I'm going to put my vote on Ushaara as well, for more information. If I feel he is telling the truth sufficiently, I will remove it.
Vote: Ushaara
Avurekhos says, "Dylara's a PvP menace in my eyes, totes rekting face."
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable. Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.
Lot of the people voting for Ushaara seem to be indicating they're only voting for her in order to confirm that traitors may not be scum. And again I'm asking what does that actually do for us if Ushaara is town? We're gonna go from it's likely that we can't trust or distrust somebody based on role to, yep definitely can't distrust anybody based on role. Won't indicate anything about a potential cult and if they can only recruit traitors or if anybody is vulnerable to conversion.
I'm not sure exactly who, but I'm sure there must be some Soulless among the current lynch train if they haven't hammered the vote closed by now, and I'd rather play those odds. So for now I'll join Ushaara and Vote: Sylandra unless there's a better suggestion.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
You know, when I first started thinking of the possibility of stumping for this game, I thought a god sharding into a mortal race would be just about the most flavourful form of stumping possible. @Selenity! You are totally getting my hopes up and I am waaaay curious!
Ushaara has made a pretty bold move, and I am disinclined to punish it just yet. It might be he is putting up a flag to get attention from a cult head, but he's also the only publicly known of the Twelve at this time. If what he's saying is true, then he can be useful for baiting and can be blocked or whatever as might be deemed appropriate - the situation will get more complex if we discover another of the Twelve, in which case we might analyze the differences in their behaviour to that point.
Ushaara isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Opening a chance for people to catch him interacting with others in the night seems more useful than cutting him down in an instant.
Granted, we don't have much else to work with, so I can't blame people for wanting to jump down his throat either. Meh.
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
Ushaara isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Opening a chance for people to catch him interacting with others in the night seems more useful than cutting him down in an instant.
Granted, we don't have much else to work with, so I can't blame people for wanting to jump down his throat either. Meh.
I get what you're saying here, but I think this is a waste of resources. If Ushaara is actually town, and happens to be a Traitor, people will waste their night actions on him to try to confirm this. This is time that could be put to other uses, like catching a Soulless in the act. Don't think that's a useful trade-off, especially when it means lynching in the dark today compared to lynching with calculated intent.
And like you said, we don't have much else to work with. The lynch train on me even is just based on the fact I chose to vote for Ushaara, which as I stated, people of any alignment have good reason to do at this stage.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
I'll change my vote if it turns out we have any other leads worth following. From where I'm standing, this seems to be the best way to move the game forward. If you don't want to vote for Ushaara, then what is the plan? Do we have anything to discuss? I'm not fond of sitting around waiting and doing nothing.
I think we're waiting for a chance for Ush to talk again. Having as much as possible to compare what he said to what is actually revealed is at least reasonable.
If you have no good suspects, and you don't actually know the numbers of each group, then you are just helping mafia by killing people randomly.
If you think Ushaara is lying then voting for him makes sense, but it sounds like most of you are working under the assumption he is telling the truth but there is a slight possibility he is lying, so let's just make sure in the most violent and irreversible way possible?
A no lynch is a wasted day for town. When you don't lynch, you leave all the power in the hands of the killers. A lynch has at least a chance to kill scum, but scum's nightkill will never target themselves - do you get what I am saying? If you don't lynch, you can't kill scum, but scum will still kill town. Passive playing and waiting for the perfect situation before you kill someone is bad. Who cares if the target isn't guaranteed to be guilty? Someone has to die. Ushaara is the least random option we have, and failing any additional information, is our best option to lynch. Or would you prefer to draw names from a hat?
Honestly, not lynching day one is almost never the right move, but everyone on this forum is frustratingly obsessed with it so you're usually fighting a losing battle trying to do otherwise. Continuing to not lynch a second day in a row is something I won't accept or support, so of course I'm going to push for a lynch.
2
SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
How is watching a desirable cult convert a waste of resources? Why is killing someone who you think is probably town, not just helping the soulless?
If you are in such a rush to find out what happens next, then why aren't you pushing a no Lynch?
[...]
I am getting mighty suspicious here. Are you so eager to help the soulless?
If you have no good suspects, and you don't actually know the numbers of each group, then you are just helping mafia by killing people randomly.
If you think Ushaara is lying then voting for him makes sense, but it sounds like most of you are working under the assumption he is telling the truth but there is a slight possibility he is lying, so let's just make sure in the most violent and irreversible way possible?
So. There's some stuff to unpack here.
1) You're assuming that a cult is going to make a move on Ushaara tonight. Put yourself in a potential cult convert's shoes. Now tell me: Would you target Ushaara tonight? You wouldn't, precisely because you'd know people are going to check him out. So what would you do? You'd look elsewhere, feeling secure that the investigator, the watcher, the tracker, likely all kept their eyes peeled for Ushaara tonight. That is a waste of resources: it makes it easier for the mafia and the cult to predict what our most important people are doing.
2) @Phoebus already said why a no-lynch is a bad idea. They give us very little information, they are our only shot outside of a vigilante to kill a scum at any given point in time, and the more passive we are in the dayphase the harder it is to make correct choices at night. You know who benefits most from a war of attrition? Scum and third party. (If you gun for a no-lynch from Day 2 onward, I generally view that as very scummy behavior, so you've been warned.)
3) Lynching Ushaara isn't random. We've listed our reasons for lynching him many times, and whether or not you agree with them is your business. But to call it random is to deny the fact that this train choo-choo'd because someone raised their hand at Traitors Anonymous and declared they're a character who may or may not have tried the Fain Elixir Kool-Aid. We didn't pile on an unsuspecting person for no reason whatsoever, so don't act like that's what's happening.
4) Mafia is a violent game. If you wanna go about it as "let's be as nice as we can to everyone else to make sure we 100% give people the benefit of the doubt," then one day someone will make a bluff and you will fall for it and a Soviet spy is going to blow up everything you love. I have shamelessly been that person. Them's the breaks.
5) You're right! There is a possibility that Ushaara is lying! Let's discuss that, shall we? To start, let's look at this quote from Portius:
I basically agree with Sylandra and Yomoigu, but something else to consider. If Ushaara is town, he'd want to get his name out fairly early and associated with innocence. If he didn't, and it later got revealed by investigation, we would naturally assume that he was lying to cover up a traitor alignment.
Knowing that, a traitor Malmydia would also want to be the one to bring it up, so he could do the bluff under the best possible circumstances. So Ushaara's statement is pretty much useless without a lynch to confirm it.
Between value of information and scum having an OKish reason to claim, VOTE USHAARA.
So I'm very willing to believe in the Traitors starting out town like Ushaara says, but as Portius says, we have to remember it is possible that this is a bluff. And the fact so many of us (myself included) are willing to believe it shows that if it's a bluff, it's a very successful one. It's also one that you wouldn't make so early unless you believed you could back it up successfully for awhile.
Just because it's highly plausible that Ushaara is town doesn't mean it's necessarily true. Only mod-confirmation can guarantee that. That is what we're asking for. No more, no less.
I'm a bit surprised by how much backlash this route of lynch train has gotten, actually, in light of Falmiis's daypower suggesting Traitor-esque communication fields are in play. Wouldn't that imply an anti-town leaning for at least one Traitor? (I am still operating on the Fain cultleader converting via elixir theory, mind you, but my point is that it doesn't make the Traitors sound as innocent as they could be.)
Here's some related thoughts too: 1) If Ushaara is lying and is not town aligned, he might have people who are invested in him staying alive for their win condition. 2) Even if Ushaara is telling the truth, if there's a cultleader Fain in play, he knows that Malmydia is here, and she could potentially be a strong player if converted. If I were Fain, and I had the potential to convert people to my cult, I'd definitely want Ushaara alive, even if I didn't plan on converting him tonight. Or to be a resource-sponge, as I mentioned earlier in #1.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
Your logic is really questionable and reeks of WIFOM confusion. Our goal is to destroy the soulless, not questionable traitors. We don't even know if a traitor cult actually exists. You said our only way to kill soulless is by voting them off, yet you aren't claiming that Ushaara is soulless, you are claiming that he might one day become a traitor. So let's worry about traitors after we destroy the soulless.
You have been pushing people to vote quickly and to push the night phase as quickly as possible at every chance you get. You have been not willing to wait for us to hear from people who can give us more information, and now you are suggesting that we lynch somebody is you believe is the most likely town at this point in time, and might one day become a third party. Pulling all attention from actually looking for soulless to lynch.
It is not a waste of resources to watch someone who you think might be a convert or to investigate somebody who made a claim. Are you going to keep suggesting that we lynch people who make claims, instead of making use of any possible investigators?
We don't know the setup for the game right now, we don't even know if a cult actually exists.
We have other ways of finding out information, such as what Othero told us about Kethuru and Illith. There is no need to lynch Ushaara at this point in time, other than rushing and "lynching someone." That is why I said he is a random lynch. He isn't a threat now, and as you said he likely won't even become a threat tonight because the cult, if they exist, won't want to risk it.
I want us to hunt and destroy soulless and known threats, not to jump at shadows. Right now Ushaara is telling us that traditional traitors are not necessarily a threat, and the longer he stays unconverted the better, no? Personally, I wanted to wait another day or two so we could ask Lavinya about her earlier comments. We have another 4 days, we don't need to rush. I'd also like to hear more from Seleneity about her gut feeling about Lehkhi. To me, those would give us a lot more information than lynching someone whom most of us believes isn't actually lying.
1
SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
Haha, if you say so. I'm saying Traitors are something we should know more about, and if you want to learn more, there's only one surefire way to do so: lynching a Traitor. Sounds like you're not as curious about an Ushaara flip as I am, but you're pretty worked up about the fact that I'm willing to kill to learn things in this game, and you seem to enjoy misrepresenting my arguments.
If you want to push this lynch train on me, go ahead. But I repeat what I said earlier: we learn more from killing Ushaara than what you'd learn from killing me.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
If I want to learn about traitors, I will wait for an investigator to tell us that they discovered that somebody is a traitor.
0
SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
Investigators are fallible, bro. Investigator immunity is a thing. I've incorporated it in every game I've built.
And I can vouch for Silvanus using it in his game set-ups, because he gave me investigator immunity in the Los Alamos game. Investigators are not 100%. Mod-confirmations, however, are.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
Not to mention the investigator has to reveal themselves in order to share their results, which paints a massive target on their backs. We can't wait for investigator results before we lynch, it's as simple as that.
Like I suspected, you are arguing that the only way to know that somebody is town is to lynch them. This is perverse and will allow the soulless to easily while we go ahead and lynch everybody who volunteers information just so we get a mod confirmation.
According to you, we shouldn't investigate people because they might be wrong. We shouldn't watch people who we suspect of not being town, because then it's a waste of resources because of some WIFOM logic. Why you don't consider town members to be resources, which if needlessly lynched become wasted, I'm not sure.
What happens when we lynch Ushaara and he tells us the truth? Nothing. Except now anybody gets to claim a traitor god who is innocent.
Wouldn't you rather find out from other town aligned traitor gods, who can speak up and vouch that such a thing exists instead of lynching someone who you are mostly certain isn't soulless?
*to easily win while .. don't know how that word got eaten up...
0
SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
Wow, my "waste of resources" comment has really put a bee in your bonnet.
Here's a friendly reminder: if the mafia can predict what we're doing, they can kill and convert more successfully at night. That is what I mean by a waste of resources. For some reason this seems to bother you, that I care about whether or not mafia teams or cult converters can guess what our investigators, our doctors, our watchers, etc are doing. If they don't know what those roles are doing, then it increases the probability that anti-town people will get caught. This is about playing smart, not about crippling town gameplay.
Keeping Ushaara around means he's a magnet for townie powers out of a desire to solve the Traitor alignment mystery. That leaves a lot of other people vulnerable, or unobserved. Do you see why that might, potentially, possibly, be very bad for town? Do you?
I don't think you do.
For the millionth time, if we lynch Ushaara, we know at least whether or not Traitors can be town. Mod-confirmed. No doubt. No suspicion. Just knowledge! That's a win to me. This is literally the only way we get that kind of certainty. All your suggestions for confirming Ushaara otherwise have holes in them, and with something this important, I want to be as sure as I can be about the structure of the game. You keep talking about Ushaara like he's a regular old Elder God, when he's Malmydia. That makes me care much more about his role accuracy.
If you find that motive suspicious and would prefer to roll the die and see what falls with a much more random lynch, okie dokie. Knock yourself out. But the fact that you keep misrepresenting what I, specifically, am trying to accomplish with this lynch is getting old.
(Also, if you think a town-aligned Traitor besides Ushaara is going to speak up, look at the relative silence around you. They're not. Mainly because if they do, this whole conversation will shift dramatically to "which lynch target hurts town less." The people who want to know about a Traitor flip will still want to see a Traitor flip; they just might choose a different Traitor to lynch. We don't have access to their role sheet, so we can't necessarily trust what they're saying. I promise you, bluffs are real in this game. I have bluffed a lot in mafia. It is a definite possibility that people are lying to you, and you should always take people's claims with a grain of salt.)
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
if we lynch Ushaara, we know at least whether or not Traitors can be town. Mod-confirmed. No doubt. No suspicion. Just knowledge!
I am not misrepresenting your argument. You are just making false claims. The above-quoted argument is false. We will not know that Traitors can be town, we will know that Ushaara specifically is town. We will also know which role he actually has and if he was lying about anything or not. However, we will not know about any other Traitor god role. We will not learn anything that we can actually act upon. It does nothing for us. Every time somebody offers us information voluntarily, you will be making this same argument, and we will be in the same place. -That- is dangerous for us.
You don't know that Ushaara is Malmydia or not. It's not like he is claiming town after being caught. All his information was entirely voluntary.
Yes, nobody else is speaking up, because you have successfully pushed for people to either lynch someone or be quiet. So why, in such a hostile town environment would anyone bother to speak up?
Waiting for information from another source, other than lynching Ushaara, does not mean that the soulless know what our investigators are going to do tonight. Our investigators might check out Ushaara tonight or some other night. I'll let them play the WIFOM game, we don't have to get dragged into it. The point is, you keep claiming that the only way we get information is by lynching people, but that just isn't the case.
What meta information do we have of Malmydia before She was deemed a traitor? @Ushaara, do You have a power defence that could be made here? So far the only defence I've seen is that You shouldn't be lynched because You win when the Soulless are defeated. These forum haves are traditionally power heavy, You should remember the 'trust no survivors' rule that has popped up.
I think You are innocent, but We need some understanding. What can You give Us in your defence other than Your win condition, because I really want to believe You aren't lying.
Hiho everybody! Apologies for the delay, had to meet a deadline + GMT zone. Was expecting to come back dead the way it was looking when I left, so good to see still alive for now. Will get a longer post replying to stuff today.
Another thing that I will note, Wine in Front of Me (WIFOM) situations are annoying chicken contests that only benefit the Mafia in existing, because of reasons that Sylandra has outlined. They know who isn't mafia, why we don't. That chair? Could be mafia. That rabbit? Mafia. Sylandra? Well, We all know how that one turns out! How are they only benefitting the mafia? If the Mafia decide to go through with it, We have to supply the resources to have any hope of winning, and the other mafia get to have the rest of the night to (based off of last mafia) investigate, prep arson powers, or do any other number of crazy things that Silvanus can think of. If the Mafia decide to not go through with it? They still know who all the non-mafia are, and We're still as clueless as We were before unless someone gets lucky.
This message has mostly been for the benefit of people who may be confused as to WIFOM situations and/or are new players.
Comments
Vote: Ushaara
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable.
Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.
Ushaara - Yomoigu, Shaddus, Phoebus, Sylandra, Breandryn, Portius, Luce, Dylara (8)
Sylandra - Ushaara (1)
It takes 10 to lynch!
I'm not sure exactly who, but I'm sure there must be some Soulless among the current lynch train if they haven't hammered the vote closed by now, and I'd rather play those odds. So for now I'll join Ushaara and Vote: Sylandra unless there's a better suggestion.
Ushaara has made a pretty bold move, and I am disinclined to punish it just yet. It might be he is putting up a flag to get attention from a cult head, but he's also the only publicly known of the Twelve at this time. If what he's saying is true, then he can be useful for baiting and can be blocked or whatever as might be deemed appropriate - the situation will get more complex if we discover another of the Twelve, in which case we might analyze the differences in their behaviour to that point.
Ushaara isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Opening a chance for people to catch him interacting with others in the night seems more useful than cutting him down in an instant.
Granted, we don't have much else to work with, so I can't blame people for wanting to jump down his throat either. Meh.
And like you said, we don't have much else to work with. The lynch train on me even is just based on the fact I chose to vote for Ushaara, which as I stated, people of any alignment have good reason to do at this stage.
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
If you are in such a rush to find out what happens next, then why aren't you pushing a no Lynch?
I am getting mighty suspicious here. Are you so eager to help the soulless?
If you think Ushaara is lying then voting for him makes sense, but it sounds like most of you are working under the assumption he is telling the truth but there is a slight possibility he is lying, so let's just make sure in the most violent and irreversible way possible?
A no lynch is a wasted day for town. When you don't lynch, you leave all the power in the hands of the killers. A lynch has at least a chance to kill scum, but scum's nightkill will never target themselves - do you get what I am saying? If you don't lynch, you can't kill scum, but scum will still kill town. Passive playing and waiting for the perfect situation before you kill someone is bad. Who cares if the target isn't guaranteed to be guilty? Someone has to die. Ushaara is the least random option we have, and failing any additional information, is our best option to lynch. Or would you prefer to draw names from a hat?
Honestly, not lynching day one is almost never the right move, but everyone on this forum is frustratingly obsessed with it so you're usually fighting a losing battle trying to do otherwise. Continuing to not lynch a second day in a row is something I won't accept or support, so of course I'm going to push for a lynch.
So. There's some stuff to unpack here.
1) You're assuming that a cult is going to make a move on Ushaara tonight. Put yourself in a potential cult convert's shoes. Now tell me: Would you target Ushaara tonight? You wouldn't, precisely because you'd know people are going to check him out. So what would you do? You'd look elsewhere, feeling secure that the investigator, the watcher, the tracker, likely all kept their eyes peeled for Ushaara tonight. That is a waste of resources: it makes it easier for the mafia and the cult to predict what our most important people are doing.
2) @Phoebus already said why a no-lynch is a bad idea. They give us very little information, they are our only shot outside of a vigilante to kill a scum at any given point in time, and the more passive we are in the dayphase the harder it is to make correct choices at night. You know who benefits most from a war of attrition? Scum and third party. (If you gun for a no-lynch from Day 2 onward, I generally view that as very scummy behavior, so you've been warned.)
3) Lynching Ushaara isn't random. We've listed our reasons for lynching him many times, and whether or not you agree with them is your business. But to call it random is to deny the fact that this train choo-choo'd because someone raised their hand at Traitors Anonymous and declared they're a character who may or may not have tried the Fain Elixir Kool-Aid. We didn't pile on an unsuspecting person for no reason whatsoever, so don't act like that's what's happening.
4) Mafia is a violent game. If you wanna go about it as "let's be as nice as we can to everyone else to make sure we 100% give people the benefit of the doubt," then one day someone will make a bluff and you will fall for it and a Soviet spy is going to blow up everything you love. I have shamelessly been that person. Them's the breaks.
5) You're right! There is a possibility that Ushaara is lying! Let's discuss that, shall we? To start, let's look at this quote from Portius: So I'm very willing to believe in the Traitors starting out town like Ushaara says, but as Portius says, we have to remember it is possible that this is a bluff. And the fact so many of us (myself included) are willing to believe it shows that if it's a bluff, it's a very successful one. It's also one that you wouldn't make so early unless you believed you could back it up successfully for awhile.
Just because it's highly plausible that Ushaara is town doesn't mean it's necessarily true. Only mod-confirmation can guarantee that. That is what we're asking for. No more, no less.
I'm a bit surprised by how much backlash this route of lynch train has gotten, actually, in light of Falmiis's daypower suggesting Traitor-esque communication fields are in play. Wouldn't that imply an anti-town leaning for at least one Traitor? (I am still operating on the Fain cultleader converting via elixir theory, mind you, but my point is that it doesn't make the Traitors sound as innocent as they could be.)
Here's some related thoughts too:
1) If Ushaara is lying and is not town aligned, he might have people who are invested in him staying alive for their win condition.
2) Even if Ushaara is telling the truth, if there's a cultleader Fain in play, he knows that Malmydia is here, and she could potentially be a strong player if converted. If I were Fain, and I had the potential to convert people to my cult, I'd definitely want Ushaara alive, even if I didn't plan on converting him tonight. Or to be a resource-sponge, as I mentioned earlier in #1.
Your logic is really questionable and reeks of WIFOM confusion.
Our goal is to destroy the soulless, not questionable traitors. We don't even know if a traitor cult actually exists. You said our only way to kill soulless is by voting them off, yet you aren't claiming that Ushaara is soulless, you are claiming that he might one day become a traitor. So let's worry about traitors after we destroy the soulless.
You have been pushing people to vote quickly and to push the night phase as quickly as possible at every chance you get. You have been not willing to wait for us to hear from people who can give us more information, and now you are suggesting that we lynch somebody is you believe is the most likely town at this point in time, and might one day become a third party. Pulling all attention from actually looking for soulless to lynch.
It is not a waste of resources to watch someone who you think might be a convert or to investigate somebody who made a claim. Are you going to keep suggesting that we lynch people who make claims, instead of making use of any possible investigators?
We don't know the setup for the game right now, we don't even know if a cult actually exists.
We have other ways of finding out information, such as what Othero told us about Kethuru and Illith. There is no need to lynch Ushaara at this point in time, other than rushing and "lynching someone." That is why I said he is a random lynch. He isn't a threat now, and as you said he likely won't even become a threat tonight because the cult, if they exist, won't want to risk it.
I want us to hunt and destroy soulless and known threats, not to jump at shadows. Right now Ushaara is telling us that traditional traitors are not necessarily a threat, and the longer he stays unconverted the better, no?
Personally, I wanted to wait another day or two so we could ask Lavinya about her earlier comments. We have another 4 days, we don't need to rush. I'd also like to hear more from Seleneity about her gut feeling about Lehkhi. To me, those would give us a lot more information than lynching someone whom most of us believes isn't actually lying.
If you want to push this lynch train on me, go ahead. But I repeat what I said earlier: we learn more from killing Ushaara than what you'd learn from killing me.
And I can vouch for Silvanus using it in his game set-ups, because he gave me investigator immunity in the Los Alamos game. Investigators are not 100%. Mod-confirmations, however, are.
According to you, we shouldn't investigate people because they might be wrong.
We shouldn't watch people who we suspect of not being town, because then it's a waste of resources because of some WIFOM logic.
Why you don't consider town members to be resources, which if needlessly lynched become wasted, I'm not sure.
What happens when we lynch Ushaara and he tells us the truth? Nothing. Except now anybody gets to claim a traitor god who is innocent.
Wouldn't you rather find out from other town aligned traitor gods, who can speak up and vouch that such a thing exists instead of lynching someone who you are mostly certain isn't soulless?
Here's a friendly reminder: if the mafia can predict what we're doing, they can kill and convert more successfully at night. That is what I mean by a waste of resources. For some reason this seems to bother you, that I care about whether or not mafia teams or cult converters can guess what our investigators, our doctors, our watchers, etc are doing. If they don't know what those roles are doing, then it increases the probability that anti-town people will get caught. This is about playing smart, not about crippling town gameplay.
Keeping Ushaara around means he's a magnet for townie powers out of a desire to solve the Traitor alignment mystery. That leaves a lot of other people vulnerable, or unobserved. Do you see why that might, potentially, possibly, be very bad for town? Do you?
I don't think you do.
For the millionth time, if we lynch Ushaara, we know at least whether or not Traitors can be town. Mod-confirmed. No doubt. No suspicion. Just knowledge! That's a win to me. This is literally the only way we get that kind of certainty. All your suggestions for confirming Ushaara otherwise have holes in them, and with something this important, I want to be as sure as I can be about the structure of the game. You keep talking about Ushaara like he's a regular old Elder God, when he's Malmydia. That makes me care much more about his role accuracy.
If you find that motive suspicious and would prefer to roll the die and see what falls with a much more random lynch, okie dokie. Knock yourself out. But the fact that you keep misrepresenting what I, specifically, am trying to accomplish with this lynch is getting old.
(Also, if you think a town-aligned Traitor besides Ushaara is going to speak up, look at the relative silence around you. They're not. Mainly because if they do, this whole conversation will shift dramatically to "which lynch target hurts town less." The people who want to know about a Traitor flip will still want to see a Traitor flip; they just might choose a different Traitor to lynch. We don't have access to their role sheet, so we can't necessarily trust what they're saying. I promise you, bluffs are real in this game. I have bluffed a lot in mafia. It is a definite possibility that people are lying to you, and you should always take people's claims with a grain of salt.)
...It is 4am. I'm going to bed.
I am not misrepresenting your argument. You are just making false claims. The above-quoted argument is false. We will not know that Traitors can be town, we will know that Ushaara specifically is town. We will also know which role he actually has and if he was lying about anything or not. However, we will not know about any other Traitor god role. We will not learn anything that we can actually act upon. It does nothing for us. Every time somebody offers us information voluntarily, you will be making this same argument, and we will be in the same place. -That- is dangerous for us.
You don't know that Ushaara is Malmydia or not. It's not like he is claiming town after being caught. All his information was entirely voluntary.
Yes, nobody else is speaking up, because you have successfully pushed for people to either lynch someone or be quiet. So why, in such a hostile town environment would anyone bother to speak up?
Waiting for information from another source, other than lynching Ushaara, does not mean that the soulless know what our investigators are going to do tonight. Our investigators might check out Ushaara tonight or some other night. I'll let them play the WIFOM game, we don't have to get dragged into it. The point is, you keep claiming that the only way we get information is by lynching people, but that just isn't the case.
I think You are innocent, but We need some understanding. What can You give Us in your defence other than Your win condition, because I really want to believe You aren't lying.
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
This message has mostly been for the benefit of people who may be confused as to WIFOM situations and/or are new players.
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."