On the mechanics of raiding - reflections and brainstorming

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  • RasvinRasvin Member Posts: 44 Apprentice
    Anita said:
    Hi @Rasvin! I'm increasingly aware that you're not reading what people are typing, rather selective reading.

    "Then don't PvP." --
    For one, I never posted that someone was hunting me down.
    Secondly, I literally just said that people, like some of our main fighters, log in and want to do other stuff. So when they don't respond to raids, they're doing just that. Not pvping. Which apparently is a problem???? People are choosing not to respond, they don't want to fight right then. It's not always going to be the "right time" for anyone, unless there's something like the ideas already presented to schedule stuff.
    Let me connect the dots. I do speak above people sometimes. I think this may be the issue. You stated you logged in to not PK. You implied that you had to PK. Forced PK is only when you are hunted down and forced to fight or run. You chose to PK. I hope this helps you understand that I read your entire post. My logic is that your implication that PK is forced is untrue and silly. Except for the times you are hunted down. This is why I included that.  

    By the way, this post just contradicted your first post. You admitted people don't respond, but you implied you have to respond in your earlier post. 
  • RasvinRasvin Member Posts: 44 Apprentice
    Karlach said:
    Rasvin said:

    Don't make this personal, and I wont.

    I wasn't, but evidently you seem to be fine in doing so, so hey if you want to make this personal fine, let's go.

    Rasvin said:

    I feel as if you lost a logical debate so you had to state how you "feel", but you did not explain why you feel that way.
    Except I had edited down the original comment and your reply to the bits that highlighted where you completely failed at reading comprehension, something you demonstrate here when responding to other people.

    Trust me, there was nothing logical about your statement, especially when you then edited this little nugget in an hour later.

    Rasvin said:

    If you are suggesting it is because I inverted the worst for defenders... then the logic still applies. You still compared apples to oranges. The best for one and the worst for one. 

    Except it really doesn't, because defenders don't get to pick the time these incidents occur, you can't defend against thin air. The entire point is that it's at the attacker's discretion, and they're establishing a scenario where their worst case situation is a minor loss, while the best a defender can do is maintain the status quo. I mean if you want to invert it then it means the best case for an attacker is they cause major setbacks to an org, requiring them to do a lot of work just to clean up, and the worst case for the defenders is hours of grinding to fix the mess the attackers made. That really doesn't help your argument, so I'm not really sure how you consider your argument logical here, the point is there is no win condition for defenders beyond "things stay the same" and the worst condition for an attacker is they lose a bit of essence (which is easily regained) 

    I mean if you're trying to debate me, the last thing you would expect someone logical to do is reinforce my point. For someone spouting off about logic, that's a very illogical thing to do.

    Rasvin said:

     You didn't clarify if you were talking about smob raids or just raids, but it is clear that you mean all raids at this point.
    Congratulations, your reading comprehension maybe isn't that bad after all. So now you've demonstrated a capacity for it, logic dictates you're maybe not inable to, but more you choose not to in an act of trolling people.

    Rasvin said:

    As you stated every other avenue has a window, and I miss everything except wild nodes. I also miss parts of it. 
    We all do, it sucks. Which is why I suggested visible windows for everything, the same way we have domoth timers.

    Because y'know, the best way to get actual fights is to have everyone know when it's going to happen. You give things a vulnerability timer in other games, you have people race to defend it and others to knock it out. Though that being said...

    Rasvin said:

    A. People don't have to defend.

    Well that's a surefire way to make sure there's no PK, letting people know they don't need to turn up to it. Then all you have is a glorified PvE bash that would just be you whacking over a bunch of mobs and flexing about it, while nobody is around to oppose you. Oh wait, that's already most of your "raids" unless you're backed up by other people to bail you out.

    Rasvin said:

    Giving raids a clear window just limits when someone who does want to PK can PK. 
    Yes, but let's be honest here, if you wanted PK you wouldn't wait till everyone logs out before hitting things.

    Also while I'm dissecting things here.


    People don't play the game the way I want them to at a time convenient of my choosing.

    A TL:DR of your commentary throughout.
    Karlach said:
    Rasvin said:

    Don't make this personal, and I wont.

    I wasn't, but evidently you seem to be fine in doing so, so hey if you want to make this personal fine, let's go.

    Rasvin said:

    I feel as if you lost a logical debate so you had to state how you "feel", but you did not explain why you feel that way.
    Except I had edited down the original comment and your reply to the bits that highlighted where you completely failed at reading comprehension, something you demonstrate here when responding to other people.

    Trust me, there was nothing logical about your statement, especially when you then edited this little nugget in an hour later.

    Rasvin said:

    If you are suggesting it is because I inverted the worst for defenders... then the logic still applies. You still compared apples to oranges. The best for one and the worst for one. 

    Except it really doesn't, because defenders don't get to pick the time these incidents occur, you can't defend against thin air. The entire point is that it's at the attacker's discretion, and they're establishing a scenario where their worst case situation is a minor loss, while the best a defender can do is maintain the status quo. I mean if you want to invert it then it means the best case for an attacker is they cause major setbacks to an org, requiring them to do a lot of work just to clean up, and the worst case for the defenders is hours of grinding to fix the mess the attackers made. That really doesn't help your argument, so I'm not really sure how you consider your argument logical here, the point is there is no win condition for defenders beyond "things stay the same" and the worst condition for an attacker is they lose a bit of essence (which is easily regained) 

    I mean if you're trying to debate me, the last thing you would expect someone logical to do is reinforce my point. For someone spouting off about logic, that's a very illogical thing to do.

    Rasvin said:

     You didn't clarify if you were talking about smob raids or just raids, but it is clear that you mean all raids at this point.
    Congratulations, your reading comprehension maybe isn't that bad after all. So now you've demonstrated a capacity for it, logic dictates you're maybe not inable to, but more you choose not to in an act of trolling people.

    Rasvin said:

    As you stated every other avenue has a window, and I miss everything except wild nodes. I also miss parts of it. 
    We all do, it sucks. Which is why I suggested visible windows for everything, the same way we have domoth timers.

    Because y'know, the best way to get actual fights is to have everyone know when it's going to happen. You give things a vulnerability timer in other games, you have people race to defend it and others to knock it out. Though that being said...

    Rasvin said:

    A. People don't have to defend.

    Well that's a surefire way to make sure there's no PK, letting people know they don't need to turn up to it. Then all you have is a glorified PvE bash that would just be you whacking over a bunch of mobs and flexing about it, while nobody is around to oppose you. Oh wait, that's already most of your "raids" unless you're backed up by other people to bail you out.

    Rasvin said:

    Giving raids a clear window just limits when someone who does want to PK can PK. 
    Yes, but let's be honest here, if you wanted PK you wouldn't wait till everyone logs out before hitting things.

    Also while I'm dissecting things here.


    People don't play the game the way I want them to at a time convenient of my choosing.

    A TL:DR of your commentary throughout.
    If you don't understand comparing the best for one entity (apples) and the worst for one entity(oranges) are different things then I won't waste my time on you. 
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,869 Transcendent
    If you can't see the imbalance when comparing the best case scenario for defenders vs the worst for attackers, I agree you should stop wasting your time.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • EnadonellaEnadonella Member Posts: 454 Expert
    Perhaps reading comprehension isn't your thing...but at no point have I complained about timezones. I never do. I understand when I can give my all and when I can not and I don't let that get me down. But go ahead and make quotes up to suit your agenda. 
  • MoiMoi Member Posts: 1,213 Transcendent
    Xiran said:
    Idea for Serenwilde and Glomdoring: Contest before Queen Maeve
    Basically, a jousting or a display match roleplayed as arbited by Queen Maeve or Knight Aife where you show off your prowess, either in series of duels, free-for-all, or evenly made teams. It's by player honour instead of mechanical enforcement. So maybe we start in an arena and eventually move to Faethorn if the player trust holds.
    I would love to see something like this, even/especially as a player-run event. RP-wise, it make sense for Glomdoring and Serenwilde to be more cordial/willing to agree to a limited engagement than it does for other organizations - both are pro-Fae and both have made similar agreements in the past to punish faeslayers/eaf making/defend Faethorn from threats.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,869 Transcendent
    Perhaps reading comprehension isn't your thing...but at no point have I complained about timezones. I never do. I understand when I can give my all and when I can not and I don't let that get me down. But go ahead and make quotes up to suit your agenda. 
    No one mentioned timezones, I merely said at a time convenient to you. Your posts are commenting how you want people to come fight when you want them to, to act how you want them to, and if they don't, ask for a mechanic that forces them into playing your way.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • EnadonellaEnadonella Member Posts: 454 Expert
    I'll reiterate, perhaps reading comprehension is not your thing. 
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,869 Transcendent
    I'll reiterate, perhaps reading comprehension is not your thing. 
    Pot.Kettle.Black.

    But I digress, when you make statements such as "There were five main combatants from the other alliance actively online that we could discern." You're making the statement that because you see those five people, you expect them to react to you in a manner of your choosing at a time of your convenience. That you're essentially demanding other people play your game with you at that particular moment.

    Last I checked, you do not pay for other people's account membership, or fund their credits or pay them for logging on and spending their time with the express notion of entertaining you on demand. Yet your posts make statements that you expect people to play the game the way you want them to (Grannies to the disco springs to mind) 

    Also frankly, when you get as venomous as you do in game with the insults and foul language, it shouldn't be a surprise that people don't want to waste their time on you, especially if there are other things, in and out of game, that they can be doing.

    Now sure you can abuse/offtopic (despite this being related to the topic) and disagree with this all you like, but it's all there for people to see, and I'm hardly spouting a unique view here.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • SynlSynl Member Posts: 199 Adept
    Because the end of apartheid should have been a fucking bloodbath by any metric in human history, and it wasn’t. The only reason it wasn’t is because Desmond Tutu and Mandela and all these guys figured out that if a system is corrupt, then the people who adhere to the system and are incentivized by that system are not criminals. They are victims, and the system itself must be tried...

    Dave Chappelle, from The Bird Revelation. Mentioned this to some others on another medium. There's a lot of personal conflict in these discussions, and these types of niche games in general. But the person or the people are not the problem here. It is important to recognize if there is a problem, it is entirely the system. The players are all within that system and are, as such, victims of the system which incentivizes them to act in very specific manners. And the people responsible for that system are the ones at whom your anger or frustrations should be directed, because they are the ones with the power to change it. Not the players.

  • EnyaEnya Member Posts: 495 Expert
    So... what is your input to the topic at hand? 

    This thread has spiraled WAAAAY out past the topic, and there are a few specific culprits, all of whom appear to be on the side of "don't change anything" even though they aren't actually engaging with the thread itself. Funny how that works.

    I like the ideas for more combat events integrated with the game world. I don't think they will really directly fix the problem at hand, though. It's possible to curb the bad sorts of raids without de facto removing spontaneous raiding, and there have been some good ideas in the thread so far re: that. I'll go through in a minute and pull them together in one post, to get things back on track. 
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,869 Transcendent
    Nicholo said:

    I’m sorry but more often than not there’s someone waiting in the Fulcrux to jump in. Whether you called them for help or not, it happens. Maybe it wasn’t the case this time but it’s happened more than enough times that we come and next thing we know we have a swarm of more-experienced combatants on us.


    I’m not saying you shouldn’t do that. Baiting is a very valid strategy and part of what makes MUDs great is the sheer complexity of things you can do. I’m just saying that’s why we don’t really rush off Nexus to meet you anymore.

    This: It's a legitimate strategy but one we've become extremely aware of. More often than not when fights start now, I'm sat in my Torus fulcrux and calling out people moving through, or sitting around, so people know what to expect.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,869 Transcendent
    edited July 2018
    Synl said:
    Because the end of apartheid should have been a fucking bloodbath by any metric in human history, and it wasn’t. The only reason it wasn’t is because Desmond Tutu and Mandela and all these guys figured out that if a system is corrupt, then the people who adhere to the system and are incentivized by that system are not criminals. They are victims, and the system itself must be tried...

    Dave Chappelle, from The Bird Revelation. Mentioned this to some others on another medium. There's a lot of personal conflict in these discussions, and these types of niche games in general. But the person or the people are not the problem here. It is important to recognize if there is a problem, it is entirely the system. The players are all within that system and are, as such, victims of the system which incentivizes them to act in very specific manners. And the people responsible for that system are the ones at whom your anger or frustrations should be directed, because they are the ones with the power to change it. Not the players.


    I completely and vehemently disagree, this game has a sandbox element to it, when you can actively engage and target other organisations property and denizens you put control in the players hands to act as they wish.

    The solution there would be to make all denizens and loyal mobs invincible, this is an awful idea.

    Player behaviour, and how you choose to act in a multitude of circumstances is entirely our responsibility. "The game lets me do it, so there" is something I once wrote a long post on about my own days as a griefer, and how I'd come to reflect that while I could do things, and did do things, it wasn't entirely healthy for the game as a whole to do so. Trying to shift personal responsbility onto the admin that they should somehow police combat and our actions for the sake of the game's health is a cop out. They are not our babysitters, or our parents, or our nannies or anything else that would have them be some kind of guardian to make sure we all play nice in the sandbox.

    And if they were to get involved, you can be sure that the majority of pvpers would raise their arms up while shrieking of admin bias and godmodding. We've had admin before who overplayed their hand in mortal conflicts, and those days sucked for PK, because you were fighting more than just other players.


    So no, personal responsibility is a thing and should matter, if you want people to play with you, give them a reason to want to engage.
    Post edited by Karlach on

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • RasvinRasvin Member Posts: 44 Apprentice
    Nicholo said:

    I’ve always gotten grief for always raiding when it’s off-prime like I planned on it. I actually work really odd hours so I just play when I can. It’s obnoxiously self-centered when people assume that their timezone is the only timezone and I only raid when “nobody’s around” and I’ve been told that directly in-game.

    Ironically, people give me grief WHILE I’m raiding so clearly someone’s around. I actually use Stealth Waylay to check for enemies now that there’s no area restriction. SOMEONE’S around.

    It’s also extremely tacky to call someone trash or bad at combat or their “skills are broken” to their face. 

    THIS is how you get no PK. 

    I’m not going to defend my combat prowess, but that’s just a crap attitude. You want people to learn how to fight and partake in conflict systems? Don’t call them trash to their face or gloat after a kill with no precedent.

    Especially don’t whine to the opposition about their numbers. Deal with it. Combat was overhauled for groups. And as mentioned in these posts, no side is completely innocent.

    Don’t whine and talk to someone about their skills being broken. Whether it factually is or not, there’s Envoys for that. If it’s not explicitly flagged a bug, it’s fair game and it’s there to be used.

    Let’s stop acting like we’re above it all.

    And then this circles back to “Nexus sitting”.

    There are some groups and people that we absolutely refuse to fight outside of specific conditions.

    Classes balance aside, the sheer artifact imbalance is enough to dissuade someone. Let’s assume class strengths are equalized. I don’t think I know anyone outside of Marcella with a peppermint trueheal in Magnagora. Same with Wonderhorn summoning thing. Wonderbra Illself? Vitality pendants. IF we even get to a kill condition we get reset completely and die.

    Like, the worst example I can think of is two bards with whiplash and cement socks. Move and it’s an instant deathsong. I can’t move you and neither can I leave. I’ve literally had .5 seconds to truehearing + tumble on top of everything else.

    Now am I hating on you for the artifacts you bought? No. (Maybe a little because I’m poor.) But simultaneously you should understand why we refuse to fight specific groups/people all the time.

    Simultaneously, who do you even consider “Mag combatants?” More than half of our people are great and willing to help and will mash an attack repeatedly but most of them don’t know what they’re doing.

    What kill methods have you seen work and who executed them against your side? Serious question.

    As for your Nil raid?

    I’m sorry but more often than not there’s someone waiting in the Fulcrux to jump in. Whether you called them for help or not, it happens. Maybe it wasn’t the case this time but it’s happened more than enough times that we come and next thing we know we have a swarm of more-experienced combatants on us.

    I’m not saying you shouldn’t do that. Baiting is a very valid strategy and part of what makes MUDs great is the sheer complexity of things you can do. I’m just saying that’s why we don’t really rush off Nexus to meet you anymore.

    Side note: I’m from the opposite camp. I’m here primarily for PVP. TBH I get more depressed from RP than PVP lol.

    Edit: fixed weird line breaks from phone

    I know I do quip and say smart remarks, but you are one of the few I hesitate to rush in against for what it is worth. Not scared to die just trying to not fall to my own mistakes. Looking back, I should pony up and learn to just beat you. I apologize for giving you grief for wanting to fight. 

    I will say I think its so hard to not swarm. It's hard to know if you should jump in or not because a couple of seconds make the difference. Even though I have complained about (unjustly) it. Both sides I believe do this without meaning to. 

    I agree about the numbers, but I also think greater numbers used wisely can negate artifacts. You guys are using combos nicely some times.

    Furthermore, you guys should love me. I feel like I'm not incompetent, but I am easily killed. Slowly, getting better at not being killed. Although the introduction of Seren set me back a bit.
  • NicholoNicholo Member Posts: 48 Adept
    Tarken said:
    You're definitely not bad at combat
    If there's one thing I get from the dumpster fire this thread is becoming, it's that. Means a lot coming from you! \o/

    Also, mentioned this on the Discord server as one of the ideas for token competitions.

    Have Hallifax and Gaudiguch compete for claim over Tzaraziko's heritage! Debates on the Vernal's origins erupt into a showing of hands! (Let's do it after Halli rework tho lol)

  • SynlSynl Member Posts: 199 Adept
    edited July 2018
    Karlach said:
    Synl said:
    Because the end of apartheid should have been a fucking bloodbath by any metric in human history, and it wasn’t. The only reason it wasn’t is because Desmond Tutu and Mandela and all these guys figured out that if a system is corrupt, then the people who adhere to the system and are incentivized by that system are not criminals. They are victims, and the system itself must be tried...

    Dave Chappelle, from The Bird Revelation. Mentioned this to some others on another medium. There's a lot of personal conflict in these discussions, and these types of niche games in general. But the person or the people are not the problem here. It is important to recognize if there is a problem, it is entirely the system. The players are all within that system and are, as such, victims of the system which incentivizes them to act in very specific manners. And the people responsible for that system are the ones at whom your anger or frustrations should be directed, because they are the ones with the power to change it. Not the players.


    I completely and vehemently disagree, this game has a sandbox element to it, when you can actively engage and target other organisations property and denizens you put control in the players hands to act as they wish.

    The solution there would be to make all denizens and loyal mobs invincible, this is an awful idea.

    Player behaviour, and how you choose to act in a multitude of circumstances is entirely our responsibility. "The game lets me do it, so there" is something I once wrote a long post on about my own days as a griefer, and how I'd come to reflect that while I could do things, and did do things, it wasn't entirely healthy for the game as a whole to do so. Trying to shift personal responsbility onto the admin that they should somehow police combat and our actions for the sake of the game's health is a cop out. They are not our babysitters, or our parents, or our nannies or anything else that would have them be some kind of guardian to make sure we all play nice in the sandbox.

    And if they were to get involved, you can be sure that the majority of pvpers would raise their arms up while shrieking of admin bias and godmodding. We've had admin before who overplayed their hand in mortal conflicts, and those days *sucked* for PK, because you were fighting more than just other players.


    So no, personal responsibility is a thing and should matter, if you want people to play with you, give them a reason to want to engage.
    Everything you said is very obviously true in RL. Life has a sandbox element to it, you can activate engage and target other organizations property and other people, you are responsible for acting in a certain way because you can choose not to.

    It's a fairly short-sighted view because people do not choose to just act how they do. People act in manners which are biologically and socially (almost) pre-determined. The end result isn't moral absolution, obviously, and I did not think that I was arguing for moral absolution, just as I am not arguing for fatalism. But how the system molds us is a big part of why we do what we do, and the target of the solution needs to be the system and the people responsible for that system. At the end of the day, if you play to win, which all people do, not just gamers, then you will always work to create a situation where you have the advantage. So the ability to create those advantages either need to be lessened (via more and more control) or players need to accept the nature of the system and live as they can within it.

    Nowhere did I say anything about policing combat. So the last few paragraphs are a wash.

    Personal responsibility is a thing that exists, yes. You should not murder people, etc. However, you will note the system in place IRL heavily disincentivizes murdering people. Because if people could be expected to always police themselves for the greater good, oh man, we would be living in a very different world. So you're basically telling people to be better, which I do appreciate, but... a little naive and aimless, no?

    Anyways, I like the idea of a system of raid mechanics as a solution (again, IF there is a problem at all). Lots of MMO exist, lots of conflict systems exist. The RVR system of Warhammer Online remains one of my favourite systems, though obviously with its own set of flaws.

    1. Villages are split between the existing orgs, say 2 per org for this random example.
    2. Do random activities for your org to build an 'influence' meter visible to all.
    3. Villages will be locked out until your org reaches a certain influence threshold. At that point, tracked via the influence meter, an org can flip a village to their side. This is temporary.
    4. If you influence both villages loyal to another org, you can then invade the org directly. So access to the smobs, let's say.
    5. You can now kill the smobs.
    6. Those two villages automatically reset to their parent org after a short time, and are locked out for some time as they remember the atrocities you committed.

    War mechanics, obviously things can be changed. Idea is to have more things timed or be restricted to timed windows, and less random pvp.

    Oh, and look, none of this matters until the people who can actually code it and bring it into the system say something akin to 'Yes, this is a problem. Yes, we will fix it.'
  • StratasStratas Member Posts: 418 Mythical
    Synl said:

    Oh, and look, none of this matters until the people who can actually code it and bring it into the system say something akin to 'Yes, this is a problem. Yes, we will fix it.'
    The people who can actually code it and approve it and bring it into the system need to hear from the people who actually engage with it during playtime to even know that there's something that needs to be fixed. Acting like the admin are complacent or against the playerbase is a bit not helpful. Acting like there's not a problem because the admin haven't fixed it is a bit not helpful. If there is a decent thread on 'there is a problem, and here are various thoughts on how to fix it' then the admin will know something needs fixing, and can take any or all parts of the offered solutions, or Solution 4 it, and can dump another extensive coding problem on Ianir's already overfull workbench (He loves us so it's okay).

    I don't particularly think the 'RVR system' you suggested works within our current village framework (though at some point that might need a good looking at too) but it might be interesting for a non-village holding system.  Instead of villages, it's just pylons or something, and doing quests/activities/pvp against enemy pylons can disable them and the Smob shield they generate - not immediately, but a set amount of time later, and for a certain window of time, with warnings to would be defenders so everyone can coordinate a big PVP bash that actually has some parameters instead of 'some side is bored now'.
    The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure pure reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog!
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 6,931 Transcendent
    Saying that the administration "needs to hear in order to know that something needs to be changed" is, in this instance, entirely incorrect.

    They already know.

    What they do not have are: 1) An idea that they love to address it, and 2) The resources to code said change.

    Now, #1 may have changed since the last time they discussed this, but #2 sure hasn't.  There were not even the resources to do a real review of warriors and fix the problems inherent to the class' design, and a new conflict system is likely going to take more time than that would have.

    Offering ideas for things you would like to see is a good thing, though.  Maybe something will stick, or spark inspiration on their side.  Just can't expect anything to happen Right Away (and some of you really need to cool down on the rhetoric if you want your input to be taken seriously).
    image
  • SynlSynl Member Posts: 199 Adept
    Another thing is to remove the harm from losing things. So when you lose smobs, you don't lose out on power. But the winning org simply gains power or resources. Increase essence gain or whatever for pkills, and remove loss on death entirely. Losing things, however small or large, will always push people to a ''least risk' mindset. Reward players for winning, don't punish them for losing. In a game with infinite resources, should be the norm.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 6,931 Transcendent
    edited July 2018
    Now that I am home, I'd like to add a few more thoughts.

    I've been around Lusternia for a very long time now.  I've also been in the position of being a leader of an organization who went through a lot of the issues being discussed here and struggled to come up with ways to work to address it.

    For a long time, I was very aggressive in the "Limit raiding at all costs" mindset; I lived through the days of 10+ hour long raids on a near-daily basis.  I spent entire stretches of my day sitting at the archway in Ethereal Glomdoring with a trigger and a geyser enchantment to blast out hit-and-run raiders (ab)using off-balance flight with a broom (amongst many other things).

    While in charge of Glomdoring later, I-- and the other leaders-- implemented a strict policy of not allowing raiding and I learned that there are definite negatives to that as well.  People who wanted to fight either contented themselves with defending (of which there was a fair bit), or moved to another organization.

    There was no admin-coding for this.  We enacted it, we enforced it.  And guess what?  It led to the period of the strongest Glomdoring RP identity... but also to a place where only a small core of dedicated people could thrive.  It was very difficult for many new players to get into it (though the ones that could were great).  A lot of other people just left.  There was also a fair bit of infighting / maneuvering / etc. (politicking ended up becoming the only form of 'conflict' to get engaged in), and on the whole it ended up needing a change.

    I think Glomdoring is in a stronger place now, in general.  Our identity is nowhere near as vividly in-your-face now as it was then, but we have a much better diversity of player (in terms of what people enjoy doing).  We go out of our way to welcome new players in, we love when they stick around.  If they want to fight, we encourage them to join in.  And if they don't, that's okay too!  We still have some strong & excellent in-depth roleplayers to act as examples, we have loremasters who you can basically find out anything about the game's history from, and we have people who just like to help people.

    Why am I saying all this?  Because many of you are falling into the same trap that we did as an organization, but you're attempting to apply it to the game as a whole.  Lusternia is, at its roots, a conflict game.  There needs to be an avenue for conflict... and not just in windows of time, but when people are actively interested in pursuing it.  If that's what you're interested in, and you log on after work and find that the window's closed, what do you do?  Just log off?  Lusternia is better when it gives more options to pursue, not when it starts scaling back and restricting what you can do when you log in.

    At the same time, you have the people who are then not wanting to be a part of it who absolutely do feel the need to show up and defend (I've never really liked the "Don't show up," assertion, though I do opt out if I'm just not feeling it these days, when I was younger I never could and always stated that strongly in any thread / discussion on these lines when people tried to say it was 'optional').

    So here's the real question: How do you square these two things in a new conflict overhaul?  How do you provide an avenue for on-demand fighting, while also removing the 'obligation' of showing up for defenders?  The closest current system in existence are wargames or free-for-alls, but they always feel... lacking, to me.  There's no RP reason to them, they're not organization-based (working together for a common goal).  Domoths were supposed to be kind of that, but because players choose when to do them players often end up choosing the time of least resistance (just as raiding sometimes goes).

    Many things have been suggested over the years, but they all seem to be flawed in some manner or another, like the above.  Making windows just for regular raiding leaves people just missing out (I mean, I went over half a RL year in 2017 without seeing a village revolt, which feels pretty eugh!).  Adding new conflict events with windows means people wanting anything on-demand are still going to end up with old-fashioned raiding.

    You can't just give ideas to "nerf raiding" without a new system to replace it, one which takes into consideration both defenders and raiders.  It needs to provide an outlet for people who are interested, incentive to show up even if just on the fence, it needs to be available when someone logs on and decides they want to see if anyone wants to play, and also needs to allow for people to just opt-out (without feeling angst) if they aren't feeling interested.

    When you put those constraints on it, you can see why this has been such a thorny issue for so long.  It's really difficult to come up with something that checks off all the boxes.  But you need to check off all the boxes if you want the new solution to be a better situation for the game than the current one.  It's flawed, definitely.  It has been for a very long time.  It's a known issue.  But I've learned through experience that the only solution that can work really will be something that everyone can get behind enthusiastically.

    If you think you can thread the needle, this is a great place to put up some proposals in that regard!  But "Nerf raiding into the ground" isn't going to fly.  Neither is "Make raiding easier!"  "Add more conflict events!" doesn't really do a lot either (yes, we really need more conflict events, but it doesn't help with the on-demand thing and that's a lot of resources invested in something that will only minimally address the problem).
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  • RasvinRasvin Member Posts: 44 Apprentice
    Idea: (Could be bad ones)
    I seriously think essence blocking is pretty bad. It should be addressed. I suggested entities dropping essence. Also, I have not killed the new beast, but what if it could be used to raise smobs? I think the sting is a bit too harsh. Losing sheilds is a lot of build back. Also discussed a passive smob Regen.

    Have prime no-pk quests to buff smobs during a raid. Something even novices could do. This would require a warning and a delay to open up smob raiding. My thought is a quest to make smobs vulnerable.

    Smob aoe damage doesn't hit those of the same org. 

    Create a wargames tourney where orgs send teams to compete monthly with rankings. (This is just an easy alternative to PK).

    Allow defenders to take guards to defend. R=raiders D=citizens awake for the defendingdefe  G= guards that can assist
    (R-D)/3= G (AFK mansers would need to be thought about)

    Lower damage output of smobs that slowly increases on a timer. Increase the health of smobs drastically. Giving defenders time to assemble. I think a smob should take at least 15 rl minutes to take down, but I would be open to longer. That means at least an hour of raiding to kill all of an orgs smobs.

    Deaths to an smob stacks a debuff that reduces damage against smobs by -1 per death. 

    Fix Spectre isle so it's not easy to block spike Regen. Make a quest to move spectres to mag sewers? Never been in may sewers so keep that in mind.


  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,869 Transcendent
    Mag sewers randomly throw people into Muud. Not a great idea.

    Also requires a skill in environment to get there, so it's not ideally newbie friendly.

    I wouldn't change the power quest, as much as people have been infuriating attempts to keep the Necromentate alive the past weekend. It's a really fun quest and gives new players a good starting area to hunt in and progress through as they can take on stronger and stronger spectres.

    What would be nice is some way to deal with people griefing it, without messing with Avechna.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


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  • SynlSynl Member Posts: 199 Adept
    Is spectre isle not enemy territory? Seems an easy fix.

  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,869 Transcendent
    Synl said:
    Is spectre isle not enemy territory? Seems an easy fix.

    Nothing to be enemied to, all the mobs on the island have no loyalty.

    Now if when the Demon Lords are slain the Island falls under martial law of Magnagora and follows their enemies list as an annexed territory until raised then sure, that could be a thing, not sure how viable that is though.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 6,931 Transcendent
    Synl said:
    Is spectre isle not enemy territory? Seems an easy fix.

    Getting enemied to Spectre Isle for killing spectres would... kind of making it super easy to grief anyone trying to do the quest.  Seems counterproductive.
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  • EnadonellaEnadonella Member Posts: 454 Expert
    You can be enemied to Spectre Isle, just not for killing spectres.

    You are standing in Spectre Isle. (Enemy Territory)
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,869 Transcendent
    That's connected to SoD status?

    Would be easily bypassed and wouldn't fix the scenario Rasvin mentioned above.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • JolantheJolanthe Member Posts: 521 Fabled
    Celest has a similar situation with the Isle of Light, I think. It just hasn't come up lately.
This discussion has been closed.