Righto, so long post ahead, since it's crunch time for me.
Sylandra has pointed out the very good reasons people in all factions have to lynch me, and I can't dispute them. It will also make identifying who was simply bandwagoning on a convenient lynch tricky.
- Town will learn definitively that what I said is true. - Soulless get a free pass. - If there is a Traitor faction/cult, (and only using 'if' since while it's expected, it's still unconfirmed), they too get a free pass by lynching me.
Whether I get lynched or not will just come down to whether enough townies believe me without needing a lynch to confirm.
So why did I out myself as Malmydia?
Moment I got the rolesheet, I knew it would be a tough role trying to convince people that 'yes, I am town' and 'yes, I only win when the Soulless are defeated.' Since my win condition was phrased as defeat Soulless only and most mislynches happen when there is the least amount of information in play, I figured the best thing to do was have the tough conversation early, and try stave off the "canon Traitor" red herring Silvanus introduced.
Also, I'm aware of how offbeat my theories can be at times. Often I don't even believe them myself, but they are fun to make, sometimes provoke reaction, and allow me to slip in stuff I don't want to say directly at the time. Look back on my posts and you see me try to float the idea that canon Traitors may not be the true Traitor faction, and jumping on fairly tenuous reasoning to the conclusion that Malmydia is present, while Terentia isn't. I was trying to leave some breadcrumbs to my role.
So, while taking things with a pinch of salt is good and all, I really don't think anyone (@Weiwae) should be questioning if I really am Malmydia. It would possibly be the worst fake claim ever, if I was trying to cover up for being Soulless, for the amount of attention it has drawn and the target it painted on me.
Now the timing of my reveal was going to be crucial, and I definitely miscalculated how hungry people are for any sort of verifiable info here. I should have also remembered the lesson from the Reign mafia where we lynched Castleroy for daring to admit he was a Protestant.
But both Dylara and Sylandra made some comments about Falmiis being killed because people may have figured out he was Krokano, and while it wasn't a thread that a lot of people picked up on, it stuck out to me precisely because of the Malmydia eating Krokano thing. It was likely the best chance I was going to get of convincing people that you -cannot- simply go by the canon in a themed game. I felt the longer I left it, the more the argument could be spun that I was hiding something, especially since I have no way of proving that I didn't kill Krokano.
I realize I might just be digging the grave deeper for myself here, but I have no such proof because I -did not- take any action last night, and thus have no power-related alibi for Night 1.
So that's the entirety of the information and reasoning I have to provide about my role, excepting a full power claim. And I'd rather not give out more information than required.
—
So, to now talk about the Traitor faction/cult. This is the Elder Wars, so we are all expecting one to be present.
I said before, and I'll say again, lynching me won't give any further information on a cult/Traitor faction, because I know no more about it. The full extent of my information simply says, "if it's present, it's not simply the canon Traitors," which people are gung-ho on testing because of how information starved we are. I get that.
But from my perspective, canon Traitors in the game are a deliberate red herring. Since playing Malmydia put me in a precarious situation, my claim was in my own self-interest, yes, but it's also aimed to steer Town from chasing those red herrings, since that is the only information I have to provide now to contribute to a Town win.
So if only to present some other scenarios, as the threat is only phrased as the Soulless, and from Othero's information of Soulless attacking each other, I'd say there is quite a strong possibility that the mafia is split into two/more Soulless groups vying for supremacy, as Portius postulated.
Speculative theory: Rites of Abomination were enabled by Fain's pact with Nemach. Rather than Fain being the cult-leader, Nemach is the cult recruiter.
Sylandra suggested only canon Traitors could be recruited, and so I should still be lynched. This makes no sense to me.
Typically, the only cult limitation is 'can't recruit mafia,' barring non-standard setups like Kiradawea's Touhou double cult setup. I do not think we are in such a limiting cult scenario here.
So hopefully that's enough for people to consider retracting votes, and discuss alternative possibilities.
I've to get back to work now, but remember that Town's weapon is vote-pressure. If it's a slow day and you could benefit from more information, start loading up votes on someone! Some good choices would be among those presently voting for me I'd say!
In conclusion: Self-interested Townie? Yes. Traitor/Soulless? No.
@Weiwae The pro-lynch Ushaara rationale has been pretty extensively laid out, but let me see if I can address your specific concerns.
I am not misrepresenting your argument. You are just making false claims. The above-quoted argument is false. We will not know that Traitors can be town, we will know that Ushaara specifically is town. We will also know which role he actually has and if he was lying about anything or not. However, we will not know about any other Traitor god role. We will not learn anything that we can actually act upon. It does nothing for us. Every time somebody offers us information voluntarily, you will be making this same argument, and we will be in the same place. -That- is dangerous for us.
What we will learn if Ushaara flips town is that canonically scum roles will not necessarily be so in this game. More important than that, however, is the reverse: if a traitorous role can be heroic, then a heroic role can be traitorous. It will prevent somebody down the line from claiming that they are obviously town because their role is Isune or Loboshi. Right now, that is a supposition. I want it written in stone.
You don't know that Ushaara is Malmydia or not. It's not like he is claiming town after being caught. All his information was entirely voluntary.
I'm a bit confused by this statement, honestly. We assume he is Malmydia because he claimed Malmydia. Do you think he's lying about that? If so, he should be lynched anyway because what is he hiding by claiming a controversial role? Further, claiming said controversial role early is a very good play! If Ushaara had waited until we had caught a traditional Traitor who flipped scum before claiming to be a good version of Malmydia, there would not be nearly the same amount of debate... he'd almost certainly be lynched quickly. It is important to realize, however, that it is a good play regardless of whether he's scum or town and it is a good play for exactly the same reasons.
Yes, nobody else is speaking up, because you have successfully pushed for people to either lynch someone or be quiet. So why, in such a hostile town environment would anyone bother to speak up?
While this is largely an issue between you and Sylandra, not lynching really isn't an option. If somebody doesn't agree with an Ushaara lynch, it'd be pretty easy for them to voice dissatisfaction and go a different direction without revealing their role (see: yourself), but over half of the players in this game have not expressed an opinion one way or another, and that's not good for anybody except scum.
Waiting for information from another source, other than lynching Ushaara, does not mean that the soulless know what our investigators are going to do tonight. Our investigators might check out Ushaara tonight or some other night. I'll let them play the WIFOM game, we don't have to get dragged into it. The point is, you keep claiming that the only way we get information is by lynching people, but that just isn't the case.
No, the scum will not be able to determine what will happen with 100% certainty. But this isn't a game of certainty, it's a game of educated guesses and calculated risks. And scum have far more freedom and information to guess beneficially than town does...They are the only ones who benefit from uncertainty. Voting Ushaara and directly reading his role has a good chance of taking away a 'safe claim' angle for them which narrows their options. Even though it may make Ushaara a sacrificial lamb, I think that the benefit is worth it.
If he flips scum (still not exactly unlikely), all the better.
Since the Krokano killer is still unexplained and there are no hints from the flavour, I'm also going to get out in front of something, since I'm wary that the longer I leave it the more it could be spun as something it's not if forced into claiming later in the game.
I'm Malmydia. (Best traitor goddess!)
While my rolesheet is an extract from the Book of Krokano where I'm tearing him apart, I had nothing to do with his death. Nothing triggered for me, nothing about me feasting on his essence, nothing about me now operating on Terentia, no win condition of getting him killed/eliminated etc.
It's also why I'm sure that if there is a Traitor faction, it's not simply the canon Traitors. It may not even have anything to do with Fain's Coterie + Rites of Abomination despite how leading the Day 1 post was since Silvanus likes playing with people's expectations. See my spitballed Second Circle theory...
Might there be an overlap with canon Traitors? Sure, but my only win condition is the same as Krokano's. When the Soulless are defeated.
This is fascinating.
Here's my working theory based on this information (if true): Fain could be a cult leader who every night must get a god to join his coterie. This is a fanfiction Elder Wars, so it's possible he could wind up converting people who aren't the 12 Traitors, meaning at a certain point your identity as an Elder won't hold as much weight as it used to. Alternatively, this could go the Touhou route and only people from the Traitors would be abled to be converted into a "Traitors" faction.
It's so Silvanus and so misleadingly him that I could buy this cult theory hook, line, and sinker. Might be wrong, but it feels so possible to me.
I hate punishing Ushaara for his information, but I can't deny the logic that seeing Malmydia flip would put a lot of doubts to rest. Mrrgh. Vote: Ushaara. Sorry, buddy.
@Vivet to be precise, Sylandra admits cultists could be anyone, but the leaning more to "Traitors only" recruitment was what I recalled when writing the post.
I guess another question for @Weiwae might be, why the certainty with Sylandra? It seems to be fueled by the fact she already has votes on her, more than anything else. You might not like her logic, but it's roughly the same bit of logic a lot of people on that lynch train have paid lip service to, at least in passing - Sylandra is merely the most vocal. And by being the most vocal, she is liable to draw the most fire for the stance here and later.
I'm curious because earlier you seemed to want to focus on prodding lurkers, but in this instance you're choosing to leave the people who are leaving short paragraphs, voting, and then not contributing to discussion alone.
@Weiwae The pro-lynch Ushaara rationale has been pretty extensively laid out, but let me see if I can address your specific concerns.
I am not misrepresenting your argument. You are just making false claims. The above-quoted argument is false. We will not know that Traitors can be town, we will know that Ushaara specifically is town. We will also know which role he actually has and if he was lying about anything or not. However, we will not know about any other Traitor god role. We will not learn anything that we can actually act upon. It does nothing for us. Every time somebody offers us information voluntarily, you will be making this same argument, and we will be in the same place. -That- is dangerous for us.
What we will learn if Ushaara flips town is that canonically scum roles will not necessarily be so in this game. More important than that, however, is the reverse: if a traitorous role can be heroic, then a heroic role can be traitorous. It will prevent somebody down the line from claiming that they are obviously town because their role is Isune or Loboshi. Right now, that is a supposition. I want it written in stone.
This is my biggest problem with the lynch train. Because if Ushaara flips over town, we don't know anything more than we know right now.
We already saw that Krakano didn't shard, and Terentia did. That means anything can happen. It's already written in stone.
But let's pretend some people can't read the notifications from the mod that the timeline is different, and things that happened won't, and things that didn't happen might.
These are the possible realities if Ushaara flips town:
1. The Traitors all start off as regular Elders until they find eachother, and only canon Traitors can become Traitors. 2. Anybody can become a Traitor and any canon Traitor can be Town. 3. All Canon Traitors are Traitors except for Malmydia. 4. The Traitors as a group don't actually exist in this game.
In other words, we don't learn anything new. Later in the game, we might have more information, and then we can better make use of the knowledge we gain.
The entire argument to lynch Ushaara is that no matter what we gain useful information, but that just isn't the case. The only scenario in which lynching Ushaara is beneficial is if Ushaara is bluffing about his alignment. So far, I haven't seen anyone seriously argue that position.
I guess another question for @Weiwae might be, why the certainty with Sylandra? It seems to be fueled by the fact she already has votes on her, more than anything else. You might not like her logic, but it's roughly the same bit of logic a lot of people on that lynch train have paid lip service to, at least in passing - Sylandra is merely the most vocal. And by being the most vocal, she is liable to draw the most fire for the stance here and later.
I'm curious because earlier you seemed to want to focus on prodding lurkers, but in this instance you're choosing to leave the people who are leaving short paragraphs, voting, and then not contributing to discussion alone.
As I said earlier, she keeps pushing for people to lynch and end the day as quickly as possible, with no sign of having the patience or desire to wait for more information to be revealed. This is the third time she has tried to pressure people to just "vote for someone".
I'm still on vacation, but as Queen of Bluffs (tm) I do not believe Ushaara is bluffing. Furthermore, I don't buy into the reasoning behind his lynch. I already argued that traitors probably won't be the predictable mafia role, and I 100% believe it based on what I know of Silvanus and how he organizes games. If Ushaara's role had anything valuable to offer in a flip, it's unlikely he'd throw himself in front of the bus like that.
Also, ushaara isn't presenting any wild off the rails defenses, which has been his scum tell in the past.
SO imma say no on that lynch.
Known Aliases: Celina/Cyndarin/Fire Jesus/The Night/That Bitch who griefed us
I'm still on vacation, but as Queen of Bluffs (tm) I do not believe Ushaara is bluffing. Furthermore, I don't buy into the reasoning behind his lynch. I already argued that traitors probably won't be the predictable mafia role, and I 100% believe it based on what I know of Silvanus and how he organizes games. If Ushaara's role had anything valuable to offer in a flip, it's unlikely he'd throw himself in front of the bus like that.
Also, ushaara isn't presenting any wild off the rails defenses, which has been his scum tell in the past.
SO imma say no on that lynch.
I know it wasn't your intent, but thank you for validating my gut feeling regarding @Ushaara.
Ok, but here is my big question this whole time, anyway, that people keep skipping over when I've said I'm not against switching my vote if there's a better thing to do: If not Ushaara, who are we lynching instead?
Who is it a better idea to lynch? If the answer is a random person, my vote stays where it is. Vouching for Ushaara and all that is well and good, but you're not offering an alternative besides Sylandra, because she voted for Ushaara for what even Ushaara admits are perfectly good reasons. For obvious reasons, I'm not on board with that lynch, because at this time it certainly does make sense to lynch Ushaara. All you're doing is going boo hoo, I think he's telling the truth, you can't lynch him! Well, I don't care. Are you going to follow through on this defense? Do something else? Have a better idea?
And the only-recruit-traitors-maybe thing was a theory based on a previous mafia game on these forums (Touhou?) where someone was only able to recruit specific roles into their faction. It's not something I said I believed was definitely the case, just that it was a possibility.
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
Since the Krokano killer is still unexplained and there are no hints from the flavour, I'm also going to get out in front of something, since I'm wary that the longer I leave it the more it could be spun as something it's not if forced into claiming later in the game.
I'm Malmydia. (Best traitor goddess!)
While my rolesheet is an extract from the Book of Krokano where I'm tearing him apart, I had nothing to do with his death. Nothing triggered for me, nothing about me feasting on his essence, nothing about me now operating on Terentia, no win condition of getting him killed/eliminated etc.
It's also why I'm sure that if there is a Traitor faction, it's not simply the canon Traitors. It may not even have anything to do with Fain's Coterie + Rites of Abomination despite how leading the Day 1 post was since Silvanus likes playing with people's expectations. See my spitballed Second Circle theory...
Might there be an overlap with canon Traitors? Sure, but my only win condition is the same as Krokano's. When the Soulless are defeated.
This is fascinating.
Here's my working theory based on this information (if true): Fain could be a cult leader who every night must get a god to join his coterie. This is a fanfiction Elder Wars, so it's possible he could wind up converting people who aren't the 12 Traitors, meaning at a certain point your identity as an Elder won't hold as much weight as it used to. Alternatively, this could go the Touhou route and only people from the Traitors would be abled to be converted into a "Traitors" faction.
It's so Silvanus and so misleadingly him that I could buy this cult theory hook, line, and sinker. Might be wrong, but it feels so possible to me.
I hate punishing Ushaara for his information, but I can't deny the logic that seeing Malmydia flip would put a lot of doubts to rest. Mrrgh. Vote: Ushaara. Sorry, buddy.
@Vivet to be precise, Sylandra admits cultists could be anyone, but the leaning more to "Traitors only" recruitment was what I recalled when writing the post.
It's a cult possibility. Not necessarily the only possibility, but it is a possibility. Touhou cults worked that way (Taoist cult can only convert Taoists, etc).
I've not said it's a certain thing, just it's one version of events that could be a possible.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
Speaking of block/doctor/jail up there, I think I got blocked *and* jailed last night. Tried to protect Lehki but I fell into some sort of trap.
Fine Phoebus. I want to know what happened regarding this and @Lehki. So that's who my vote will sit on.
Vote: Lehki.
To clarify, I don't believe Lehki actually spoke up as to why this happen. Questioning of Xeii happened, but no questioning of Lehki. So Lehki, what's with the traps?
Speaking of block/doctor/jail up there, I think I got blocked *and* jailed last night. Tried to protect Lehki but I fell into some sort of trap.
Fine Phoebus. I want to know what happened regarding this and Lehki. So that's who my vote will sit on.
I'm pretty sure that was just Xeii getting jailed and never making it to her target. I don't think it had anything to actually do with Lehki.
Then who jailed her and why? Either way, I'd like Lehki to speak up.
(no harsh feelings Lehki karaoke with me if you come back to NYC for the meet)
Whoa, no, I'd prefer our jailer, who is probably the only protection we have left once the doctor finally bites the dust, not to claim, tyvm. And I provided a perfectly good explanation as to why someone would jail Xeii, earlier in this day. I'll quote it here so you don't have to go back and look for it.
I think it makes complete sense that a jailer would target the claimed doctor in this situation. A doctor would be a big target for a kill or convert, and at least when they're in jail, they're safe from that. The odds that the jailing would save the alleged doctor are way better than the odds that the unjailed doctor would just so happen to protect a random target from a kill instead.
And if you don't trust their claim, bonus, it also keeps them off the streets for a night.
Speaking of block/doctor/jail up there, I think I got blocked *and* jailed last night. Tried to protect Lehki but I fell into some sort of trap.
Fine Phoebus. I want to know what happened regarding this and Lehki. So that's who my vote will sit on.
I'm pretty sure that was just Xeii getting jailed and never making it to her target. I don't think it had anything to actually do with Lehki.
Then who jailed her and why? Either way, I'd like Lehki to speak up.
(no harsh feelings Lehki karaoke with me if you come back to NYC for the meet)
Whoa, no, I'd prefer our jailer, who is probably the only protection we have left once the doctor finally bites the dust, not to claim, tyvm. And I provided a perfectly good explanation as to why someone would jail Xeii, earlier in this day. I'll quote it here so you don't have to go back and look for it.
I think it makes complete sense that a jailer would target the claimed doctor in this situation. A doctor would be a big target for a kill or convert, and at least when they're in jail, they're safe from that. The odds that the jailing would save the alleged doctor are way better than the odds that the unjailed doctor would just so happen to protect a random target from a kill instead.
And if you don't trust their claim, bonus, it also keeps them off the streets for a night.
Mostly valid. Jailer, ignore my question, do not announce yourself.
I'm still suspicious of Lehki and can't shake it. My vote will stay there. Currently I believe Ushaara to be town, and I think - possibly - Sylandra is acting accidentally scummy, so I'm not going to push her either. My one lone vote won't do any real damage on Lehki.
Speaking of block/doctor/jail up there, I think I got blocked *and* jailed last night. Tried to protect Lehki but I fell into some sort of trap.
Fine Phoebus. I want to know what happened regarding this and Lehki. So that's who my vote will sit on.
I'm pretty sure that was just Xeii getting jailed and never making it to her target. I don't think it had anything to actually do with Lehki.
Then who jailed her and why? Either way, I'd like Lehki to speak up.
(no harsh feelings Lehki karaoke with me if you come back to NYC for the meet)
Whoa, no, I'd prefer our jailer, who is probably the only protection we have left once the doctor finally bites the dust, not to claim, tyvm. And I provided a perfectly good explanation as to why someone would jail Xeii, earlier in this day. I'll quote it here so you don't have to go back and look for it.
I think it makes complete sense that a jailer would target the claimed doctor in this situation. A doctor would be a big target for a kill or convert, and at least when they're in jail, they're safe from that. The odds that the jailing would save the alleged doctor are way better than the odds that the unjailed doctor would just so happen to protect a random target from a kill instead.
And if you don't trust their claim, bonus, it also keeps them off the streets for a night.
Mostly valid. Jailer, ignore my question, do not announce yourself.
I'm still suspicious of Lehki and can't shake it. My vote will stay there. Currently I believe Ushaara to be town, and I think - possibly - Sylandra is acting accidentally scummy, so I'm not going to push her either. My one lone vote won't do any real damage on Lehki.
Ok, but here is my big question this whole time, anyway, that people keep skipping over when I've said I'm not against switching my vote if there's a better thing to do: If not Ushaara, who are we lynching instead?
Who is it a better idea to lynch? If the answer is a random person, my vote stays where it is. Vouching for Ushaara and all that is well and good, but you're not offering an alternative besides Sylandra, because she voted for Ushaara for what even Ushaara admits are perfectly good reasons. For obvious reasons, I'm not on board with that lynch, because at this time it certainly does make sense to lynch Ushaara. All you're doing is going boo hoo, I think he's telling the truth, you can't lynch him! Well, I don't care. Are you going to follow through on this defense? Do something else? Have a better idea?
And the only-recruit-traitors-maybe thing was a theory based on a previous mafia game on these forums (Touhou?) where someone was only able to recruit specific roles into their faction. It's not something I said I believed was definitely the case, just that it was a possibility.
Yomoigu for kicking this off? I feel like asking "Then who should we lynch" is a bad question because our day phase has been wasted by going down this line of Ushaara which still doesn't show much potential for giving us new information. That makes Yomoigu and Sylandra perfectly justifiable lynches for being the ones pushing this the hardest and making sure we continue to waste our time.
Well I have drank enough to sink a ship, so I haven't had much time to read everything in detail. So I don't have an immediate alternative. But I'm flying home tonight. When in doubt, I say let the mafia game masterminds pick a target. So imho that's up to Vivet or Portius.
Known Aliases: Celina/Cyndarin/Fire Jesus/The Night/That Bitch who griefed us
To clarify, I think it's a bad question because we've spent a lot of time on Ushaara without getting much info out about everyone else. The argument has allowed a lot of people to make a short post, vote Ushaara, and disappear. It's tough to come up with alternatives besides Sylandra and Yomigu when we've spent so much time talking about Ushaara and nothing else this early in the game. If you don't agree with the Ushaara push then Sylandra and Yomigu are the people you're going to want to point fingers at first.
If you want someone entirely separate from this I'd say Dylara. Dylara has been vague posting, their only input on the Ushaara thing was to vote and say they'd change it if they thought that Ushaara was telling the truth. Which is weird because the argument has never really been that Ushaara is lying. They also promised a larger post about their thoughts on the day phase but it never showed up. Dylara seems to be working to fly under the radar.
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
Well, I don't think it's been a waste of time if you genuinely felt an Ushaara lynch was a good idea. If you didn't feel that the Ushaara lynch was a good idea, then it's up to you to find something else to talk about.
I've been so vocal because the moment I voted, I got an @Ushaara vote stamped on me. I firmly believe when someone votes for you, the burden of proof is on the voted person to explain themselves. I'm being pretty aggressive, sure, but I think it's worth mentioning that my initial vote got heat on me instantly, and it makes sense to defend your position when your position is potentially getting you killed. @Weiwae was deliberately pointing fingers at my line of reasoning yesterday, so I was answering him. The more I answered him, the more worked up he got about my position, creating a feedback loop where I tried and failed to explain myself to his satisfaction.
If you have no investment in the Ushaara conversation, I can see how that might feel like a waste of time. Clearly, it has not been my position. I don't think we have a better lynch for today, and haven't been impressed with any alternatives. I'm not inherently against discussing them, though--I'm just invested in explaining my position when it's being used against me.
(Would like to repeat that it's interesting @Ushaara still hasn't revealed his powers, though. Any reason?)
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
I know. Was just confirming that it was indeed the case plus nothing else happened.
Thanks for showing that. It got lost in the many pages since day two started.
I still don't trust Lehki enough to unvote him. Maybe my gut's wrong. If it's wrong, great. Nobody's going to join me on voting him today anyway, and I think Ush is town, and that you're coming off as accidentally scummy, so I'll stick my vote where it is for now.
I'm not sure when I became a mastermind, but I think Ushaara is our best lynch thus far. Probably. In this case, best means better than anyone else than we have considered and better than a random lynch. This is one of those times when I'm like 80% sure it's a good idea and willing to go on that, but an concerned that I'm overlooking something. On the other hand, that's pretty much my default state of being. I maintain that it's better to give you my reasoning and let you draw your own conclusions than to try to convince you, so I'll give you an outline of my notes on him. Long post ahead.
tl:dr Lynching Ushaara will tell us very little about the presence or nature of a cult unless he is currently a member. It will tell us a lot about the nature of canon traitor roles, and the value of that will depend on how many of those roles are present. If he's innocent, it rules out the presence of a static traitor mafia group. Having that group seems unlikely, but it's something I've considered. If he's scum, it will tell us a massive amount about either that static group or a cult. Even if he's innocent, there's a case to be made for a safety lynch on him.
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-I am taking as given that Ushaara's claim of being Malmydia is true. --Because why would you ever, ever, false claim something that grabs so much attention and paints that big a target on you? --Also because false claiming a name is going to be very hard this game. There are 20 people, and there aren't that many god names to choose from. If you pick an active role's name, someone immediately knows that you're lying. Even if you somehow manage to convince the town that they are the liar when they accuse you, one lynch and everyone knows you lied.
-I am not taking a town alignment as given. I am taking it as a possibility. --As has been mentioned above by various people, claiming the role early is best play for any alignment, so claiming it really doesn't say anything about Ushaara's alignment. ---If there is a name investigator that revealed Ushaara as a canon traitor without revealing alignment, we start at a basic level of suspicious. He would have to prove innocence to survive, which is hard. Coming out early and of his own accord lets him present it as information about the scenario, which is townier. First impressions count!
-We do not know if a canon traitor can be town or not. --Finding this out is the main benefit to lynching Ush. ---Weiwae has pointed out that we already know that we are diverging from canon. This is only half-true. We know that any narrative which emerges from the game can be outside of canon. For example, Terenti existing instead of Krokani because Krokani died. We do not know if the game's start conditions are heavily outside of canon or not. This is an important distinction.
-If canon traitors are present, it's unlikely that we have all of them. That would take up 12/20 slots, and we know there are at least 2 soulless present. That would leave six non-traitors. That seems too low. At the very least, they'd be a voting block that's so large that we wouldn't need or be able to lynch Ushaara to confirm innocence. --With that in mind, a few game design possibilities strike me as worthy of consideration. ---Are traitors a static group? Maybe. In that case, it's probably all of the canon traitors in the game. I think this is unlikely with our win condition mentioning the soulless, though. ---Are traitors just a red herring and not any type of group? Possible. In this case, Ushaara would be normal town. ---Are the traitors are cult? I think this is the most likely. Two options present themselves. -----Completely normal cult, no interaction with historical traitors. I think this is unlikely because Silvanus would want something more thematic and tied to fluff. -----Canon traitors start town, but are better targets for cult recruitment. Might have powers that have synergy with cult goals, might gain new ones when recruited. I think this is the most likely design, because it's thematic without restricting player choice too much. If this is the case and a cult knows about it, Ushaara is a massive conversion target. Probably not for next turn, since the cult wouldn't want to risk a watcher on him tonight, but in the next couple. We'd have to either lock down a watcher or a jailer to defend against cult recruitment, but the cult may very well not exist. I do not like this. It consumes a lot of resources or opens up a gaping security hole. A lynch is safe.
I think lynching is better than not lynching. Pretty much always, but that's a hard sell on this forum. With that in mind, my preference for alternative targets if people are violently opposed to Ushaara:
-People who RP their roles heavily, either in terms of their action choices or mode of speech. Makes it much harder to sort out clear information from the RP, and there's always a risk of them making a choice that hurts the town because it's what their role would do.
-People who are heavily prone to voting no lynch, because no lynch is bad.
Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
To clarify, I think it's a bad question because we've spent a lot of time on Ushaara without getting much info out about everyone else. The argument has allowed a lot of people to make a short post, vote Ushaara, and disappear. It's tough to come up with alternatives besides Sylandra and Yomigu when we've spent so much time talking about Ushaara and nothing else this early in the game. If you don't agree with the Ushaara push then Sylandra and Yomigu are the people you're going to want to point fingers at first.
If you want someone entirely separate from this I'd say Dylara. Dylara has been vague posting, their only input on the Ushaara thing was to vote and say they'd change it if they thought that Ushaara was telling the truth. Which is weird because the argument has never really been that Ushaara is lying. They also promised a larger post about their thoughts on the day phase but it never showed up. Dylara seems to be working to fly under the radar.
This weekend was busier than I expect, and I didn't realize how consuming Zelda would be so I never got around to my follow up post. My bad. I'm at work, and can't write huge posts because phone writing sucks. Udhaara is rubbing me the wrong way, I can't explain it and was hoping his follow up posts would shake the feeling. Something seems off still but even just watching the reactions of people posting against and for is giving me some ideas. Putting forth that information without reason is just, why? It didn't really tell us anything concrete and only made us squabble further amongst ourselves. I'd like further information on powers, unless I missed it while I was writing this post.
I have more Posts to read through and I'm fighting my phone for what words I want it to put and what it wants to write.
Avurekhos says, "Dylara's a PvP menace in my eyes, totes rekting face."
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable. Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.
- why don't we know the game setup in these games? I've noticed we spend half the game just trying to figure out what the rules are. Would knowing the setup be so op?
- ushaara is about to be lynched and won't say what his powers are. Why?
Comments
Sylandra has pointed out the very good reasons people in all factions have to lynch me, and I can't dispute them. It will also make identifying who was simply bandwagoning on a convenient lynch tricky.
- Town will learn definitively that what I said is true.
- Soulless get a free pass.
- If there is a Traitor faction/cult, (and only using 'if' since while it's expected, it's still unconfirmed), they too get a free pass by lynching me.
Whether I get lynched or not will just come down to whether enough townies believe me without needing a lynch to confirm.
So why did I out myself as Malmydia?
Moment I got the rolesheet, I knew it would be a tough role trying to convince people that 'yes, I am town' and 'yes, I only win when the Soulless are defeated.' Since my win condition was phrased as defeat Soulless only and most mislynches happen when there is the least amount of information in play, I figured the best thing to do was have the tough conversation early, and try stave off the "canon Traitor" red herring Silvanus introduced.
Also, I'm aware of how offbeat my theories can be at times. Often I don't even believe them myself, but they are fun to make, sometimes provoke reaction, and allow me to slip in stuff I don't want to say directly at the time. Look back on my posts and you see me try to float the idea that canon Traitors may not be the true Traitor faction, and jumping on fairly tenuous reasoning to the conclusion that Malmydia is present, while Terentia isn't. I was trying to leave some breadcrumbs to my role.
So, while taking things with a pinch of salt is good and all, I really don't think anyone (@Weiwae) should be questioning if I really am Malmydia. It would possibly be the worst fake claim ever, if I was trying to cover up for being Soulless, for the amount of attention it has drawn and the target it painted on me.
Now the timing of my reveal was going to be crucial, and I definitely miscalculated how hungry people are for any sort of verifiable info here. I should have also remembered the lesson from the Reign mafia where we lynched Castleroy for daring to admit he was a Protestant.
But both Dylara and Sylandra made some comments about Falmiis being killed because people may have figured out he was Krokano, and while it wasn't a thread that a lot of people picked up on, it stuck out to me precisely because of the Malmydia eating Krokano thing. It was likely the best chance I was going to get of convincing people that you -cannot- simply go by the canon in a themed game. I felt the longer I left it, the more the argument could be spun that I was hiding something, especially since I have no way of proving that I didn't kill Krokano.
I realize I might just be digging the grave deeper for myself here, but I have no such proof because I -did not- take any action last night, and thus have no power-related alibi for Night 1.
So that's the entirety of the information and reasoning I have to provide about my role, excepting a full power claim. And I'd rather not give out more information than required.
—
So, to now talk about the Traitor faction/cult. This is the Elder Wars, so we are all expecting one to be present.
I said before, and I'll say again, lynching me won't give any further information on a cult/Traitor faction, because I know no more about it. The full extent of my information simply says, "if it's present, it's not simply the canon Traitors," which people are gung-ho on testing because of how information starved we are. I get that.
But from my perspective, canon Traitors in the game are a deliberate red herring. Since playing Malmydia put me in a precarious situation, my claim was in my own self-interest, yes, but it's also aimed to steer Town from chasing those red herrings, since that is the only information I have to provide now to contribute to a Town win.
So if only to present some other scenarios, as the threat is only phrased as the Soulless, and from Othero's information of Soulless attacking each other, I'd say there is quite a strong possibility that the mafia is split into two/more Soulless groups vying for supremacy, as Portius postulated.
Speculative theory: Rites of Abomination were enabled by Fain's pact with Nemach. Rather than Fain being the cult-leader, Nemach is the cult recruiter.
Sylandra suggested only canon Traitors could be recruited, and so I should still be lynched. This makes no sense to me.
Typically, the only cult limitation is 'can't recruit mafia,' barring non-standard setups like Kiradawea's Touhou double cult setup. I do not think we are in such a limiting cult scenario here.
So hopefully that's enough for people to consider retracting votes, and discuss alternative possibilities.
I've to get back to work now, but remember that Town's weapon is vote-pressure. If it's a slow day and you could benefit from more information, start loading up votes on someone! Some good choices would be among those presently voting for me I'd say!
In conclusion:
Self-interested Townie? Yes.
Traitor/Soulless? No.
If he flips scum (still not exactly unlikely), all the better.
I'm curious because earlier you seemed to want to focus on prodding lurkers, but in this instance you're choosing to leave the people who are leaving short paragraphs, voting, and then not contributing to discussion alone.
We already saw that Krakano didn't shard, and Terentia did. That means anything can happen. It's already written in stone.
But let's pretend some people can't read the notifications from the mod that the timeline is different, and things that happened won't, and things that didn't happen might.
These are the possible realities if Ushaara flips town:
1. The Traitors all start off as regular Elders until they find eachother, and only canon Traitors can become Traitors.
2. Anybody can become a Traitor and any canon Traitor can be Town.
3. All Canon Traitors are Traitors except for Malmydia.
4. The Traitors as a group don't actually exist in this game.
In other words, we don't learn anything new. Later in the game, we might have more information, and then we can better make use of the knowledge we gain.
The entire argument to lynch Ushaara is that no matter what we gain useful information, but that just isn't the case. The only scenario in which lynching Ushaara is beneficial is if Ushaara is bluffing about his alignment. So far, I haven't seen anyone seriously argue that position.
Also, ushaara isn't presenting any wild off the rails defenses, which has been his scum tell in the past.
SO imma say no on that lynch.
Who is it a better idea to lynch? If the answer is a random person, my vote stays where it is. Vouching for Ushaara and all that is well and good, but you're not offering an alternative besides Sylandra, because she voted for Ushaara for what even Ushaara admits are perfectly good reasons. For obvious reasons, I'm not on board with that lynch, because at this time it certainly does make sense to lynch Ushaara. All you're doing is going boo hoo, I think he's telling the truth, you can't lynch him! Well, I don't care. Are you going to follow through on this defense? Do something else? Have a better idea?
And the only-recruit-traitors-maybe thing was a theory based on a previous mafia game on these forums (Touhou?) where someone was only able to recruit specific roles into their faction. It's not something I said I believed was definitely the case, just that it was a possibility.
I've not said it's a certain thing, just it's one version of events that could be a possible.
Vote: Lehki.
(no harsh feelings Lehki karaoke with me if you come back to NYC for the meet)
I'm still suspicious of Lehki and can't shake it. My vote will stay there. Currently I believe Ushaara to be town, and I think - possibly - Sylandra is acting accidentally scummy, so I'm not going to push her either. My one lone vote won't do any real damage on Lehki.
I'm still suspicious of Lehki and can't shake it. My vote will stay there. Currently I believe Ushaara to be town, and I think - possibly - Sylandra is acting accidentally scummy, so I'm not going to push her either. My one lone vote won't do any real damage on Lehki.
If you want someone entirely separate from this I'd say Dylara. Dylara has been vague posting, their only input on the Ushaara thing was to vote and say they'd change it if they thought that Ushaara was telling the truth. Which is weird because the argument has never really been that Ushaara is lying. They also promised a larger post about their thoughts on the day phase but it never showed up. Dylara seems to be working to fly under the radar.
I've been so vocal because the moment I voted, I got an @Ushaara vote stamped on me. I firmly believe when someone votes for you, the burden of proof is on the voted person to explain themselves. I'm being pretty aggressive, sure, but I think it's worth mentioning that my initial vote got heat on me instantly, and it makes sense to defend your position when your position is potentially getting you killed. @Weiwae was deliberately pointing fingers at my line of reasoning yesterday, so I was answering him. The more I answered him, the more worked up he got about my position, creating a feedback loop where I tried and failed to explain myself to his satisfaction.
If you have no investment in the Ushaara conversation, I can see how that might feel like a waste of time. Clearly, it has not been my position. I don't think we have a better lynch for today, and haven't been impressed with any alternatives. I'm not inherently against discussing them, though--I'm just invested in explaining my position when it's being used against me.
(Would like to repeat that it's interesting @Ushaara still hasn't revealed his powers, though. Any reason?)
I still don't trust Lehki enough to unvote him. Maybe my gut's wrong. If it's wrong, great. Nobody's going to join me on voting him today anyway, and I think Ush is town, and that you're coming off as accidentally scummy, so I'll stick my vote where it is for now.
tl:dr Lynching Ushaara will tell us very little about the presence or nature of a cult unless he is currently a member. It will tell us a lot about the nature of canon traitor roles, and the value of that will depend on how many of those roles are present. If he's innocent, it rules out the presence of a static traitor mafia group. Having that group seems unlikely, but it's something I've considered. If he's scum, it will tell us a massive amount about either that static group or a cult. Even if he's innocent, there's a case to be made for a safety lynch on him.
---------------------------------------------
-I am taking as given that Ushaara's claim of being Malmydia is true.
--Because why would you ever, ever, false claim something that grabs so much attention and paints that big a target on you?
--Also because false claiming a name is going to be very hard this game. There are 20 people, and there aren't that many god names to choose from. If you pick an active role's name, someone immediately knows that you're lying. Even if you somehow manage to convince the town that they are the liar when they accuse you, one lynch and everyone knows you lied.
-I am not taking a town alignment as given. I am taking it as a possibility.
--As has been mentioned above by various people, claiming the role early is best play for any alignment, so claiming it really doesn't say anything about Ushaara's alignment.
---If there is a name investigator that revealed Ushaara as a canon traitor without revealing alignment, we start at a basic level of suspicious. He would have to prove innocence to survive, which is hard. Coming out early and of his own accord lets him present it as information about the scenario, which is townier. First impressions count!
-We do not know if a canon traitor can be town or not.
--Finding this out is the main benefit to lynching Ush.
---Weiwae has pointed out that we already know that we are diverging from canon. This is only half-true. We know that any narrative which emerges from the game can be outside of canon. For example, Terenti existing instead of Krokani because Krokani died. We do not know if the game's start conditions are heavily outside of canon or not. This is an important distinction.
-If canon traitors are present, it's unlikely that we have all of them. That would take up 12/20 slots, and we know there are at least 2 soulless present. That would leave six non-traitors. That seems too low. At the very least, they'd be a voting block that's so large that we wouldn't need or be able to lynch Ushaara to confirm innocence.
--With that in mind, a few game design possibilities strike me as worthy of consideration.
---Are traitors a static group? Maybe. In that case, it's probably all of the canon traitors in the game. I think this is unlikely with our win condition mentioning the soulless, though.
---Are traitors just a red herring and not any type of group? Possible. In this case, Ushaara would be normal town.
---Are the traitors are cult? I think this is the most likely. Two options present themselves.
-----Completely normal cult, no interaction with historical traitors. I think this is unlikely because Silvanus would want something more thematic and tied to fluff.
-----Canon traitors start town, but are better targets for cult recruitment. Might have powers that have synergy with cult goals, might gain new ones when recruited. I think this is the most likely design, because it's thematic without restricting player choice too much. If this is the case and a cult knows about it, Ushaara is a massive conversion target. Probably not for next turn, since the cult wouldn't want to risk a watcher on him tonight, but in the next couple. We'd have to either lock down a watcher or a jailer to defend against cult recruitment, but the cult may very well not exist. I do not like this. It consumes a lot of resources or opens up a gaping security hole. A lynch is safe.
----------------------------------------------------
I think lynching is better than not lynching. Pretty much always, but that's a hard sell on this forum. With that in mind, my preference for alternative targets if people are violently opposed to Ushaara:
-People who RP their roles heavily, either in terms of their action choices or mode of speech. Makes it much harder to sort out clear information from the RP, and there's always a risk of them making a choice that hurts the town because it's what their role would do.
-People who are heavily prone to voting no lynch, because no lynch is bad.
I have more Posts to read through and I'm fighting my phone for what words I want it to put and what it wants to write.
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable.
Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.
- wtf is the wifi thing weiwae keeps mentioning?
- why don't we know the game setup in these games? I've noticed we spend half the game just trying to figure out what the rules are. Would knowing the setup be so op?
- ushaara is about to be lynched and won't say what his powers are. Why?