On the mechanics of raiding - reflections and brainstorming

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  • JolantheJolanthe Member Posts: 517 Fabled
    Okay. What about prime territories and god realms?
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 3,020 Transcendent
    Jolanthe said:
    Am I the only one who thinks raid-windows will only encourage even more kick and run shenanigans? Especially when the kicker knows that their org's window will be while they're offline anyways, and they can just hide in their untouchable org territory anytime someone shows up, with no possibility for immediate retribution of any kind.

    Interesting insight. What if the two diametrically opposed planes became vulnerable. So Celestia/Nil, Continuum/Vortex, and EthSeren/EthGlom went together. That would alleviate your problem, if in a bit of a roundabout way.

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  • LuceLuce Fox Populi Member Posts: 2,573 Transcendent
    Jolanthe said:
    Okay. What about prime territories and god realms?
    What's stopping that from happening now, exactly?
  • JolantheJolanthe Member Posts: 517 Fabled
    Luce said:
    Jolanthe said:
    Okay. What about prime territories and god realms?
    What's stopping that from happening now, exactly?
    When Danquik quit Gaudiguch, he did some raiding on the outer planes. When that garnered no results/reactions, he didn't mind going into the prime city just to kill denizens there.

    If someone wants to raise a ruckus and you take their other options, they will begin to consider what's left.

    God realms get raided with some regularity as is. Maybe not your god realms, but again, what's to stop people if there's nothing else on the menu?

  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,869 Transcendent
    edited July 2018
    Jolanthe said:
    Am I the only one who thinks raid-windows will only encourage even more kick and run shenanigans? Especially when the kicker knows that their org's window will be while they're offline anyways, and they can just hide in their untouchable org territory anytime someone shows up, with no possibility for immediate retribution of any kind.

    Immediate no, but most people here can bear grudges for months, waiting a few days isn't out of the ordinary.

    Edit, their own territory isn't untouchable, you just can't kill the loyals. Might also make them non aggressive during that period.

    Also, godrealms are already technically on a window, ever since the Eventru nerf to their spawntimes, and Prime raiding has too many drawbacks to be worth it to attackers.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • LuceLuce Fox Populi Member Posts: 2,573 Transcendent
    I will say that any timers should not line up perfectly with a real life day, otherwise you'll end up in a situation where eg Hallifaxian B'ob S'mixia from Australia is never able to hit either Halifax's window or Gaudiguch's without setting an alarm or staying up late.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 3,020 Transcendent
    edited July 2018
    I also want to say that if people are worried about raid restrictions limiting PvP, I want you to know that there are plenty of domoths where you can voluntarily upgrade when you know enemies are around. Just throwing that out there. If windows are introduced, you will actually have to do this if you actually want PvP. Same with absolving.

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  • VersaleanVersalean Member Posts: 1,109 Transcendent
    Maligorn said:
    Jolanthe said:
    Am I the only one who thinks raid-windows will only encourage even more kick and run shenanigans? Especially when the kicker knows that their org's window will be while they're offline anyways, and they can just hide in their untouchable org territory anytime someone shows up, with no possibility for immediate retribution of any kind.

    Interesting insight. What if the two diametrically opposed planes became vulnerable. So Celestia/Nil, Continuum/Vortex, and EthSeren/EthGlom went together. That would alleviate your problem, if in a bit of a roundabout way.
    I like this, but I also love the ideological gymnastics that go on in the Basin as people ICly draw and redraw these battlelines. Hard coding the planes in this way would, for instance, make a Celest/Mag or Wyrd/Wilde alliance much more difficult. I say this assuming that such antagonistic mechanics don't already exist - if that's incorrect then I'm talking out of my ass as usual.

    --------------------

    One thing I've always wanted to see in an IRE, and which I think would encourage more conflict, is to see more joining of dots between the mechanisms of conflict. To a large degree what follows is completely blue sky thinking, and as somebody who doesn't code and doesn't yet understand the intricacies of conflict, I hesitate to suggest it as actual solutions, but perhaps it could provide a breakout from conventional thinking:

    Feed-In System

    Scenario 1

    Dei and Ena attack EtherSeren, which is being defended by Avu and Nic. The attackers are being supported by a unit of mobs who harry the defenders. Avu and Nic successfully slay the mob mob and then repel the attackers. The attackers fall back to EtherGlom where another unit of mobs has just stepped through the nexus and are ready to join the next push. Where the hell are all these mobs coming from? They're marching over from Stewartsville, which Glom won in the last revolts. But why are the mobs marching from Stewartsville? Because Ver is in Stewartsville giving a rabble-rousing speech (i.e., influencing).

    Scenario 2

    Avu and Nic attack EtherGlom, and the only person awake in Glomdoring is Ver. Ver knows that if he leaves prime he's gonna get his boughs shoved up his treehollow, but there is something else he can do instead of turning off CT or sending sarcastic tells to the attackers. He heads over to Stewartsville and starts rabble-rousing. Fired up, mob units start to head over to EtherGlom, where - for lack of anyone telling them to attack stuff - they automatically start to defend the Daughters. These mobs are unlikely to stop the raid altogether, but they can sure as hell slow it right down.

    Scenario 2b

    After about 5 minutes of wading through Stewartsville bladefodder, Avu and Nic get pissed, so they tell one of their own noncoms - Gef - to go over to Stewartsville and either shatter Ver or start a counter campaign of influencing that weakens the mobs leaving Stewartsville.
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 2,016 Transcendent
    Maligorn said:
    I also want to say that if people are worried about raid restrictions limiting PvP, I want you to know that there are plenty of domoths where you can voluntarily upgrade when you know enemies are around. Just throwing that out there. If windows are introduced, you will actually have to do this if you actually want PvP. Same with absolving.

    We do that currently. Last absolve I was in was that epic 3v11 fight.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 3,020 Transcendent
    Versalean said:
    Maligorn said:
    Jolanthe said:
    Am I the only one who thinks raid-windows will only encourage even more kick and run shenanigans? Especially when the kicker knows that their org's window will be while they're offline anyways, and they can just hide in their untouchable org territory anytime someone shows up, with no possibility for immediate retribution of any kind.

    Interesting insight. What if the two diametrically opposed planes became vulnerable. So Celestia/Nil, Continuum/Vortex, and EthSeren/EthGlom went together. That would alleviate your problem, if in a bit of a roundabout way.
    I like this, but I also love the ideological gymnastics that go on in the Basin as people ICly draw and redraw these battlelines. Hard coding the planes in this way would, for instance, make a Celest/Mag or Wyrd/Wilde alliance much more difficult. I say this assuming that such antagonistic mechanics don't already exist - if that's incorrect then I'm talking out of my ass as usual.


    The only real downside would be that they'd have to defend 2 vulnerable planes instead of just 1. So theoretically, Seren/Glom/Hallifax would all 3 have to defend EthSeren and EthGlom during the opening. If you wanted to smob raid, you have to focus on just one for a long length of time. So I feel like the outcome is the same. Plus, that means the opposing alliance Celest/Mag/Gaudiguch has the same problem for Celestia and Nil.

    Of course, worst case scenario, both groups of smobs are wiped, but that would be the harshest mechanical price to pay for allying your worst enemy.

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  • MoiMoi Member Posts: 1,213 Transcendent
    So a thought that I've been having for a while now: Is the problem actually with raiding, or with the specific kind of raiding that follows supermob raids? The kind where you have people camping essence 24/7, prime raiding to kill denizens involved in the power quest, killing anyone who tries to raise the dead supermobs. Disincentivizing THAT sort of raid would be much easier and less broadly disruptive than changing how raiding in general works - you'd just have to adjust how supermobs get raised (or impose narrow limits/penalties on raiding during those times) in order to make raiding to stop it a non-starter.
  • JolantheJolanthe Member Posts: 517 Fabled
    Moi said:
    So a thought that I've been having for a while now: Is the problem actually with raiding, or with the specific kind of raiding that follows supermob raids?
    I think this is part of the problem we're having with this conversation - we're supposedly concerned about any form, but any specification has been kept vague. So until there's clarity, it's going to be difficult to figure out who is agreeing/disagreeing with precisely what.

    Example: Karlach is dismissive of prime raiding potentially becoming more problematic, but he might simply be thinking of defending prime mag territory only, as opposed to prime seren. There are differences.

    And what exactly would the rules be with elemental planes? Invuln for elemental lords only? If it applies to essence carrying things too, then you're creating inconvenience when your smobs drop and there's no one online in that org to share their essence with you (whether they'd be inclined to or not).

    If you can't hit anything on an elemental plane, but are still permitted entry to roam/explore - presumably so you can still chase down kick-and-runners who are hiding - then org-aligned people can still get jumped on those planes, and you simply remove mobs from the equation.

    And then Faethorn is still a thing. If the argument is a perpetual feeling of loss/defeat tied into roleplay occupation of territory, I think either forest will still get this feeling from Faethorn not being "safe" relative to their own ethereal territory. Is the difference enough to be okay/tolerable? Even if it is now, is there any reason that sentiment isn't liable to change in the (near) future?


  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,869 Transcendent
    Prime raiding is generally complex because of Avechna giving defenders a major advantage. Once they've died once, the enemy has suspect. After that they can take the attacking force apart piecemeal and the other aggressors are locked out of conflict.

    Between that and the ability to guard stack drop and statues/totems granting major hindering advantages, prime raiding with any opposition to stop you is an uphill battle.


    As to your elemental question, essence mobs aren't loyal.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • MoiMoi Member Posts: 1,213 Transcendent
    @Jolanthe An example of a minimal interference change for post-supermob raiding would be to remove the essence requirement to revive supermobs and instead use nexus world critters being put into the appropriate location to revive them at the same rate. The nexus worlds would be set to expel all org enemies whenever a supermob is dead.

  • AeldraAeldra , using cake powered flight Member Posts: 1,203 Transcendent

    Moi said:
    So a thought that I've been having for a while now: Is the problem actually with raiding, or with the specific kind of raiding that follows supermob raids? The kind where you have people camping essence 24/7, prime raiding to kill denizens involved in the power quest, killing anyone who tries to raise the dead supermobs. Disincentivizing THAT sort of raid would be much easier and less broadly disruptive than changing how raiding in general works - you'd just have to adjust how supermobs get raised (or impose narrow limits/penalties on raiding during those times) in order to make raiding to stop it a non-starter.

    For me personally it is this kind of scenaro:

    enter alfred. Alfred is feeling like raiding Magnagora. He's got a cubix so he can get around easily, plus a few other travel related artifacts. Alfred is, for the most part, alone. Maybe he's joined by a few companions. Alfred jumps onto Nil. He kills the mobs there. Bob comes up to defend, so does Jane. Bob and Jane hunt down Alfred and slay him, but Alfred manages to take out Jane. Five minutes later, Alfred is back, this time on Earth. Bob and Jane move to hunt him down again, but Alfred feels like he just wants to tackle Jane. So He uses artis and escape skills to get himself out of earth and back into Nil, killing the mobs again to draw attention. Eventually, a few others who join in to hold down Alfred and a few people are also joined by Alfred. But as they're the minority, they keep doing this. Jumping between the elemental and the cosmic plane and killing the split up people. This goes on for four ooc hours, with bob and janes group wiping the attackers over eight times. The attackers, being continuously challenged and there being enough denizens left to draw attention, have no reason to stop and just can continue this and the defenders, not wanting to have their denizens die can continue to engage.

    I'm not saying that this kind of scenario isn't fun for some defenders too, but for me its actually the one that highlights my personal issues with raiding most. Some people will argue it is valid tactics and I'm not sure I can disagree with them fully. But for me, this is what degrades the encounter the most, being forced to endlessly chase someone and your kill on them not having any impact/reward at all / any progress towards actually winning the situation for you as defender.
    Avatar / Picture done by Xeii. Wheeeeee 
  • NicholoNicholo Member Posts: 48 Adept
    @Aeldra
    Would something simple like... granting your org power per enemy slain in the territory be incentive enough to actually want to go and kill/chase off intruders?

    This also means that we aren't necessarily punishing raiders for raiding, which seems to have a lot of push back, and instead rewarding defenders.
  • AeldraAeldra , using cake powered flight Member Posts: 1,203 Transcendent
    @nicholo I'm not sure. I think power in particular would not interest me. There's many sources of power these days... but I suppose if something interesting is found, maybe? Though I can't picture any incentive right now that would make this kind of raid less aggravating for myself. Not having the ability to score any kind of progress is a deterrent.
    Avatar / Picture done by Xeii. Wheeeeee 
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 2,016 Transcendent
    edited July 2018
    Thats kind of tricky Aeldra if you are constantly fighting david vs goliath numbers the only real way to fight that is to be smart and split the enemy group up.

    On top of that the defenses of the cosmic planes are quite stong. You'd find groups are more likely to stick to and raid one plane if the defenses were weaker there.

    And not to forget these "lure raids" we're seeing more often where people kick an angel and then retreat to their own cosmic planes because they want a fight but want the advantage of defenses and a safe guard spot. Which is a perfectly valid tatic to try and level the playing field if your struggling in open fights.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,869 Transcendent
    Yeah, the punch an imp and retreat to pitmense Celestia is a common one these days.

    I say these days, bait raids have happened since the dawn of time, kinda like bait posts.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 2,016 Transcendent
    I've not actually seen a proper celestia raid in some time aside from the failed supermob raid. Most of the fightings on Nil atm.
  • MinkahmetMinkahmet Member Posts: 104 Capable
    edited July 2018
    delete this comment please.
  • WobouWobou Member Posts: 142 Adept
    I'm late to the party but I want to throw support behind the idea that there should be a losing condition to raiding. I'm not 100% behind any of the ideas that I've read in terms of how to achieve that but I think that is a proper goal to have and if there is consensus around that idea it'd be a good place to start. It's hard for me to tell if there is consensus though, because often folks are disagreeing with a specific detail rather than the overall idea.

  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 8,210 Transcendent
    Deichtine said:
    I've not actually seen a proper celestia raid in some time aside from the failed supermob raid. Most of the fightings on Nil atm.
    I mean, that does tend to happen when you have an opposing org's ascendant feeding you information.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • AeldraAeldra , using cake powered flight Member Posts: 1,203 Transcendent
    Deichtine said:
    Thats kind of tricky Aeldra if you are constantly fighting david vs goliath numbers the only real way to fight that is to be smart and split the enemy group up.

    On top of that the defenses of the cosmic planes are quite stong. You'd find groups are more likely to stick to and raid one plane if the defenses were weaker there.

    And not to forget these "lure raids" we're seeing more often where people kick an angel and then retreat to their own cosmic planes because they want a fight but want the advantage of defenses and a safe guard spot. Which is a perfectly valid tatic to try and level the playing field if your struggling in open fights.

    Its why I hinted I can see its a possibly valid tactic. Its still, to me, very tiresome, annoying and frankly boring. You want a fight, sure. You want me to chase you around while you kick mobs ? Not interested, sorry ( the general you, not the specific you note, please :) ). IF the whole thing had something where I could actually gain something / reach a condition when the activity was lost for the attackers... things would be very different for me. Just my own personal opinion, am sure there's plenty others.
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  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 2,016 Transcendent
    @Aeldra Oh I agree with the chasing people around who just kick mobs, that is sort of annoying but I cant see it as a major issue as I can deal with that ICLY. Lots are things are annoying but I don't think they are actual issues.

    Xenthos and Feyr was a great example of how you can do this. Feyr was pretty much doing that to Shikari's god realms for ages, like on an extended basis. Xenthos got annoyed at this and started to go after Feyr. Debating him when he was influcing, slaying his beasts and generally trying to attack or get at Feyr a bunch. He made the offer that he'd stop "raiding" feyr when feyr stoping raiding Shikari. 

    Boom IC resolution to a kick and run raider.

    We can also just group up and go and murder the offender and raid their stuff instead.

    Kick and run raiding to me is an annoyance but not really an issue because theres so much you can do against it.
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 2,016 Transcendent
    @Shaddus You are wrong about that but can't disscuss it atm.
  • MinkahmetMinkahmet Member Posts: 104 Capable
    edited July 2018
    I do wonder how frequent these so called hit an imp and run to pit-melded Celestia? We rarely ever have a melder that's active and a pitter for that kind of nonesense. I can only get from that is the referencing to Romaan and Auriella. Literally the only two that fits the description and thats active out of the horrifically low pbase in Celest to be considered "recent".  We simply go in and kill demons and anyone that helps with the defense of said demons or not at all. So I don't buy that and is just a successful attempt to bait a response to the comment that is entirely false and doesn't provide several examples to be rendered as recent. As far as the smob raiding is concerned, both attempts at a smob raid on Celestia failed due to terrible and I do mean terrible strategies that seem to be from those that repeat the same mistake(s) as before and didn't learn anything from it and are quite reckless about it. Alas, what do I know? 
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 6,931 Transcendent
    Shaddus said:
    Deichtine said:
    I've not actually seen a proper celestia raid in some time aside from the failed supermob raid. Most of the fightings on Nil atm.
    I mean, that does tend to happen when you have an opposing org's ascendant feeding you information.
    ??  Are we talking about Avurekhos?  He tells me when something is up with clairsentience/farscout, so I know when to look for things.  Like masses of Magnagorans showing on EWHO on Nil, then Celestia.  And there are a couple of us who check EWHO regularly (it wasn't even me who caught it first this time).

    PS: EWHO is pretty great, if you have that artifact.  For all kinds of things.  Shows you any ungemmed person in the entire game, along with room name and plane.
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  • AeldraAeldra , using cake powered flight Member Posts: 1,203 Transcendent
    As far as I am concerned my choice of using "Magnagora" in my example was entirely random, just to clarify this. Was intentionally not targetting anyone in specific.

    For my personal take away, I am personally 100% fine to just ignore anything raid related as I see fit. After three years at this game am distant enough to just shrug and ignore it ( if thats good is another question ). However, I still stand by it that I do see, based on the discussions that spring up after nearly long and annoying raids, that pointless defense / defense without any means of progress degrades an orgs morale to the point that people simply just log off. Its something that I still feel it should be addressed -somehow-, regardless how the solution looks in the end.

    Some people just enjoy PK regardless when it happens or how. Others want their actions to have some impact. Death in lusternia means literally nothing at the point at which nearly all raiders are at and so, there's no kind of feeling of satisfaction having successfully defeated an enemy. They'll just redef and reappear as if they were never taken down. If I kill a bunch of people in a village revolt, it means I've bought my own people time to influence / protected my influencers. In wildnodes I gain possibly a node or at least got closer to getting a node. In defense? I get nothing.

    I'm thankful for the people who actually tried and listen.
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  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 2,016 Transcendent
    I do like the concept of getting power or something for murdering a raider.

    Atm we do get a mechanical reward for killing raiders in the form of family honour but thats limited to people in families.
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