Well lets move past any bias or certain others attempts at forum trolling and actually speak about
how we can improve the game. We've already pointed out the curing
failures in the two logs but in terms of envoy ideas what are peoples
thoughts on making aurics bard only effects?
Positives
or negatives?
You mean removing manabarbs/egovice from other classes? That doesn't really solve the problem. Bards still have easy, on-demand aurics and are the best at making them stick, too.
EDIT: Do you mean only having minorsixth and other song effects (like NightFade for example) proc them?
Well lets move past any bias or certain others attempts at forum trolling and actually speak about
how we can improve the game. We've already pointed out the curing
failures in the two logs but in terms of envoy ideas what are peoples
thoughts on making aurics bard only effects?
Positives
or negatives?
You mean removing manabarbs/egovice from other classes? That doesn't really solve the problem. Bards still have easy, on-demand aurics and are the best at making them stick, too.
Oh no sorry I maybe didn't explain my point very well.
I mean making it so the aurics effects no longer ticked on non bard skills.
Eg if I lash you with mana barbs lash no longer triggers the mana barbs and you no longer take health damage from it. But a bard who hits you with M6 will still trigger the mana barbs and you'll take mana and health damage for example.
I didn't think about it before but after seeing your log and then going back over and seeing myself getting chunked by 5k damage ticks on sucumb and dreambeast I'm thinking that maybe these kind of abilities shouldn't stack quite so well.
Maybe reduced effectiveness. Mana barbs only does 1/3 or 50% of the mana drain from non bard stuff.
Final note on that envoy wars thing: Maybe I'm totally misguided, but I thought envoys were supposed to be the players' voice into game balance. What should it matter which org makes which report? The ideal is to make the game enjoyable for the players. I am fully aware of how Succumb can nuke mana. I am also fully aware of how frustrating Twist is to fight against. I feel like it should be a natural thing to open the floor for both of these skills, and reduce the angst that comes from both. Yes, envoys of the class/org that the skill is from are going to have an intimate knowledge of the skill - good. That means they can argue for or against the report, and correct misunderstandings or provide context. Furthermore, envoys don't even have the last word on the outcome of the report.
Envoys should be speaking to each other, especially those in other organizations if they are planning on envoying those skills. That's expected and I'm not sure why it's being argued that it should be ok to not talk about it. Every envoy is going to have a natural bias, and the way to avoid that is to work together with your fellow envoys. By not reaching out to those envoys, you are working off your own bias instead of working towards a common solution that benefits everyone and solves the problem while not over doing it.
Look, you're complaining about the replacement to Choke. This started
out as room choke. It got nerfed to single-target choke (that hit both
caster and target). Then Succumb & Lash got switched (because "having passive drain and choke is too much"). Then that
wasn't good enough so Choke got deleted entirely and turned into Twist.
Twist has also been hit a couple of times (no more *locks, for
example).
Just want to comment on this real quick.
I don't believe "we already nerfed it many times" to be a valid defence against further nerfs. Even if nothing else about the game has changed, which it has, a skill or class can still be overpowered following multiple nerfs.
I rather like twist. Think the game would be more fun if every org had a unique system on its side like Glom does. Maybe the new classes are going to provide some similar pressure/fun.
Just my opinion, I literally can't afford to stress out over this game right now.
I rather like twist. Think the game would be more fun if every org had a unique system on its side like Glom does. Maybe the new classes are going to provide some similar pressure/fun.
Just my opinion, I literally can't afford to stress out over this game right now.
Just
looking at my side of the log. You enter the room. Mal starts to meld
up. Minkahmet starts to throw haegl runes at tyamit. Faleron and
Aramel attempt a scissor. kick Ejdhera hits Tarken with his combos.
It sort of seemed like there wasn't any focus to the targets in that inital fight so you kinda gave us free reign for all of us to just attack you unhindered.
-> Even if everyone hit one person target would have died in ~6s. Scissorflip is still roomwide hinder, probably better than everyone hitting one person in this one context.
(I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)
== Professional Girl Gamer == Yes I play games Yes I'm a girl get over it
Envoys should be speaking to each other, especially those in other organizations if they are planning on envoying those skills. That's expected and I'm not sure why it's being argued that it should be ok to not talk about it. Every envoy is going to have a natural bias, and the way to avoid that is to work together with your fellow envoys. By not reaching out to those envoys, you are working off your own bias instead of working towards a common solution that benefits everyone and solves the problem while not over doing it.
I will say that the wall of stuff written back and forth here was exactly the reason why I didn't go into a verbal discussion with people beforehand, as I commented on the report as well. I did feel twist was a heated topic and while I risked making some people feel bad ( which I am sorry for, not my intention ) I didn't do this to attack or ignore people. This being called a partisan move I find extremely sad and insulting. My reasons where that I a) wanted to be able to be able for everybody to read back on the discussion through the report and b) wanted to be able to actually comment on things when I had the energy to focus on it.
I can just say again, am really shocked at the behavior everybody's displaying. I thought what I was offering was something that nearly every skill has: a way to reset the state of the attack outside of combat.
It's really frustrating when people always assume you're just out to attack them. Combat and envoy is one of the most frustrating things of late and that report ( and the blow up here on the forum ) is just a show of that.
Envoys should be speaking to each other, especially those in other organizations if they are planning on envoying those skills. That's expected and I'm not sure why it's being argued that it should be ok to not talk about it. Every envoy is going to have a natural bias, and the way to avoid that is to work together with your fellow envoys. By not reaching out to those envoys, you are working off your own bias instead of working towards a common solution that benefits everyone and solves the problem while not over doing it.
I will say that the wall of stuff written back and forth here was exactly the reason why I didn't go into a verbal discussion with people beforehand, as I commented on the report as well. I did feel twist was a heated topic and while I risked making some people feel bad ( which I am sorry for, not my intention ) I didn't do this to attack or ignore people. This being called a partisan move I find extremely sad and insulting. My reasons where that I a) wanted to be able to be able for everybody to read back on the discussion through the report and b) wanted to be able to actually comment on things when I had the energy to focus on it.
I can just say again, am really shocked at the behavior everybody's displaying. I thought what I was offering was something that nearly every skill has: a way to reset the state of the attack outside of combat.
It's really frustrating when people always assume you're just out to attack them. Combat and envoy is one of the most frustrating things of late and that report ( and the blow up here on the forum ) is just a show of that.
Yes while the intention started off as a simple request the comments from certain parties turned into an attack and a request to nerf the skill to the ground. I think it was hijacked partially because one of the solutions would be a large change and nerf to how the skill works in combat instead of just a way to reset the state of the attack outside of combat. Some folks in the comments have gone far far too far I agree and I think this is part of the reason why Its generally considered good ettiquette to disccuse and speak with your fellow envoys before attempting to nerf a skill. Like I said in the comments solution 2 and 3 would work fine with minor tweaks but solution one just simple does not work for a variety of reasons.
If you look at other reports in a similar vein, bonds, angknek and so on you'll find there was a lot of discussion before hand so when the report was put out no one felt blindsided and the solutions that put in are generally considered well thought out by everyone involved.
I suppose its a case of live and learn for next time. We have an envoy channel and a message board for these types of discussions and really you shouldn't shy away from speaking to other envoys.
If you look at other reports in a similar vein, bonds, angknek and so on you'll find there was a lot of discussion before hand so when the report was put out no one felt blindsided and the solutions that put in are generally considered well thought out by everyone involved.
You should read the bonds report again before using it as a reference and you can reach me in private and I can walk you through why you should do that. But if you don't want to waste your time, check here:
<br>---[Xenthos on 12/4 @ 03:12 writes]:<br>Anyways, looking at the comments now, it's pretty obvious it's a pileon on "skill we don't like that <span>our enemies have so we need to take it away," rather than an actual real game balance concern. </span>
Honestly? This is happening because we've lost Shuyin, Shedrin and Wobou to inactivity or whatever other reason there's. I didn't always agree with them but they managed to reach a general consensus and fruits of their work were often appreciated from both sides and it did reflect a vision for everyone in the game. And the righteous self-adjustments they did, for the skillsets they "own" were just icings on the cake. (which often was simply toning down/cutting out what didn't make sense.)
"Oh the year was 453CE, how I wish I was in Serenwilde now... aletter of marque come from the regent to the scummiest aethership I ever seen, gods damn them all...I was told we'd cruise the void for auronidion and dust, we'd fire no turrets, shed no tears.. now I'm a broken man on a Hallifax tier, the last of Saz's privateers."
Yeah... what? You do realize that Wobou actually spoke with us beforehand, and Sol2 of that report was his "Hey, I spoke with you guys and this is what you came up with" solution? I was fine with that-- the skill absolutely should drop on death of the caster, just like multiple other things do.
What brought that report over the edge was the comments, and that's the exact same thing that is happening in this new report too. The difference is that Wobou spent the time trying to get buy-in, which is why the report itself didn't feel like a hatchet job initially (as it went on, with comments shaping perception of the report and intent, things like "massive advantage" and "overly large" in the problem set did end up being problematic though).
Honestly? This is happening because we've lost Shuyin, Shedrin and Wobou to inactivity or whatever other reason there's. I didn't always agree with them but they managed to reach a general consensus and fruits of their work were often appreciated from both sides and it did reflect a vision for everyone in the game. And the righteous self-adjustments they did, for the skillsets they "own" were just icings on the cake. (which often was simply toning down/cutting out what didn't make sense.)
While I agree that the above mentioned were all good envoys, I think it's incredibly harsh and insulting to say that the current envoys are incapable of replicating the type of work they did. Even with the ones mentioned above, if you spoke to certain individuals, they were not great envoys. Skill strengths in general can be very subjective. If it's not already obvious, it's pretty clear that one side can think a skill is absolutely the best, while the other thinks it's not worth much. This usually takes form in skills in that one side faces to be super strong while the skills they use are reasonable and balanced. It can take form in other iterations as well, so lets not be quick to dismiss that. This natural bias is in general why it's a good thing to consult the other envoys.
I will note that in the Bonds report you mentioned, that 1) Wobou discussed it with Glom envoys prior to finishing it (as noted in the comments) and 2) That even with the above comment, Xenthos did agree with some of the solutions (since you were singling him out there).
@Aeldra - I was not trying to insult you or point any fingers, so please do not take it that way. I am speaking in general terms about how the envoy process should work. Everybody knows that it's not perfect, but as long as Lusternia strives to keep unique classes, skills and strategies, it will not be perfect. When envoying other orgs skills, especially if those are nerfs, the report should be considered very carefully and the envoys that use the skill should be involved. At the very least, if you cannot come to an agreement, you can still say you at least tried, nobody can feel blindsided.
I think we have very good envoys currently, who are in generally willing to work together to find common ground and solutions.
To clarify a bit, he spoke with us before writing it in the first place and incorporated our thoughts into his solution set (not so much the problem set, but gave us something to work with off the bat and we knew what was up) before it was marked Pending.
Regarding twist, I want to note that every Glom envoy in the report in question proposed or supported a solution to the stated problem. This genuinely did not need to be difficult/irritating for anyone involved. We use twist every day: we know how potent persisting shadows are. I'm not sure where the idea that our envoys will stonewall needed changes is coming from, to be honest.
As for twist strength, personally (potentially controversial opinion) I feel most of the guardians are in a terrible state and is why most people fighting at the moment are rolling chem/bard outside of Glom/Gaudi/Seren. That's not an opinion I'm going to argue as its obviously very subjective, but its the one I hold presently.
@KalikaiI didn't consider it an insult from your direction at all, so no worries. I'm just frankly a little tired that this rift that exists between 'north' and 'south' leads to default assumptions, insults and arguments on both sides on every turn. It's, to me as someone who's got an instinctive desire for harmony on an ooc level, very exhausting. And yes, natural bias is a thing, which is why we do have reports and people from every org and a chance to discuss this and in principle, this is a good idea.
Lately though, am seen very much north/south level conversation, or maybe i'm just worn out and not seeing it when it's not north/south, it's entirely possible.
@tarken I agree that it wouldn't needed to be difficult, people comment their opinion on it, I adjust problem/solutions as people feel the need for it to adjust it so they're fine with it... problem solved. Or at least that was how I hoped it would go.
Next time? I'm not sure yet. I suppose there are some lessons learned, but honestly, ... it's stuff like this that makes it hard to be part of the game community, at least for me. Sure, some of it is probably my fault, but... just take a step back and read that report again. It's still horrifying to me.
Just as a random idea but well speaking about it can be hard if folks are on different play times and you are not always around. Would an envoy discord maybe help? I know like 70% all the discussion between me and Wobou/Anelissa on changing monk stuff was done via discord and I say a bunch between wobou and shuyin about bonds there as well before the report was put forwards.
Maybe an envoy discord or irc chat room type thing would do the job and make folks lives easier for quick discussions.
Just as a random idea but well speaking about it can be hard if folks are on different play times and you are not always around. Would an envoy discord maybe help? I know like 70% all the discussion between me and Wobou/Anelissa on changing monk stuff was done via discord and I say a bunch between wobou and shuyin about bonds there as well before the report was put forwards.
Maybe an envoy discord or irc chat room type thing would do the job and make folks lives easier for quick discussions.
Personally? I think an envoy discord would at least give some people like me a chance to catch up on discussions and I'd personally wouldn't mind having something like that.
I'm just going to briefly echo Kalikai's words and add my own here:
The envoy system is not perfect. On any side. Players often bring things up out of frustration more than an actual need for balance, or draw conclusions off faulty or incomplete data. Administrators, in an attempt to limit this, sometimes make mistakes in our decisions (and I have generally been happy to discuss and explain where we are coming from when this happens, and have changed decisions I have made based on this in the past). And in the end, as a conflict-driven game, the human element slips in in the form of bias or outright hostility.
My current goal is to avoid leading the envoy system to a point wherein, as back in 2009-2011, we had what people referred to the envoy wars. I am very familiar, firsthand, what it was like to be an envoy during this timeframe, and it was not pleasant. I am fairly displeased to see that we are slipping back toward this, and I am unsure I can watch this occur without taking some of the blame myself for what is happening.
Regardless, I am also in a unique position to put a stop to it. I will be, as soon as I find the time (which comes below a few accessibility changes I need to implement ASAP and my real life right now), I will be enacting a review of the current envoy system (and all current envoys) to see what changes need to be made, especially since there was a major change to the system four months ago.
I will also be seeking to enact public townhalls on a few major subjects, and if I can manage to do this, I will be enacting them and announcing the dates and times.
In the meantime though, I will say this: The personal attacks and outright hostility on these forums is not going to be tolerated. If it continues further, I will be strictly moderating it, including closing this thread and forum-jailing if need be. The majority of the people speaking here are adults, and there is no need for us to be acting like gradeschoolers.
A serious idea to fix the current issue of manabarbs. Currently, achromatic aura is only giving a buff to sound based damage. It is in my opinion, the least important of the four aurics. What if, to curve the imbalance of manabarbs, egovice, and powerspikes in other classes, these would do less damage without achromatic aura. For example 66 percent? (Example 1:1 Mana to health ratio, it would be 1:.66). This causes the bard to use one extra balance to get the full effect which can be game changing.
This message has been sponsored by Hospital drugs sedating us poor humans 25 ccs at a time
@Kalikai I'm not an envoy, I never wanted or applied to be one either. (Which is admittedly taking the easier path.)Long story short, I've personally lost my faith in the powerhouses of Lusternia, namely the administration and the system over time. And since june or so it's gotten to a point where I stopped playing the game altogether, except the irregular and rare returns to reunite with the friends and the other friends called poteens.
I honestly think my post was misinterpreted as I wasn't trying to paint all your envoys out there, of course. Nor was I trying to insult any of them. But I wanted to underline how defensive and evasive they can get sometimes. I've nothing personal against @Xenthos, I'm sure he knows it. Yet I decided to openly use him as an example, since what I've copied is written down at a report which everyone else also has access to read, I found no harm in doing so. I found him being extremely defensive back then, now I find him being very defensive today. A similarity he doesn't object though he does have his reasons as elaborated above in his posts.
Unless I missed a changelog/announce post about it, I still hold the right to have my own opinions and criticize others' as long as it's not insulting, don't I?
However, asides from subtly mocking how condescending Veyils has been in past two days, I do want to underline the difference between that evasive approach and the "other" discussion method with the latter example names I've used.
(Please note that, I still haven't said anything about Twist's mechanics at all. Just observing the general behavior and vocally reflecting on it, so far.)
In my very subjective and highly personal opinion the following are examples of:
Bad envoying. You reach me about succumb/I read your report regarding succumb and you want to nerf its scaling, because it's ridiculous in numbers. I acknowledge it's ridiculous, but I counter propose it's the Hexes that's faulty and not Succumb itself. Because you know, healing and succumb or astrology doesn't even work together. And that makes sense too, right? If you could get less affs into the succumb it'd be toned down graciously.
But in all honesty, I've managed to direct the course of discussion away from the succumb's numbers and we're after Hexes now. A skillset that isn't as harmful in the "most" other classtypes in the game.
Good envoying. I read your report and the intentions to nerf my Succumb. That sucks, especially considering it's my favorite skill and I very well know that the skill itself doesn't add much to hinder an opponent for example, in comparison to its equivalents. So I give you food for thought and underline that if you somehow bring its numbers in line with those equivalents, you'll also make it a lot less viable because of the lack of access to that hinder. If we can get an agreement and a perfect solution after that, great. If not, welp, it happens. Admins can decide what's best for their game after our inputs.
And again from my observations, certain envoys have been very actively using the evasive and defensive approaches. That's mostly why I wanted to highlight it and now with this post I want to speak on where I believe they lead us to. It's fine if I get scapegoated for it, I don't mind as it won't be the first time, I'll lurk back into my cave and the daily routine of not caring though. Good luck, have fun.
"Oh the year was 453CE, how I wish I was in Serenwilde now... aletter of marque come from the regent to the scummiest aethership I ever seen, gods damn them all...I was told we'd cruise the void for auronidion and dust, we'd fire no turrets, shed no tears.. now I'm a broken man on a Hallifax tier, the last of Saz's privateers."
I don't really have a dog in this fight, but if Glomdoring thinks their skills aren't strong, they're lying to themselves. They, above any other org in the game, have an incredible synergy among their guilds: bleeding/mana reduction, and ways to use it. Their songs work on this, their kills are primarily mana based, their skills cause mana loss/increase mana loss/bleeding, they have passives to keep you from regenerating mana, or cause you to need to use skills that use mana. No other org in the game has this level of synergy or focus.
If you ask older, experienced players and combatants what class they would take if they wanted to be a griefer and get solo kills on a majority of the playerbase, a majority of them would either pick Shadowdancer or mention it. It's no concidence that in the fights yesterday, most of the Glomdoring fighters were Shadowdancers, with a Harbinger assisting them. I believe I saw back to back toadings, with one pair within two seconds of each other.
Once again, I'm neither an amazing combatant nor an envoy. I probably never will be. I'm just throwing in my two cents, and I'd urge all of you to calm down and quit taking being beaten in combat so personally.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Comments
EDIT: Do you mean only having minorsixth and other song effects (like NightFade for example) proc them?
Oh no sorry I maybe didn't explain my point very well.
I mean making it so the aurics effects no longer ticked on non bard skills.
Eg if I lash you with mana barbs lash no longer triggers the mana barbs and you no longer take health damage from it. But a bard who hits you with M6 will still trigger the mana barbs and you'll take mana and health damage for example.
Maybe reduced effectiveness. Mana barbs only does 1/3 or 50% of the mana drain from non bard stuff.
Envoys should be speaking to each other, especially those in other organizations if they are planning on envoying those skills. That's expected and I'm not sure why it's being argued that it should be ok to not talk about it. Every envoy is going to have a natural bias, and the way to avoid that is to work together with your fellow envoys. By not reaching out to those envoys, you are working off your own bias instead of working towards a common solution that benefits everyone and solves the problem while not over doing it.
Just want to comment on this real quick.
I don't believe "we already nerfed it many times" to be a valid defence against further nerfs. Even if nothing else about the game has changed, which it has, a skill or class can still be overpowered following multiple nerfs.
(again, posted with the logger's permission).
Just my opinion, I literally can't afford to stress out over this game right now.
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
Your doing it wrong
Just looking at my side of the log. You enter the room. Mal starts to meld up. Minkahmet starts to throw haegl runes at tyamit. Faleron and Aramel attempt a scissor. kick Ejdhera hits Tarken with his combos. It sort of seemed like there wasn't any focus to the targets in that inital fight so you kinda gave us free reign for all of us to just attack you unhindered.
Scissorflip is still roomwide hinder, probably better than everyone hitting one person in this one context.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
I can just say again, am really shocked at the behavior everybody's displaying. I thought what I was offering was something that nearly every skill has: a way to reset the state of the attack outside of combat.
It's really frustrating when people always assume you're just out to attack them.
Combat and envoy is one of the most frustrating things of late and that report ( and the blow up here on the forum ) is just a show of that.
Yes while the intention started off as a simple request the comments from certain parties turned into an attack and a request to nerf the skill to the ground. I think it was hijacked partially because one of the solutions would be a large change and nerf to how the skill works in combat instead of just a way to reset the state of the attack outside of combat. Some folks in the comments have gone far far too far I agree and I think this is part of the reason why Its generally considered good ettiquette to disccuse and speak with your fellow envoys before attempting to nerf a skill. Like I said in the comments solution 2 and 3 would work fine with minor tweaks but solution one just simple does not work for a variety of reasons.
If you look at other reports in a similar vein, bonds, angknek and so on you'll find there was a lot of discussion before hand so when the report was put out no one felt blindsided and the solutions that put in are generally considered well thought out by everyone involved.
I suppose its a case of live and learn for next time. We have an envoy channel and a message board for these types of discussions and really you shouldn't shy away from speaking to other envoys.
<br>---[Xenthos on 12/4 @ 03:12 writes]:<br>Anyways, looking at the comments now, it's pretty obvious it's a pileon on "skill we don't like that <span>our enemies have so we need to take it away," rather than an actual real game balance concern. </span>Honestly? This is happening because we've lost Shuyin, Shedrin and Wobou to inactivity or whatever other reason there's. I didn't always agree with them but they managed to reach a general consensus and fruits of their work were often appreciated from both sides and it did reflect a vision for everyone in the game. And the righteous self-adjustments they did, for the skillsets they "own" were just icings on the cake. (which often was simply toning down/cutting out what didn't make sense.)
-Kilian
What brought that report over the edge was the comments, and that's the exact same thing that is happening in this new report too. The difference is that Wobou spent the time trying to get buy-in, which is why the report itself didn't feel like a hatchet job initially (as it went on, with comments shaping perception of the report and intent, things like "massive advantage" and "overly large" in the problem set did end up being problematic though).
I will note that in the Bonds report you mentioned, that 1) Wobou discussed it with Glom envoys prior to finishing it (as noted in the comments) and 2) That even with the above comment, Xenthos did agree with some of the solutions (since you were singling him out there).
@Aeldra - I was not trying to insult you or point any fingers, so please do not take it that way. I am speaking in general terms about how the envoy process should work. Everybody knows that it's not perfect, but as long as Lusternia strives to keep unique classes, skills and strategies, it will not be perfect. When envoying other orgs skills, especially if those are nerfs, the report should be considered very carefully and the envoys that use the skill should be involved. At the very least, if you cannot come to an agreement, you can still say you at least tried, nobody can feel blindsided.
I think we have very good envoys currently, who are in generally willing to work together to find common ground and solutions.
Regarding twist, I want to note that every Glom envoy in the report in question proposed or supported a solution to the stated problem. This genuinely did not need to be difficult/irritating for anyone involved. We use twist every day: we know how potent persisting shadows are. I'm not sure where the idea that our envoys will stonewall needed changes is coming from, to be honest.
As for twist strength, personally (potentially controversial opinion) I feel most of the guardians are in a terrible state and is why most people fighting at the moment are rolling chem/bard outside of Glom/Gaudi/Seren. That's not an opinion I'm going to argue as its obviously very subjective, but its the one I hold presently.
Lately though, am seen very much north/south level conversation, or maybe i'm just worn out and not seeing it when it's not north/south, it's entirely possible.
@tarken I agree that it wouldn't needed to be difficult, people comment their opinion on it, I adjust problem/solutions as people feel the need for it to adjust it so they're fine with it... problem solved. Or at least that was how I hoped it would go.
Next time? I'm not sure yet. I suppose there are some lessons learned, but honestly, ... it's stuff like this that makes it hard to be part of the game community, at least for me. Sure, some of it is probably my fault, but... just take a step back and read that report again. It's still horrifying to me.
Maybe an envoy discord or irc chat room type thing would do the job and make folks lives easier for quick discussions.
The envoy system is not perfect. On any side. Players often bring things up out of frustration more than an actual need for balance, or draw conclusions off faulty or incomplete data. Administrators, in an attempt to limit this, sometimes make mistakes in our decisions (and I have generally been happy to discuss and explain where we are coming from when this happens, and have changed decisions I have made based on this in the past). And in the end, as a conflict-driven game, the human element slips in in the form of bias or outright hostility.
My current goal is to avoid leading the envoy system to a point wherein, as back in 2009-2011, we had what people referred to the envoy wars. I am very familiar, firsthand, what it was like to be an envoy during this timeframe, and it was not pleasant. I am fairly displeased to see that we are slipping back toward this, and I am unsure I can watch this occur without taking some of the blame myself for what is happening.
Regardless, I am also in a unique position to put a stop to it. I will be, as soon as I find the time (which comes below a few accessibility changes I need to implement ASAP and my real life right now), I will be enacting a review of the current envoy system (and all current envoys) to see what changes need to be made, especially since there was a major change to the system four months ago.
I will also be seeking to enact public townhalls on a few major subjects, and if I can manage to do this, I will be enacting them and announcing the dates and times.
In the meantime though, I will say this: The personal attacks and outright hostility on these forums is not going to be tolerated. If it continues further, I will be strictly moderating it, including closing this thread and forum-jailing if need be. The majority of the people speaking here are adults, and there is no need for us to be acting like gradeschoolers.
This message has been sponsored by Hospital drugs sedating us poor humans 25 ccs at a time
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
I honestly think my post was misinterpreted as I wasn't trying to paint all your envoys out there, of course. Nor was I trying to insult any of them. But I wanted to underline how defensive and evasive they can get sometimes. I've nothing personal against @Xenthos, I'm sure he knows it. Yet I decided to openly use him as an example, since what I've copied is written down at a report which everyone else also has access to read, I found no harm in doing so. I found him being extremely defensive back then, now I find him being very defensive today. A similarity he doesn't object though he does have his reasons as elaborated above in his posts.
Unless I missed a changelog/announce post about it, I still hold the right to have my own opinions and criticize others' as long as it's not insulting, don't I?
However, asides from subtly mocking how condescending Veyils has been in past two days, I do want to underline the difference between that evasive approach and the "other" discussion method with the latter example names I've used.
(Please note that, I still haven't said anything about Twist's mechanics at all. Just observing the general behavior and vocally reflecting on it, so far.)
In my very subjective and highly personal opinion the following are examples of:
Bad envoying. You reach me about succumb/I read your report regarding succumb and you want to nerf its scaling, because it's ridiculous in numbers. I acknowledge it's ridiculous, but I counter propose it's the Hexes that's faulty and not Succumb itself. Because you know, healing and succumb or astrology doesn't even work together. And that makes sense too, right? If you could get less affs into the succumb it'd be toned down graciously.
But in all honesty, I've managed to direct the course of discussion away from the succumb's numbers and we're after Hexes now. A skillset that isn't as harmful in the "most" other classtypes in the game.
Good envoying. I read your report and the intentions to nerf my Succumb. That sucks, especially considering it's my favorite skill and I very well know that the skill itself doesn't add much to hinder an opponent for example, in comparison to its equivalents. So I give you food for thought and underline that if you somehow bring its numbers in line with those equivalents, you'll also make it a lot less viable because of the lack of access to that hinder. If we can get an agreement and a perfect solution after that, great. If not, welp, it happens. Admins can decide what's best for their game after our inputs.
And again from my observations, certain envoys have been very actively using the evasive and defensive approaches.
That's mostly why I wanted to highlight it and now with this post I want to speak on where I believe they lead us to.
It's fine if I get scapegoated for it, I don't mind as it won't be the first time, I'll lurk back into my cave and the daily routine of not caring though. Good luck, have fun.
-Kilian
If you ask older, experienced players and combatants what class they would take if they wanted to be a griefer and get solo kills on a majority of the playerbase, a majority of them would either pick Shadowdancer or mention it. It's no concidence that in the fights yesterday, most of the Glomdoring fighters were Shadowdancers, with a Harbinger assisting them. I believe I saw back to back toadings, with one pair within two seconds of each other.
Once again, I'm neither an amazing combatant nor an envoy. I probably never will be. I'm just throwing in my two cents, and I'd urge all of you to calm down and quit taking being beaten in combat so personally.