You guys really need to post more logs (and discuss them for the purpose of enhancing the game)

Yarith

It helps when manabarbs:NSB is contributing a flat 100% increase of all mana drain efficiency (50% NSB increased mana loss -> 50% more health damage taken from mana drains = 100% more total vital pool damage [Edit: This is of the flat mana drain amount prior to modification, not the totality of the pool sum, obviously]).

Xenthos

I'm talking about overall class mechanics and not nerfing a class into the ground because you don't like that they have a powerful ability.

Wiccans are built around draining mana for toadcursing.  Twist fills that roll; it gives the Shadowdancer some affliction pressure to work towards it, but without absolute control (once you progress your shadow past a certain point you can't go back, and you can only squeeze it to reapply the same affliction a limited number of times).

Are you planning to make the same change for Moondancers?  Nix Succumb, have to build up rubies / make them max whatever-the-mechanic-is / kill if at max?  It just doesn't make sense to make a change like that unless you're overhauling the class as a whole (including fae) since it doesn't fit in their current mechanics and won't be supported by anything else they've got.

Yarith

You're still ignoring my main point. Why not just bring it into line with rubies?

Edit: You want a secured 7 step kill method which does literally everything which the opponent can't even nix the progression of. Where's the fun/effort in that?

Lothringen

+1 for Ceren circa 2007.

Good times.

Xenthos

... okay, I just responded to that point and said you can't do that without overhauling the class because nothing else works towards a goal like that.  The rest of their stuff would become suddenly pointless.  Your suggestion involves another mechanic (ala timewarp), having to "nighterplex" to get up to the maximum amount of that new mechanic, with nothing else supporting it whatsoever.

Edit to your edit: I just watched Veyils finaltwist Maligorn earlier and not get a secured kill out of it.  It's pretty obviously not a guarantee, so... when you start spouting stuff like that, it really makes it hard to take you seriously.

Yarith

..No. Twists are already a 7 step progress mechanic. Remove the power cost, remove the hindering, keep 7th twist as is but allow the opponent to stonewall with kether.
(Although, the true analog would require a separate action after 7th twist with a supplementary source of aeon. This is already more viable than ruby plex quake).

Edit: Secured as in there's no stopping the progression ie: kether.

Xenthos

Yarith said:

..No. Twists are already a 7 step progress mechanic. Remove the power cost, remove the hindering, keep 7th twist as is but allow the opponent to stonewall with kether.
(Although, the true analog would require a separate action after 7th twist with a supplementary source of aeon. This is already more viable that ruby plex quake).

Ah, I see.  You're now trying to argue envoy reports on the forums.  Is that what this whole thing is about, then?

Yarith

I have no idea what you're talking about. 
I'm just sharing my opinion. Lord knows I barely log in anymore and I, personally, have no faith in Lusternia ever being an environment I enjoy pvping in, envoys or no, so I do not really see myself lobbying.

If you are trying to segue out of this dialog, by all means.

Xenthos

Yarith said:

I have no idea what you're talking about. 
I'm just sharing my opinion. Lord knows I barely log in anymore and I, personally, have no faith in Lusternia ever being an environment I enjoy pvping in, envoys or no, so I do not really see myself lobbying.

If you are trying to segue out of this dialog, by all means.

Really don't believe that; the timing of this whole thing is pretty telling.  I've already left my thoughts and comments on this exact idea on the envoy report in question, which is where they should be.

Yarith

Pretty telling?
I've been comparing twist and rubies energetically since the day I took Institute.

Edit: I was vaguely aware there was a twist report up but I haven't even as much as looked through the comments. You shouldn't insinuate, but I guess you're just being a little paranoid.

Deichtine

Yarith said:

It helps when manabarbs:NSB is contributing a flat 100% increase of all mana drain efficiency (50% NSB increased mana loss -> 50% more health damage taken from mana drains = 100% more total vital pool damage [Edit: This is of the flat mana drain amount prior to modification, not the totality of the pool sum, obviously]).

Take out the mana barbs only and you take out roughly 15k damage

Take out the nightshade blues only and you take out 5k mana drain and 5k damage

10k vital pressure vs 15k vital pressure. Not a hard sum to figure out which is bigger vitals pressure right?

Xenthos

Yarith said:

Pretty telling?
I've been comparing twist and rubies energetically since the day I took Institute.

The timing of this whole discussion (logs and the people rushing to argue it) is pretty telling, yes.  And pretty much goes hand-in-hand with some of the comments I made there, which is that it's very hard to take the report as being anything other than what it appears to be.  Benefit of the doubt was given, but that has since been worn away.  Would be nice if things were different, if there wasn't a need to go "rargh nerf" at all the stuff we don't like while vehemently arguing that the things that support us are just fine (yes, I do acknowledge this goes both ways to some extent, but I also strongly feel that you are all drastically overvaluing Twist and undervaluing Succumb in its new state-- the two could even be swapped (along with Wane) and I'm sure that we'd end up with begging for it to be switched back).

Yarith

I have no idea what your figures are depicting and I'm not about to go through that log and tally them up to check for your accuracy, both in numerical method and in meaning deduction.
Instead, I'll present this:

Mana drain attack: 1000 total  v. damage
Manabarbs : 1000 total  v. damage
NSB:Manabarbs: 500 total  v. damage
NSB: 500 total  v. damage


Drain: 1000, Drain + barbs: 2000,  Drain + NSB: 1500, Drain + NSB + barbs : 3000.

Not hard to tally up.

Deichtine

10k is a smaller number than 15k. Its not a hard sum to look it up.

Yarith

@Xenthos
 I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I just logged into the game now and read through the report (an even more boring and trying endeavour than commenting here). Nobody is expecting you to reply.

@Veyils
 You just presented random numbers with no context. I have no idea what you're trying to get across and how it translates.

Maligorn

@Xenthos I honestly think you're sending a really bad message when you comment like Twist belongs to you and your org. It belongs to the entire game. Envoys aren't supposed to be in partisan camps and only envoy their own skills. There should be a level of trust and professionalism that allows other envoys to envoy other org's skills. You see a Twist report and immediately think "why didn't they run this by me?!". That's inappropriate imo. They didn't run it by you because you're extremely sensitive to nerfs. You already displayed this attitude in the Bonds report and the admin still judged, ultimately, that it needed the change it was given. Defend Twist if you have to. Don't try to weaken the report (or any future reports) by calling it a partisan move. And if you feel strongly enough, make another report on Succumb, and discussion can be had there, as well.

EDIT: In fact, I believe a whole wealth of information is valid especially when you're on the receiving end of other people's skills. Sometimes people just don't realize how strong their skillsets are, but other people actually have to live with fighting against them.

Maligorn

Ultimately, if you guys don't make a report on Succumb, it's tacit acceptance  of the balance of the skill and how it works. We, however, do not agree that Twist is balanced, so we're reporting on it. You're free to do the same on Succumb. This goes for any skill. That's how I see it, anyway.

Xenthos

Maligorn said:

@Xenthos I honestly think you're sending a really bad message when you comment like Twist belongs to you and your org. It belongs to the entire game. Envoys aren't supposed to be in partisan camps and only envoy their own skills. There should be a level of trust and professionalism that allows other envoys to envoy other org's skills. You see a Twist report and immediately think "why didn't they run this by me?!". That's inappropriate imo. They didn't run it by you because you're extremely sensitive to nerfs. You already displayed this attitude in the Bonds report and the admin still judged, ultimately, that it needed the change it was given. Defend Twist if you have to. Don't try to weaken the report (or any future reports) by calling it a partisan move. And if you feel strongly enough, make another report on Succumb, and discussion can be had there, as well.

Skills are part of classes that are part of organizations.  Period.  Those skills drive how that class functions.  When you go targeting reports to nerf another the skills of another class, you absolutely should be "professional" (to use your own words) about it.  Part of being professional is having a conversation with people who have experience using said skill to get their input.  Do you need to shape all solutions around what they say?  No, of course not.  But should you take what they say into account?  Absolutely.  In addition, Glomdoring has multiple other envoys.  If someone doesn't want to talk to me, there are others that could be approached.  When this step is skipped entirely, it does in fact look partisan-- because it is partisan.  There's no attempt to actually craft it in such a manner as to draw others on board from the beginning.

When I make a report about another organization's skills (or even another class' in my own organization), I do in fact approach users and ask them about it.  Why?  Because they are the ones who have experience in using it, who will know if what I'm suggesting makes any sense whatsoever, and gives them the ability to buy-in on the report (or at  least on one option on it).

Getting more input and crafting a better report from the get-go is, in fact, professional.

Xenthos

Maligorn said:

Ultimately, if you guys don't make a report on Succumb, it's tacit acceptance  of the balance of the skill and how it works. We, however, do not agree that Twist is balanced, so we're reporting on it. You're free to do the same on Succumb. This goes for any skill. That's how I see it, anyway.

This is how Envoy Wars are born.

Deichtine

Mana barbs contributes more to the vitals damage than nightshadeblues directly. I'll go through it a point at a time to make sure you understand and that its clear to everyone. If anyone is having any trouble understanding any of the points let me know and I'll explain the numbers to you in more detail if you need.

Lets say over the course of a fight you do 10k mana drain.

If you do 10k mana drain and you have manabarbs on that means you have done 10k health damage as well. The way the mana barbs skill works it is translates 100% of the mana drain to vital damage.

Ok so adding in mana barbs adds in an extra 10k of vitals damage. With me so far? So thats 20k of total vitals damage.

Now if we take out mana barbs and see what it would be with just Nightshade blues. Nightshade blues does 1.5 mana drain. So if you times 10k by 1.5 that makes the number 15k. Ok understand that? Nightshade blues alone contributes 5k vital drain in this example.

If we delete nightshade blues and leave in mana barbs I'm still doing 20k of vital pressure. If we delete out mana barbs and leave in nightshade blues I'm doing 15k of pressure.

Its a pretty simple thing to see that its mana barbs that's causing the biggest amount of pressure. Nightshade blues exacerbates the situation but really its the auircs that are the big issue for pressure in these logs. Also in quite a lot of other logs. Add in a dreambeast even with the new weakened numbers in the report to aurics and you have a beast thats easily doing 20%/10%/10% on a six second tick.

I'm sort of tempted to consider asking for aurics to only work for bard skills. Take out the huge damage from things like dreambeast/lash/succumb etc etc.

What would peoples thoughts on that be?

Deichtine

Xenthos said:

Maligorn said:

Ultimately, if you guys don't make a report on Succumb, it's tacit acceptance  of the balance of the skill and how it works. We, however, do not agree that Twist is balanced, so we're reporting on it. You're free to do the same on Succumb. This goes for any skill. That's how I see it, anyway.

This is how Envoy Wars are born.

Agreed. We don't want to descend into a petty tit for tat lets nerf the other sides stuff. I hope all the envoys are all above that.

Yarith

If you add both it's 30 k damage.
If you have one you have the other.
What's your point?

Deichtine

Yarith said:

If you add both it's 30 k damage.
If you have one you have the other.
What's your point?

We take out mana barbs from the equation and that makes life much better for folks vitals?

Yarith

Then you just create a field where Glom alone can obtain 15k damage in that situation.

Maligorn

Veyils said:

Xenthos said:

Maligorn said:

Ultimately, if you guys don't make a report on Succumb, it's tacit acceptance  of the balance of the skill and how it works. We, however, do not agree that Twist is balanced, so we're reporting on it. You're free to do the same on Succumb. This goes for any skill. That's how I see it, anyway.

This is how Envoy Wars are born.

Agreed. We don't want to descend into a petty tit for tat lets nerf the other sides stuff. I hope all the envoys are all above that.

It's not petty unless you cast it in that light, though. All envoys should feel like it's not a personal attack or partisan move, right. They just need to argue against it if they feel it's an inappropriate change. It just muddies the waters if you immediately think it's a petty move.

A few months ago I did draw up a report on Twist and gave it to Shedrin, and asked him to show it to Tarken to get feedback. I don't know whatever happened to that.

Deichtine

Yarith said:

Then you just create a field where Glom alone can obtain 15k damage in that situation.

Yes different bard specs have different strengths. You are correct. Well done for noticing that.

Deichtine

Maligorn said:

Veyils said:

Xenthos said:

Maligorn said:

Ultimately, if you guys don't make a report on Succumb, it's tacit acceptance  of the balance of the skill and how it works. We, however, do not agree that Twist is balanced, so we're reporting on it. You're free to do the same on Succumb. This goes for any skill. That's how I see it, anyway.

This is how Envoy Wars are born.

Agreed. We don't want to descend into a petty tit for tat lets nerf the other sides stuff. I hope all the envoys are all above that.

I highly doubt any of the Glomdoring envoys would've envoyed Twist on their own. That being said, a few months ago I did draw up a report on Twist and gave it to Shedrin, and asked him to show it to Tarken to get feedback. I don't know whatever happened to that.

Thats showing a little of your bias.

Maligorn

Yes, yes it is. I'm sorry if I'm scarred by that Bonds report. I edited that bit out because Glomdoring has (mostly) new envoys now.

Yarith

Continually trying to belittle me doesn't do much for your reputation.

You're trying to paint Manabarbs as being the only problem, which isn't true. 

Edit: If you could stop making your font really small that'd be great too.

Deichtine

Well lets move past any bias or certain others attempts at forum trolling and actually speak about how we can improve the game. We've already pointed out the curing failures in the two logs but in terms of envoy ideas what are peoples thoughts on making aurics bard only effects?

Positives or negatives?