@Ieptix When is the Void (replaced by healthleach) and Omen (replaced by achromaticaura) from the steam affs going to happen?
I'll be taking a look at void with an as-yet outstanding Dreamweaving envoy report. I'm not really certain if healthleech is likely to be terribly useful for dreamweavers, who are the only people who are able to give void currently, so I might just nix it entirely. (@Enyalida, thoughts?)
Can we keep Void? with Stupidity it helps DW be useful. Also I Love dreambody. And would prefer an overhaul that keeps it, to one that doesn't. And this is the first time I've heard of Druids being useful in 1v1.
Replaces blacklung. If there are cases where the important factor of blacklung is the balance loss instead of smoke blocking, replace with scabies instead.
Paralysis (Done)
Replaces ectoplasm (not done), no longer replaces pox.
Haemophilia
Rigormortis
Inclusion here may change depending on physical affs
Scabies
Pox
Replaces sunallergy
Dysentery
Replaces worms
Vomiting
Replaces vomiting blood, remove hunger drain, possibly move balance loss from vomiting blood to vomiting.
Powersap
Sickening
Replaces crotamine, changed to be a general affliction instead of Geo-only. Will cause a level 1 sip malus.
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Additionally, trembling will be replaced with epilepsy, and weakness with clumsiness.
A couple questions:
1) Why did we choose to save pox? We might have to rework it as an affliction so that it has some actual role in combat. As it is right now, being afflicted with pox is as good as not being afflicted as all, except for skills that need plague affs as a requirement.
2) I highly recommend adding the balance loss to vomiting, as well as moving over the bleeding.
3) Will sickening then be available to all warriors and monks via poisons? Also, what will happen to finalsting? I imagine that skill will need reworking, although chances are that's probably a welcome thing. I still think crotamine could have had a place in lusty combat though. A shame it's going.
4) What are we doing with blindness and deafness? Are those going to be under the last cure then? Further, how is sixthsense and truehearing going to be handled? Will they be the same as before?
Yes, I'm more than happy for the chance to finally rework finalsting. Currently, the only real way to pull it off is to cheese it using blackout, and I've not pulled it off, cheese or not, in a real fight yet. I'd much rather get a proper instakill. I've been getting feedback from other envoys and Nekotai about it. If you have any ideas, feel free to let me know via PMs or messages.
I'll also be happy to envoy sickening into poisons as an addition, though without looking at the physical affs, it's still difficult to see the big picture and how poisons + affs will work in general, and thus becomes difficult to say for certain what additions, if any, should be made to poisons. We'll be losing quite a few poisons, though, and I've been keeping track, so there certainly is room to add in stuff there.
Replaces blacklung. If there are cases where the important factor of blacklung is the balance loss instead of smoke blocking, replace with scabies instead.
Paralysis (Done)
Replaces ectoplasm (not done), no longer replaces pox.
Haemophilia
Rigormortis
Inclusion here may change depending on physical affs
Scabies
Pox
Replaces sunallergy
Dysentery
Replaces worms
Vomiting
Replaces vomiting blood, remove hunger drain, possibly move balance loss from vomiting blood to vomiting.
Powersap
Sickening
Replaces crotamine, changed to be a general affliction instead of Geo-only. Will cause a level 1 sip malus.
------------
Additionally, trembling will be replaced with epilepsy, and weakness with clumsiness.
A couple questions:
1) Why did we choose to save pox? We might have to rework it as an affliction so that it has some actual role in combat. As it is right now, being afflicted with pox is as good as not being afflicted as all, except for skills that need plague affs as a requirement.
2) I highly recommend adding the balance loss to vomiting, as well as moving over the bleeding.
3) Will sickening then be available to all warriors and monks via poisons? Also, what will happen to finalsting? I imagine that skill will need reworking, although chances are that's probably a welcome thing. I still think crotamine could have had a place in lusty combat though. A shame it's going.
4) What are we doing with blindness and deafness? Are those going to be under the last cure then? Further, how is sixthsense and truehearing going to be handled? Will they be the same as before?
1) There are a minimum of 10 afflictions for every bucket. If I recall correctly, we had a tough time filling physical internal. The main motivation for pox over something like sun-allergy is exactly what you noted: plague afflictions. There needs to be low impact afflictions in the plague affliction pool. We had already removed worms.
2) We can move the balance loss over.
3) Maybe, undecided. Whatever the envoys decide, Lerad has demonstrated he is more than competent so I leave it to him to come up with something suitable.
4) Deafness has to stay due to bards. Blindness I don't mind going, but it will require some tweaking for things like glamours and transfix. Nothing major I don't think.
@Rivius Unless it has been changed recently, vomiting blood doesn't cause bleeding. There have been many spirited conversations on the topic that all ended with "because I say so"
From my understanding it was a bonecrusher aff so no actual blood and the bleeding is internal and I need to let it go.
What are we doing with beast cure spirit? Will that eventually cure steam affs? What about the other beast cures when the relevant affs are converted. Also, will allheale still retain its function?
I'm curious to see how Healing as a whole will change. Will it just be a super small skillset once this is all over? New things to look out for?
Fun times.
I'm only cautiously optimistic because I've yet to see final word on how the focus skills are going to end up, but I hope that those with the healing skillset will finally be the undisputed masters of neutralizing afflictions in terms of speed as well as flexibility (with regards to the affliction heal-queues). I'm also hopeful that healers end up with more than two offensive abilities, and that everyone takes another look at the two offensive abilities we currently have. Aurawarp is really not that useful, when you take into consideration how quick dust balance is and how intermittently the affliction activates.
Things like beast cures and healing will be converted to the new system, after the system is fully fleshed out. There are no plans to make healing offensively oriented, specifically because we aren't reworking the design of skill sets. I would say healers pretty much are the undisputed masters of curing and flexibility, which is why I am loathe to add offensive skills.
I think a more generic affmessage system could help, if one isn't planned already.
Here's what I remember it looking like off the top of my head when you have both lines showing:
"You're feeling poxy."
You are afflicted with pox.
Instead I would like to see:
"You're feeling poxy."
Your skin needs purity dust!
This would be much, much easier to code up a system for. Especially if there was a message which says when you've cured all the purity dust offs. It would be a worse system than one which is affliction-specific of course but that's not a bad thing since the game needs people with bad systems.
1) Some things might have more than one cure. In general, the Healing skillset comes to mind, and there are other guildskills that also cure afflictions randomly.
2) Locking afflictions. Some afflictions are stopped by having other afflictions, and by just keeping tracks of what cures you need to apply, you'll run into major issues. You need to keep track of which afflictions you have so that you know if you can use a certain cure or not, otherwise you'll just end up wasting cures.
Further, finding out which cure you need is simple enough: Just check AFFS LIST and AFFS INFO <aff>. That'll immediately tell you which afflictions need which cures, and putting that info into a system shouldn't be very hard at all.
I think a more generic affmessage system could help, if one isn't planned already.
Here's what I remember it looking like off the top of my head when you have both lines showing:
"You're feeling poxy."
You are afflicted with pox.
Instead I would like to see:
"You're feeling poxy."
Your skin needs purity dust!
This would be much, much easier to code up a system for. Especially if there was a message which says when you've cured all the purity dust offs. It would be a worse system than one which is affliction-specific of course but that's not a bad thing since the game needs people with bad systems.
As Ssalliss said, given that you can do AFFS INFO <aff> and get all of the needed stuff, coding is rather easy. So, staying with the 'You are afflicted with' line is better. And for non-overhauled things, there is always WHATCURES <aff> and WHATISCUREDBY <cure>/
I'm going to have to defend my idea here, it doesn't matter if the messages aren't completely correct. The point would be to let people make a system out of < 20 lines. If such a system runs into errors, it could hopefully be improved incrementally by the player. If people die because their quick system has problems, that doesn't need to be viewed as an issue from a game design perspective.
Ultimately, any system worth improving would have to be rewritten to not track the "your skin needs purity dust," message but track individual afflictions in order to prioritize effectively, thus making the whole change somewhat fruitless. I'll also point out that the generic affliction line was implemented to make higher tier system easier to design with less clutter from multiple lines for the same affliction, so this change would make throwaway systems easier at the price of making systems that actually prioritize involve more lines. Hope that explains it!
I'm going to have to defend my idea here, it doesn't matter if the messages aren't completely correct. The point would be to let people make a system out of < 20 lines. If such a system runs into errors, it could hopefully be improved incrementally by the player. If people die because their quick system has problems, that doesn't need to be viewed as an issue from a game design perspective.
By using FirstAid, you can already make such a system with very few lines of code.
Let us say it does its job, you get afflicted with most anything and it is instantly gone. Heck with auras you can prep to stop things passively that guilds rely on (aeon for instance, lock combos as well). You are only really killable via attrition or afflictions healing does not deal with well (burst vessels, ectoplasm/cruc, etc). Now if things are perfect, you cannot have any real effect in combat. The trade off for near perfect defense should be total lack of an offense. This is not how this works for the guilds that have it, especially when most things are in groups. Healing can keep up a fair bit in groups, but you have full offensive potential in many cases (toad, absolve, etc).
Now let us look at the worst case scenario, things like Institute can fall into this potentially. You have healing and your offense doesn't care. Generally selecting healing should mean you have lost a crucial piece of your offense, as you should need soulless or hexes or such depending on guild. When your offense is self enclosed and healing becomes viable, you now counter most guilds at no opportunity cost to yourself.
Healing falls into one of these two using the present system. I would like to see some changes, such as making healing work exactly as it does now IF you are masochistic. If you enter combat we should slow healing down to consume eq/bal or use a timer. This would allow guilds that rely on a combo to still use their combo in part, though not perfectly as nothing stops "cure aeon" unless we have an aff or effect that will impede healing in each guild that requires a combo.
Auras would need to have some other form of limitation if maintained while not masochistic, or make them "unable to be maintained" while in combat.
This would leave healing useful for noncoms, but prevent issues in combat from allowing stone walls.
Example effects to mess with things (potentially only relevant in combat so it does not effect PvE):
- Confusion. You are unable to focus on curing yourself.
- Paranoia. You can't be distracted with that, they are after you!
- Healthleech. Give it an effect to drain health when you attempt to heal or cure yourself.
Those are not good ideas per se, but they are examples of how to allow certain guilds to implement a way to get around healing if they would need it.
The above are examples, but reflect that healing should not mean a fight is either entirely one sided or pointless. If we toned down healings defense, I think we could look into more offense!
With the current state of things, offense always seems to trump defense. I don't know much about how Healing synergizes with non-Celestine skillsets, but I don't think it synergizes well with Celestines at all (as we are already very heavy on defensive abilities). The best healing skill in the game, I would argue, is in Sacraments rather than Healing.
One thing that really upsets me is that if I am doing nothing but healing/curing someone, they can still die in a 2v1 (me + them as the 2) fight, due to mechanics unrelated to health drain or afflictions: that is, they die even though I keep them at full health and free of curable afflictions. If having the healing skillset makes me the best healer in the game, then I should be able to prevent someone from dying so long as I'm not doing any offensive actions. Again, I'm constantly left with the impression that offense always trumps defense in Lusternia.
I realize that the overhaul isn't meant to be an overhaul of the healing skillset, but I hope it gets looked into thoroughly at some point in the future. I play a healer for the rp-aspect, and I'm left feeling constantly gimped because of it (guild and city members often try to convince me to switch to tarot). While reading the Lusternia histories, I was really intrigued by some of the healing lore, like the healer mounds, and the ability to shape life essence to cure, empower, and yes, even HARM others. I was sad to see that the healing skillset was essentially plucked right out of Achaea without any real attempt at integration into Lusternian canon.
Curing/healing another person costs eq, curing/healing yourself does not. The person you are curing will also die in certain instances, for instance warriors win on attrition. You won't keep wounds down in a 2v1, so they will be slowly dying indirectly. If someone has a cheese (haegl spammer + wiccan is going to toad, you cant stop mana). You are a brick wall, other people with your support still are not. I am more than fine with toning down the combat applications of the curing and improving offense ala inverting a cure. inflict malarious neurosis, maybe 1p or something to get a specific affliction (would take testing and time to look at).
In the 2v1, if the target is meant to die from afflictions, they are less likely to. For instance monks are all about afflictions, it is what forms are made for, but if they aren't curing wounds damage will build up. If someone is curing wounds very well and you keep them from being afflicted we will have a hard time even in a 2v1. If you were institute or shadowdancer you would have more offense with healing.
If you have any ideas for the Nekotai insta, feel free to message me. I already have a report written, but more ideas always welcome. I think sickening is being changed to a passive level 1 sip malus, so there are no more ticks.
I won't go too deeply into the healing conversation because it does veer somewhat off topic from the Overhaul, but healing has basically two versions. The self curing version which is extremely flexible with a few limitations, and the targeted curing of a second party version which has more obvious limitations, but with the added flexibility of a complete affliction/damage/wound reset on any target you choose at a significant cost of your own personal resources. I will say that the design for second party healing, as far as my perspective goes given that I'm not the one who designed it, is not to make the target invincible so that may be where the disconnect is. Or at least, not in the same way self healing can accomplish such a goal. The resources and tools are different. You aren't intended to cure/heal (the skills) a person through any scenario.
Any change to that design, be it Malarious's proposed nerfs or your proposed buffs, would have to go through the envoys. You may benefit from a thread on healing, I know there have been some successful PKers that were healers (predominantly Shadowdancers and Researchers as Malarious noted) that might be able to offer you some insight. I don't mind offering a more in depth perspective myself on the functionality of healing, just not in the Overhaul thread!
@Esano: Envoys for the Nekotai insta. Ieptix also proposed changing sickness to a sip malus so it would be reworked entirely.
Antidote, which previously cured Powersap (already changed) and Crotamine (about to be changed) Choleric, which previously cured Dysentery, Worms (both already changed), Vomiting and Vomitingblood (both about to change). It will still technically cure Lovepotion. Phlegmatic, which previously cured Aeon, Shyness and Weakness will become obsolete once Void is dealt with.
So yay, less potions to keep track of soon (unless I missed something).
I honestly think that Healing is better than Sacraments, on a purely defensive sense. However, if you take in the offensive abilities in Sacraments(and there's quite a few of them - good ones too). The general consensus the last time I asked around(which was a few days ago) is that if Healers want some offense in their skills, then the defensive kit has to be toned down. Also, @Kalliste, as you said, your kit as a Celestine is already defense oriented - and you took(or at least kept) Healing knowing with this awareness. Clearly, if the Celestine kit is defense oriented, then as a PKer it makes better sense to pick a skillset that complements it offensively(Tarot). Celestine Healers are not "punished" for choosing Healing as a skillset. The entire premise of Healing is foregoing offense(except for the last 2 skills, and the neurosis aura which can be used offensively) for a solid defense.
Your tertiary choice should complement what you're class as well as your goals in-game. Some terts just synergize better offensively or defensively depending on your class. Every guild lives with it.
That being said, I am not totally against the idea of reworking Healing to steer it away from MUAHAHAHACAN'TSTICKYOURAFFSONMEHURHURHUR into something else - and this requires its own thread.
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
Comments
There are no plans to make healing offensively oriented, specifically because we aren't reworking the design of skill sets. I would say healers pretty much are the undisputed masters of curing and flexibility, which is why I am loathe to add offensive skills.
1) Some things might have more than one cure. In general, the Healing skillset comes to mind, and there are other guildskills that also cure afflictions randomly.
2) Locking afflictions. Some afflictions are stopped by having other afflictions, and by just keeping tracks of what cures you need to apply, you'll run into major issues. You need to keep track of which afflictions you have so that you know if you can use a certain cure or not, otherwise you'll just end up wasting cures.
Further, finding out which cure you need is simple enough: Just check AFFS LIST and AFFS INFO <aff>. That'll immediately tell you which afflictions need which cures, and putting that info into a system shouldn't be very hard at all.
Any change to that design, be it Malarious's proposed nerfs or your proposed buffs, would have to go through the envoys. You may benefit from a thread on healing, I know there have been some successful PKers that were healers (predominantly Shadowdancers and Researchers as Malarious noted) that might be able to offer you some insight. I don't mind offering a more in depth perspective myself on the functionality of healing, just not in the Overhaul thread!
@Esano: Envoys for the Nekotai insta. Ieptix also proposed changing sickness to a sip malus so it would be reworked entirely.
Antidote, which previously cured Powersap (already changed) and Crotamine (about to be changed)
Choleric, which previously cured Dysentery, Worms (both already changed), Vomiting and Vomitingblood (both about to change). It will still technically cure Lovepotion.
Phlegmatic, which previously cured Aeon, Shyness and Weakness will become obsolete once Void is dealt with.
So yay, less potions to keep track of soon (unless I missed something).
Your tertiary choice should complement what you're class as well as your goals in-game. Some terts just synergize better offensively or defensively depending on your class. Every guild lives with it.
That being said, I am not totally against the idea of reworking Healing to steer it away from MUAHAHAHACAN'TSTICKYOURAFFSONMEHURHURHUR into something else - and this requires its own thread.
But now I'm getting:
-firstaid add scabies
No such affliction "scabies" found.
Is this a bug, a known issue that is gonna be fixed at some future point, or is firstaid just not gonna be used anymore?