Just to double check, asthma change won't be put in until the end of all the afflictions, when all the other locking affs are put in, right?
Is there a specific reason dysentry and powersap are staying, like, are they currently being used by Mag archetypes for kills or something? Dysentry just does a little damage, right, or am I remembering wrongly? It's been a long while since I've had to deal with dysentry. Powersap might have a niche use, I guess, though.
The reason I ask is because there's still a ton of physical afflictions left, and the salve tree might be humongous if things are left as they are. Which is fine, of course, but if we want to cut down on afflictions, it's also always a possibility to take a couple of those that might thematically be "internal" afflictions from the physical aff list and put them here, right? There are a lot of physical affs which are currently cured on herb balance as well, and slotting all of those into salve balance might make salve balance too important for warrior/monks by making senso much stronger, and making it more difficult for warrior/monks to do non salve stacks. Which isn't a bad thing for warrior/monks, mind, because if all of our physical affs are on one balance, that just makes it easier for us to stack them all... which might not be a good idea for everyone else.
The alternative to that scenario would be to cut down a laaarge amount of physical affs... which might not be very desirable either.
Hmm. I went through the Overhaul posts to assemble an Excel sheet of afflictions converted/removed/slated to be removed, and came upon one thing:
In Overhaul post 15, it states "stupidity will replace daydreaming, narcolepsy, and hypersomnia". However, Overhaul post 19 states "Stupidity has further replaced the daydreaming and narcolepsy afflictions". Was Hypersomnia also converted and missed in the post, or was it changed to be overhauled to something else, or was it simply missed?
On an unrelated note, I also noticed that the overhauled afflictions (and the ones replaced by them) have been removed from WHATCURES <stuff> and WHATISCUREDBY <stuff>, which is kinda awesome. However, there are a couple of afflictions missed in that process, namely:
Not sure if they were just missed, or if it's something that's not really worth the time (which I can kinda understand), but figured I'd point them out since I found them.
Also, in case anyone's curious, after the internal affs are handled there will be 157 afflictions left (assuming my list of afflictions is correct, which it very well might not be). Of those, 72 starts with Amputated, Broken, Clot, Collapsed, Cracked, Crushed, Dislocated, Lacerated, Mangled, Pierced, Pinched, Punctured, Shattered, Sliced, Thornlashed or Twisted.
That's more than I thought there would be, I was actually estimating more like 30. Hrm, I guess if we "count" the different bodypart versions as one, then it'll be closer to my estimate.
It also doesn't account for "one-off" afflictions, like slitthroat, rupturedstomach, impaledgut, scrambledbrain etc. So there's a lot of fat to trim down when it comes to warrior affs. Frankly, I'd be perfectly fine with basically doing levelled afflictions; you'd have broken/mangled/amputated arms/legs/head/chest/gut, and voila, we have it down from 80'ish to 21. Of course, I'm no warrior or even a fighter, so odds are it isn't quite that simple. But it'd be nice if it were.
The current broken/mangled/amputated is already levelled in that way, iirc. Curing amputates will leave you with mangles, and that after, will leave you with broken limbs. Deleting everything else will mean retooling how the entire warrior archetype works, since you basically delete pretty much 80% of the knighthood specialisations.
Another way to trim that fat will be to identify affs with similar effects and rolling them together (eg tendons and mangles are almost the same). Then identifying the effects that we want to keep, and the effects we can throw away (scalping, ears, the various sliced affs are all minor, filler effects for the "light/medium" deepwound levels of warrior combat). Even then, this will still mean a major relook at warrior mechanics, I expect (including some aff stacking based monks, like Nekotai and Tahtetso).
Getting ahead of myself. It's still far ahead, we're still at internal affs. I'm excited to see what is planned, but it's probably nowhere near decided yet. Oh well.
Rolling together mangles and tendons has a very very big impact on the relevant guilds. Basically if you can do a softlock during a mangle it is still a hardlock because the mangle cures into broken leg, this is not true for the tendon version of things. Also curious if paralysis will be an eat cure that things like slit throat will specifically not prevent curing of, or we will have new locks.
Why are people asking about physical affs? Did we get a list of changes on that?
EDIT: My two cents on some of the affs....
Removables:
- Twisted limbs are given by one guild (Ninjakari) and can likely go away. ( -4 affs)
- Transfix I do not generally see a use for, and I would argue it could poof. (-1 aff)
- ScrambledBrain is Tahtetso only. (-1 aff)
- I cannot even quote where lower paralysis tends to be caused from, Tahtetso maybe? There isn't even an upper. (-1 aff)
- Short breath could be converted to an effect that reduces movement speed, automatically fades. Think this usually comes up because of asthma anyway. ( -1 aff)
- Stink can go away. (-1 aff)
- Can succumb go away? Both wiccans do active aeon, it only makes sense they get some active drains potentially too. (-1 aff)
- Combine some of the things like gunk, mud, and mucous. We really just need one thing that slows movement, and mucous only has one source as do most of them. (-2 affs)
- We could likely remove damaged head, the only way I am familiar with getting it is when concussion is cured. (-1 aff)
Not on Subo's list
- Mangled tongue is a shofangi only aff, and can likely go away. (-1 aff)
- Pinchednerve <area> is Nekotai only. It is nice but I could see the functions rolled into another aff. (-7 affs)
Changables:
- Trussed has a requirement or a power cost, but is otherwise basically identical to hinders. Unless it is set up to stop summer/tiph, I would rather see the skill faster and just give a form of entanglement.
- Kneeling isn't really an aff. It is an effect that causes prone and a stun. Autocures on most any action generally.
That is 21ish affs removed presently! Open to thoughts and all, just some ideas pitched in.
Why are people asking about physical affs? Did we get a list of changes on that?
because the aff groups are trying to be set to around 10 affs. With the physical affs, there is many that are more than one (each limb being a different aff). This could mean that instead of 'brokenX' which is four affs, it could just become 'brokenlimb' which is only one and things like broken legs and arms won't exist anymore. I would very much be interested in seeing where they go with the external physical list.
Rolling together mangles and tendons has a very very big impact on the relevant guilds. Basically if you can do a softlock during a mangle it is still a hardlock because the mangle cures into broken leg, this is not true for the tendon version of things. Also curious if paralysis will be an eat cure that things like slit throat will specifically not prevent curing of, or we will have new locks.
Why are people asking about physical affs? Did we get a list of changes on that?
EDIT: My two cents on some of the affs....
Removables:
- Twisted limbs are given by one guild (Ninjakari) and can likely go away. ( -4 affs)
- Transfix I do not generally see a use for, and I would argue it could poof. (-1 aff)
- ScrambledBrain is Tahtetso only. (-1 aff)
- I cannot even quote where lower paralysis tends to be caused from, Tahtetso maybe? There isn't even an upper. (-1 aff)
- Short breath could be converted to an effect that reduces movement speed, automatically fades. Think this usually comes up because of asthma anyway. ( -1 aff)
- Stink can go away. (-1 aff)
- Can succumb go away? Both wiccans do active aeon, it only makes sense they get some active drains potentially too. (-1 aff)
- Combine some of the things like gunk, mud, and mucous. We really just need one thing that slows movement, and mucous only has one source as do most of them. (-2 affs)
- We could likely remove damaged head, the only way I am familiar with getting it is when concussion is cured. (-1 aff)
Not on Subo's list
- Mangled tongue is a shofangi only aff, and can likely go away. (-1 aff)
- Pinchednerve <area> is Nekotai only. It is nice but I could see the functions rolled into another aff. (-7 affs)
Changables:
- Trussed has a requirement or a power cost, but is otherwise basically identical to hinders. Unless it is set up to stop summer/tiph, I would rather see the skill faster and just give a form of entanglement.
- Kneeling isn't really an aff. It is an effect that causes prone and a stun. Autocures on most any action generally.
That is 21ish affs removed presently! Open to thoughts and all, just some ideas pitched in.
Lower hemiplegy is from Tahtetso, yup. Can go away.
In the same line of twisted limbs, Tahtetso can also dislocate limbs for passive wounding until cured (same idea there, yeah?) and can go away. -4 affs.
I think Transfix can stay as long as it's moved away from Transmology Spix and remains firmly in Glamours. Two spixes from two Illuminati can be very brutal, as their offence already is.
All entangles are being folded into one affliction, and cleanse cures are entirely going away (so it has been said). Tentativly, it's been said that things like the four broken limbs are going to survive, and that curing them is going to mimic the limb based curing we already have: Apply ice to legs, apply ice to arms, etc.
@Ieptix When is the Void (replaced by healthleach) and Omen (replaced by achromaticaura) from the steam affs going to happen?
I'll be taking a look at void with an as-yet outstanding Dreamweaving envoy report. I'm not really certain if healthleech is likely to be terribly useful for dreamweavers, who are the only people who are able to give void currently, so I might just nix it entirely. (@Enyalida, thoughts?)
As for omen, there is a report for the next cycle dealing with it, and it's probable that the ability will receive a new functionality entirely and so that replacement will be made unnecessary.
Just to double check, asthma change won't be put in until the end of all the afflictions, when all the other locking affs are put in, right?
Is there a specific reason dysentry and powersap are staying, like, are they currently being used by Mag archetypes for kills or something? Dysentry just does a little damage, right, or am I remembering wrongly? It's been a long while since I've had to deal with dysentry. Powersap might have a niche use, I guess, though.
Correct, re: asthma.
Dysentery is periodic EQ loss (and stink, which is irrevelant). It's sticking around to act as a complement to scabies, which is periodic balance loss. Powersap is sticking around because I like it.
In Overhaul post 15, it states "stupidity will replace daydreaming, narcolepsy, and hypersomnia". However, Overhaul post 19 states "Stupidity has further replaced the daydreaming and narcolepsy afflictions". Was Hypersomnia also converted and missed in the post, or was it changed to be overhauled to something else, or was it simply missed?
On an unrelated note, I also noticed that the overhauled afflictions (and the ones replaced by them) have been removed from WHATCURES <stuff> and WHATISCUREDBY <stuff>, which is kinda awesome. However, there are a couple of afflictions missed in that process, namely:
Not sure if they were just missed, or if it's something that's not really worth the time (which I can kinda understand), but figured I'd point them out since I found them.
Re: hypersomnia: It turned out hypersomnia was a legacy affliction that was coded, but was used in precisely zero places, so there wasn't anything to replace.
Any action taken in Dreambody is not terribly useful to Dreamweavers, by default: You shouldn't be fighting in dreambody. The only two that had/have remote use are void - for the spamming - and induce to try and get someone to tumble into your group.
I know I'm biased in this direction, but Dreamweaving will need substantial facelifts to be worth anything post-overhaul. Not only has it long been the least useful mage tert, it's currently at the bottom of the heap for Druids too. Without daydreaming or narcolepsy, what was a very strong, but very prep-intensive sap lock is drastically weaker, far easier for competent modern curing to cure right on out of. It also gutted the active options for the DW, leaving only a single aff on motes (with no good replacements for the other motes cropping up) or blackout spam. Ouch.
But, admin chatter on Envoys when I brought up DW problems was "The combat meta didn't need any of this stuff, I promise", so I've kind of written it off.
For the Dreambody, the best outcome would be to introduce a 'dreamaura' mechanic. The dreamweaver can surround themself with dreamstuff of a particular timbre, that impose various effects on the person they are linked or tethered to. Depending on if the person is allied or enemied the dreamaura can help or hurt them, with effects like periodic mental affliction/mental affliction curing, periodic vitals drain/heal, etc. This enhances the 'combat support for non-coms' element that is evidently the purpose of dreambody.
My ideal rework for regular DW would replace the sleep attrition in its current form (which is only useful for druids in sap, honestly) with a resource mechanic, which at its extreme end woukd allow potential combo attacks to deal afflictions/vitals pressure once the target is sleepy enough to be effected by your spooky dreamstuff. DW would still possess the slow building it always has, but this kind of mechanic would also hopefully give them something active and bursty to do: burst is, and always has been, king of combat. @Maligorn suggested some really cool fluff for it. From my understanding of recent Events, it would be cool.
Dysentry and shivering will be the same afflictions, just cured differently and being thematically different, huh. Although I still think it might be better to drop Dysentry anyway, I guess it can't be helped.
I left void (the skill, not the affliction) there so that weavers would have the opportunity to envoy it as they saw fit. I didn't have any ideas off the top of my head so the immediate and simplest solution was swap in an affliction which, admittedly, has little value. There was also some chatter about reworking healthleech among the envoys. It's certainly a good opportunity.
The issue with weavers is that sleep attrition is a very powerful as a mechanic in conjunction with sap, the hands down favorite for high end 1v1 combat for this reason, which was compounded when allergies making a really nightmarish combination to deal with. In my opinion, the interaction of the two attrition mechanics made the sap strategy remarkably easy to accomplish, made worse by a class that, in most 1v1s, has little issue playing cat and mouse until the attrition has reached a point where the target either has to run and sleep (which has its own consequences) and wait off allergies. (Keep in mind that though is my opinion of the state of balance, it wasn't the motivation behind the weaver changes, that was purely bloat related). Attrition is one of those really difficult aspects of PK to balance around because it typically remains stationary while curing improves and strategies develop by nature of it having no cure nor new counter, which is why you can trace back weaver lock down strategies back to matches like Alianna vs Thoros many years ago. DW druid sap lock has been made weaker, I do believe that is an accurate statement, but we're talking going from a 9.5 to a 9 on a scale of 1-10.
Having observed and practiced dreamweaver strategies, they can usually be broken down to group memoryloss spam (which has its own issues balance wise) or cat and mouse attrition fights in 1v1/small groups with little threat for an able bodied druid to ever lose, and an unfairly imbalanced onus on the target to constantly run to avoid attrition building to a no-win scenario. The impact of the other motes was, ultimately, itty bitty and thus removed from the equation because they contributed to the bloat without heavily influencing the existing strategies.This is why I had no concerns when we took the hatchet to the bundle of dreamweaver unique afflictions, they had little influence on the druid meta and it remained bottom of the barrel for mages. The meta was the attrition, and the afflictions were icing.
I've never personally said dreamweaving doesn't need nor warrant a facelift of sorts, I'm not at all opposed to the idea. The job was reducing the bloat, however, not redesigning classes, so the bloat was reduced in the current context of dreamweaving. The trick is selling that you need attrition/slow build mechanics with no cure to the envoys, and that you warrant buffs to anything so long as the mechanic exists, which based on the feedback I get about attrition, is a tall order.
It's not so much the handsdown it was anymore. It was the unholy quadrinity of sleep attrition, narcolepsy, daydreaming, and epilepsy that really locked someone down in sap.
Good systems should have very very little trouble dealing with just sleep attrition + epilepsy (hint: You want to turn metawake back on under sap, it's REALLY hard to turn back off, and then your system can cure epilepsy/stand and cure FAR easier). Daydreaming and Narcolepsy were by no means "itty bitty", it was a huge part of how the lock worked against anyone not using out-of-the-box m&m. Faced up against people using more powerful sap-curing systems (or who had significantly tinkered with/modded m&m) that made better assumptions and pre-started cures in sap (something m&m 100% doesn't do, I think) I'd be willing to bet you cannot hold a sap with DW solo right now - I know that these people were difficult to sap with all of the motes still in - and I've had a LOT of practice. Against those with poor curing, I wouldn't even bother with the attrition, it's a 16p cost to perform with any kind of speed, after all.
But that's more or less correct. In a situation where the Druid is not being focused by two people (as druids only really have one "escape" skill once hindered: flow), and can take ~2 minutes to dance around their target, they could pull off an almost inescapable saplock, assuming no one walked in to point cleanse at the victim. In the looooong run, the druid would always win against a similarly skilled single opponent, who would have bad luck with one of the timers eventually. That's just nothing like what the flow of combat actually is, of course.
And, the trick usually is figuring out what will mysteriously get Sol. 4'd poorly or turned down for fluff reasons, generally.
E: I have no idea how to reasonably facelift the skillset without redesigning it. None of the existing affs are appropriate for a mote or useful enough in sap (or in general, for delivering 1 aff for 1p). The problem of sleep attrition will continue to be an issue.
Honestly, the easiest way to fix DW bloat would be to erase dreambody, or remove all but the utility skills from it. They never see use, I think.
Yeah I'd rather just avoid keeping attrition all together if we can help it. DW already is overly reliant on this to kill at the top level, so I am fine with redesigns that shift the meta away from this imo boring tactic.
PS you guys sure hate transfix, mucus, sluggishness, and ectoplasm. Hmm. Tasty.
I have some thematic ideas, and a combat flow I think would be cool, but I'm at a loss for mathing out the fine details.
You are not alone! Reworking entire skills is not an easy thing to come up with from scratch. I, personally, am paranoid that my "awesome" ideas are only awesome to me, which is why I try to leave the redesigns to the envoys (Silvanus is a great example of unique and useful skills making their way through the envoys.)
That being said, the math doesn't need to be flawless from the start, if the idea is sound then the math can be altered over time.
Don't quote me on this, but I think the only solution 4 you got this last batch of envoys was the spring trap/summon resistance change. Which kept the spirit of the report's change, but was easier to implement. When I make my suggestions on reports to the other admin, I try to keep within the bounds of the report as much as possible.
Until the introduction of Interference, TP has been relatively the same overall since it's introduction, and until my report before the report freeze, all the affs used have been the same since day 1.
Yeah I'd rather just avoid keeping attrition all together if we can help it. DW already is overly reliant on this to kill at the top level, so I am fine with redesigns that shift the meta away from this imo boring tactic.
PS you guys sure hate transfix, mucus, sluggishness, and ectoplasm. Hmm. Tasty.
Hate transfix, mucous, sluggish, and ecto? No. Sluggish was a mistake, uncurable super affs are. Mucous is kind of like mud or ground being frozen, aka can go away/be replaced. Transfix isn't bad, but should not really be a passive. It was viable for bards in glamours, mostly it since it was removed from a number of other skills (like sacraments). Ecto I like, for Nihilists at least it was a useful skill and part of a kill method. Not sure why illum got that one.
My goal wasn't to remove "afflictions I hate", just afflictions in general. The less sources of it, the easier it can go away. I am sad about the loss of ecto from Nihilists (and omen).
EDIT: @ieptix@saesh How long have spring traps looked at resistance? Because they allowed chains of like 14 in a row for a long time.......
The point of that report was not to make springtraps respect summon resistance, it was to make long chains of springtraps impossible by creating a mounting summon resistance each trap you hit. The Sol. 4 (which was already implemented) didn't address that issue, really. So yeah, that is one of the times I'm talking about, heh.
It's not really just you. I just like pointing out people using the overhaul thread to nerf things they think are overpowered under the guise of simplification.
Hilarious.
Mucus can be folded together, I already have a plan for illu ecto, transfix I don't think they're getting rid of but if true sight is going then spix needs changing (but only then), and sluggishness can stay but if the admin want it fine I already have plans for it anyway.
Also the spring trap report was solution 4ed for sure.
I really want to get Shamanism for woods looked at right now with respect to the demesne effects, but I'm still data mining.
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
Also, I'm currently gathering info as to what affliction replaced by another affliction for the sake of getting the AB's for Healing updated. Currently looking at a possible suggestion for a Bedevil change since Estarra asked for it.
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
Comments
In Overhaul post 15, it states "stupidity will replace daydreaming, narcolepsy, and hypersomnia". However, Overhaul post 19 states "Stupidity has further replaced the daydreaming and narcolepsy afflictions". Was Hypersomnia also converted and missed in the post, or was it changed to be overhauled to something else, or was it simply missed?
On an unrelated note, I also noticed that the overhauled afflictions (and the ones replaced by them) have been removed from WHATCURES <stuff> and WHATISCUREDBY <stuff>, which is kinda awesome. However, there are a couple of afflictions missed in that process, namely:
Clumsiness
Disloyalty
Healthleech
Aeon
Pacified
Lovers
Peaced
Not sure if they were just missed, or if it's something that's not really worth the time (which I can kinda understand), but figured I'd point them out since I found them.
[SPOILER]
In the same line of twisted limbs, Tahtetso can also dislocate limbs for passive wounding until cured (same idea there, yeah?) and can go away. -4 affs.
I think Transfix can stay as long as it's moved away from Transmology Spix and remains firmly in Glamours. Two spixes from two Illuminati can be very brutal, as their offence already is.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
I left void (the skill, not the affliction) there so that weavers would have the opportunity to envoy it as they saw fit. I didn't have any ideas off the top of my head so the immediate and simplest solution was swap in an affliction which, admittedly, has little value. There was also some chatter about reworking healthleech among the envoys. It's certainly a good opportunity.
The issue with weavers is that sleep attrition is a very powerful as a mechanic in conjunction with sap, the hands down favorite for high end 1v1 combat for this reason, which was compounded when allergies making a really nightmarish combination to deal with. In my opinion, the interaction of the two attrition mechanics made the sap strategy remarkably easy to accomplish, made worse by a class that, in most 1v1s, has little issue playing cat and mouse until the attrition has reached a point where the target either has to run and sleep (which has its own consequences) and wait off allergies. (Keep in mind that though is my opinion of the state of balance, it wasn't the motivation behind the weaver changes, that was purely bloat related). Attrition is one of those really difficult aspects of PK to balance around because it typically remains stationary while curing improves and strategies develop by nature of it having no cure nor new counter, which is why you can trace back weaver lock down strategies back to matches like Alianna vs Thoros many years ago. DW druid sap lock has been made weaker, I do believe that is an accurate statement, but we're talking going from a 9.5 to a 9 on a scale of 1-10.
Having observed and practiced dreamweaver strategies, they can usually be broken down to group memoryloss spam (which has its own issues balance wise) or cat and mouse attrition fights in 1v1/small groups with little threat for an able bodied druid to ever lose, and an unfairly imbalanced onus on the target to constantly run to avoid attrition building to a no-win scenario. The impact of the other motes was, ultimately, itty bitty and thus removed from the equation because they contributed to the bloat without heavily influencing the existing strategies.This is why I had no concerns when we took the hatchet to the bundle of dreamweaver unique afflictions, they had little influence on the druid meta and it remained bottom of the barrel for mages. The meta was the attrition, and the afflictions were icing.
I've never personally said dreamweaving doesn't need nor warrant a facelift of sorts, I'm not at all opposed to the idea. The job was reducing the bloat, however, not redesigning classes, so the bloat was reduced in the current context of dreamweaving. The trick is selling that you need attrition/slow build mechanics with no cure to the envoys, and that you warrant buffs to anything so long as the mechanic exists, which based on the feedback I get about attrition, is a tall order.
PS you guys sure hate transfix, mucus, sluggishness, and ectoplasm. Hmm. Tasty.
Signature!
Hilarious.
Mucus can be folded together, I already have a plan for illu ecto, transfix I don't think they're getting rid of but if true sight is going then spix needs changing (but only then), and sluggishness can stay but if the admin want it fine I already have plans for it anyway.
Also the spring trap report was solution 4ed for sure.