solid and disembowel/burst organs need no buff.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
5k assault on a leg, assaulting and getting a lacerate both times is not an acceptable level of RNG. I accept I have less control than other classes, that doesn't mean the numbers should entirely screw me over when I've got to that level. The fact I've managed to work someone to critical wounds (especially that high) means if I jab I'm expecting a tendon minimum. Not a lacerate that is essentially useless when fighting classes who only need that small time to stand up and hinder me.
The time it takes a warrior to get critical wounds against some classes (Looking at you deflect tattooarmour Monks) is as long as they need to kill you. If we're going to envoy and fix the problems of group hackdown spam, then there needs to be more control over the class. They won't fix natural miss but there's zero reason why a body part at a critical stage (IE either barely hanging on or cut up like a Freddy Krueger victim) is going to just strike a blood vessel, By the time you're at critical, their veins are likely all sliced through as is.
I appreciate the design/vision etc was to have some level of non control, but when skill begins to be substituted by luck there's a problem.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
It just means no lower affliction in the table but if you roll and land on what would have been say a lacerate leg, you just get a generic damage message of a "deep gash in the leg"
The only use I found out of it was when someone wanted 25 ears so I did a hackdown maneuver for slice ear only.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
My understanding of how it works currently:
So the following wounds would not be on the roll table at critical: Lacerate arm, lacerate leg, slice forehead, arm artery, leg artery, bloody nose.
Ignore the ones I put in the first post such as brow/ear etc. I had to remind myself exactly what was at the negligible level. Anyway, removing the above at critical state only and spread their roll allocation across the other possible afflictions is what I had in mind.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!