I don't really have a dog in this fight, but if Glomdoring thinks their skills aren't strong, they're lying to themselves. They, above any other org in the game, have an incredible synergy among their guilds: bleeding/mana reduction, and ways to use it. Their songs work on this, their kills are primarily mana based, their skills cause mana loss/increase mana loss/bleeding, they have passives to keep you from regenerating mana, or cause you to need to use skills that use mana. No other org in the game has this level of synergy or focus.
If you ask older, experienced players and combatants what class they would take if they wanted to be a griefer and get solo kills on a majority of the playerbase, a majority of them would either pick Shadowdancer or mention it. It's no concidence that in the fights yesterday, most of the Glomdoring fighters were Shadowdancers, with a Harbinger assisting them. I believe I saw back to back toadings, with one pair within two seconds of each other.
Once again, I'm neither an amazing combatant nor an envoy. I probably never will be. I'm just throwing in my two cents, and I'd urge all of you to calm down and quit taking beaten in combat so personally.
I find myself nodding and applauding at this, as it rings true. Now, to note, I don't care for dying over and over, but unfortunately with flocking toward a method that doesnt require much effort, but yet at the same time still have the faceroll ease to it, makes the Lusternia community quite boring(as usual) since it puts off any enjoyment one may want in that atmosphere of Lusternia, to which from my point of view, is a form of taking advantage of it and griefing others consistently, even a few times where some aren't known for combat, are griefed with it and having to hear and try to offer some sort of apology in hopes that doesn't sour their mood further into not playing again. Personally, I've gotten to a point rather quickly to not even bother responding to the daily Hartstone aspect raids. and encourage the commune to be mindful of being on ethereal side of Seren or not bother coming to defense.
Now, that's just me, and again I don't mind repeated deaths, but I see there's almost 0 chance of gaining any ground with that mechanic that no other org can even match to the tenth degree that they can. So, in essence, for the enjoyment of the community that takes part in this, envoys should be reaching out to each other and address the imbalance that is glaring. Though perhaps, in my point of view, taking advantage of it will likely continue for quite some time to come. So uh... Let's make Lusternia great again? Or perhaps I should look into Achaea and enjoy the nature of the people in their own nations relying on their own people(for the most part anyway, lol)
@Minkahmet raiding conflict is something that could really do with an update or change I'd agree. Conflict and combat is such a big part of this game and I do hear a lot of complaints from players in every org about how conflict and PvP just doesn't happen enough.
Part of this is how infrequent conflict events are once a week, every two weeks etc.
Outside of these infrequent events we have domoths and raids. Raids have no real goal or effect other than basically going "hi I'm here to fight, who's coming to play?" then you skirmish and fight until one side gets bored/wins overwhelming.
I really think there should be something else conflict wise that people can participate in. The current conflict events are just too infrequent and easy to miss.
@Minkahmet raiding conflict is something that could really do with an update or change I'd agree. Conflict and combat is such a big part of this game and I do hear a lot of complaints from players in every org about how conflict and PvP just doesn't happen enough.
Part of this is how infrequent conflict events are once a week, every two weeks etc.
Outside of these infrequent events we have domoths and raids. Raids have no real goal or effect other than basically going "hi I'm here to fight, who's coming to play?" then you skirmish and fight until one side gets bored/wins overwhelming.
I really think there should be something else conflict wise that people can participate in. The current conflict events are just too infrequent and easy to miss.
One of the things that's been mentioned in the discord... is a wish for a more neutral pvp ground. But I think it's a good point about a need for goals too...
@Minkahmet raiding conflict is something that could really do with an update or change I'd agree. Conflict and combat is such a big part of this game and I do hear a lot of complaints from players in every org about how conflict and PvP just doesn't happen enough.
Part of this is how infrequent conflict events are once a week, every two weeks etc.
Outside of these infrequent events we have domoths and raids. Raids have no real goal or effect other than basically going "hi I'm here to fight, who's coming to play?" then you skirmish and fight until one side gets bored/wins overwhelming.
I really think there should be something else conflict wise that people can participate in. The current conflict events are just too infrequent and easy to miss.
One of the things that's been mentioned in the discord... is a wish for a more neutral pvp ground. But I think it's a good point about a need for goals too...
Yea ideally some sort of neutralish area with a point to go in there.
There was an idea about an arena like construct that only a limited number of people could go into at once and have a kind of mini war tourny.
@Veyils Has there already been a conversation about speeding up the regularity of revolts and flares? I spend more time logged in than I care to admit and I still manage to constantly miss these events.
1
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
If you ask older, experienced players and combatants what class they would take if they wanted to be a griefer and get solo kills on a *majority of the playerbase, a majority of them would either pick Shadowdancer or mention it.
*because the majority of the playerbase is bad at pk.
Red herring. A older, experienced combatant can pick up a lot of classes and beat the majority of the playerbase. The ability to win against most people has little to do with how good a class actually is.
For the record, I could beat most players with meldbomb and barrier, and that has a remarkably inefficient setup. As the player who introduced the world to twist griefing, I would suggest TK pyrochem if you just want to grief randoms. Much better at trapping and blowing up.
Glom has a solid synergy. The weakness is it all revolves around a Shadowdancer being available to toad. Take out or hinder the SD, and the synergy is for naught. The lynchpin for the entire strategy revolves around a single skill. Eliminate it from the equation.
Man you red herring'd while calling a red herring.
Forcing the group to primary the SD when SD has flight/drink and potentially healing is a huge win for Glom too, but lets not go down this road?
If I wanted the most OP skillsets I'd go Glom or Celest. It's honestly fairly close, edge to Glom for easymode synergy though for sure.
Take great care of yourselves and each other.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited September 2017
Target priority is a red herring? I'm genuinely amused. I thought it was a central theme of PK across all orgs. Did we just do it wrong for years and years?! No one told us we were winning incorrectly.
Target the people and/or classes that present the biggest threat. Group combat 101. You're often even forced to primary a target you don't necessarily want to! Do you think I always wanted to focus a pit warrior first? Big nope, homeboy hitting me in the face with shofa hurt more but the long win means pit warrior goes first.
If you think that's a red herring, I imagine that's your biggest problem. Not OP glom skillz being so much better than everyone. (disclaimer: Glom skills are good, not saying the synergy game isn't strong, but sometimes it really is you.)
I was more trying to point out that the killiest, and most necessary to kill, is also the hardest to kill. Protecting your groups squishies by forcing the enemy to try to kill you while you have all the survival tools of an SD is really good.
I would love to be SD and have everyone trying to kill me. With flight and healing I'm pretty sure they never would, and I'd be just a big shield for my whole group.
I don't know why you're trying to act as if I don't understand target priority, and are talking down to me like that. I think you just missed my point.
Take great care of yourselves and each other.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited September 2017
Speaking from experience, you can definitely still die. All about how good the opposing group is at lock down. Flight isn't foolproof, I wrote the report for its current incarnation after all. Target priority isn't always ideal and who dies the quickest. That's absolutely not unique to Glomdoring.
Only because you said my argument about target priority was a red herring, and my natural response is sarcasm.
If you ask older, experienced players and combatants what class they would take if they wanted to be a griefer and get solo kills on a *majority of the playerbase, a majority of them would either pick Shadowdancer or mention it.
Glom has a solid synergy. The weakness is it all revolves around a Shadowdancer being available to toad. Take out or hinder the SD, and the synergy is for naught. The lynchpin for the entire strategy revolves around a single skill. Eliminate it from the equation.
Easier to complain than improve, etc etc.
So... what do you do when there's 3+ SDs?
beep
1
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited September 2017
Focus on the smallest one first. Have a plan for when people inevitably die. Same way you handle multiple aeon spammers, or multiple bards coordinating deathsong, or multiples of anything that will murder you quickly.
I've honestly never seen a time where 3+ SDs pk'd at the same time, they get a little redundant after a certain saturation. I imagine you could tie toad to a held shadow prerequisite with some fiddling around with the skills and throw something in for moonies for parity (if necessary) if mass SD squads are becoming a thing.
Focus on the smallest one first. Have a plan for when people inevitably die. Same way you handle multiple aeon spammers, or multiple bards coordinating deathsong, or multiples of anything that will murder you quickly.
3+ SDs would generally mean one of two scenarios. Small/medium fight where a significant portion are SDs to the point of redundancy and Super Glom Synergy is less of an issue because everyone is just a wiccan OR big zerg fight where you can just mass damage spam anyone so who cares.
I'd say 2 solid SD combatants with arties/experience and a backup squad harb/nekotai/runist is where you're going to run into a tough spot. Ultimately, in a world of infinite combinations to account for, I can't tell ya for sure what the universal plan of action is.
I imagine you could tie toad to a held shadow prerequisite with some fiddling around with the skills and throw something in for moonies for parity if mass SD squads are becoming a thing.
I would say it definitely seems easier to deal with in a large group. Small/medium groups, they don't seem to lose much to redundancy, which I think is where a lot of the complaints come from...
2~3SD+harb is a thing right now, though (or sometimes just 100% SDs), and that's a 6~8s TTK that also applies a lot of CC...
beep
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Ah, well that's new. Envoy tying the toad to the SD somehow, a la Celestine and inquisition/nihilist and sacrifice/etc.
A few questions after a little time with the wiki...
1. Could the current batch of SDs move to another org with 50% instants and do essentially the same thing? 2. Why do some classes have to meet extra conditions? eg 50%+affs/wounds/etc, or must have used some setup ability originating from the same caster... 3. Why do some other classes just kill you for getting to 50%?
They could drain your mana even faster if they moved to Serenwilde for MDs, but they would have to give up on all their hinder and utility abilities, if they did
"Oh the year was 453CE, how I wish I was in Serenwilde now... aletter of marque come from the regent to the scummiest aethership I ever seen, gods damn them all...I was told we'd cruise the void for auronidion and dust, we'd fire no turrets, shed no tears.. now I'm a broken man on a Hallifax tier, the last of Saz's privateers."
The only way for me to be tankier to mana kills is to go mugwump demi+. Yarith supported a lot there (as did the meld), but I'm usually reckless for most succumb kills so this was the best I could find on short notice and hopefully it should illustrate some of the numbers you're looking for. You could trade a second moondancer in instead of institute (with hexes) to improve toad uptime and retain the aeon power. One major factor Glom has going for it is bleed drain (and nsb, of course). Whether you feel universal drain via mental affs under succumb is equivalent (or even a reasonable comparrison) I'll leave up to you. Personally I don't think that series of events was unreasonable - I got caught in aeon under blackout at a bad time and should've bit the bullet and risked green with my survival window being that small. I doubt it would have helped, but you never know!
A few questions after a little time with the wiki...
1. Could the current batch of SDs move to another org with 50% instants and do essentially the same thing? 2. Why do some classes have to meet extra conditions? eg 50%+affs/wounds/etc, or must have used some setup ability originating from the same caster... 3. Why do some other classes just kill you for getting to 50%?
1. Moondancers do drain mana quicker and stronger than anyone in the game right now. (Aside from dreambeasts but they are getting a nerf) Two cordinated unhindered Moondancers with hexes would have you toaded in the first to second standard balance. Three unhindered cordinated Shadowdancers will generaly have you toaded within the first four to six standard balances depending on the targets mana.
Three cordinated bards would be killing anyone quicker than any class at all in the game. Some bards would do it quicker like Celestine bards for example with their better damage routes.
2. and 3. Can't just look at the instant kill itself. You need to look at what else the class can do to get to it. Some classes have more than one way of killing as well. Its a complicated question your asking but in general the simple answer is that you balance classes not individual skills. Some classes have much stronger defenses and thus dont get as good an offense. Some classes don't actually work right now and need fixing, their instant kills are potentially broken from the overhaul etc.
The biggest difference to me is that SDs can do all of the crazy mana drain while doing some of the best hindering at the same time. This is what makes them so much more of a threat in small skirmishes than MDs, even if MDs can ultimately drain more mana.
Then they can also move 2 rooms for 1 power, essentially a get out of jail free card in group fights. Flight is stopped by breaking the legs, but what else?
For me, SDs are a perfect storm of both huge things and little things: stopping mana regen in a room for everyone but them, easy escapes, (I don't know how potent Drink is post-overhaul), Twist providing both mana drain and hinder, banshee, lash, preventing sap from occurring and preventing flying (the latter of which is w/e)...and all of that without taking tertiaries into account. Similarly, it doesn't matter if the entirety of Glomdoring hinges on Toadcurse if there's more than one competent Shadowdancer, plus REFRESH POWER, plus lucidian demi+ keeping them well within 8p.
Oh, and, not to mention the metric ton of artifacts these particular SDs have. If you try to focus them first, then you're going to have a very bad time. Believe me, after months of fighting them, it's a hugely fruitless endeavor.
The biggest difference to me is that SDs can do all of the crazy mana drain while doing some of the best hindering at the same time. This is what makes them so much more of a threat in small skirmishes than MDs, even if MDs can ultimately drain more mana.
A Moondancer with hexes can hit with succumb to drain huge amounts of mana. Then use wane and hexes to do the double asthma/anorexa wane combo to guarente someone is hit with aeon/asthma/anorexia. That's pretty good hindering and mana drain at the same time.
I can count -maybe- 2-3 times that I have ever used flight. I always just forget about it and go for another bail. Tarken said the same when I asked him. The 4s EQ is a pretty big turn off.
Comments
Now, that's just me, and again I don't mind repeated deaths, but I see there's almost 0 chance of gaining any ground with that mechanic that no other org can even match to the tenth degree that they can. So, in essence, for the enjoyment of the community that takes part in this, envoys should be reaching out to each other and address the imbalance that is glaring. Though perhaps, in my point of view, taking advantage of it will likely continue for quite some time to come. So uh... Let's make Lusternia great again? Or perhaps I should look into Achaea and enjoy the nature of the people in their own nations relying on their own people(for the most part anyway, lol)
<a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.lusternia.com/banner/minkahmet.jpg">https://www.lusternia.com/banner/minkahmet.jpg</a>No longer 'off topic'.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
Part of this is how infrequent conflict events are once a week, every two weeks etc.
Outside of these infrequent events we have domoths and raids. Raids have no real goal or effect other than basically going "hi I'm here to fight, who's coming to play?" then you skirmish and fight until one side gets bored/wins overwhelming.
I really think there should be something else conflict wise that people can participate in. The current conflict events are just too infrequent and easy to miss.
Yea ideally some sort of neutralish area with a point to go in there.
There was an idea about an arena like construct that only a limited number of people could go into at once and have a kind of mini war tourny.
*because the majority of the playerbase is bad at pk.
Red herring. A older, experienced combatant can pick up a lot of classes and beat the majority of the playerbase. The ability to win against most people has little to do with how good a class actually is.
For the record, I could beat most players with meldbomb and barrier, and that has a remarkably inefficient setup. As the player who introduced the world to twist griefing, I would suggest TK pyrochem if you just want to grief randoms. Much better at trapping and blowing up.
Glom has a solid synergy. The weakness is it all revolves around a Shadowdancer being available to toad. Take out or hinder the SD, and the synergy is for naught. The lynchpin for the entire strategy revolves around a single skill. Eliminate it from the equation.
Easier to complain than improve, etc etc.
Forcing the group to primary the SD when SD has flight/drink and potentially healing is a huge win for Glom too, but lets not go down this road?
If I wanted the most OP skillsets I'd go Glom or Celest. It's honestly fairly close, edge to Glom for easymode synergy though for sure.
Target the people and/or classes that present the biggest threat. Group combat 101. You're often even forced to primary a target you don't necessarily want to! Do you think I always wanted to focus a pit warrior first? Big nope, homeboy hitting me in the face with shofa hurt more but the long win means pit warrior goes first.
If you think that's a red herring, I imagine that's your biggest problem. Not OP glom skillz being so much better than everyone. (disclaimer: Glom skills are good, not saying the synergy game isn't strong, but sometimes it really is you.)
I would love to be SD and have everyone trying to kill me. With flight and healing I'm pretty sure they never would, and I'd be just a big shield for my whole group.
I don't know why you're trying to act as if I don't understand target priority, and are talking down to me like that. I think you just missed my point.
Only because you said my argument about target priority was a red herring, and my natural response is sarcasm.
So... what do you do when there's 3+ SDs?
I've honestly never seen a time where 3+ SDs pk'd at the same time, they get a little redundant after a certain saturation. I imagine you could tie toad to a held shadow prerequisite with some fiddling around with the skills and throw something in for moonies for parity (if necessary) if mass SD squads are becoming a thing.
2~3SD+harb is a thing right now, though (or sometimes just 100% SDs), and that's a 6~8s TTK that also applies a lot of CC...
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/8VhnSd6s
A sacrifice buys about 6 seconds.
And for all the complaints about aeon... keeping it off people doesn't seem to do much:
Does feel more and more like it's not particularly worth showing up to Glom heavy fights...
The point your log is referencing. Just a lot of banshee and haegl. There were only three of us there at that point.
1. Could the current batch of SDs move to another org with 50% instants and do essentially the same thing?
2. Why do some classes have to meet extra conditions? eg 50%+affs/wounds/etc, or must have used some setup ability originating from the same caster...
3. Why do some other classes just kill you for getting to 50%?
-Kilian
Simple answer: Yes.
Less simple answer: I really don't want to start a succumb debate, but here you go:
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/4uoYpk8m
The only way for me to be tankier to mana kills is to go mugwump demi+. Yarith supported a lot there (as did the meld), but I'm usually reckless for most succumb kills so this was the best I could find on short notice and hopefully it should illustrate some of the numbers you're looking for. You could trade a second moondancer in instead of institute (with hexes) to improve toad uptime and retain the aeon power. One major factor Glom has going for it is bleed drain (and nsb, of course). Whether you feel universal drain via mental affs under succumb is equivalent (or even a reasonable comparrison) I'll leave up to you. Personally I don't think that series of events was unreasonable - I got caught in aeon under blackout at a bad time and should've bit the bullet and risked green with my survival window being that small. I doubt it would have helped, but you never know!
1. Moondancers do drain mana quicker and stronger than anyone in the game right now. (Aside from dreambeasts but they are getting a nerf) Two cordinated unhindered Moondancers with hexes would have you toaded in the first to second standard balance. Three unhindered cordinated Shadowdancers will generaly have you toaded within the first four to six standard balances depending on the targets mana.
Three cordinated bards would be killing anyone quicker than any class at all in the game. Some bards would do it quicker like Celestine bards for example with their better damage routes.
2. and 3. Can't just look at the instant kill itself. You need to look at what else the class can do to get to it. Some classes have more than one way of killing as well. Its a complicated question your asking but in general the simple answer is that you balance classes not individual skills. Some classes have much stronger defenses and thus dont get as good an offense. Some classes don't actually work right now and need fixing, their instant kills are potentially broken from the overhaul etc.
For me, SDs are a perfect storm of both huge things and little things: stopping mana regen in a room for everyone but them, easy escapes, (I don't know how potent Drink is post-overhaul), Twist providing both mana drain and hinder, banshee, lash, preventing sap from occurring and preventing flying (the latter of which is w/e)...and all of that without taking tertiaries into account. Similarly, it doesn't matter if the entirety of Glomdoring hinges on Toadcurse if there's more than one competent Shadowdancer, plus REFRESH POWER, plus lucidian demi+ keeping them well within 8p.
Oh, and, not to mention the metric ton of artifacts these particular SDs have. If you try to focus them first, then you're going to have a very bad time. Believe me, after months of fighting them, it's a hugely fruitless endeavor.
A Moondancer with hexes can hit with succumb to drain huge amounts of mana. Then use wane and hexes to do the double asthma/anorexa wane combo to guarente someone is hit with aeon/asthma/anorexia. That's pretty good hindering and mana drain at the same time.