You also have to keep in mind that Celest, Hallifax (and even Serenwilde) were willing to ceasefire with Glomdoring when it was at its weakest instead of taking the opportunity to raze it to the ground while we had the chance. Again, that's the PK environment changing. We all know OOC that that's a rough deal and it's just not gonna fly with our low population, so I feel like there was a lot of OOC feelings of "we're not gonna antagonize these guys until they get back on their feet, and we might even be friends by then", and of course IC with the Ascension so close during that critical time of alliances. If you want to see who Glomdoring banked on in their time of deadness, you only need to see who got ascended.
I would definitely point at this for why people seem upset for what would otherwise be PK as usual. Glomdoring's move at ascension was surprising (and from our perspective, awesome) and the fun of things like @Siam making a one-man aetherbubble capture and interactions have made a lot of people in Hallifax want to keep working with Glom. I know I enjoyed the astral hunts a while back with Glom members, and the new avenues for RP interaction. If people in Hallifax (and my impression is that this is true in Celest, too) seem a little cranky about anything that @Celina is doing, it's got nothing at all to do with the PK itself and everything to do with the fact that it feels like one person trying to tell three orgs how things are going to go, whether anyone else wants its or not.
A major problem is that Celina has a binary mindset. IE, "you're either on our side or against us", whereas Kamehameha is comfortable being friends with Glomdoring (to keep them from attacking Celest), while defending a "closer" friend from Glomdoring. This is evidenced by the fact that Kelly will defend Seren from Glom, and will defend Glom against Mag Marcella and/or Arcanis.
Kelly is just good at priorities.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
You also have to keep in mind that Celest, Hallifax (and even Serenwilde) were willing to ceasefire with Glomdoring when it was at its weakest instead of taking the opportunity to raze it to the ground while we had the chance. Again, that's the PK environment changing. We all know OOC that that's a rough deal and it's just not gonna fly with our low population, so I feel like there was a lot of OOC feelings of "we're not gonna antagonize these guys until they get back on their feet, and we might even be friends by then", and of course IC with the Ascension so close during that critical time of alliances. If you want to see who Glomdoring banked on in their time of deadness, you only need to see who got ascended.
I would definitely point at this for why people seem upset for what would otherwise be PK as usual. Glomdoring's move at ascension was surprising (and from our perspective, awesome) and the fun of things like @Siam making a one-man aetherbubble capture and interactions have made a lot of people in Hallifax want to keep working with Glom. I know I enjoyed the astral hunts a while back with Glom members, and the new avenues for RP interaction. If people in Hallifax (and my impression is that this is true in Celest, too) seem a little cranky about anything that @Celina is doing, it's got nothing at all to do with the PK itself and everything to do with the fact that it feels like one person trying to tell three orgs how things are going to go, whether anyone else wants its or not.
I would like to point out that my character has yet to breach the alliance/treaty/NAP/whatever in any way, shape, or form. Literally every PK encounter has been initiated by Celest, and Hallifax has participated. There's some disagreement on Glom's side whether the "spirit" has been followed, but consensus is that it's been followed to the letter. What's actually going on is, I think, is some people are used to Glom rolling over and taking it because Glom was so undermanned for so long, and now people (me) are standing up and saying "No, you can't interfere with our quest and work and expect us to beg you to play nice." Or "No, your people cannot try to gank me on Astral and expect us to be okay with it." Let's be real, both treaties have the clause that Maligorn quoted that has absolutely no benefit for Glomdoring. It is, in all actuality, purely for the benefit of the orgs that already had existing relationships that want to play both sides of the fence and to take Glom for a ride. Which is absolutely fine, impressive even that you convinced Glom leadership to accept it, and followed thus far.
What I have discovered is that when encounters do happen, people spam message Glom leadership, and upon talking to Glom leadership, I found out it's a very liberal interpretation of the events. Meaning: you lied.
Now you have to deal with people who aren't okay with being taken for a ride. That's not dictation, I'm still following your rules, but I'm also not playing nice with you. You want to play both sides, you worded the NAP to play both sides. Suddenly Glom has teeth and can play both sides too. You hit me with serens, then I'm going to side with the Gaudis and hit back. If it's not dictation to play both sides when you guys do it, it's not dictation when I do it either.
edit: I will also point out that the very first interaction was Daebach attacking me on Astral for, what I later found out was, his belief that I stole and offered his corpse (I didn't.). I was just freshly returned with no system when he wandered onto my sphere and died to the mobs, and I had his corpse in my inventory assuming someone would come up to get it. Every since then, Celest has been quick to go aggro on me. The first interaction I had with Hallifax was Hallifaxians killing Gloms in Serenwilde and Hallifaxians interfering with our quests. That's literally all it's been. You can say I've been aggressive, abbrasive even, and I'd agree. But you can't honestly blame this on me. Like, what do you honestly expect the reactions to be to those events? Roses have thorns, yo.
edit2: My second interaction with Celest was getting staff casted by Kelly in etherwilde while I was going after Feyr, who had very recently killed godmobs. I know I'm the big bad wolf in all of this or whatever, it's not like my poking and prodding of this treaty has been unprovoked.
To be fair, the benefit to Glom is that Halli/Celest can't raid Glom. Even though Celest/Halli en masse probably wouldn't do that anyway, odds are there would be elements of them that would (much like Mag doesn't raid, but there are certainly people in Mag that raid).
"Literally every pk encounter has been initiated by Celest"
Except for you and Gaudi ganking that Celest Seren Halli astral hunt a few days ago.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Hey, you ain't gotta preach to me. I'm all too aware of what "peeking in and thinking about joining the fight" does.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Also who the hell raids, lol. That's not a real benefit because of how rarely it occurs. In fact, if elements of those orgs raided, gaudy would have been there to help out anyway.
The last group who raided collectively lost at least 10 -15 million essence, if not more. I'm sure it's not gonna happen again for quite a while. Or maybe at 12 AM PST.
Basically what I'm trying to say is that I don't really think that not getting raided is a good enough benefit by itself.
Basically what I'm trying to say is that I don't really think that not getting raided is a good enough benefit by itself.
I would argue that there've been a number of other benefits, and that there was particularly a lot of support during the early parts of the alliance shift where Glomdoring was getting back on its feet, especially in contrast to the friends Glom was leaving (with Mag supposedly planning a war and Gaudi citizens creating eafs), but I am generally not a fan of the idea of tweets turning into a diplomatic debate that should be occurring IC instead of the forum.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I didn't peek in to join any fight. No one had died on deathsight yet other than the random to the lobstrosity. I honestly don't share any pk interaction with shuy/viy/sidd and am 99% unaware of there goings on until they start popping up on deathsight. People die on astral, I try to nab free offerings.
It's fine that the details of the event were blurry in the midst of the gank, but we're after the fact now and there's no excuse. 1) No one in Seren/halli/celest had seen me fighting with Shuyin/Synkarin/Viynain at any point before this fight since I came back and 2) no one is seren/halli/Celest saw me enter the sphere with those three.
People just drew assumptions based on how they perceived me. That's fine, but at some point they need to acknowledge they are wrong and stop blaming me for their reaction.
It's fine that the details of the event were blurry in the midst of the gank, but we're after the fact now and there's no excuse
I would definitely withdraw any claims if somebody from Hallifax or Celest with a log backed this up. Since I wasn't logging, all I have is the blur of the gank, and I admittedly got separated from the group almost immediately during this. I do appreciate @Shuyin not just melting my face off while I was alone on Gemini. Generally speaking, you'll find me quite apologetic if I have been drinking public perception kool-aid and I'm shown it is wrong.
It's fine that the details of the event were blurry in the midst of the gank, but we're after the fact now and there's no excuse
I would definitely withdraw any claims if somebody from Hallifax or Celest with a log backed this up. Since I wasn't logging, all I have is the blur of the gank, and I admittedly got separated from the group almost immediately during this. I do appreciate @Shuyin not just melting my face off while I was alone on Gemini. Generally speaking, you'll find me quite apologetic if I have been drinking public perception kool-aid and I'm shown it is wrong.
You are reacting appropriately IC and I get it! Really no issue there, again my issue is how the Court reacted to it and any ooc claims that I'm at fault for it. It was just wrong time wrong place kind of thing, and I understand why Kierstin reacted and hit me. But I do hit back. :P
I know it's been annoying quite a few people, but I find it quite refreshing that there is a significant amount of uncertainty about the current state of alliances. Far too often I've played in a Lusternia has been about AB&C vs XY&Z. Now we have uncertainty in the communes, and at least in Mag there is a lot of discussion and argument about what exactly we should be doing about it. Plus, I discovered that my Mag character can wander around Hallifax safely and even go shopping there.
To be fair, the benefit to Glom is that Halli/Celest can't raid Glom. Even though Celest/Halli en masse probably wouldn't do that anyway, odds are there would be elements of them that would (much like Mag doesn't raid, but there are certainly people in Mag that raid).
I love taking part in the fights on Faethorn, because I love fighting with Glom and Gaudi, and because I get to fight Seren AND Celest, the majority of the time. However, I always tell @Tarkenton the same thing, "I'll help you kill them, but I don't raid." And as soon as talk starts gonig to killing Argent Ladies (or whatever they're called), I incline and touch key.
I'll say that I (and others) have been waging political warfare since even before Ascension, and Celest is benefiting from that because no one else is really playing ball. When the door opened with the eaf incident, we were aggressive to secure the NAP (while keeping allies happy), and then Marcella made getting their help in Ascension a lay up by promising a Magnagora war with Glomdoring.
But let's not get things twisted. Glomdoring fielded four people in final Ascension, and one of those four was helping the other side. In my humble opinion, we would have won with or without those three people. But I told Ssaliss that if Glomdoring helped with Ascension, then I wouldn't fight with them, I'd fight for them, and that's what Celest has tried to live up to by giving them domoths and villages. It's not about the tangibles; you could care less about those commodities and power coming in to the nexus. I think it's more about having something to fight for, having hope, feeling like you can compete, and, all in all, winning. It's not a coincidence that Glomdoring had an upswing after Ascension. And now Glomdoring has more than those four people and can win aetherbubbles and pound Seren with no one's help. I think Glomdoring is the real winner here, for the little investment that they put in, and to boot they have the freedom to do whatever they want in the time ahead. Politics is pretty exciting right now, even if some days I want nothing to do with it.
And hey, Hallifax was just trying to woo Glomdoring because certain parties were upset about Ascension and wanted a plan B before getting a divorce (go ahead and tell me otherwise). I actually think a 2v2v2 would be fun, again, if not for the fact that Gaudi has that centralization of TAs and PKers and I don't think that there's a current org duo that could compete with Mag+Gaudi. I'm still hoping, though!
@Celina, I have zero OOC sympathy for someone who claims to be the victim after intentionally poking around where people are dying. You were just asking for trouble by peeking, and you really shouldn't feel slighted for that. Also, sorry for staff casting you in EtherSeren. I was an Aqua newbie. It was embarrassing. Let's not mention that again. Please.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I really hope Celina doesn't leave, she's supposed to be making me a badass Shadowdancer! I'm glad I joined during the upswing, and I'm glad that there's such open PK. Sure it's annoying in-character that sometimes Celest will swing more towards Serenwilde in the NAP, but it was at the same time pretty awesome to see Kaimanahi bully Marcella into ethereal Glomdoring so that we could kill her! Now if only I could find someone from Celest to call for help when Seren brings the fight to us...
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
@Celina, I have zero OOC sympathy for someone who claims to be the victim after intentionally poking around where people are dying. You were just asking for trouble by peeking, and you really shouldn't feel slighted for that. Also, sorry for staff casting you in EtherSeren. I was an Aqua newbie. It was embarrassing. Let's not mention that again. Please.
Well it was person, not people, but I never said I felt slighted or remotely played the victim. I even said I enjoyed it! At this point I've repeatedly stated I understand the reaction and people jumping on me, but it simply was a matter of wrong place at the wrong time. I admitted to going there to nab free offerings.
But on the same token people can't play this card against me as some sort of aggro pseudo alliance with Gaudi or how I've been prodding and poking Celest. If anything, if I have yet to openly attack Celest, Celest really shouldn't be attacking me if they are going to be upset about anything, and if excluding this incident, I've been attacked on astral previously and accusing of starting it. This should have been a "oh sh*t, our bad, nevermind," and it wasn't. It was a flood of whiney messages and now glomdrama because no one (and I know at least one of you has spectacles of clairvoyance to tell) went back and actually looked.
And hey, Hallifax was just trying to woo Glomdoring because certain parties were upset about Ascension and wanted a plan B before getting a divorce (go ahead and tell me otherwise). I actually think a 2v2v2 would be fun, again, if not for the fact that Gaudi has that centralization of TAs and PKers and I don't think that there's a current org duo that could compete with Mag+Gaudi. I'm still hoping, though!
If you were in my position, you'd do the same... but no, I pushed for the Glom NAP for the sole reason of "Elanorwen sorta likes Glom even though they don't like her back." Granted, I don't have a vote on the council, but I'm pretty certain that my word still means something in the city and people do take note when I mention my preferences.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
I also echo @Kaimanahi in that it's really, really discouraging and harmful to the game for all you guys to be in one place. You're a tightly knit, extremely effective and deadly force @ gaudy squad. Not sucking up, not blowing sunshine up your asses, it's just a fact. And unfortunately, having fun with PK is at the enemy team's expense for the most part, which means the winners keep winning and the losers...well, qq to find greener pastures in other games.
In all of this fluff, I want to take a moment to address and call shenanigans on this little tidbit. Organizations are built on relationships and coordination, and dubbing any 'harmful to the game' for achieving just that is a bit hypocritical. It almost assumes that the moment you or any organization gets its feet under them, forms a bond, and succeeds, they should look at separating for 'the good of the game'.
No org has control over how the other side reacts, and if the other side decides to QQ because they can't handle losing, that is on them, not the 'winning' side, to manage. Sure, the winning side can and must take steps to limit their actions to keep from crossing the 'griefing' line, but in this context of the Gaudi goon squad, I don't feel that's ever been crossed. Suggesting that it's harmful to the game that the squad stays together makes me think it's more a snipe at the group for being too effective than for any real concerns for the game as a whole.
Celest is the current reigning combative force, certainly greater than Gaudi, and Halli and Seren have their own pockets of coordination as well. I don't think, however, that these same concerns have* been brought up about those little nuggets of efficiency, have they.
It's not hypocritical. People want to feel like they're winning when they play a game, or at the very least that they have some traction and goals to work towards. If you're playing WoW, for example, there are very Alliance servers and very Horde servers, and some are even. You get to pick your difficulty in PK. Lusternia only has 1 server, though.
I didn't say there was an easy or fair solution to this phenomenon, just that it does exist.
EDIT: This is going to turn into the War Seal argument again, so I'm outtie.
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MagMarcella and/or Arcanis.Kelly is just good at priorities.
Except for you and Gaudi ganking that Celest Seren Halli astral hunt a few days ago.
The last group who raided collectively lost at least 10 -15 million essence, if not more. I'm sure it's not gonna happen again for quite a while. Or maybe at 12 AM PST.
Basically what I'm trying to say is that I don't really think that not getting raided is a good enough benefit by itself.
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
And hey, Hallifax was just trying to woo Glomdoring because certain parties were upset about Ascension and wanted a plan B before getting a divorce (go ahead and tell me otherwise). I actually think a 2v2v2 would be fun, again, if not for the fact that Gaudi has that centralization of TAs and PKers and I don't think that there's a current org duo that could compete with Mag+Gaudi. I'm still hoping, though!
The Inner Sea. I take commissions doe.
The Inner Sea. I take commissions doe.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
In all of this fluff, I want to take a moment to address and call shenanigans on this little tidbit. Organizations are built on relationships and coordination, and dubbing any 'harmful to the game' for achieving just that is a bit hypocritical. It almost assumes that the moment you or any organization gets its feet under them, forms a bond, and succeeds, they should look at separating for 'the good of the game'.
I didn't say there was an easy or fair solution to this phenomenon, just that it does exist.
EDIT: This is going to turn into the War Seal argument again, so I'm outtie.