As many of some of you may know, those who came to the IRE Meet was given a sneak preview of a proposal for a possible combat overhaul. We met and discussed the pros and cons, what players liked and didn't like and what the goals are. Below is an abbreviated version of the proposal. (Details in the full proposal are currently under review based on discussions). We still are not decided on fully committing to this project as it would suspend development for a very long period (possibly up to a year). However, we are looking at creating a basic version that people could test in the arena through character shells (see section on testing). This is a HUGE project and will not be taken lightly but please feel free to comment!
Yes. A thousand times yes to everything in the opening post.
I would like to reiterate that the cost of
fully committing to this project is pretty much putting all other
development on hold for up to a year. Would it still be desirable?
It would! Following through with this decision will not only transform the game experience for existing players, but could potentially draw in and retain more new ones who may have found combat too cumbersome. It is a long-term process, but I feel it will have a more profound, far-reaching impact on Lusternia relative to any planned content that is in store for the game.
"A man's not dead while his name is still spoken." - Terry Pratchett 1948-2015
I would like to reiterate that the cost of fully committing to this project is pretty much putting all other development on hold for up to a year. Would it still be desirable?
Yes, depending on whether there might be resources for smaller things it could also be in some way beneficial.
Like if the envoys took a breather from combat changes because they would ultimately be pointless and started looking at maybe some simple non-combat things, maybe on a reduced report cycle, with a disclaimer that "too complicated right now" is an appropriate response.
gogo tradeskill envoys!
I'm also wondering if the plan is to gut and recode the skills, or if the over all ability lists within each skill remain effectively the same with new afflictions?
I would like to reiterate that the cost of fully committing to this project is pretty much putting all other development on hold for up to a year. Would it still be desirable?
All good things come with time and patience, and often we must struggle through apparent stagnation to achieve a desired goal.
AKA: I'm not going anywhere. I'm pretty sure most of us won't. Update away.
Count me in to help however I can, sounds like a good solid base idea.
With some generalized 'core' mechanics making afflictions simpler and design more streamlined, classes/envoys can devote more time to devising interesting unique mechanics outside of afflicting, for a much more fun game.
I would like to reiterate that the cost of fully committing to this project is pretty much putting all other development on hold for up to a year. Would it still be desirable?
Speaking as someone who's been in and out over the last year, a moratorium on the "feature creep" you referred to at the top of the thread, would frankly be welcome. I know there's a drive to keep it fresh for the people here every day, but for others, it can be overwhelming to log in and see the wave of new stuff they have to learn/acquire - like the game has passed them by, they can't just jump in again.
It sounds like this project would pare it all down some, so people will only have to re-learn everything again once (as opposed to every time). If you go the whole nine and announce a launch date for the new system, that would probably draw a crowd of people looking to restart on more level ground (where everyone will be re-learning at the same time.)
When you refer to all other development - does that include events?
What would you do about the envoy system? Is there any point to spending a lot of time on stuff that's going to be replaced anyway?
I love the idea. As a follower of Morgfyre and Capitalism, I look forward to the change.
HOWEVER I must say I do have a few reservations. The reason I play this game over fancy graphic based games is quite simple. I LOVE THE CHALLENGE!!! There is very few games that you get this level of complexity in the gaming experience. Not only is it complex with the skills you use but it is complex with the afflictions you need to avoid.
Things do need to change and I think that is right but I do request that this is not ‘dumbed down’. The curve should not be as steep for newbies. It should be easy for people to get into and succeed with. That I agree on, but it should have depth for those who want to push on. Anyway I will stop so you can all tell me I am wrong
06/30/2014 19:37 Silvanus channels the power of the Megalith of Doom for you, stripping you of your Vernal Ascendant status.......bastard!!
I think in the long-term, the change will allow a lot of newer players who are semi-interested not to completely lose interest after the first few fights. It's just so difficult to get into. So much spam and so little understanding of what to do to help, right now.
Oh, another question, how visible will this be to the players?
While direct input such as designing the afflictions and synergies I feel would be out of the question especially given past experiences, It could be interesting to have say... maybe a week or two for each archetype right at the start to present how they might be changed by this.
And following that, perhaps some time discussing orgs simply because it would be nice to see perhaps more interplay between the guilds in an org. I suppose the best example would be that I'd find it personally really interesting if there was a synergy or little bonus for the Moondancers and Hartstone combining their powers in a group setting.
Overall, because this is a project that we're all generally going to know about, an open flow of communication could potentially allay the feeling that nothing is happening because we'll be discussing it all year and this could bridge the gap between the start of the project and when the first test characters are accessible.
What developments are gonna be put on hold? What happens to envoys?
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
And am I correct in thinking that 'affliction levels' = the Lithmeria aff system?
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
And am I correct in thinking that 'affliction levels' = the Lithmeria aff system?
I thought it was more like...
You have flame afflictions as a category with like... singed, burned, on fire, charred, extra crispy.
And generally you might be able to access "singed" or "burned", but only certain guilds might get "on fire" or "charred" where the pyros might be the only ones able to give "extra crispy".
Envoy system would be either pared down or asking for feedback on the test shells. Of course, big bugs would be addressed.
We would test through character shells that can be used in arena duels. Obviously, if it takes as long as we suspect and if character shells would be released throughout the process, it would be pretty visible!
I don't know anything about Lithmeria's affliction system so can't say if it's similar or not!
I would like to reiterate that the cost of fully committing to this project is pretty much putting all other development on hold for up to a year. Would it still be desirable?
A few people have commented on this but not flat out asked, so for clarity: when you say 'all other development' do you mean specifically coding-based development or everything (i.e. not just coding but RP events etc).
1
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
By the way, the new cooking curios are exactly the kind of feature creep we are talking about. Since having the complete set offers a critical hit blessing and can stack, it just became a required item. Once people collect the entire set, they'll be asking for another new set that gives a new bonus.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
By the way, the new cooking curios are exactly the kind of feature creep we are talking about. Since having the complete set offers a critical hit blessing and can stack, it just became a required item. Once people collect the entire set, they'll be asking for another new set that gives a new bonus.
I thought (hoped) people were joking when they started talking about them at the Pool...but hey, if there is a market for it and people enjoy it, why not. As for this overhaul, I think it would be nice. As mentioned previously, the learning curve is pretty steep not only for top-tier combat, but entry-level as well - you either sink or swim, depending on how easily you can cope with a pretty unforgiving system.
Cooking curios don't affect pvp combat! (The overhaul was meant to address pvp combat if that wasn't clear.) We can talk about cooking curios in another thread if you wish but not really pertinent here.
Anyway, I should have also pointed that most gods don't code so there wouldn't be a big impact on events, area releases, etc.
There's a lot that's gonna have to go for this to work. Kinda wondering what's staying, what's going, here, since this is gonna have a huge impact on PvE as well. Any idea of what utility skills are staying/going? How is this gonna affect stuff like cooking... which is all buffs.
In fact, just gonna ask... which of these are staying/getting changed?
Some things we haven't fully thought through but I'd like to get rid of willpower/endurance for sure. Anything that gives buffs/dmp would be folded into the new system (i.e., have caps).
One more thing, we'd be coding in parallel with our current code so we could still use coding resources for some new things for events or special occasions or artifact sales, etc.--if only to give coders a break!
Cleaning things up to simplify combat sounds great.
Getting rid of about half the afflictions sounds great-ish (says the nervous aff based combatant)
Cleaning up the curing and healing would be a plus. Having a billion different herbs that heal afflictions is kinda unwieldy. If you put in some kind cure order then cutting back on the number of cures should be fine since their main cluster-function is, in effect, to reduce accidental curing of affs you don't know you have.
Scaling back and simplifying attacks is fine too. There are all kinds of creeps that should be put back in check.
Trying to get someone into combat isn't always an easy sell. Teaching them what they should do is hard enough but then when you tell them about the thirty plus ways people will be trying to kill them it's overwhelming.
I'm confident this can be done in a way that keeps the Lusternia flavour while making it more accessible.
I am very much in favor of this, especially if it involves a fundamental rebalancing of all guilds and archetypes. As I perceive it, power creep has become a huge issue, wherein new guilds and archetypes become progressively more powerful, leaving the older skills in the dust.
(clan): Falmiis says, "Aramelise, verb, 1. adorn with many flowers."
Comments
Yes. A thousand times yes to everything in the opening post.
It would! Following through with this decision will not only transform the game experience for existing players, but could potentially draw in and retain more new ones who may have found combat too cumbersome. It is a long-term process, but I feel it will have a more profound, far-reaching impact on Lusternia relative to any planned content that is in store for the game.
"A man's not dead while his name is still spoken." - Terry Pratchett 1948-2015
*cough* halli/gaudi monks *cough*
Yes, depending on whether there might be resources for smaller things it could also be in some way beneficial.
Like if the envoys took a breather from combat changes because they would ultimately be pointless and started looking at maybe some simple non-combat things, maybe on a reduced report cycle, with a disclaimer that "too complicated right now" is an appropriate response.
gogo tradeskill envoys!
I'm also wondering if the plan is to gut and recode the skills, or if the over all ability lists within each skill remain effectively the same with new afflictions?
All good things come with time and patience, and often we must struggle through apparent stagnation to achieve a desired goal.
With some generalized 'core' mechanics making afflictions simpler and design more streamlined, classes/envoys can devote more time to devising interesting unique mechanics outside of afflicting, for a much more fun game.
It sounds like this project would pare it all down some, so people will only have to re-learn everything again once (as opposed to every time). If you go the whole nine and announce a launch date for the new system, that would probably draw a crowd of people looking to restart on more level ground (where everyone will be re-learning at the same time.)
When you refer to all other development - does that include events?
What would you do about the envoy system? Is there any point to spending a lot of time on stuff that's going to be replaced anyway?
What about bug-fixes, skill or non-skill related?
Vive l'apostrophe!
I love the idea. As a follower of Morgfyre and Capitalism, I look forward to the change.
HOWEVER I must say I do have a few reservations. The reason I play this game over fancy graphic based games is quite simple. I LOVE THE CHALLENGE!!! There is very few games that you get this level of complexity in the gaming experience. Not only is it complex with the skills you use but it is complex with the afflictions you need to avoid.
Things do need to change and I think that is right but I do request that this is not ‘dumbed down’. The curve should not be as steep for newbies. It should be easy for people to get into and succeed with. That I agree on, but it should have depth for those who want to push on. Anyway I will stop so you can all tell me I am wrong
06/30/2014 19:37 Silvanus channels the power of the Megalith of Doom for you, stripping you of your Vernal Ascendant status.......bastard!!
Oh, another question, how visible will this be to the players?
While direct input such as designing the afflictions and synergies I feel would be out of the question especially given past experiences, It could be interesting to have say... maybe a week or two for each archetype right at the start to present how they might be changed by this.
And following that, perhaps some time discussing orgs simply because it would be nice to see perhaps more interplay between the guilds in an org. I suppose the best example would be that I'd find it personally really interesting if there was a synergy or little bonus for the Moondancers and Hartstone combining their powers in a group setting.
Overall, because this is a project that we're all generally going to know about, an open flow of communication could potentially allay the feeling that nothing is happening because we'll be discussing it all year and this could bridge the gap between the start of the project and when the first test characters are accessible.
How many affliction categories are we looking at? Like, one for every current Healing category? More? Less?
I thought it was more like...
You have flame afflictions as a category with like... singed, burned, on fire, charred, extra crispy.
And generally you might be able to access "singed" or "burned", but only certain guilds might get "on fire" or "charred" where the pyros might be the only ones able to give "extra crispy".
Envoy system would be either pared down or asking for feedback on the test shells. Of course, big bugs would be addressed.
We would test through character shells that can be used in arena duels. Obviously, if it takes as long as we suspect and if character shells would be released throughout the process, it would be pretty visible!
I don't know anything about Lithmeria's affliction system so can't say if it's similar or not!
If possible, one or two people still doing eventish stuff would be nice, even (especially) if its lots of tiny, private RP interactions/possessions.
Edit: Oh, I see. Hrm.
Anyway, I should have also pointed that most gods don't code so there wouldn't be a big impact on events, area releases, etc.
One more thing, we'd be coding in parallel with our current code so we could still use coding resources for some new things for events or special occasions or artifact sales, etc.--if only to give coders a break!
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!