On the mechanics of raiding - reflections and brainstorming

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  • EnyaEnya Member Posts: 495 Expert
    edited July 2018
    Defenders lose the time it takes to defend the raid plus the time it takes to repair the damage from the raid (if any). [Almost] All of the value in a game like Lusternia comes down to time. 

    You're wrong about windows though, and you can have windows and also not take away pker's way to pk. You just limit the most destructive and lame avenue of PK.

    EDIT: The worst mechanic in Lusternia is Order Affinity :p
  • RasvinRasvin Member Posts: 44 Apprentice
    Normal raids take next to nothing to regain. These shouldn't even be a discussion. 

    Smob raids haven't happened very often; however, tweaks are fine. A window to put raiding off limits except during a window is completely unacceptable to me. We all have opinions though. I just think there are better options. 
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,869 Transcendent
    Rasvin said:
    Karlach said:
    The best a defender can do is maintain the status quo.

    The worst an attacker can do is lose essence, which is swiftly gained.

    Comparing the worst for the defender and best for the raider is apples and oranges. 


    I feel like you didn't read what I actually wrote before commentating.

    Also every other avenue of PK is on a window, and saying "no one wants to" is both wrong and arrogant to assume, as.

    A: Not everyone plays for the PK
    B: People log on to do other things than fight on someone else's decision, and then having to drop all that to defend because someone thought there were easy pickings to be had.

    Giving raids a clear window of opportunity gives everyone fair warning, attackers and defenders. Also gives us room to nerf discretionaries, because everyone has fair and equal warning.

    There's little objection to be had from anyone who wants a fight, here's a window to have opposition focus on.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


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  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 2,016 Transcendent
    Karlach said:

    We're a risk averse culture (and by we, I revert back to my previous statement that every org/alliance has engaged in this), hence why people attack when there's little to no risk, same applies to upgrading/absolving domoths. People are forced into fights by random timers and pre-announced events to get any real fights, because of the short window.

    The random timers in my experience have had the worst fights. My experience of most villages in the past year is I show up and its an easy win because we have a ton of people or its a massive loss because the enemy has a ton of people and we have none. Its super rare that we have an actual fight in any revolt never mind a balanced challenging one.

    We get more fights in things like domoths because we can start them when we know a challenge is around. You are right in that the flip side can and does happen often in that domoths get done when there is no risk.

    But best and most entertaining quality pvp comes from mainly raids because you can raid when you know a bunch of good enemies are around to get a good fight. Its entirely player controlled.

    Defenders have a fairly strong mechanical advantage over attackers for sure. There isn't any dispute to this. Ripple/live forest are solid passive hinderance, distort isn't as obvious but works pretty well as a defender buff and attacker nerf. Shrine powers make a big difference as well. Wrath is superb passive damage and then throw in invasion and gravity and your talking a really uphill battle for attackers vs defenders.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 3,020 Transcendent
    Deichtine said:


    Defenders have a fairly strong mechanical advantage over attackers for sure. There isn't any dispute to this. Ripple/live forest are solid passive hinderance, distort isn't as obvious but works pretty well as a defender buff and attacker nerf. Shrine powers make a big difference as well. Wrath is superb passive damage and then throw in invasion and gravity and your talking a really uphill battle for attackers vs defenders.
    Wrong. Attackers get to choose their time. I.e. when there's no defenders, and if they're lucky, nobody around to put up discretionaries.

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  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,869 Transcendent
    I'm thinking random but announced, for the record, like domoth dormancies.

    I'd like that mechanic extended across all conflict mechanics.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 2,016 Transcendent
    @Maligorn That isnt my experience of raids in the past year. Most of my raids happen when we have significant enemies about to defend, I cant recall the last time I raided nil and didn't get hit with ripple.

    Besides the point though. The defender mechanically speaking has a bunch of hard coded mechanical advantanges over any attacker. Again no real dispute you see and time these defensive abilities and compare them with the offensive mechanics and see how they are stronger. Its a pretty clear cut case. Defenders have a strong mechanical advantage.

    @Karlach I like that idea. What if we had something like a domoth once every 0-12 hours randomly. A 12hr time means that most people should be about for it and it'd cross most time zones.
  • RasvinRasvin Member Posts: 44 Apprentice
    edited July 2018
    Karlach said:
    Rasvin said:
    Karlach said:
    The best a defender can do is maintain the status quo.

    The worst an attacker can do is lose essence, which is swiftly gained.

    Comparing the worst for the defender and best for the raider is apples and oranges. 


    I feel like you didn't read what I actually wrote before commentating.

    Also every other avenue of PK is on a window, and saying "no one wants to" is both wrong and arrogant to assume, as.

    A: Not everyone plays for the PK
    B: People log on to do other things than fight on someone else's decision, and then having to drop all that to defend because someone thought there were easy pickings to be had.

    Giving raids a clear window of opportunity gives everyone fair warning, attackers and defenders. Also gives us room to nerf discretionaries, because everyone has fair and equal warning.

    There's little objection to be had from anyone who wants a fight, here's a window to have opposition focus on.
    I feel as if you lost a logical debate so you had to state how you "feel", but you did not explain why you feel that way. My concern was your logic started flawed. You didn't clarify if you were talking about smob raids or just raids, but it is clear that you mean all raids at this point. Don't make this personal, and I wont. I will respond to every aspect, so you don't feel I didn't read your entire message. If you are suggesting it is because I inverted the worst for defenders... then the logic still applies. You still compared apples to oranges. The best for one and the worst for one. 

    As you stated every other avenue has a window, and I miss everything except wild nodes. I also miss parts of it. 

    A. People don't have to defend.
    B. You wouldn't have been able to defend if the person hadn't logged in, so they can do what they want. The only reason you have to defend is smobs because they do hurt an org. 

    Giving raids a clear window just limits when someone who does want to PK can PK. 

    I know of a lot of objection to more windows. I hate windows for example. 

    Post edited by Rasvin on
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 2,016 Transcendent
    Limiting raiding to windows is a bad idea.

    Adding in new regular pvp conflict events on a window is a great idea.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 3,020 Transcendent
    Adding in new regular pvp conflict events just lets certain parties flex their muscles over new territory. I don't mean to derail the thread by contesting this idea, but inherent problems with skillsets and artifacts need to be addressed before bringing in new events.

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  • EnadonellaEnadonella Member Posts: 454 Expert
    I'd love to see something where if you are standing at nexus for more than a minute while your loyals are being hit you are randomly flung into a new room and forced to fight (or flee back to safety) instead of standing around at the nexus while the people seeking pvp wait to see if you are actually going to move from nexus. 

    There are other problems raiders looking for pvp face exist too. We need to encourage people to fight not shut down the ones that already do!
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 2,016 Transcendent

    Yea that is a massive derail. That's two different things. We have special and normal reports and envoys to fix up class specific issues.

    Fixing up the lack of pvp events and adjusting them is something we can do in tandem to normal reports.

  • EnyaEnya Member Posts: 495 Expert
    I'm not a fan of random windows, personally. I mostly agree that being locked to a randomly or semi-randomly occuring window would suck for a few reasons. 
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 3,020 Transcendent
    Deichtine said:

    Yea that is a massive derail. That's two different things. We have special and normal reports and envoys to fix up class specific issues.

    Fixing up the lack of pvp events and adjusting them is something we can do in tandem to normal reports.

    I'm just telling the truth. More PvP events would be great for some, miserable for others, depending on the rewards involved. If it's some kind of small reward that benefits your own org, that's fine. If it somehow is at the detriment of other orgs, that's 100% not fine.

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  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 2,016 Transcendent
    Carrot mechanics tend to be more enjoyable for everyone than stick mechanics. I'd pretty much agree with you totally on that Maligorn. More very frequent pvp events with an essentially token reward would be my concept. I don't think you need to put in a punishment aspect, don't see much need for that.
  • CrekCrek Member Posts: 263 Fabled
    I've actually been wanting to create a guild request that could easily be turned in to a conflict mechanism if the administration wanted to. Would give an outlet beyond just kick and runs or Faethorn scuffles.

    Hastily typed fake org version:

    The Lollipop guild of Wonkaville creates some candy macguffin. This candy is dormant and weak (maybe it is still sugar free?) until their friends from the Pie guild blesses the candy with some delicious high fructose corn syrup (blessed in the name of Crumkane of course). This sweet candy must then be shaped by the Keepers of the Diabetes guild. Over the course of a few days the Keepers continue to shape this candy, using sugar essence or something from Wonkaville. Once fully shaped in to a lollipop the three orgs hear from the High Muckamuck of Sugar who instructs the city to bury this lollipop in the Skarch Desert.

    Once buried, this lollipop bursts, saturating the area in the power of sugar. A plane wide announcement is given and the release of sugar power blinds Avechna so Avenger is no longer active in that area only. After a day the lollipop reforms, having drawn all the natural power from this location. Any Wonkavillian can then uproot the lollipop and place it in to the Great Gumdrop for power or some other benefit (maybe doubled sugar crystal growth upon the Plane of Glucose).

    But that's not all! At any time, the evil Skinnyfolks of Insulintopia could break the lollipop stick that has remained while power is gathered. Or they could wait for the lollipop to reform and uproot the candy by forcing their own macguffin atop the lollipop. The lollipop would then also be attuned to the Plane of Insulinia and the Insulintopians would be able to steal the lollipop for their own power gain.



    This is just a very rough idea but it'd give some obvious alternatives without forcing people to defend an area they did not ask to defend.

    The Divine voice of Ianir the Anomaly echoes in your head, "You are a ray of sunshine in a sea of 
    depression. I just wanted you to know that."
  • EnadonellaEnadonella Member Posts: 454 Expert
    Crek, I love this idea. But it doesn't solve the problem of pvpers not having anyone to pvp. I think the main problem is that one party wants to disco and the other wants to sit at home with a hot cup of tea and crochet. Both equally enjoyable tasks but not exactly something both parties can do together and derive any enjoyment out of it. How do we get the grandmas to disco?
  • PortiusPortius Likes big books, cannot lie Member Posts: 1,668 Transcendent
    Well, if the problem is not having people around to PvP, that comes down to scheduling. Other low population games tend to solve this issue by arranging specific times to play in order to concentrate the population. You can see a pretty decent example of this in the original Guild Wars, where the community organize weekly meetings for some of the PvP formats. You'll never get a match outside of those times, but it's easy to get them during.

    So, you could plan your raids in advance. Pick a day and a time. Post it in some public place, and try to get an idea of how many people are planning on coming. Those of you with alts can try to balance the sides out by logging into one or the other. To encourage people to actually take part and discourage rage, have a gentleman's agreement not to get in the way of collecting essence and such to recover the damage. You can even rotate attacker/defender roles to spread that part out.

    Or do it in the arena. I believe those are org-agnostic, right? So you should be able to bounce people around to get evenish teams regardless of alliances. Those don't even have negative consequences for losing, so probably easier to get casual people involved. If the format is an issue, beg the admin to add a raid arena game. Designate attackers and defenders, have some number (make it adjustable to account for different numbers of players, maybe? Or adjust the power level of the individuals) of smobs. Attacker wins if all smobs die, defenders win after X minutes.

    If people are worried about artifact or class balance, you can ask people not to use those things for some of the combat nights, but leave them on the rest of the time. Probably want a mix of both so people can feel like investing was a good choice, but still have combat options on a more even footing.

    The best part is that you can do this without any admin support. Just put up an announcement in a Discord/Clan/whatever, do a little administrative work to coordinate. But if people do it and the admin want to support it, they can probably do prize support pretty easily. Estarra truefavors, special trophy items for low effort/impact, or things like temporary culture boosts to orgs or honors lines with more effort. At the very least, it'd be nice for them to put up OOC announces a little bit in advance of each for the people who happen to be online but forgot about the plans.
    Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
  • EnadonellaEnadonella Member Posts: 454 Expert
    While I admit that timing can be a problem now and again. This isn't the crux of the problem here. As an example, earlier Deichtine and I went up to Nil (alone) and hit a few demons. There were five main combatants from the other alliance actively online that we could discern. Only two responded and that was to stand at the nexus for a minute before leaving again. 

    Now I understand just as well as anyone that at times you just don't have the ability to devote undivided attention to a fight. I will often engage in defence of my org while cooking dinner for my son or whatever just to show and get the raiders to bugger off. But this has been a continuous event for quite some time where the other side will show and just stand at the nexus. I'm not trying to shame anyone or call out orgs or alliances. This is just my current experience and it is certainly not just a recent one. This has been going on since before the alliance split. So if we could find out exactly why people are not engaging in defence/pvp, without becomming aggressive or blaming singular player but listing actual reasons of your own not to engage in combat, then maybe we can get somewhere. 

    Also...I think we need more battlechess tournies. Because they are the best. Or fate! I heard there was one once and it was spectacular.
  • SynlSynl Member Posts: 199 Adept
    1. This is a problem of perception and vocalization because none of you are responsible for this game. There is a handful of paid staff responsible for this game and ensuring that it is fun for all of us consumers. If they choose not to improve the game or identify the problem, then a) they lose consumers and b) there is no problem. I can think my car is screwy all I want, but if my mechanic says it's fine, chances are it's fine. This thread is a) trying to convince people that there is a problem where there may or may not be (totally valid) and b) trying to find solutions to said (potential) problem (also totally cool).

    2. People do take this game incredibly seriously. Has its advantages, for certain, but can also lead or be indicative of other health problems that need to be addressed sooner rather than later. Please ensure your own safety, happiness, and health before all else.

    3. I like the idea of raiding mechanics. This is not new territory, other games already do this, little reason I see we can't copy it to MUD systems. Learn from others' success, after all. But if admins do not feel it is warranted or if there is no problem, discussion is kinda moot.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 3,020 Transcendent
    edited July 2018
     How do we get the grandmas to disco?

     So if we could find out exactly why people are not engaging in defence/pvp, without becomming aggressive or blaming singular player but listing actual reasons of your own not to engage in combat, then maybe we can get somewhere. 


    Fix skillsets and artifacts. It's simple to say, obviously, and there's a lot of complexity in *how* to do this, but if you want people to engage you, they need to feel like they have a fighting chance (edit: without feeling the need to pay $$$$$ or an inordinate amount of time to catch up!!!). It should be raising red flags when defenders opt to not fight raiders even with discretionaries up.

    I'm 100% not being facetious and this is how I'd answer those questions.

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  • EnadonellaEnadonella Member Posts: 454 Expert
    edited July 2018
    I mean, I resonate with the point you make about artifacts on levels that frustrate me more than you know. When sparring and someone (WIFE!) totally not naming names...survives a double dchord it tilts me so hard. But that happens. You learn from it and move on.

    There is a degree of pay to win and while I have some artifacts I don't have nearly as many as others. For a long while there I didn't even have a RoA or a fitness rune and I was still doing okay. For a while there my only viable kill was soulless as Nihilist that had all her skills nerfed just before moving over...still did okay. That can not be the -only- reason people choose not to engage in pvp on an honest and real level. I started out as  combatant on the nexus client without an idea of what an alias or artifact even was! So there just has to be more to it. 

    I have offered to fight people 1v2 or 1v1 in Faethorn, spars, wargames, leave my entourage outside the arena, remove certain artifacts. I offer concessions when people list reasons not to fight me. But still nothing. Another way to gauge how serious this is are wargames. If you want a balanced fight you have it right there! People just seem reluctant to engage and I often muse over the idea that it is pure sportsmanship. I know there are certain people I will not spar simply because I do not like the type of winner/loser they are. And I am open to the idea that some people are just horribly mopey when they lose and so choose not to engage when that is a an option. And if that is the case then that is okay. But I know we are looking for a good fun wholesome challenging fight. We aren't looking to upset anyone. We come for the pvp, we pay for the pvp, we want the pvp. If I could make artifacts disappear I would. If I could find a way to make all of our skills balanced yet varied and enjoyable with quirks that offer a unique style without tipping the pvp world axis off kilter I would. But that isn't on us the players, so us attacking each other over it isn't bloody solving much now is it?

    Sidenote: While we are talking about 'balancing' skillsets I'd love to throw a shoutout to succumb and whatever that bs ninja balance thing is. :)
  • AnitaAnita Member Posts: 891 Transcendent
    edited July 2018
    While I admit that timing can be a problem now and again. This isn't the crux of the problem here. As an example, earlier Deichtine and I went up to Nil (alone) and hit a few demons. There were five main combatants from the other alliance actively online that we could discern. Only two responded and that was to stand at the nexus for a minute before leaving again. 


    Hi! I would just like to point out that it was me and Daebach, and I'm still learning how to use my skills, especially what I can do solo- in a group I know I can use a couple things to help but otherwise I'm clueless rn. I wanted to see who it was, and I know I can die to Deicthine in about 5 seconds or less. I logged in to RP and play with my manse, not to die over and over for mobs that you already killed. And our Demon Lords are immune to you right now because you already killed those too.

    just because you see our "main fighters" online, doesn't mean they are online. Some of them go put themselves in their manses before doing RL stuff, some you know, log in to do other stuff and don't want to fight either. Just because you do, doesn't mean everyone else does. I think that's what people forget sometimes. Also! Some of us are logged in via phones or tablets, and any combat is just a bit bananas for that.


    Edit: reading your later post---

    "We come for the pvp, we pay for the pvp, we want the pvp."-- from you.

    I feel like this is missed a lot -- from BOTH side of alliances -- not everyone wants pvp. Not everyone wants to do it every time they log in. This game isn't *just* a PvP game, it's rich with lore and RP possibilities everywhere. Everyone needs keep that in mind when you get no response despite seeing whoever online.
  • EnadonellaEnadonella Member Posts: 454 Expert
    I hear your reasoning and respect that is how to you roll. However, this isn't based on one incident. This is over six months of myself or others starting raids and having the same issue again and again. I want to see groups stepping off of their nexus and defending. And sure, there are going to be losses. But we aren't jerks about it, we want to encourage a healthy environment for us all to enjoy combat within. That is why I ask, what will it take for you guys to enjoy combat. Loses and wins. Nobody likes losing, not even me, and I sure as hell have enough experience in death to understand how it feels.

    I can't help but get the feeling that people just don't want to try because there is some myth we are invulnerable to death or something. Look, I spent a lot of time trying to convince my people that the avatars aren't all that and a bag of potato chips. And finally it paid off. I'm not saying you aren't up against some amazing brilliant talented heavily arti'd combatants. I'm saying you can come to the party, have fun, talk to us, ask us questions, step off of your nexus and sure tell us if you are too overwhelmed. Both Dei and I will step back if it means our people will get a decent fight out of it. I know a few others will too. We are an approachable mob that just wanna have fun. We love our combat! And if you want RP out of it you can probably get that too!
  • RasvinRasvin Member Posts: 44 Apprentice
    edited July 2018
    Anita said:
    While I admit that timing can be a problem now and again. This isn't the crux of the problem here. As an example, earlier Deichtine and I went up to Nil (alone) and hit a few demons. There were five main combatants from the other alliance actively online that we could discern. Only two responded and that was to stand at the nexus for a minute before leaving again. 


    Hi! I would just like to point out that it was me and Daebach, and I'm still learning how to use my skills, especially what I can do solo- in a group I know I can use a couple things to help but otherwise I'm clueless rn. I wanted to see who it was, and I know I can die to Deicthine in about 5 seconds or less. I logged in to RP and play with my manse, not to die over and over for mobs that you already killed. And our Demon Lords are immune to you right now because you already killed those too.

    just because you see our "main fighters" online, doesn't mean they are online. Some of them go put themselves in their manses before doing RL stuff, some you know, log in to do other stuff and don't want to fight either. Just because you do, doesn't mean everyone else does. I think that's what people forget sometimes. Also! Some of us are logged in via phones or tablets, and any combat is just a bit bananas for that.


    Edit: reading your later post---

    "We come for the pvp, we pay for the pvp, we want the pvp."-- from you.

    I feel like this is missed a lot -- from BOTH side of alliances -- not everyone wants pvp. Not everyone wants to do it every time they log in. This game isn't *just* a PvP game, it's rich with lore and RP possibilities everywhere. Everyone needs keep that in mind when you get no response despite seeing whoever online.
    Then don't PvP. No one is hunting you down to kill you. However, I have been hunted down a couple of times. I have killed one person outside of raiding. Non-smob raiding has very little consequence. The loss can little be offset by 10 nexuslinks on astral. Smob-raiding is so infrequent that Hallifax has existed for years without having their generator go down. The last smob-raid other than one sphere dropping was Vortex being cleared just so everyone is aware. 

    It is simple if you don't want or feel like pvping don't. However, smob-raids are rare. 
  • AnitaAnita Member Posts: 891 Transcendent
    Hi @Rasvin! I'm increasingly aware that you're not reading what people are typing, rather selective reading.

    "Then don't PvP." --
    For one, I never posted that someone was hunting me down.
    Secondly, I literally just said that people, like some of our main fighters, log in and want to do other stuff. So when they don't respond to raids, they're doing just that. Not pvping. Which apparently is a problem???? People are choosing not to respond, they don't want to fight right then. It's not always going to be the "right time" for anyone, unless there's something like the ideas already presented to schedule stuff.
  • KaliKali Member Posts: 148 Master
    edited July 2018
    I know I don't really fight or anything, but, here's my two cents! Encouraging people to not participate in pvp ends up hurting both the side with people quitting the pvp scene (less fighters mean the existing fighters stand less of a chance, therefor less fun) and the side without people leaving pvp (less enemies means less people to kill, therefor less fun.) The point of the thread was to voice concerns about the current situation, and propose ideas to fix it up. I see no reason that a compromise of sort can't be reached, with raiders able to spontaneously try to initiate pvp, while having defending feel more worthwhile and less like an endless struggle where you accomplish nothing. If more people start having fun while defending, everyone wins!

    EDIT: also, on raids 'taking nothing to regain': The forests have to manually repopulate their daughters/ladies on ethereal by gathering fae.
  • EnadonellaEnadonella Member Posts: 454 Expert
    Anita said:

    Secondly, I literally just said that people, like some of our main fighters, log in and want to do other stuff. So when they don't respond to raids, they're doing just that. Not pvping. Which apparently is a problem???? People are choosing not to respond, they don't want to fight right then. It's not always going to be the "right time" for anyone, unless there's something like the ideas already presented to schedule stuff.
    I'm not trying to be antongonistic here, just, if they want to do other things standing grouped at the nexus does not give me that impression. It gives me massive smoke signals that scream "We are going to fight you hold up!" and I am not about to leave if I think you are going to fight. I don't know if perhaps there was a misunderstanding about this. But if we come to fight and you all stand there grouped like you are going to fight we wait for the damn fight! If you vanish 9/10 times we do too! Sometimes, especially if it is in retaliation to an earlier attack when I wasn't available to defend, I'll clear the plane.

    Having some clear communication around why we all do the things we do might help to resolve some of the issues we are having. Because believe me if I see you come up when I am raiding I automatically assume you are ready to go! I don't think, 'Aw they just came to check out who is raiding.' because that is what powerlogs are for!
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,869 Transcendent
    Rasvin said:

    Don't make this personal, and I wont.

    I wasn't, but evidently you seem to be fine in doing so, so hey if you want to make this personal fine, let's go.

    Rasvin said:

    I feel as if you lost a logical debate so you had to state how you "feel", but you did not explain why you feel that way.
    Except I had edited down the original comment and your reply to the bits that highlighted where you completely failed at reading comprehension, something you demonstrate here when responding to other people.

    Trust me, there was nothing logical about your statement, especially when you then edited this little nugget in an hour later.

    Rasvin said:

    If you are suggesting it is because I inverted the worst for defenders... then the logic still applies. You still compared apples to oranges. The best for one and the worst for one. 

    Except it really doesn't, because defenders don't get to pick the time these incidents occur, you can't defend against thin air. The entire point is that it's at the attacker's discretion, and they're establishing a scenario where their worst case situation is a minor loss, while the best a defender can do is maintain the status quo. I mean if you want to invert it then it means the best case for an attacker is they cause major setbacks to an org, requiring them to do a lot of work just to clean up, and the worst case for the defenders is hours of grinding to fix the mess the attackers made. That really doesn't help your argument, so I'm not really sure how you consider your argument logical here, the point is there is no win condition for defenders beyond "things stay the same" and the worst condition for an attacker is they lose a bit of essence (which is easily regained) 

    I mean if you're trying to debate me, the last thing you would expect someone logical to do is reinforce my point. For someone spouting off about logic, that's a very illogical thing to do.

    Rasvin said:

     You didn't clarify if you were talking about smob raids or just raids, but it is clear that you mean all raids at this point.
    Congratulations, your reading comprehension maybe isn't that bad after all. So now you've demonstrated a capacity for it, logic dictates you're maybe not inable to, but more you choose not to in an act of trolling people.

    Rasvin said:

    As you stated every other avenue has a window, and I miss everything except wild nodes. I also miss parts of it. 
    We all do, it sucks. Which is why I suggested visible windows for everything, the same way we have domoth timers.

    Because y'know, the best way to get actual fights is to have everyone know when it's going to happen. You give things a vulnerability timer in other games, you have people race to defend it and others to knock it out. Though that being said...

    Rasvin said:

    A. People don't have to defend.

    Well that's a surefire way to make sure there's no PK, letting people know they don't need to turn up to it. Then all you have is a glorified PvE bash that would just be you whacking over a bunch of mobs and flexing about it, while nobody is around to oppose you. Oh wait, that's already most of your "raids" unless you're backed up by other people to bail you out.

    Rasvin said:

    Giving raids a clear window just limits when someone who does want to PK can PK. 
    Yes, but let's be honest here, if you wanted PK you wouldn't wait till everyone logs out before hitting things.

    Also while I'm dissecting things here.


    People don't play the game the way I want them to at a time convenient of my choosing.

    A TL:DR of your commentary throughout.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


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