When your community has people dishonestly using the self-moderation tools to advance a partisan narrative, it's time for a change. If your argument is seriously "Let's remove all flags," then we can go there. If your argument is "Some flags weren't being abused like others, so we should bring back the ones that were being abused," I'm not sure there's a lot more to say on that front. We're probably never going to agree on that.
Or maybe, just maybe, people actually felt like you/Minkahmet/whoever else was in the wrong deserved to be flagged and/or disagreed with. I'd wager to say that 95% of Lusternia's players are adults with more agency and responsibility than you're assuming (e.g. this stupid partisan flagging argument where you just hit the agree button because it's your friends and the disagree button just because you fight these people in a game).
It's insulting for you to assume people's motivations are so simpleminded. I don't think you understand that.
When your community has people dishonestly using the self-moderation tools to advance a partisan narrative, it's time for a change. If your argument is seriously "Let's remove all flags," then we can go there. If your argument is "Some flags weren't being abused like others, so we should bring back the ones that were being abused," I'm not sure there's a lot more to say on that front. We're probably never going to agree on that.
Or maybe, just maybe, people actually felt like you/Minkahmet/whoever else was in the wrong deserved to be flagged and/or disagreed with. I'd wager to say that 95% of Lusternia's players are adults with more agency and responsibility than you're assuming (e.g. this stupid partisan flagging argument where you just hit the agree button because it's your friends and the disagree button just because you fight these people in a game).
It's insulting for you to assume people's motivations are so simpleminded. I don't think you understand that.
How is it any more "in the wrong" for one person to say the same offensive thing as someone else? They are both equally wrong. You undermine your own point by saying "Hey the people on 'the other team' deserve to be flagged." It's pretty clearly partisan.
Edit: It is a little baffling that you admit people are doing it, and then say you're insulted by people pointing out your own words. There aren't even any assumptions to be had there.
Please can we just keep one thing straight here as it seems to have been getting blurred over the course of recent posts. The dislike button and the flag system are not, and were not, the same thing. Flags are for reporting things to the admin, dislike is a method for expressing just that - that you dislike the contents of a post. The two were (and should be) used in different ways. The changes to the flag options are not really being questioned here.
Please can we just keep one thing straight here as it seems to have been getting blurred over the course of recent posts. The dislike button and the flag system are not, and were not, the same thing. Flags are for reporting things to the admin, dislike is a method for expressing just that - that you dislike the contents of a post. The two were (and should be) used in different ways. The changes to the flag options are not really being questioned here.
They're all part of the same suite of negative reactions. Differing uses, but both with the same goal per the design of these forums (crowdsourcing curation of the forum contents / conversation to the posters).
"There is always the potential for abuse when you open up avenues of
self-curation in a community. In general, we discourage the use of any
negative reactions unless there are established guidelines for their use
in your community."
When your community has people dishonestly using the self-moderation tools to advance a partisan narrative, it's time for a change. If your argument is seriously "Let's remove all flags," then we can go there. If your argument is "Some flags weren't being abused like others, so we should bring back the ones that were being abused," I'm not sure there's a lot more to say on that front. We're probably never going to agree on that.
Or maybe, just maybe, people actually felt like you/Minkahmet/whoever else was in the wrong deserved to be flagged and/or disagreed with. I'd wager to say that 95% of Lusternia's players are adults with more agency and responsibility than you're assuming (e.g. this stupid partisan flagging argument where you just hit the agree button because it's your friends and the disagree button just because you fight these people in a game).
It's insulting for you to assume people's motivations are so simpleminded. I don't think you understand that.
How is it any more "in the wrong" for one person to say the same offensive thing as someone else? They are both equally wrong. You undermine your own point by saying "Hey the people on 'the other team' deserve to be flagged." It's pretty clearly partisan.
You could argue that if you take those two posts out of context.
However, it's pretty obvious that someone was provoking the other in that full exchange. Hence the abuse flags.
Fwiw, I'm not arguing against the change in forum reactions (because it's pretty clear they're here to stay), but LOL being the new disagree button is pretty much a step down from civilized discourse. By all means though, pretend it's someone that actually found something amusing in a benign way. I can't stop you from doing that.
Please can we just keep one thing straight here as it seems to have been getting blurred over the course of recent posts. The dislike button and the flag system are not, and were not, the same thing. Flags are for reporting things to the admin, dislike is a method for expressing just that - that you dislike the contents of a post. The two were (and should be) used in different ways. The changes to the flag options are not really being questioned here.
They're all part of the same suite of negative reactions. Differing uses, but both with the same goal per the design of these forums (crowdsourcing curation of the forum contents / conversation to the posters).
"There is always the potential for abuse when you open up avenues of
self-curation in a community. In general, we discourage the use of any
negative reactions unless there are established guidelines for their use
in your community."
I don't know what to tell you if you think 'disagree' is a negative reaction.
When your community has people dishonestly using the self-moderation tools to advance a partisan narrative, it's time for a change. If your argument is seriously "Let's remove all flags," then we can go there. If your argument is "Some flags weren't being abused like others, so we should bring back the ones that were being abused," I'm not sure there's a lot more to say on that front. We're probably never going to agree on that.
Or maybe, just maybe, people actually felt like you/Minkahmet/whoever else was in the wrong deserved to be flagged and/or disagreed with. I'd wager to say that 95% of Lusternia's players are adults with more agency and responsibility than you're assuming (e.g. this stupid partisan flagging argument where you just hit the agree button because it's your friends and the disagree button just because you fight these people in a game).
It's insulting for you to assume people's motivations are so simpleminded. I don't think you understand that.
How is it any more "in the wrong" for one person to say the same offensive thing as someone else? They are both equally wrong. You undermine your own point by saying "Hey the people on 'the other team' deserve to be flagged." It's pretty clearly partisan.
You could argue that if you take those two posts out of context.
However, it's pretty obvious that someone was provoking the other in that full exchange. Hence the abuse flags.
There is no forum rule that says "You're allowed to make personal attacks if provoked." You don't get a free pass. The appropriate thing was to mark them both, treat them equally, and have both passed over for moderation. Instead, "justification" is provided as to why one side somehow deserves to be allowed to do what is so terribly bad for the other one.
I don't think Disagree and Flag are the same thing...
I like the change to Flag to make it actually report what is abusive, but still prefer the Agree and Disagree to Heart and LOL (both of which can be used passive-aggressively).
And disagree is not as harsh as even a downvote imo
You are startled as a lemon meringue pie bounces harmlessly off you after being thrown at you by Mysrai.
When your community has people dishonestly using the self-moderation tools to advance a partisan narrative, it's time for a change. If your argument is seriously "Let's remove all flags," then we can go there. If your argument is "Some flags weren't being abused like others, so we should bring back the ones that were being abused," I'm not sure there's a lot more to say on that front. We're probably never going to agree on that.
Or maybe, just maybe, people actually felt like you/Minkahmet/whoever else was in the wrong deserved to be flagged and/or disagreed with. I'd wager to say that 95% of Lusternia's players are adults with more agency and responsibility than you're assuming (e.g. this stupid partisan flagging argument where you just hit the agree button because it's your friends and the disagree button just because you fight these people in a game).
It's insulting for you to assume people's motivations are so simpleminded. I don't think you understand that.
How is it any more "in the wrong" for one person to say the same offensive thing as someone else? They are both equally wrong. You undermine your own point by saying "Hey the people on 'the other team' deserve to be flagged." It's pretty clearly partisan.
You could argue that if you take those two posts out of context.
However, it's pretty obvious that someone was provoking the other in that full exchange. Hence the abuse flags.
There is no forum rule that says "You're allowed to make personal attacks if provoked." You don't get a free pass. The appropriate thing was to mark them both, treat them equally, and have both passed over for moderation. Instead, "justification" is provided as to why one side somehow deserves to be allowed to do what is so terribly bad for the other one.
Did Kethaera's post not get flagged at all?
Ultimately it's up to the admin whether they follow up on forum flags or not. You can't place blame on the playerbase for using buttons available to them to express what they think is abuse, what they disagree with or what they agree with. Take it up with the admin if you feel like punishment is being doled out unevenly.
Please can we just keep one thing straight here as it seems to have been getting blurred over the course of recent posts. The dislike button and the flag system are not, and were not, the same thing. Flags are for reporting things to the admin, dislike is a method for expressing just that - that you dislike the contents of a post. The two were (and should be) used in different ways. The changes to the flag options are not really being questioned here.
They're all part of the same suite of negative reactions. Differing uses, but both with the same goal per the design of these forums (crowdsourcing curation of the forum contents / conversation to the posters).
"There is always the potential for abuse when you open up avenues of
self-curation in a community. In general, we discourage the use of any
negative reactions unless there are established guidelines for their use
in your community."
I don't know what to tell you if you think 'disagree' is a negative reaction.
When your community has people dishonestly using the self-moderation tools to advance a partisan narrative, it's time for a change. If your argument is seriously "Let's remove all flags," then we can go there. If your argument is "Some flags weren't being abused like others, so we should bring back the ones that were being abused," I'm not sure there's a lot more to say on that front. We're probably never going to agree on that.
Or maybe, just maybe, people actually felt like you/Minkahmet/whoever else was in the wrong deserved to be flagged and/or disagreed with. I'd wager to say that 95% of Lusternia's players are adults with more agency and responsibility than you're assuming (e.g. this stupid partisan flagging argument where you just hit the agree button because it's your friends and the disagree button just because you fight these people in a game).
It's insulting for you to assume people's motivations are so simpleminded. I don't think you understand that.
How is it any more "in the wrong" for one person to say the same offensive thing as someone else? They are both equally wrong. You undermine your own point by saying "Hey the people on 'the other team' deserve to be flagged." It's pretty clearly partisan.
You could argue that if you take those two posts out of context.
However, it's pretty obvious that someone was provoking the other in that full exchange. Hence the abuse flags.
There is no forum rule that says "You're allowed to make personal attacks if provoked." You don't get a free pass. The appropriate thing was to mark them both, treat them equally, and have both passed over for moderation. Instead, "justification" is provided as to why one side somehow deserves to be allowed to do what is so terribly bad for the other one.
Did Kethaera's post not get flagged at all?
Ultimately it's up to the admin whether they follow up on forum flags or not. You can't place blame on the playerbase for using buttons available to them to express what they think is abuse, what they disagree with or what they agree with. Take it up with the admin if you feel like punishment is being doled out unevenly.
It was flagged exactly once, but it doesn't get reported until it gets to 5 (so there is nothing to "follow up on" until then). "Five or more Abuse reactions will add the content to the Moderation Queue for moderator review." As to your part about blame: You're kind of right on that, it's hard to blame someone for using the tools at their disposal... but if those tools are being used in ways that aren't desired, they could very well end up getting changed or removed.
Please can we just keep one thing straight here as it seems to have been getting blurred over the course of recent posts. The dislike button and the flag system are not, and were not, the same thing. Flags are for reporting things to the admin, dislike is a method for expressing just that - that you dislike the contents of a post. The two were (and should be) used in different ways. The changes to the flag options are not really being questioned here.
They're all part of the same suite of negative reactions. Differing uses, but both with the same goal per the design of these forums (crowdsourcing curation of the forum contents / conversation to the posters).
"There is always the potential for abuse when you open up avenues of
self-curation in a community. In general, we discourage the use of any
negative reactions unless there are established guidelines for their use
in your community."
Even from the definition posted on that page, the disagree option is not a negative reaction. Dislike is the 'negative reaction'.
Disagree - "Users that disagree"... "disagreement is highly subjective"... "doesn't ...bury the post or give any points."
Using negative reactions (emphasis mine)
The current default for negative reactions in new installations of Vanilla is for them to remove 1 point from the discussion or comment, but to have no effect on the point total of the user who made the post. This discourages abuse of negative reactions beyond simple voting scenarios.
*edit* was missing the word from in my first sentence.
Good news everyone! Retired players can't post to the forums. So I've had an inhabit a body that isn't retired to carry on conversations. Btw, this is @Lycidas in case the avatar doesn't make it obvious. No wonder forum conversation is shrinking! We can only login to the forums while the cookies are still active. Meaning if they expire or get cleaned out, GOODBYE forum access.
The skarch_revenge quest line to become an Honourary Harlot is pretty straightforward, and none too difficult to deal with. Just lots of legwork going to various locales, and the need to be able to beg from resistant mobs. The ending is pretty entertaining too.
Comments
The dislike button and the flag system are not, and were not, the same thing. Flags are for reporting things to the admin, dislike is a method for expressing just that - that you dislike the contents of a post.
The two were (and should be) used in different ways. The changes to the flag options are not really being questioned here.
I like the change to Flag to make it actually report what is abusive, but still prefer the Agree and Disagree to Heart and LOL (both of which can be used passive-aggressively).
And disagree is not as harsh as even a downvote imo
Disagree - "Users that disagree"... "disagreement is highly subjective"... "doesn't ...bury the post or give any points."
Using negative reactions (emphasis mine)
The current default for negative reactions in new installations of Vanilla is for them to remove 1 point from the discussion or comment, but to have no effect on the point total of the user who made the post. This discourages abuse of negative reactions beyond simple voting scenarios.
*edit* was missing the word from in my first sentence.
Thank you @Jolanthe and @Malarious for helping!!
It takes about five resets doesn't it? Well done!
Would recommend.