The original expressed desire was to eventually remove the cleanse cure, and either removing or migrating all of those afflictions to one of the four balances. This was some time back, though.
I do hope they go ahead with removing cleanse entirely - it's simply weird to have exceptions, or to single out one of the cleanse cures to remove and leaving the rest in. The meta-balance gets disrupted either way, but leaving the cure in also means the disruption results in the same old complications of having a cleanse cure. Nothing is gained.
With the warrior stuff coming out Monday, Aside from the ones in your post, are all other affs being deleted - Things like kneecaps, shatteredankles, pinchednerves, etc or are all these affs also staying?
Edit: Unless all these are monk affs... /noncombatperson
Anything that's warrior-only will be gone, anything shared with monks will be around for a little while yet but will get phased out. I don't have an exact list at hand of what's going away.
Perhaps this warrants its own thread (and perhaps @Ieptix will create one later when appropriate [or a thread's been created already!]), but what can we expect with the Monk update? I haven't seen anything indicating changes.
I don't have any details yet, but it'll mainly be getting their afflictions/kill conditions updated for the new affliction pools and moving them to the new wound system.
Considering how warriors can only do two wounds a hit max and monks get three hits...
please let this 'moving them to the new wound system' not just make monks better warriors in almost every way, kind of like how old warriors/old monks relationship is. @ixion can vouch.
I must admit I've not been following this thread in full (there was a lot of text I had not much to contribute, knowing very little about warriors) but there's something I'd wanted to ask now that it's imminent, maybe @Ieptix or one of the players with more insight could give me a short answer to this: What's going to happen to the healing skillset, giving we are getting rid of quite some afflictions if I understand it correctly.
Considering how warriors can only do two wounds a hit max and monks get three hits...
please let this 'moving them to the new wound system' not just make monks better warriors in almost every way, kind of like how old warriors/old monks relationship is. @ixion can vouch.
Disclaimer: I am not Ieptix and do not have the final say.
The current discussion was aimed at only basic attacks (non afflicters) causing wounding, or only kick causing wounds. Monks would become equal wound dealers on the assumption people wanted to see more affs hidden behind wounds, especially when some affs are far more powerful. Monks WERE based on burst afflicting (like guardians) and lacked attrition design (like warriors). They gained higher damage but did crap wounding so it was not something that stacked much. I assume the goal is to bring them more like warriors, but with more "free" affs and the wounds for specific things. This is yet to be seen and can poke me in game if you have ideas. I am talking with peoples to try to get consensus.
@Aeldra: We could leave it to an extent. Healing needs changing though to avoid problem child combat.
Considering how warriors can only do two wounds a hit max and monks get three hits...
please let this 'moving them to the new wound system' not just make monks better warriors in almost every way, kind of like how old warriors/old monks relationship is. @ixion can vouch.
Disclaimer: I am not Ieptix and do not have the final say.
The current discussion was aimed at only basic attacks (non afflicters) causing wounding, or only kick causing wounds. Monks would become equal wound dealers on the assumption people wanted to see more affs hidden behind wounds, especially when some affs are far more powerful. Monks WERE based on burst afflicting (like guardians) and lacked attrition design (like warriors). They gained higher damage but did crap wounding so it was not something that stacked much. I assume the goal is to bring them more like warriors, but with more "free" affs and the wounds for specific things. This is yet to be seen and can poke me in game if you have ideas. I am talking with peoples to try to get consensus.
@Aeldra: We could leave it to an extent. Healing needs changing though to avoid problem child combat.
I kinda like this idea, making monks out to be like "physical damage dealing" guardians; it also kind of fits into the idea of being a "spiritual" being, like a guardian, but of course using a weapon. Might be interesting seeing how that could play out.
Then again, my idea of what a monk is is skewed by Havastus being a Tahtetso, and that's the only Monk guild that I know.
To be fully prepared for tomorrow and probably more of an @Ieptix thing to answer my questions, but here is what I have for non-monk affs:
So, My lists show 38 monk affs that will be staying until the monk overhaul is done:
[spoiler] shortbreath - apply melancholic to chest twistedrightleg - apply mending to legs twistedleftleg - apply mending to legs twistedrightarm - apply mending to arms twistedleftarm - apply mending to arms shatteredrightankle - apply regeneration to legs shatteredleftankle - apply regeneration to legs lefttendon - apply regeneration to legs righttendon - apply regeneration to legs crackedrightelbow - apply regeneration to arms collapsedleftnerve - apply regeneration to arms collapsedrightnerve - apply regeneration to arms chestpain - apply regeneration to chest pinchednervehead - eat marjoram pinchednervechest - eat marjoram pinchednervegut - eat marjoram pinchednerverightarm - eat marjoram pinchednerveleftarm - eat marjoram dislocatedleftarm - eat marjoram dislocatedrightarm - eat marjoram dislocatedleftleg - eat marjoram dislocatedrightleg - eat marjoram slicedtongue - eat marjoram puncturedchest - eat marjoram missingleftear - eat marjoram missingrightear - eat marjoram slicedopengut - eat marjoram scrambledbrain - eat pennyroyal clotleftleg - eat yarrow clotrightleg - eat yarrow clotleftarm - eat yarrow clotrightarm - eat yarrow slicedopenforehead - eat yarrow laceratedrightarm - eat yarrow laceratedleftarm - eat yarrow laceratedrightleg - eat yarrow laceratedleftleg - eat yarrow relapsing - eat yarrow [/spoiler]
I also have 25 warrior affs, that should be going away? :
[spoiler] disemboweled - apply regeneration to gut burstorgans - apply regeneration to gut slicedleftbicep - eat marjoram slicedrightbicep - eat marjoram slicedleftthigh - eat marjoram slicedrightthigh - eat marjoram openchest - eat marjoram gashedcheek - eat marjoram rupturedstomach - apply regeneration to gut severedspine - apply regeneration to gut shatteredjaw - apply regeneration to head eyepeckleft - apply regeneration to head eyepeckright - apply regeneration to head concussion - apply regeneration to head crackedleftkneecap - apply regeneration to legs crackedrightkneecap - apply regeneration to legs puncturedlung - apply melancholic to chest scalped - drink sanguine furrowedbrow - drink sanguine throatlock - focus body leglock - focus body arteryrightarm - eat yarrow arteryleftarm - eat yarrow arteryrightleg - eat yarrow arteryleftleg - eat yarrow [/spoiler]
And lastly, I have 25 other affs that are still around: [spoiler] impatience - focus mind sprawled - stand asleep - wake fear - compose disrupted - concentrate entangled - writhe blackedout - drink allheale enfeeble - drink allheale shivering - drink fire frozen - drink fire ablaze - drink frost lovepotion - drink choleric void - drink phlegmatic burnlevel - apply liniment jinx - eat reishi succumb - eat reishi puncturedaura - eat reishi aurawarp - eat reishi justice - eat reishi temporaryinsanity - eat pennyroyal deafness - eat earwort blindness - eat faeleaf bedevil - eat horehound timewarp - eat horehound deadened - eat kombu [/spoiler]
There may be affs in these lists that are monks and I just overlooked (and their may be ones missing...)
-----
Some of these have special cures (asleep, fear, disrupted, sprawled, entangled.) - what is happening with these? Are they going away?
What about the ones that have other non-warrior affs on this list. I vaguely remember that Void was maybe staying? I believe there was some talk about making frost and fire potion effects into skills or we are going to have a few extra odd cures here and there (the original plan was to only have the 4 overhaul cures and nothing else)?
@Aeldra: We could leave it to an extent. Healing needs changing though to avoid problem child combat.
@Malarious I am not sure what you mean by "problem child" curing. Healing is a skill tree that focuses on exactly that, Healing. From my point of view, the new afflictions need to be able to be cured by healing like the old ones were cured.
If there's a balance concern regarding that, then I feel healing needs to change, because I mean it's healing main appeal: being able to cure stuff for you and other people. If we take that away / nerf that, then I think healing will need something so it keeping interesting, because if healing can't heal, what's the meaning of the skill tree?
EDIT: reworded to sound less angry, not sure why I always come off angry never been any intention.
(Nearly?) all of the overhaul afflictions that correspond to old afflictions that were curable via Healing maintain that property. However, healing will likely be, at the least, restructured some to account for the much smaller set of afflictions, and possibly adjusted mechanically. This, however, is not currently a priority; at present it should mirror pretty well the pre-Overhaul function of the skill.
@Aeldra: We could leave it to an extent. Healing needs changing though to avoid problem child combat.
@Malarious I am not sure what you mean by "problem child" curing. Healing is a skill tree that focuses on exactly that, Healing. From my point of view, the new afflictions need to be able to be cured by healing like the old ones were cured.
If there's a balance concern regarding that, then I feel healing needs to change, because I mean it's healing main appeal: being able to cure stuff for you and other people. If we take that away / nerf that, then I think healing will need something so it keeping interesting, because if healing can't heal, what's the meaning of the skill tree?
EDIT: reworded to sound less angry, not sure why I always come off angry never been any intention.
He means there's a grey area between "healing can't heal," and "unstoppable curing juggernaut." As a former healer who took full advantage of it in PK, it's absolutely one of the best group combat skillsets. Certain guilds, like researchers, with their self contained offenses, use it to tip the scales of PK in truly enormous way. Given that it's much easier to nerf a shared skillset like healing than it is to convince Hallifax to stop buffing aeros and do something about rubies or whatever, he's proposing a nerf to healing.
I'm not opposed. I've used it extensively, it's crazy in the hands of specific guilds in group PK. It can be nerfed and still be immensely valuable.
@Aeldra: We could leave it to an extent. Healing needs changing though to avoid problem child combat.
@Malarious I am not sure what you mean by "problem child" curing. Healing is a skill tree that focuses on exactly that, Healing. From my point of view, the new afflictions need to be able to be cured by healing like the old ones were cured.
If there's a balance concern regarding that, then I feel healing needs to change, because I mean it's healing main appeal: being able to cure stuff for you and other people. If we take that away / nerf that, then I think healing will need something so it keeping interesting, because if healing can't heal, what's the meaning of the skill tree?
EDIT: reworded to sound less angry, not sure why I always come off angry never been any intention.
He means there's a grey area between "healing can't heal," and "unstoppable curing juggernaut." As a former healer who took full advantage of it in PK, it's absolutely one of the best group combat skillsets. Certain guilds, like researchers, with their self contained offenses, use it to tip the scales of PK in truly enormous way. Given that it's much easier to nerf a shared skillset like healing than it is to convince Hallifax to stop buffing aeros and do something about rubies or whatever, he's proposing a nerf to healing.
I'm not opposed. I've used it extensively, it's crazy in the hands of specific guilds in group PK. It can be nerfed and still be immensely valuable.
I don't feel like that's what should be done. The "harder" route of nerfing the combination that's problematic is what I'd think is the right way. I would just ask to keep in mind that people who actually pick healing (such as me) because they enjoy the idea of having actual healing power should actually get something out of it that's a rough equivalent in usefulness to what they give up in offense by not picking the alternatives.
Avatar / Picture done by the lovely Gurashi.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited January 2016
Ultimately, I don't think interesting combat is about who can build the biggest fortress, which is really what healing (among other skillsets) does. Team X is more unkillable than Team Y so Team X wins. The crux of the argument is this: there's no strategy in healing. You put up auras, your system handles the background curing, and you mash your team kill buttons. The ability to extend a fight indefinitely might be enjoyable for the healer, but it's a terrible concept to balance around.
This is why things like cheap prismatics, and get out of death free cards like full and trueheal are disliked so severely.
@Celina thanks for always trying to making unclear combat points understandable for me. I appreciate that.
I agree with missing strategy in Healing, my point was more if you pick a defensive skillset, making it less defensive is chipping on the purpose on the skillset. Changing the mechanics to make them more strategical or something? Sure, why not.
@Aeldra: We could leave it to an extent. Healing needs changing though to avoid problem child combat.
@Malarious I am not sure what you mean by "problem child" curing. Healing is a skill tree that focuses on exactly that, Healing. From my point of view, the new afflictions need to be able to be cured by healing like the old ones were cured.
If there's a balance concern regarding that, then I feel healing needs to change, because I mean it's healing main appeal: being able to cure stuff for you and other people. If we take that away / nerf that, then I think healing will need something so it keeping interesting, because if healing can't heal, what's the meaning of the skill tree?
EDIT: reworded to sound less angry, not sure why I always come off angry never been any intention.
Celina mainly summarized this fairly well I think.
Healing is either a perfect wall (exceptions were burst vessels, wound building, possible bleeding, and mana/ego kills). All combo guilds (wiccans, guardians, bards, etc) were almost completely neutered by this. When 1 skillset hard counters 60%+ of every guild we have an issue. My idea was "duress", which would make healing stop being completely free to cast and require and consume eq, potentially with chances to fail the more afflicted you are so that you COULD be killed by combo guilds but have an edge early on.
I do not have it entirely worked out, but basically in PvE it would be identical but it would get worse in PvP to prevent being a hard counter to most tactics. A healer can tank 3-4 people if those people do not have something on the list above they can perform faster than healing.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
@Celina thanks for always trying to making unclear combat points understandable for me. I appreciate that.
I agree with missing strategy in Healing, my point was more if you pick a defensive skillset, making it less defensive is chipping on the purpose on the skillset. Changing the mechanics to make them more strategical or something? Sure, why not.
Well I think the most dramatic change you'll possibly see is a rework of auras and maybe healing to consume a short eq when used on oneself.
So this is a slight necro (although it is a pinned topic, so I'll blame it on that). What afflictions are there right now that aren't overhauled? My current list contains a lot of warrior affs, as well as thornlash (which I believe was reworked?), so I'm guessing a large amount of them are removed at this point.
So this is a slight necro (although it is a pinned topic, so I'll blame it on that). What afflictions are there right now that aren't overhauled? My current list contains a lot of warrior affs, as well as thornlash (which I believe was reworked?), so I'm guessing a large amount of them are removed at this point.
The in-game help file HELP CURELIST should be up to date, and if that isn't the case, please bug it. Most of the afflictions that are still listed are due to monks, but not all of them.
Comments
With the warrior stuff coming out Monday, Aside from the ones in your post, are all other affs being deleted - Things like kneecaps, shatteredankles, pinchednerves, etc or are all these affs also staying?
Edit: Unless all these are monk affs... /noncombatperson
Then again, my idea of what a monk is is skewed by Havastus being a Tahtetso, and that's the only Monk guild that I know.
So, My lists show 38 monk affs that will be staying until the monk overhaul is done:
[spoiler]
shortbreath - apply melancholic to chest
twistedrightleg - apply mending to legs
twistedleftleg - apply mending to legs
twistedrightarm - apply mending to arms
twistedleftarm - apply mending to arms
shatteredrightankle - apply regeneration to legs
shatteredleftankle - apply regeneration to legs
lefttendon - apply regeneration to legs
righttendon - apply regeneration to legs
crackedrightelbow - apply regeneration to arms
collapsedleftnerve - apply regeneration to arms
collapsedrightnerve - apply regeneration to arms
chestpain - apply regeneration to chest
pinchednervehead - eat marjoram
pinchednervechest - eat marjoram
pinchednervegut - eat marjoram
pinchednerverightarm - eat marjoram
pinchednerveleftarm - eat marjoram
dislocatedleftarm - eat marjoram
dislocatedrightarm - eat marjoram
dislocatedleftleg - eat marjoram
dislocatedrightleg - eat marjoram
slicedtongue - eat marjoram
puncturedchest - eat marjoram
missingleftear - eat marjoram
missingrightear - eat marjoram
slicedopengut - eat marjoram
scrambledbrain - eat pennyroyal
clotleftleg - eat yarrow
clotrightleg - eat yarrow
clotleftarm - eat yarrow
clotrightarm - eat yarrow
slicedopenforehead - eat yarrow
laceratedrightarm - eat yarrow
laceratedleftarm - eat yarrow
laceratedrightleg - eat yarrow
laceratedleftleg - eat yarrow
relapsing - eat yarrow
[/spoiler]
I also have 25 warrior affs, that should be going away? :
[spoiler]
disemboweled - apply regeneration to gut
burstorgans - apply regeneration to gut
slicedleftbicep - eat marjoram
slicedrightbicep - eat marjoram
slicedleftthigh - eat marjoram
slicedrightthigh - eat marjoram
openchest - eat marjoram
gashedcheek - eat marjoram
rupturedstomach - apply regeneration to gut
severedspine - apply regeneration to gut
shatteredjaw - apply regeneration to head
eyepeckleft - apply regeneration to head
eyepeckright - apply regeneration to head
concussion - apply regeneration to head
crackedleftkneecap - apply regeneration to legs
crackedrightkneecap - apply regeneration to legs
puncturedlung - apply melancholic to chest
scalped - drink sanguine
furrowedbrow - drink sanguine
throatlock - focus body
leglock - focus body
arteryrightarm - eat yarrow
arteryleftarm - eat yarrow
arteryrightleg - eat yarrow
arteryleftleg - eat yarrow
[/spoiler]
And lastly, I have 25 other affs that are still around:
[spoiler]
impatience - focus mind
sprawled - stand
asleep - wake
fear - compose
disrupted - concentrate
entangled - writhe
blackedout - drink allheale
enfeeble - drink allheale
shivering - drink fire
frozen - drink fire
ablaze - drink frost
lovepotion - drink choleric
void - drink phlegmatic
burnlevel - apply liniment
jinx - eat reishi
succumb - eat reishi
puncturedaura - eat reishi
aurawarp - eat reishi
justice - eat reishi
temporaryinsanity - eat pennyroyal
deafness - eat earwort
blindness - eat faeleaf
bedevil - eat horehound
timewarp - eat horehound
deadened - eat kombu
[/spoiler]
There may be affs in these lists that are monks and I just overlooked (and their may be ones missing...)
-----
Some of these have special cures (asleep, fear, disrupted, sprawled, entangled.) - what is happening with these? Are they going away?
What about the ones that have other non-warrior affs on this list. I vaguely remember that Void was maybe staying? I believe there was some talk about making frost and fire potion effects into skills or we are going to have a few extra odd cures here and there (the original plan was to only have the 4 overhaul cures and nothing else)?
@Malarious I am not sure what you mean by "problem child" curing. Healing is a skill tree that focuses on exactly that, Healing. From my point of view, the new afflictions need to be able to be cured by healing like the old ones were cured.
If there's a balance concern regarding that, then I feel healing needs to change, because I mean it's healing main appeal: being able to cure stuff for you and other people. If we take that away / nerf that, then I think healing will need something so it keeping interesting, because if healing can't heal, what's the meaning of the skill tree?
EDIT: reworded to sound less angry, not sure why I always come off angry
I agree with missing strategy in Healing, my point was more if you pick a defensive skillset, making it less defensive is chipping on the purpose on the skillset. Changing the mechanics to make them more strategical or something? Sure, why not.
Most of the afflictions that are still listed are due to monks, but not all of them.