I find that when people talk about "viable" kill methods, they mean methods that have a strategy that you can implement on a regular basis, and that other combatants can't be expected to defend against forever.
However, in reality, not everybody knows what they are doing, and I've seen quite a few times where "non viable" kill methods were used to kill someone. Sometimes as a form of humiliation.
Then there is the fact that the threat of a kill method can be enough to help the more viable kill method be more viable. (e.g. you can use focus spirit to cure out, but the threat of the mana kill prevents you from doing so.)
I find that when people talk about "viable" kill methods, they mean methods that have a strategy that you can implement on a regular basis, and that other combatants can't be expected to defend against forever.
However, in reality, not everybody knows what they are doing, and I've seen quite a few times where "non viable" kill methods were used to kill someone. Sometimes as a form of humiliation.
Then there is the fact that the threat of a kill method can be enough to help the more viable kill method be more viable. (e.g. you can use focus spirit to cure out, but the threat of the mana kill prevents you from doing so.)
I've done dysbaric pressure kills now and again, but it's a very hit-and-miss tactic and won't work in even 10% of the cases. Usually go for it if everything else seems to be failing and there's a stalemate in the fight. (For instance, can't really stack vessels all that well if enemies start throwing up the psi shields to cure out) That said, it doesn't necessarily mean that we need to not have a kill method that is Aeromancer-specific and available to melders.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
From what I have read, cloud coils needs some serious envoying, because they don't really synergize with anything else. It seems more like an RP kill method (sit here while the sky kills you) than a combat one.
We've gotten a little off track. Discussions regarding the frequency of skills used or the number kill methods X guild has vs Y guild is not within the purview of the overhaul. The Overhaul isn't reviewing skills, only afflictions that sometimes require subsequent review of specific skills only.
Sorry to bring it back to cloudcoils/DysbaricPressure, @Saesh, but just some things that were not mentioned and should be.
DysbaricPressure is like Druidry Thornrend or Aquamancy Preserve in that it is not all that viable solo, but can be effective when there is more than one caster present. Hallifax does not have many Aeromancy combatants, so naturally it is rarely seen. Overhaul should consider whether these type of skills are desired or have a role?
As a solo-kill, it typically required illusions to consume herb balance, and/or the target having something like trueblind on keepup. Shedrin was able to land quite a few kills with it until systems added improved illusion detection. Balancing around illusions working is hopefully not going to be part of the overhaul.
Finally, that cloudcoils are a higher priority affliction than other herb-cured afflictions given by the aeromeld (namely pierced limbs) also means those hindering afflictions are stuck for longer. As someone who had umpteen spars with Shedrin, I can say those arm-hindering afflictions and inability to stand in the meld were hugely frustrating. Pierced limbs may themselves be on the chopping block, but the point is that the interplay of meld afflictions should not be overlooked, just because the insta based on the affliction is not viable.
Summary: am fine with cloudcoils/dysbaricpressure being part of the overhaul, just did not like the simplistic arguments for deleting them.
It's relatively impossible to balance around illusions. So no, we aren't
If cloudcloils are serving a secondary role such as the herb stacking to prohibit standing, I would prefer to see an existing affliction moved to fill that role rather than keeping a "special" affliction around for the same reason. I will note that that could come down to a flaw in the curing system, and a good system should distinguish between 1 cloudcoil and 4 cloudcoils and change prioritized accordingly. Which, again, adds a level of complication we're looking to reduce.
Again, the ultimate goal is to reduce the number of afflictions, and if there is an affliction that has a theorized purpose that isn't really seeing the light of day and, at this point, hasn't really been approached to change how it works. I don't see much point keeping it around waiting for a report that hasn't happened.
That being said, I did caveat the removal of cloudcoils with the offer of someone demonstrating it has a purpose that I'm missing. Such as Hallifax group kills. If the prevailing opinion is that this is a legitimate thing for Aeromancers, I don't mind keeping it.
It's relatively impossible to balance around illusions. So no, we aren't
If cloudcloils are serving a secondary role such as the herb stacking to prohibit standing, I would prefer to see an existing affliction moved to fill that role rather than keeping a "special" affliction around for the same reason. I will note that that could come down to a flaw in the curing system, and a good system should distinguish between 1 cloudcoil and 4 cloudcoils and change prioritized accordingly. Which, again, adds a level of complication we're looking to reduce.
Again, the ultimate goal is to reduce the number of afflictions, and if there is an affliction that has a theorized purpose that isn't really seeing the light of day and, at this point, hasn't really been approached to change how it works. I don't see much point keeping it around waiting for a report that hasn't happened.
That being said, I did caveat the removal of cloudcoils with the offer of someone demonstrating it has a purpose that I'm missing. Such as Hallifax group kills. If the prevailing opinion is that this is a legitimate thing for Aeromancers, I don't mind keeping it.
Cloudcoils, in much the same way as incinerate for pyromancers work on clouded terrain. There is no requirement that the location be melded. Yes, we don't have combat aeromancers besides me at this point... so no, you won't be seeing a group of aeromancers rushing an enemy and spamming dysbaric pressure with the intent to murder. Mostly due to lack of numbers.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
In my mind, ideally the cloudcoils can be replaced with a currently existing overhauled affliction, and DysbaricPreasure can require a combination of afflictons to be present.
I'm also hoping that is what happens with warrior afflictions.
In my mind, ideally the cloudcoils can be replaced with a currently existing overhauled affliction, and DysbaricPreasure can require a combination of afflictons to be present.
I'm also hoping that is what happens with warrior afflictions.
Doesn't sound ideal at all. Generally, mages aren't an affliction heavy class. Overloading someone with afflictions is going to be a big hit-and-miss, involving illusions (Yuck, can we get rid of those already?) and numerous power heavy abilities that essentially work in the fashion of... "Throw everything against the wall, see what sticks" - Very much not the tactic I would want to see.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Druids don't get two kill methods, unless we're suddenly counting the random tert ones (ike dproph, which is almost pure luck and spam based) that require sap just the same.
The only classes that tend to really get two entirely different kill methods are guardians.
[clip:] Going Away: The four purgatives, Antidote, Liniment, Mending, Restoration, Quicksilver, Love
@Saesh Dexterity kabobs require quicksilver. Not sure if anyone drew that link.
I'm a bit confused with quicksilver going away. Aeon is already a big enough pain, will there not be a speed defense? How will aeon work under the new system.
Being that I've been an envoy for all of three months... I'd say that's plenty of excuse. Heck, when I switched to aeros, the envoys were pretty much about to be frozen. I've seen two months of reports' worth there (And one of those is still sitting in submitted status), and if memory serves contributed to the creation of those reports. Just because someone else hadn't seen a problem with the mechanic doesn't mean there wasn't a problem with it. That said, I'm quite well aware what would have happened to a report that went along the lines of: "Change dysbaricpressure into a timed insta-kill similar to geomancer chasm." Chances are, it would have been ground into the dirt by practically every other envoy. I'm not a fan of cloning skills myself, but at some point you just have to do that... there's only so many mechanics that can work without introducing new guild-only afflictions.
You've been an envoy for a short period of time, but you and others have been in the guild and org longer. I believe what Saesh and others are trying to explain is as an org or guild it could have been brought up before your term not that they were saying you've had the time as an envoy to do so.
If we keep the speed defence, which I don't plan on removing, it will most likely be rolled into a skill in one of the existing skillsets rather than keeping it in vials. Or perhaps we'll turn the truetime enchantment into the defense.
Fire and frost will most likely be going away, and compensated for in the new buff system.
Allheale is undecided. Unsure of how we are going to work in antidote, it will still be around in some form.
If we keep the speed defence, which I don't plan on removing, it will most likely be rolled into a skill in one of the existing skillsets rather than keeping it in vials. Or perhaps we'll turn the truetime enchantment into the defense.
Fire and frost will most likely be going away, and compensated for in the new buff system.
Allheale is undecided. Unsure of how we are going to work in antidote, it will still be around in some form.
Thanks. I like allheale (which is also used in cooking for con platters, though no reason it can't be replaced with some other potion, vitae if that is going away) and tend to give it to novices until they figure out what they need and what cures what.
If we keep the speed defence, which I don't plan on removing, it will most likely be rolled into a skill in one of the existing skillsets rather than keeping it in vials. Or perhaps we'll turn the truetime enchantment into the defense.
Fire and frost will most likely be going away, and compensated for in the new buff system.
Allheale is undecided. Unsure of how we are going to work in antidote, it will still be around in some form.
I'm guessing galvanism is going the way of fire and frost?
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
With healthleech soon going to be converted, I was wondering if any buffs are on the table for this affliction. Right now, this is definitely one of the throwaway affs in the current system, and my understanding is that the overhaul was meant to get rid of those.
Yes, but we also wanted a reasonable pool of afflictions (no less than 10) for each bucket and healthleech, in my opinion, can be envoyed to expand its existing function.
edit: So nothing planned, but that option is available if someone wishes to take it up.
Okay! I'm just bringing it up for us to maybe start brainstorming some adjustments to it.
@Altrea suggested making healthleech an affliction that reduces the effectiveness of healing methods (sparkle, potions, scrolls) used by the afflictee and gives the reduced amount to the afflictor.
With us moving into the next set of afflictions, is there a list similar to what has been posted before on what afflictions you were planning on having be cured by purity dust (and if you have thought far enough, restorative ice)?
As a random aside for those interested: I will be updating the monk spreadsheets once we see the physical affs changes. That will make it easier to see what is changing for monks.
Im a bit worried about Aeon being placed into the same stack of cures with those of soothing steam. I can see this becoming problematic if an individual has other afflictions cured by soothing steam and would be attempting to cure aeon only to have those others cured. Would be like a small-time aeon-lock and extending its duration.
Edit: Previously, Aeon was cured by sipping phlegmatic, which only has 3 other things cured by it, which are rarely seen anyone. It can also be cured by reishi, in such circumstances as well as Focus Spirit. I think Aeon needs something else if we dont want to accidently put it in OP category with these new changes.
Aeon is slated to always be cured first by steam (a grace that's not going to be the same for everything else). This has been said several times, though perhaps only on Envoys. So dw about it.
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However, in reality, not everybody knows what they are doing, and I've seen quite a few times where "non viable" kill methods were used to kill someone. Sometimes as a form of humiliation.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
DysbaricPressure is like Druidry Thornrend or Aquamancy Preserve in that it is not all that viable solo, but can be effective when there is more than one caster present. Hallifax does not have many Aeromancy combatants, so naturally it is rarely seen. Overhaul should consider whether these type of skills are desired or have a role?
As a solo-kill, it typically required illusions to consume herb balance, and/or the target having something like trueblind on keepup. Shedrin was able to land quite a few kills with it until systems added improved illusion detection. Balancing around illusions working is hopefully not going to be part of the overhaul.
Finally, that cloudcoils are a higher priority affliction than other herb-cured afflictions given by the aeromeld (namely pierced limbs) also means those hindering afflictions are stuck for longer. As someone who had umpteen spars with Shedrin, I can say those arm-hindering afflictions and inability to stand in the meld were hugely frustrating. Pierced limbs may themselves be on the chopping block, but the point is that the interplay of meld afflictions should not be overlooked, just because the insta based on the affliction is not viable.
Summary: am fine with cloudcoils/dysbaricpressure being part of the overhaul, just did not like the simplistic arguments for deleting them.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Staying: Health, Mana, Bromides, Galvanism, Fire*, Ice*, Allheale, Salt, Sulfur, the perfumes
Going Away: The four purgatives, Antidote, Liniment, Mending, Restoration, Quicksilver, Love
New: Lucidity Slush, Restorative Ice
*I'm guessing these will no longer cure but still give damage resistance?
I'm a bit confused with quicksilver going away. Aeon is already a big enough pain, will there not be a speed defense? How will aeon work under the new system.
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Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Edit: Previously, Aeon was cured by sipping phlegmatic, which only has 3 other things cured by it, which are rarely seen anyone. It can also be cured by reishi, in such circumstances as well as Focus Spirit. I think Aeon needs something else if we dont want to accidently put it in OP category with these new changes.