I totally see where @Daganev and @Qistrel (and even @Arcanis, yikes) are coming from. Racial RP is a central part of why some players enjoy the game, so naturally there's going to be some dissatisfaction when it feels like racial identities are changed. The lobo perks for instance maintain the pre-overhaul mechanical resistances and regen of the race, but they're also completely flavorless. The one perk that does have some RP thrust behind it isn't consistent with pre-overhaul lobos' capabilities, but despite the dodgy grammar of the flavor text, I like the RP implications. So yeah, it feels a little like the identity of the race shifted a bit. A novice looking at HELP LOBOSHIGARU is obviously going to draw RP inspiration from the description of the race and the perks, but those resistances were pretty boring features pre-overhaul as well. Would it be neat if all races' perks reflected in-game lore somehow? Totally. Was it something of a missed opportunity to slot in simple damage type resistances because "we need a perk at this level" ? Yeah, but that can maybe be mitigated by something as simple as flavor text.
But at the same time, RP is going to be shaped by character experiences, player-made backstory, lore you discover in-game, and so on. My lobo RP isn't typical, I'm sure, and it certainly doesn't hinge on my fire and cold resistances. If the racial overhaul means we could see one or two more Hallifaxian lobos in my time, I'm a fan. But I'm not holding my breath.
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
2
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited June 2015
There was literally not a single jab in that entire comment. Implying they did this rushed and at random is a little insulting to the effort actually put in to it. Sounds pretty ungrateful, IMO, to imply that the effort is invalidated because you as an individual are not satisfied.
I just gave you concrete examples of how feedback was taken and applied ( I guess hard evidence is "grasping at straws"), you responded with vague "I has feelings," and based on your recent misquotes of myself, something tells me that's not a direct quote from Baelor. We're still changing things as we speak as the envoys work through everything with the admin.
Live testing is part of the process. It's actually been a pretty smooth rollout with no catastrophic issues so far. Tae'dae had the most prominent issue and were promptly addressed by Baelor and Roark until a solution can be agreed on.
@Qistrel: The fact finks made a name for themselves by killing Allisaurs says that we are not the same kind. Orclach isn't an orc, so you are closer to a finklach. Unless you really die to allisaurs and can't kill 6 of them at a time. Also there is some confusion on this, but when I spoke to Iosai she stated that dexterity effects PvP, while rank in kata effects PvE... this is on top of strength for the main damage.
I'm still concerned at lucidian being so extreme an effect for combat. More damage or something would be fine, but once you make feats faster.... ouch.
@Celina: Went to read the male keph thing once you said that, it is updated and sexy. Although, female keph is now resistant to most everything. How do you damage kill them in general now? Any side effect if their ego hits 0? Burnout on the effect? Stun? Something to make it dying bad?
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
No side effect to my understanding, though I haven't ever hit 0. You...have to bring a bard with egovice.
There was literally not a single jab in that entire comment. Implying they did this rushed and at random is a little insulting to the effort actually put in to it. Sounds pretty ungrateful, IMO, to imply that the effort is invalidated because you as an individual are not satisfied.
I just gave you concrete examples of how feedback was taken and applied ( I guess hard evidence is "grasping at straws"), you responded with vague "I has feelings," and based on your recent misquotes of myself, something tells me that's not a direct quote from Baelor. We're still changing things as we speak as the envoys work through everything with the admin.
Live testing is part of the process. It's actually been a pretty smooth rollout with no catastrophic issues so far. Tae'dae had the most prominent issue and were promptly addressed by Baelor and Roark until a solution can be agreed on.
I really dont see how the 'feeling' of stating "it felt rushed" is somehow a grave insult. The reasons, which I thought were obvious, being:
- So many races simply received a "bonus to influencing <type>" even when some didnt really make sense (The fink debacle which has been going on for example)
- Near each one received a small boost of a resistance, which basically took up 2 perks. Both these and the influencing felt like "Fill <perk> here with <X> also".
- All the races have amazing flavor, yet a lot of it seems to be wasted on quick input, which again makes it feel rushed. Much more amazing ideas could have been thought up.
- Again, even when the races were introduced finally, several still had abilities not even finished coding.
- You mentioned "Only just now Viynain and Baelor were saying how they were testing Igasho". Yes...but AFTER release, which frankly could have been tested during.
- Tae'dae Bearhug alone was a surprise it got through, and even more surprising how envoys didnt see the obvious abuseable capability. So is it the fault of the envoys, or the rush of the races popping out?
- I already said that even with input from players, we were told several times that the races are already being coded in and any further changes will have to come later. I can search for that post somewhere but I'd rather not.
I think this is more than enough to warrant my 'feels' of a rushed process.
I think with every aspect of the overhaul, there comes a point when theorycrafting needs to end, because it could go on infinitely. Eventually, something needs to be decided on by the admin, put into place, and then tweaked thereafter. Otherwise we'd probably still be discussing the afflictions.
I think people are forgetting how fortunate we are to actually have been consulted about any aspect of the overhaul. And not just consulted, but listened to. The admin sure didn't have to do any of that, and yet they have taken into account our thoughts and opinions and feelings. Suddenly, it seems some people think that now translates into an expectation that we have a right as players to dictate the decisions made by the admin. This isn't actually a democracy. Estarra is in charge, and those She appoints to have authority. I'm sure She must often wonder why she bothers discussing with players at all when it seems players complain no matter what.
Have a little perspective, and a little respect. And, on top of that, a little less selfishness and a little more empathy for the real life VOLUNTEERS who are working for OUR BENEFIT behind the scenes with ZERO RETURN, while you're bitching that you didn't get your own way or your personal vision realised. Talk about rude.
4
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I'm curious, Arcanis. How many logs regarding the overhaul have you submitted to Baelor? What about suggestions to your envoy for reports on skills that have been altered? If I go and look at the spreadsheet, will I find your suggestions? Tell me, what experience do you have that we all don't recognize that would make you a good envoy?
Eh, I don't necessarily think all the lore should be handed out in the help files. The perks should follow logically from the "vision" of each race as outlined in its little blurb, and honestly, I think the names someone (was it @Qistrel) came up with for each of the perks would help cohere everything. The damage resistances and influence bonuses are mostly uninteresting, and for lobos in particular it feels like two wasted slots that could be more flavorful. Again I should note those resistances were just as boring before the overhaul, but they also weren't really touted as two of the five cool and unique features of being a loboshigaru.
These are the very minor misgivings of a noncom, non-changeling player whose playstyle is not really affected at all by the stat overhaul!
I usually stay far away from the forums, but I have a little tae'dae who wants to know why he isn't doing damage anymore, and if they are going to fix it. It sounds like the issues first brought up about the damage levels included viscanti and lobo, and I see in the thread people mention that those are fixed? I just need answers for the kid.
Also, since I'm here, it is very smart of admin to work with the players in this overhaul if you consider the fact that MUDs are a rarely used form of entertainment, and when you operate on such a small niche market the last thing you do is piss off the customers you do have. It could kill the game. I personally don't like the fact that I don't know my own stats now. But, you know, carry on.
I usually stay far away from the forums, but I have a little tae'dae who wants to know why he isn't doing damage anymore, and if they are going to fix it. It sounds like the issues first brought up about the damage levels included viscanti and lobo, and I see in the thread people mention that those are fixed? I just need answers for the kid.
Also, since I'm here, it is very smart of admin to work with the players in this overhaul if you consider the fact that MUDs are a rarely used form of entertainment, and when you operate on such a small niche market the last thing you do is piss off the customers you do have. It could kill the game. I personally don't like the fact that I don't know my own stats now. But, you know, carry on.
<333
@Niina If they are asking about bearhug... they won't do any damage with bearhug until level 100.
As for stats, it might be easiest to think of stats as being moved and changed. Stats are now basically a question of BODYSCAN output.
- I already said that even with input from players, we were told several times that the races are already being coded in and any further changes will have to come later. I can search for that post somewhere but I'd rather not.
No, you don't have to thank me - it barely took me five minutes to find this evidence of yours that proves you're contributing about as much to this conversation as you've ever contributed to anything throughout your entire life: nothing of worth.
1) In the post, he specifically said that feedback was still being considered. In fact, if we take his words literally, even full changes were possible, just very unlikely. He most certainly didn't say no to any suggestions, or to ask for people to stop giving them so that the system could be rushed out.
2) This is a post on the May 24. This thread was started May 3. Prior to this "We're well into coding, suggestions will be limited by the kind of coding effort needed to incorporate the ideas" post that you're so adamant about but cannot be bothered to find, there were 3 full weeks of open, public feedback. (More if we include envoy talk time beforehand, but let's not)
The only ones who cared enough to be involved from the start were Daganev and Qistrel, and perhaps we should have pushed them to give those ideas they had rather than have those arguments about warrior-poets that were had with Daganev. A pity.
What about you, Arcanis? You had 3 weeks to give these great suggestions that would have kept every single aspect of a fink or aslaran or tae'dae or gnome roleplay, and you didn't. Instead, you sit on your chair today and type out "It was rushed. It's the admin's fault the races suck now. They didn't think through it enough."
Actually, I take that back. I sincerely, really, cannot remember if you had given any suggestions during those three weeks, and this time, I really can't be bothered to look it up. Baelor's post? Anytime. Yours? Let's go play with stones. Well, whatever, even if you had given any suggestions, who cares?
We get it, you don't like the perks. Guess what, if no one else is, I'm happy you don't like the perks. Now, if that's all the constructive input you have to give, just go away.
Urdnot says he's crippled bashing. I explained what's going on with the overhaul, but he's adamant that "this can't be right".
The purpose of overhauling combat is to help expand the playerbase by making it less complex, correct? This is a 14 year old kid who loves Lusternia, he doesn't have access to the forums because he's dealing with cybernanny Admin should talk with him if this is the end result for his character post changes. The new kids are tomorrow's base players.
I've sort of been waiting patiently to learn about the changes, and I was pretty surprised to see stats disappear. I thought that was, like, a standard thing in the RPG world.. something very simple was just made very complicated. I have all the faith in you, but please don't ruin my game.
The stats thing is actually not that complicated. It is quite simple actually: There are no stats. A tiny faeling warrior hitting you with an axe will do the same damage as a burly tae'dae, will deal the same amount of wounds, have the same amount of health, and recover balance at the same speed.
All skills that used to increase stats have changed, and now explain what they do in their ab files.
Urdnot says he's crippled bashing. I explained what's going on with the overhaul, but he's adamant that "this can't be right".
The purpose of overhauling combat is to help expand the playerbase by making it less complex, correct? This is a 14 year old kid who loves Lusternia, he doesn't have access to the forums because he's dealing with cybernanny Admin should talk with him if this is the end result for his character post changes. The new kids are tomorrow's base players.
I wasn't able to test warrior attacks for obvious reasons, but my own testing of pre and post overhaul bashing did not see much fluctuations in bashing speed. It's likely that the differences he's experiencing is due to the changes in resistance than changes in racial stats. Although denizen damage and health was adjusted, it is also possible that some areas might be doing too much damage, or have too much health. If something is obviously off, like he is struggling and dying in an area he easily bashed in previously, giving Baelor the details of that area could help him find out if something is configured wrongly somewhere.
If he's dying too quickly in generally every area, walking him through his bodyscan (and finding out if he can boost it any more) might help find what's causing the problem. Generally speaking, as a Tae'dae, he probably will see a slight drop in absolute health number and a slight drop in resistances, in return for faster attacks.
It's also possible that, as a tae'dae, he was actually hitting harder (higher base Str, maybe lacking weapon proficiency) but slower and is counting attacks rather than seconds and/or one of his favourite bashing grounds falls on the borderline where it now takes one more attack.
@Niina Multiple things have changed with this overhaul that may contribute to the issues Urdnot is having.
Firstly we removed stats, this would have hurt him somewhat as he was likely relying on the old Tae'dae high base strength for hunting. However, the malus to balance recovery has been removed, and he should find he attacks more often, that said at 85, his critical hit chance rate is still on the low side, faster swings for more critical strikes will not show itself as much as it will when he reaches 90th circle and above. I can sympathise somewhat, the mid 80s are usually one of the slowest periods of hunting, and if someone isn't capable of influencing their way through that part, it can be a long drag.
Secondly we converted the old damage buff/DMP system to a new ten level formula, this was a rather large adjustment to certain abilities, including Drawdown. However weapons and armour still have yet to be converted, so he's missing a large amount of cutting or blunt damage bonus that will make a difference, I can only apologise here, we're still trying to finalise the Knighthood overhaul.
Thirdly, it's entirely possible, depending on where he was hunting, that he was punching above his weight somewhat, having high strength and a lot of racial/skill related resistance in the old system would have had him places most people avoid until much later. It may be that he needs to relocate to a different hunting area, or there are skills and abilities he could utilise to return to where he was previously.
The only ones who cared enough to be involved from the start were Daganev and Qistrel, and perhaps we should have pushed them to give those ideas they had rather than have those arguments about warrior-poets that were had with Daganev. A pity.
I put some basic ideas in the spreadsheet. I was told they were looked at but given no other comment, and then heard that it was impossible to do what I was suggesting to be done. (add a perk at level 75 to give more variety and make the story that the new perks told match the story that the pervious perks told.)
I could have easily also done that without adding the level 75 perk, but there wasn't any interest in going in that direction. It was as if any suggestion to change the way perks evoked RP was responded to by other players saying that losing stats was perfect, and how dare anyone question the new perks. Though I still don't understand that non sequitur.
Urdnot says he's crippled bashing. I explained what's going on with the overhaul, but he's adamant that "this can't be right".
The purpose of overhauling combat is to help expand the playerbase by making it less complex, correct? This is a 14 year old kid who loves Lusternia, he doesn't have access to the forums because he's dealing with cybernanny Admin should talk with him if this is the end result for his character post changes. The new kids are tomorrow's base players.
Tell him that he needs a faster weapon since he is not hitting as hard as he used to. Tae'dae no longer hit harder than other races, and are also no longer slower than other races. The warrior overhaul isn't complete yet, so the weapons are a bit confusing and midchange.
I don't care about 6% resistances and 3% damage boosts. It's mostly the demi+ powers I'm upset about. Specifically the ones that affect hunting for certain races. But, eh, seems there's nothing I can do to get it changed. So onwards.
Haghan said Urdnot was using a precision weapon instead of a speed one, and fixed that. Is he still struggling to hunt?
@Baelor Should all elfen be getting their 1/10 health and mana forest regen in wyrden woods? Cause I don't seem to be.
I don't think mage/druid terrains activate the regeneration/resistances that are dependant on environment type, though I might be wrong. The natural/forest requirements need to come from the base room-type, and not from a mage/druid terrain, is my own understanding and results from my testing, but I didn't test faeling/elfen all that much.
So, as elfen/faeling if I have Glom guild skills, I will regenerate 1/10 health and mana in wyrden woods, but if I'm Serenwilde or one of the cities, I won't?
But for One With Nature, I regen 3/10 h/m/e in base wyrden woods and Blacktalon-made wyrden woods, unless I buy the Pendant?
Niina has raised a valid point. Not everyone reads the forums or CAN read them for that matter. Urdnot is a keen player and hunting is a major calling card. We have helped him as much as we can with donations as he cant afford it and isn't allowed to buy credits. This game is literally his outlet as he doesn't even own a cellphone or have a Facebook account.
With that in mind, when the changes occurred, he couldn't understand why it took him much longer to kill a denizen. He likes to hunt UV, and recently tried illithoids. Before the change, he could solo two illithoids, now it takes him three times longer to kill a single one. He has now changed his weapon stats and they are now, Damage: 244 Precision: 209 Speed: 285.
Players like Urdnot need to have that extra help, and so far other players have stepped up. The issue is that the admin really need to communicate to these types players in order prevent frustration. Change is always great and I am sure most players are grateful for the hard work that the admin have put into the game. The admin so far have invested a lot with these new changes but it seems counter-productive to not go a little bit further to help players integrate with the new changes.
Urdnot is literally on the brink of not playing any more. He has seen what he could do (took him a fair amount of time based on his limitations), and now sees what he cannot do based on the recent changes.
So, as elfen/faeling if I have Glom guild skills, I will regenerate 1/10 health and mana in wyrden woods, but if I'm Serenwilde or one of the cities, I won't?
But for One With Nature, I regen 3/10 h/m/e in base wyrden woods and Blacktalon-made wyrden woods, unless I buy the Pendant?
No, OWN works the exact same way.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
While I understand Urnot's difficulties (it's harder for everyone, including myself), I guess I'm not really understanding what it is people are asking the administration to do about it.
@Barrin: I can sympathise with the position of people who have no access to the forums, I've stated all along I'm available through both PM's here and in game messages regarding any details on the overhaul, and Urdnot is more than welcome to message me in game to see if we can't resolve these difficulties.
What I don't see are ISSUE and BUG reports regarding the overhaul, those get sent to a different team of admin, and unless it's a code issue that goes straight to Roark, the admin handling them tends to ask me anyway.
As I've said, Knights are in a slightly tricky position currently, their weapons haven't been converted to the new system because we're still yet to finalise the Knighthood overhaul, though you've mentioned he's recently changed to a speed weapon, and this may help matters some. His burst damage will have gone down, but his sustained DPS should be higher.
If it's a mitigation issue, it's possible that he may need to look at curing and use of defensive abilities. For example, a lot of players who created their character using traditionally tanky races such as tae'dae, orclach, igasho etc only ever used to sip, and didn't realise that scrolls and sparkleberries are also an option. This might not be the case here, but it's certainly something to consider.
Again, he's free to message me in game, as is anyone else who may be struggling adapting to these changes that cannot access the forums.
Comments
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
I really dont see how the 'feeling' of stating "it felt rushed" is somehow a grave insult. The reasons, which I thought were obvious, being:
- So many races simply received a "bonus to influencing <type>" even when some didnt really make sense (The fink debacle which has been going on for example)
- Near each one received a small boost of a resistance, which basically took up 2 perks. Both these and the influencing felt like "Fill <perk> here with <X> also".
- All the races have amazing flavor, yet a lot of it seems to be wasted on quick input, which again makes it feel rushed. Much more amazing ideas could have been thought up.
- Again, even when the races were introduced finally, several still had abilities not even finished coding.
- You mentioned "Only just now Viynain and Baelor were saying how they were testing Igasho". Yes...but AFTER release, which frankly could have been tested during.
- Tae'dae Bearhug alone was a surprise it got through, and even more surprising how envoys didnt see the obvious abuseable capability. So is it the fault of the envoys, or the rush of the races popping out?
- I already said that even with input from players, we were told several times that the races are already being coded in and any further changes will have to come later. I can search for that post somewhere but I'd rather not.
I think this is more than enough to warrant my 'feels' of a rushed process.
I think people are forgetting how fortunate we are to actually have been consulted about any aspect of the overhaul. And not just consulted, but listened to. The admin sure didn't have to do any of that, and yet they have taken into account our thoughts and opinions and feelings. Suddenly, it seems some people think that now translates into an expectation that we have a right as players to dictate the decisions made by the admin. This isn't actually a democracy. Estarra is in charge, and those She appoints to have authority. I'm sure She must often wonder why she bothers discussing with players at all when it seems players complain no matter what.
Have a little perspective, and a little respect. And, on top of that, a little less selfishness and a little more empathy for the real life VOLUNTEERS who are working for OUR BENEFIT behind the scenes with ZERO RETURN, while you're bitching that you didn't get your own way or your personal vision realised. Talk about rude.
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
As for stats, it might be easiest to think of stats as being moved and changed. Stats are now basically a question of BODYSCAN output.
All skills that used to increase stats have changed, and now explain what they do in their ab files.
Firstly we removed stats, this would have hurt him somewhat as he was likely relying on the old Tae'dae high base strength for hunting. However, the malus to balance recovery has been removed, and he should find he attacks more often, that said at 85, his critical hit chance rate is still on the low side, faster swings for more critical strikes will not show itself as much as it will when he reaches 90th circle and above. I can sympathise somewhat, the mid 80s are usually one of the slowest periods of hunting, and if someone isn't capable of influencing their way through that part, it can be a long drag.
Secondly we converted the old damage buff/DMP system to a new ten level formula, this was a rather large adjustment to certain abilities, including Drawdown. However weapons and armour still have yet to be converted, so he's missing a large amount of cutting or blunt damage bonus that will make a difference, I can only apologise here, we're still trying to finalise the Knighthood overhaul.
Thirdly, it's entirely possible, depending on where he was hunting, that he was punching above his weight somewhat, having high strength and a lot of racial/skill related resistance in the old system would have had him places most people avoid until much later. It may be that he needs to relocate to a different hunting area, or there are skills and abilities he could utilise to return to where he was previously.
I could have easily also done that without adding the level 75 perk, but there wasn't any interest in going in that direction. It was as if any suggestion to change the way perks evoked RP was responded to by other players saying that losing stats was perfect, and how dare anyone question the new perks. Though I still don't understand that non sequitur.
Haghan said Urdnot was using a precision weapon instead of a speed one, and fixed that. Is he still struggling to hunt?
@Baelor Should all elfen be getting their 1/10 health and mana forest regen in wyrden woods? Cause I don't seem to be.
Qistrel may have just strolled into Glomdoring to test it...
EDIT: I do get elfen forest regen in Hartstone-made terrain.
But for One With Nature, I regen 3/10 h/m/e in base wyrden woods and Blacktalon-made wyrden woods, unless I buy the Pendant?
With that in mind, when the changes occurred, he couldn't understand why it took him much longer to kill a denizen. He likes to hunt UV, and recently tried illithoids. Before the change, he could solo two illithoids, now it takes him three times longer to kill a single one. He has now changed his weapon stats and they are now, Damage: 244 Precision: 209 Speed: 285.
Players like Urdnot need to have that extra help, and so far other players have stepped up. The issue is that the admin really need to communicate to these types players in order prevent frustration. Change is always great and I am sure most players are grateful for the hard work that the admin have put into the game. The admin so far have invested a lot with these new changes but it seems counter-productive to not go a little bit further to help players integrate with the new changes.
Urdnot is literally on the brink of not playing any more. He has seen what he could do (took him a fair amount of time based on his limitations), and now sees what he cannot do based on the recent changes.
What I don't see are ISSUE and BUG reports regarding the overhaul, those get sent to a different team of admin, and unless it's a code issue that goes straight to Roark, the admin handling them tends to ask me anyway.
As I've said, Knights are in a slightly tricky position currently, their weapons haven't been converted to the new system because we're still yet to finalise the Knighthood overhaul, though you've mentioned he's recently changed to a speed weapon, and this may help matters some. His burst damage will have gone down, but his sustained DPS should be higher.
Again, he's free to message me in game, as is anyone else who may be struggling adapting to these changes that cannot access the forums.
I'll bug it, but not sure what to put? Just 'OWN is working for non-Glomdoring players in wyrden woods'?