... You can lose the butterfly? One sec, testing again. Will edit with results.
EDIT: Only Illum around who can butterfly right now is busy trying to get past Titan on a pair of lips, and nobody is volunteering their construct butterfly. Testing of this will be put off until tomorrow. Will likely make a new comment for it.
so 8-9 and your 'investment' status are probably similiar to your Halli list (Alary, Feyda and Eritheyl would be in the 'semi-invested', I believe). It's pretty similar I'd say. Definitely nothing too drastically in favor of one side or the other, which is how you initially made it out to be.
My investment stops at pipe runes, which were gifted to me. The rest is just accessory and flair! I exist to blanknote, p5 and damage spam with zero survivability - anyone can do this, so while I would love to take some pampering for my ego...I really shouldn't be included here.
Edit: Feyda is a beast, not anywhere near the same bracket.
Crumkane, Lord of Epicurean Delights says, "WAS IT INDEED ON FIRE, ERITHEYL."
-
With a deep reverb, Contemptible Sutekh says, "CEASE YOUR INFERNAL ENERGY, ERITHEYL."
Frankly I must agree that butterfly in its current state is overpowered. Any ability that has a chance to strike an enemy dead or incapacitate that for 10 mins should have some way to avoid it.
I completely detest 'random chance' abilities like this because they can be so hard to balance around.
"It has a super strong effect yeah but only a CHANCE of happening..stop whining...whiner..sheesh"
Seriously..if any ability even constitutes of having the CHANCE of instantly eliminating a target, then the proper procedures should be placed that can avoid it. No, simply "have a shield up..." is not a proper response. That isnt a way to remove or stop the effect, that is just a way to try and avoid against the POSSIBILITY of being hit with it, which you have no idea when that person decides to shoot it at you. It is the same old Choke debate "just tumble...it isnt OP", No ability should have a way to completely incapacitate someone, mixed with combo or not, with no way for that person to defend. Simply someone deciding when to unleash a massive crippling or death is never a fair maneuver for a proper balanced combat game system.
Here's an idea:
Give butterfly a 2 second delay when it arrives in the room and lands on you BEFORE its effect unleashes, during this time, the person may attempt to stop the effect by:
SWAT BUTTERFLY
If a butterfly lands on you, you may swat it away. It may disappear or may simply choose to flutter back onto you...or someone else.
Good solution that leaves butterfly as is but also giving the target a way to defend against the effect. Done and done.
Butterfly has changed very little since Paradigmatics happened. It's getting some attention now because of forum drama culture, sure, okay - but that in my eyes doesn't scream "We need to fix it". It wasn't needed years before, it's not needed now. Having been hit with the "rip" effect numerous times, I'm -surprised- to see that it has the potential to kill someone dead, but hey. As has been said, getting radded into that room would have an even bigger chance of getting you dead!
When there's a standoff, you stay shielded, or you run the risk of dying in some way. This is so basic it shouldn't need to be harped on. Sometimes in combat, you die for silly reasons. This is just one of a thousand. Let's not dwell on it.
Crumkane, Lord of Epicurean Delights says, "WAS IT INDEED ON FIRE, ERITHEYL."
-
With a deep reverb, Contemptible Sutekh says, "CEASE YOUR INFERNAL ENERGY, ERITHEYL."
Jesus Christ on a hockey stick, if "leave the demesne' is your argument, then "leave line of sight" is the same exact argument applied to butterfly. Only easier.
These are both fallacies as to the effects of abilities and proper dodging skills...not to mention are coming off as rather insulting.
@Synkarin No, by placing a shield PRIOR to the POSSIBILITY of a paradigmatics user shooting a butterfly is -NOT- stopping it. Stopping an ability consists of it being cast and being ABLE to somehow actually stop or remove the effect. In this scenerio, butterfly can infact NOT be stopped.
@Celina Same argument, you are not -Avoiding- butterfly upon cast, as is the case with Demesne unleash. With Unleash you are warned beforehand that someone has begun to unleash their staff and can attempt to shield or exit their meld, with butterfly, one receives no warning. Thus, one cannot simply 'Leave line of sight' as to when butterfly was cast, rather the concept is "Attempt to avoid to be in Line of Sight and not shielded to not be hit with a butterfly which has a chance to kill or maggot you" which frankly is giving far too much control and power to an ability. Again, same old argument with Choke having too much control in a combat situation, and we have all seen how much those debates helped with favoritism vs victimized (seriously how many players did we lose from the game to choke?).
Once again I will state, all abilities that have a chance to completely disable a victim or even kill with 1 command, percentage or not, -SHOULD- have a way to stop the effect. No, shielding beforehand is NOT stopping the effect, it is giving the possibility of not being hit beforehand which as we can all agree is NOT the case that we are continuously shielded. Let us not end up in another Choke debacle that caused enough grief as is, thank you.
edit: And may I just point out that every gaudiguch citizen is now able to carry a butterfly and utilize it (Construct power), meaning it is more common to be seen on the battlefield, rather than being restricted to a single class.
Butterfly has changed very little since Paradigmatics happened. It's getting some attention now because of forum drama culture, sure, okay - but that in my eyes doesn't scream "We need to fix it". It wasn't needed years before, it's not needed now. Having been hit with the "rip" effect numerous times, I'm -surprised- to see that it has the potential to kill someone dead, but hey. As has been said, getting radded into that room would have an even bigger chance of getting you dead!
When there's a standoff, you stay shielded, or you run the risk of dying in some way. This is so basic it shouldn't need to be harped on. Sometimes in combat, you die for silly reasons. This is just one of a thousand. Let's not dwell on it.
Rad has the chance to shoot you into any random room and I believe effects that help to avoid forced movement also come into calculation here. It isnt the same case in this situation.
Yes butterfly is being addressed now, but simply because it is being brought up now and hasnt in the past does not somehow downgrade its dangerous qualities. Frankly we have always known butterfly is a deadly ability if your gamble won, and we can even see from previous posts (and testings) that many people still were unsure as to what and how it even works. I personally have always known that butterfly had too much power to it...since frankly any ability that can maggot a player instantly for 10 mins shouldnt even exist in my opinion, but it seems no one was really using it and thought it a waste of power at the time, so things seemed calm. Nonetheless, this shouldnt detract from the idea that butterfly has no proper remedy (again...being shielded is not a remedy to it, it is simply an attempt to avoid and, again, we cant hope to always be shielded).
Any ability that has the chance to backfire and nuke the caster or benefit the target already has drawbacks to balance it. There are ways to prevent it from hitting you that are pro-active, there's simply nothing reactive.
And let's face it, in the world of "unavoidable death scenarios" it's not exactly top of the list. This is just another example of forum complaints where for a good number of the complaints here, it's only broken when it happens to you, and thus only worth talking about. But yet when broken mechanics and cheese works in your favour, you're content to let it happen without so much as a squeak of objection.
Discussions like this are pointless once the method of "how to avoid this happening to you" has been discussed, because the rest too smothered in bias to be considered constructive.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
I disagree that bashing without sparkle is somehow bashing "below your level". Sparkleberry is definitely not an entry level item - health, mana and bromide potions are entry level. Sparkleberry, healing scrolls with a cube, regen enchants and other additional healing options are just that: additional healing options. If sparkle is an "entry level" item, then an entry level newbie would need to be outfitted with all of those and a healing beast as well, won't they?
Sparkle in COMBAT should definitely be cheap and in abundance, all the time. However, that has nothing to do with the Nature domoth. If you can sparklefoot as a Healing user without seeing a deterioration in your herb curing abilities, good for you. Those without Healing that uses sparklefoot in combat are shooting themselves in the foot (lolol seewhatididthere?), period. Domoth crown on coltsfoot's effect on combat for anyone not a Healer (that is to say, most of the game) is absolutely zilch.
Sparkle is an entry level item. Vials are like newton level. Sparkle requires no skills to use, no investment, no management, nothing like beast healing. It's a core item of the game from conception. It's an absolute fundamental investment once you get past level 80 if you want to engage in any sort of conflict. Not to be successful, not to raid, not to do anything but just participate and have a prayer of surviving long enough to learn something. It is most definitely an entry level item, only made not so by the sudden skyrocketing in costs.
Yes, though you seemed to miss the point. The point was that I was a healer...which you've now reiterated like 5 times back to me.
I've most certainly not reiterated your being a healer five times back at you. Even if you want to count every single separate instance of my saying "Healer/Healing" in my post as a single "iteration", that's still only three.
I'm certainly not opposed to having sparkleberry become cheap and abundant for everyone. However, trying to pin it on the Nature domoth (which doesn't provide cheap nor abundant sparkleberry) not being "maintained" has always been a stupid idea in my opinion. If you want cheap, abundant sparkleberry, petition the admin to make it grow in some environment other than stupid astral. Petition the admin to change the ridiculously idiotic herb system here to one that resembles something like Aetolia's in concept. And yes, we'll see sparkleberry being abundant and cheap and maybe even considered an "entry level" curative.
As it stands, it most definitely is not - it is rare, it is expensive, and it requires more lessons than any other herb to get access to. It's not something anyone would recommend a newbie get, for good reason. "Entry level" is entry level. It is not some magical, arbitrary level above "newton level" but below "Lerad level" or whatever that is. Entry level means something you start out with (roll a character and probe your pack), or at least get access to via your starting lessons.
Nature domoth being upgraded or not has no effect on sparkleberry's importance in combat to most combatants. It most certainly doesn't need to be upgraded "for the good of the game". And no one, domoth holder or not, needs to ever be told, "upgrade it or give it to someone else". A domoth is just that: a conflict mechanic. The winner gets the rewards. The nature domoth is subject to the same strategizing, the same considerations of win possibility or loss possibility, as any other domoth. If people don't want to upgrade any other domoth because they are wary or even afraid of it being stolen, and that is acceptable behavior, then it is just as acceptable for the nature domoth. Which, incidentally, is the only domoth that can always be contested by every single org in the game, because it has no polar opposite.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I agree with Shuyin, butterfly is one of the least worrisome things about an Illuminati. It's meant to be a totally random ability with no strategy to it at all, and not really intended to be used all that seriously in a real fight.
One of the things I didn't like was that it was changed from invariably costing 10p to instead costing power depending on its effects. The people who pushed for that changed completely missed the idea (or knew full well what they were doing) that butterfly was meant to be a gamble. It really isn't one so much now, and it bugged me a lot that they caved on that.
Granted, butterfly is still a joke skill, and I totally get where you guys are coming from that it's not worth a whole great deal. On one hand I can see where Elanorwen is coming from though. In a stand-off with everyone shielded and blocking and a mono is down, nothing else actually really works. If the stand-off is a real one where neither side really can really budge, I don't see what other useful things an Illuminati (or whoever else) can be doing otherwise. So the whole 'if they're butterflying they're not doing anything useful' argument falls flat. I think lots of bias accusations are being thrown around, but I wonder how you'd feel if you knew you were in a complete stand off and are now getting spammed with potentially deadly butterflies you couldn't defend against. I think it's fine there's nothing you can do about it in-room, but I honestly thought you could defend against it LOS and the fact that you can't is a bit broken. Every other skill in the game lets you either defend against it pre-emptively (and not by not being in the LOS, that's not an argument) or run in time to get cover.
But oh well, there's worse things in this game. It doesn't personally worry me much, but I think you guys can really kill arguments sometimes when you're not looking at both sides of it and just putting people down.
As for Lerad's post, I was pretty grumpy last night so withheld from commenting - When Viynain was active every single domoth he held was contested when it could be, but very frequently people passed up on nature. This idea that we didn't do it because 'Viynain's crew would wreck us' is complete make-believe and has no bearing on reality. Viynain's team was good, I'll give you that, but it never really stopped us from trying as much for other domoths, so I don't get your point.
Nature is not like the other domoths in its entire setup. It has no opposing domoth, so it can't be absolved, and its effects are not commune/city specific, but affect the entire game. It's not unreasonable to look at it less competitively than the other domoths. Granted, there is some benefit to the org that holds it as far as power gain goes, but that's as far as it really goes (and coincidentally, this power gain is even less when you kinda don't upgrade, so there's that).
Understandably, people have lives and I don't blame anyone for not being able to upgrade the domoth. I have never used coltsfoot in my entire time playing this game (though I might start soon, given how scarce sparkleberry is). All I'm saying is, after a certain amount of time, you should just try to pass it on to someone less busy or just challenge it and let someone potentially take it. It's nature, it's not a big loss and keeping it on low kind of screws with everyone. As of right now, the sparkleberry situation isn't very good for a number of reasons, and we could probably use the help of people putting the lesser and minor blessing on it to avoid the huge wipeouts we recently had.
As far as healing and sparkleberry not being entry level items...I think that's a strange argument. I don't really follow it at all, I'm sorry to say because it doesn't even hold up. Sparkleberry, healing scroll and health/mana/bromides have, for a looooooong time now, been considered to be very basic healing. A beast might be considered accessory and so too certain abilities...but those three things are what damage of all types are based around right now. The majority of new players will get in the habit of having those three healing items as soon as they can afford it (which isn't very long out of Newton)...This is how it's been in Lusternia for ages and I thought people knew and understood this. What you just described is a parallel game I don't play.
The coltsfoot blessing isn't something you should use in combat, no. But if you're using sparkleberry to hunt and influence then you're using that reserve you'd be using in combat, which adds to the scarcity problem. As a tanky warrior, I get by without using sparkleberry on the things I hunt, but not everyone has that luxury.
Also, Shaddus, try making helpful posts next time.
As well as missing most fights being in a non-US timezone, I also always seem to miss these fun internet arguments.
While butterfly when it works out (maggot/deathfists) might appear to be ridiculous, its main use does seem to be pretty limited to standoff or Hail Mary situations, where really some credit should be given to creative use of the ability and trying something other than the usual rad/beckon staredown. While yes, instantaneous reaction to being on the receiving end is likely "Bull$hit," from experience I know that trying to do anything versus a static fielded aero can evoke the same reaction. If Hallifax had more combat aeros making use of it and forcewall, I'm pretty sure there would be as many expletives thrown our way as we may throw at heko/ecto, monks, or even wiccan sleep strategies being more effective on endurance users than casters (don't even need to be aeoned, rage!)
Also, Shaddus, try making helpful posts next time.
You act as though there's been a helpful post on this thread in the last half-day beyond Altrea's statistics on what butterfly does.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
So, uh... Only tangentially related to the argument, but I took the time to draw up data on butterfly (only 100 tries so far, but I plan to do 1000 in the coming days when I can get paradigmatics users around). Also, if anybody needs lines, I've got them, just prod.
Times: 100
Times target was hit: 88 (further percentages are percentages of this number)
---
Spider (entangle,stun): 6 (6.8%)
Burning Censer Sphere: 1 (1.1%)
Rip (mass damage): 8 (9.1%)
Volcano Sphere: 1 (1.1%)
Dragon Sphere: 1 (1.1%)
Trueheal(+ prismatic): 4 (4.5%)
Quadruple break: 13 (14.7%)
Pit: 9 (10.2%)
Displacement (15s): 11 (12.5%)
Maggot: 8 (9.1%)
Boulder(minor damage): 10 (11.4%)
Disease(Pox, vomiting, worms): 7 (7.9%)
Bumblebee Sphere: 3 (3.4%)
Skull Sphere: 1 (1.1%)
Glacier Sphere: 1 (1.1%)
Dolphin Sphere: 1 (1.1%)
Lion Sphere: 2 (2.3%)
Spider Sphere: 1 (1.1%)
-- TOTAL ASTROLOGY AFFS: 12 (13.6%)
Blowbacks: 12
---
Blackout/trip: 7
Drunken rain: 5
Doubles: 3
---
Twin Crystals sphere: 1
Quadruple Break: 2
Maggot times: 194s, 233s, 17s, (56s), 283s, 297s, 4s, 166s
NOTE: Maggot times in parentheses are from when maggoting occured while magotted, and are from first to second maggot. Maggoting has been confirmed not to be healed by trueheal.
Rip deaths: 5 (62.5%) (as a lvl91 human undeffed. Two of these occured while maggoted)
Unless my understanding of how numbers work is incorrect (Being from Arkansas, it's entirely possible), it's more likely for the effect to turn around and hit the caster than it is for rip, or maggot. Are we really whining about this?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
100 times for such a wide variety of afflictions is a small sample size, needs to be 10x that before you start to have some idea of probability.
Well short of actually having the calculation formula itself.
Also you're looking at that wrong. While the combined % chance to backfire is greater than rip or maggot in that sample size, it's not as likely to backfire as it is for one of either of those afflictions to land.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
... As for Lerad's post, I was pretty grumpy last night so withheld from commenting - When Viynain was active every single domoth he held was contested when it could be, but very frequently people passed up on nature. This idea that we didn't do it because 'Viynain's crew would wreck us' is complete make-believe and has no bearing on reality. Viynain's team was good, I'll give you that, but it never really stopped us from trying as much for other domoths, so I don't get your point.
Nature is not like the other domoths in its entire setup. It has no opposing domoth, so it can't be absolved, and its effects are not commune/city specific, but affect the entire game. It's not unreasonable to look at it less competitively than the other domoths. Granted, there is some benefit to the org that holds it as far as power gain goes, but that's as far as it really goes (and coincidentally, this power gain is even less when you kinda don't upgrade, so there's that). ...
Nature's lack of an opposing domoth also means it can never be locked out of contestation mechanically. Essentially, there will never be a time when an org cannot contest for the domoth when it is in play - you see the lack of absolves and the wider range of its effects as a sign it should be less competitive than other domoths and encouraged to kept at as high a level as possible, but I would like to see that as a sign that it is more competitive than the other domoths, with a larger reward for it.
... As far as healing and sparkleberry not being entry level items...I think that's a strange argument. I don't really follow it at all, I'm sorry to say because it doesn't even hold up. Sparkleberry, healing scroll and health/mana/bromides have, for a looooooong time now, been considered to be very basic healing. A beast might be considered accessory and so too certain abilities...but those three things are what damage of all types are based around right now. The majority of new players will get in the habit of having those three healing items as soon as they can afford it (which isn't very long out of Newton)...This is how it's been in Lusternia for ages and I thought people knew and understood this. What you just described is a parallel game I don't play. ...
Using the healing scroll while bashing more or less requires a personal cube. 10 charges don't last very long for a bashing trip of any kind, whether you're doing Krokani at level 50 or kephera at 80. And you'll be surprised at how few newbies know about, and get, personal cubes. Healing scroll is hardly entry level for that reason. A cube and the recharges are less expensive than sparkles, I would venture, and they aren't exactly something people hand out to newbies. I'm not sure if any guild has sparkleberry as part of their college/novice requirements, or even their Gr1/2 requirements. Sparkleberries are expensive, and unlike mending vials or pennyroyal, are actually not required for basic curing when bashing. I don't consider sparkleberries as entry level by any stretch of the imagination for that reason alone.
Sure, if you want to say I was wrong about putting the regen enchants on the same level as sparkleberry, I'll concede that I exaggerated on that aspect. They certainly are a lot more accessible, and cheaper, than sparkleberries, and while they aren't given out when you roll a character, if you want to consider them a part of a basic bashing curative set, then I'll concede the point. If you also want to object that I put beast healing on the same level as sparkleberry, sure, I concede that I also exaggerated on that point, and that beast healing is far less accessible than sparkleberry, and shouldn't be compared. But I don't expect anyone bashing to be totting around a healing scroll and a cube, nor a store of sparkleberries. And I certainly don't recommend anyone bashing areas with the presumption that they have, and will use, healing scrolls or sparkleberries the same way I expect them to know how to sip health.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I disagree that bashing without sparkle is somehow bashing "below your level". Sparkleberry is definitely not an entry level item - health, mana and bromide potions are entry level. Sparkleberry, healing scrolls with a cube, regen enchants and other additional healing options are just that: additional healing options. If sparkle is an "entry level" item, then an entry level newbie would need to be outfitted with all of those and a healing beast as well, won't they?
Sparkle in COMBAT should definitely be cheap and in abundance, all the time. However, that has nothing to do with the Nature domoth. If you can sparklefoot as a Healing user without seeing a deterioration in your herb curing abilities, good for you. Those without Healing that uses sparklefoot in combat are shooting themselves in the foot (lolol seewhatididthere?), period. Domoth crown on coltsfoot's effect on combat for anyone not a Healer (that is to say, most of the game) is absolutely zilch.
Sparkle is an entry level item. Vials are like newton level. Sparkle requires no skills to use, no investment, no management, nothing like beast healing. It's a core item of the game from conception. It's an absolute fundamental investment once you get past level 80 if you want to engage in any sort of conflict. Not to be successful, not to raid, not to do anything but just participate and have a prayer of surviving long enough to learn something. It is most definitely an entry level item, only made not so by the sudden skyrocketing in costs.
Yes, though you seemed to miss the point. The point was that I was a healer...which you've now reiterated like 5 times back to me.
I've most certainly not reiterated your being a healer five times back at you. Even if you want to count every single separate instance of my saying "Healer/Healing" in my post as a single "iteration", that's still only three.
I'm certainly not opposed to having sparkleberry become cheap and abundant for everyone. However, trying to pin it on the Nature domoth (which doesn't provide cheap nor abundant sparkleberry) not being "maintained" has always been a stupid idea in my opinion. If you want cheap, abundant sparkleberry, petition the admin to make it grow in some environment other than stupid astral. Petition the admin to change the ridiculously idiotic herb system here to one that resembles something like Aetolia's in concept. And yes, we'll see sparkleberry being abundant and cheap and maybe even considered an "entry level" curative.
As it stands, it most definitely is not - it is rare, it is expensive, and it requires more lessons than any other herb to get access to. It's not something anyone would recommend a newbie get, for good reason. "Entry level" is entry level. It is not some magical, arbitrary level above "newton level" but below "Lerad level" or whatever that is. Entry level means something you start out with (roll a character and probe your pack), or at least get access to via your starting lessons.
Nature domoth being upgraded or not has no effect on sparkleberry's importance in combat to most combatants. It most certainly doesn't need to be upgraded "for the good of the game". And no one, domoth holder or not, needs to ever be told, "upgrade it or give it to someone else". A domoth is just that: a conflict mechanic. The winner gets the rewards. The nature domoth is subject to the same strategizing, the same considerations of win possibility or loss possibility, as any other domoth. If people don't want to upgrade any other domoth because they are wary or even afraid of it being stolen, and that is acceptable behavior, then it is just as acceptable for the nature domoth. Which, incidentally, is the only domoth that can always be contested by every single org in the game, because it has no polar opposite.
You saw through my hyperbole. Drat. Pedantry abounds.
If you consider the gear you get in newton "entry level." That's bare minimum to survive an area specifically designed to require nothing but a single vial and nothing else level. Newton is not a reflection of the rest of the game by any stretch of the imagination, what you get and need in newton does not apply the second you are kicked out of it. You seem to be defining things literally rather than what makes sense in application, I'm defining "entry level" as what is ordinarily accessible to compete in the ENTIRE game on a very basic level. Not what is required to survive in niche areas of no long term consequence, that become obselete within literal minutes. If we did, not even vials are entry level. You can survive newton with sleeping and meditating (I did my first time). As you can survive without vials, they aren't entry level if we apply your same logic of just "bashing at your level." It's just entirely pointless to define "entry level" as what it takes to survive in newton, or any other specific and purposefully limited area of the game. The most logical application of entry level is whatever it takes to enter the game at large and participate. Which includes all curatives. All of them. If the cost of pennyroyal spikes up, it doesn't suddenly become "not entry level." It's still an absolute fundamental to participate, the same applies to sparkle.
Healing, as Rivius pointed out, was just a tangent I pointed out that has no bearing on the actual conversation. Hence why I used parenthesis and pointed out my tertiary.
This is getting too pedantic for me to continue. I'm less pedantic and more practical application.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
As for butterfly, I don't really care. We made a mistake when we responded to partisan whining about a veritable non issue. Butterfly has no practical application, other than "why not, we're at a stand off" and is blocked with the same strategies as a myriad of other skills you have to shield against in order to win team fights. It's only overpowered right now because Elanorwen died to it, and whatever Elanorwen dies to inevitably turns into a forums argument. Make it subject to the restriction I envoyed for summon skills, meaning no spamming. Remove maggot because it'll appease the raging masses and then we can move on. It will change nothing about how Gaudiguch approaches team combat (literally nothing).
Stop comparing it to choke. Bringing back stupid old arguments that have not stopped being stupid in the absence of choke. If nothing else, it demonstrates people would much rather just complain to have things removed than learn to counter them, when very real counters exist
I'll say it again, give me room aeon and you guys can have butterfly. We never hear you complaining about that DO WE.
Hey, if you didn't want me to be pedantic, don't bring up "a tangent... that has no bearing on the actual conversation" and then blame me for pointing out it has no bearing on the conversation.
For what IS relevant to the conversation, my position is that it is perfectly possible to play this game at large without using sparkleberry. If "entry level" is, as you say, "what is ordinarily accessible to compete in the ENTIRE game on a very basic level", then I believe our definitions agree in general concept. Bolded is my emphasis, for a point you brought up that I agree heartily with. Let's do away with pedantry and speak of practical application: it's definitely possible to play Lusternia without actually feeling that you are deliberately handicapping yourself, even if you didn't have a single sparkleberry herb. That is my stance on this matter. You won't be competitive, not by a far shot, obviously. The price of sparkleberry reflects its importance and its significance to winning, to coming out on top. And I believe players should not have to feel frustrated or unable to progress in the game if they do not have sparkleberry... and I don't think bashing normally without sparkleberry would create frustration on this level. For all practical purposes of playing this game, sparkleberry is not a neccesity. For the sake of playing this game on a basic level, sparkleberry is not entry level, is my position in this argument.
Healing scrolls get 50 charges. Many shops will sell them with only one charge, making them cheaper, which is a slightly deceitful practice, especially for the younger ones without MagicList.
I think one point people are missing with the nature domoth discussion, which Silvanus has brushed upon, is that it was just 4 orgs when nature was regularly and consistently at crown. It did slow down starting when we hit 6 orgs, before we've gotten to our current position with it.
It was also upgraded less when there was more fighting over it, then more upgrading when it would go ignored, etc.
There are definitely far fewer active herbalists in the game than in the past, and this reflects in part on this condition. So if someone decides to stripharvest now, it has significantly more impact.
100 times for such a wide variety of afflictions is a small sample size, needs to be 10x that before you start to have some idea of probability.
Well short of actually having the calculation formula itself.
Also you're looking at that wrong. While the combined % chance to backfire is greater than rip or maggot in that sample size, it's not as likely to backfire as it is for one of either of those afflictions to land.
As I said in the original numbers post, as soon as I can get some illuminati together, I will be expanding it to a sample size of 1000. I'm aware 100 isn't much of a sample size, but I thought I'd release the data instead of waiting considering all three of the illuminati I was having butterfly me went to bed. Understandably, considering the hours I'm actually logging in to do this and the fact that even that sample size of 100 plus the drawing of power (which I had forgiven through the power minister, so there's that) cost them an hour and a half.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited July 2014
Silvanus is opening a can of worms. I suspect you know full well why glom doesn't bother with your domoths. Xenthos gave you a clue.
Comments
EDIT: Only Illum around who can butterfly right now is busy trying to get past Titan on a pair of lips, and nobody is volunteering their construct butterfly. Testing of this will be put off until tomorrow. Will likely make a new comment for it.
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I completely detest 'random chance' abilities like this because they can be so hard to balance around.
"It has a super strong effect yeah but only a CHANCE of happening..stop whining...whiner..sheesh"
Seriously..if any ability even constitutes of having the CHANCE of instantly eliminating a target, then the proper procedures should be placed that can avoid it. No, simply "have a shield up..." is not a proper response. That isnt a way to remove or stop the effect, that is just a way to try and avoid against the POSSIBILITY of being hit with it, which you have no idea when that person decides to shoot it at you. It is the same old Choke debate "just tumble...it isnt OP", No ability should have a way to completely incapacitate someone, mixed with combo or not, with no way for that person to defend. Simply someone deciding when to unleash a massive crippling or death is never a fair maneuver for a proper balanced combat game system.
Here's an idea:
Give butterfly a 2 second delay when it arrives in the room and lands on you BEFORE its effect unleashes, during this time, the person may attempt to stop the effect by:
SWAT BUTTERFLY
If a butterfly lands on you, you may swat it away. It may disappear or may simply choose to flutter back onto you...or someone else.
Good solution that leaves butterfly as is but also giving the target a way to defend against the effect. Done and done.
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These are both fallacies as to the effects of abilities and proper dodging skills...not to mention are coming off as rather insulting.
@Synkarin No, by placing a shield PRIOR to the POSSIBILITY of a paradigmatics user shooting a butterfly is -NOT- stopping it. Stopping an ability consists of it being cast and being ABLE to somehow actually stop or remove the effect. In this scenerio, butterfly can infact NOT be stopped.
@Celina Same argument, you are not -Avoiding- butterfly upon cast, as is the case with Demesne unleash. With Unleash you are warned beforehand that someone has begun to unleash their staff and can attempt to shield or exit their meld, with butterfly, one receives no warning. Thus, one cannot simply 'Leave line of sight' as to when butterfly was cast, rather the concept is "Attempt to avoid to be in Line of Sight and not shielded to not be hit with a butterfly which has a chance to kill or maggot you" which frankly is giving far too much control and power to an ability. Again, same old argument with Choke having too much control in a combat situation, and we have all seen how much those debates helped with favoritism vs victimized (seriously how many players did we lose from the game to choke?).
Once again I will state, all abilities that have a chance to completely disable a victim or even kill with 1 command, percentage or not, -SHOULD- have a way to stop the effect. No, shielding beforehand is NOT stopping the effect, it is giving the possibility of not being hit beforehand which as we can all agree is NOT the case that we are continuously shielded. Let us not end up in another Choke debacle that caused enough grief as is, thank you.
edit: And may I just point out that every gaudiguch citizen is now able to carry a butterfly and utilize it (Construct power), meaning it is more common to be seen on the battlefield, rather than being restricted to a single class.
Yes butterfly is being addressed now, but simply because it is being brought up now and hasnt in the past does not somehow downgrade its dangerous qualities. Frankly we have always known butterfly is a deadly ability if your gamble won, and we can even see from previous posts (and testings) that many people still were unsure as to what and how it even works. I personally have always known that butterfly had too much power to it...since frankly any ability that can maggot a player instantly for 10 mins shouldnt even exist in my opinion, but it seems no one was really using it and thought it a waste of power at the time, so things seemed calm. Nonetheless, this shouldnt detract from the idea that butterfly has no proper remedy (again...being shielded is not a remedy to it, it is simply an attempt to avoid and, again, we cant hope to always be shielded).
And let's face it, in the world of "unavoidable death scenarios" it's not exactly top of the list. This is just another example of forum complaints where for a good number of the complaints here, it's only broken when it happens to you, and thus only worth talking about. But yet when broken mechanics and cheese works in your favour, you're content to let it happen without so much as a squeak of objection.
Discussions like this are pointless once the method of "how to avoid this happening to you" has been discussed, because the rest too smothered in bias to be considered constructive.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
I'm certainly not opposed to having sparkleberry become cheap and abundant for everyone. However, trying to pin it on the Nature domoth (which doesn't provide cheap nor abundant sparkleberry) not being "maintained" has always been a stupid idea in my opinion. If you want cheap, abundant sparkleberry, petition the admin to make it grow in some environment other than stupid astral. Petition the admin to change the ridiculously idiotic herb system here to one that resembles something like Aetolia's in concept. And yes, we'll see sparkleberry being abundant and cheap and maybe even considered an "entry level" curative.
As it stands, it most definitely is not - it is rare, it is expensive, and it requires more lessons than any other herb to get access to. It's not something anyone would recommend a newbie get, for good reason. "Entry level" is entry level. It is not some magical, arbitrary level above "newton level" but below "Lerad level" or whatever that is. Entry level means something you start out with (roll a character and probe your pack), or at least get access to via your starting lessons.
Nature domoth being upgraded or not has no effect on sparkleberry's importance in combat to most combatants. It most certainly doesn't need to be upgraded "for the good of the game". And no one, domoth holder or not, needs to ever be told, "upgrade it or give it to someone else". A domoth is just that: a conflict mechanic. The winner gets the rewards. The nature domoth is subject to the same strategizing, the same considerations of win possibility or loss possibility, as any other domoth. If people don't want to upgrade any other domoth because they are wary or even afraid of it being stolen, and that is acceptable behavior, then it is just as acceptable for the nature domoth. Which, incidentally, is the only domoth that can always be contested by every single org in the game, because it has no polar opposite.
While butterfly when it works out (maggot/deathfists) might appear to be ridiculous, its main use does seem to be pretty limited to standoff or Hail Mary situations, where really some credit should be given to creative use of the ability and trying something other than the usual rad/beckon staredown. While yes, instantaneous reaction to being on the receiving end is likely "Bull$hit," from experience I know that trying to do anything versus a static fielded aero can evoke the same reaction. If Hallifax had more combat aeros making use of it and forcewall, I'm pretty sure there would be as many expletives thrown our way as we may throw at heko/ecto, monks, or even wiccan sleep strategies being more effective on endurance users than casters (don't even need to be aeoned, rage!)
Unless my understanding of how numbers work is incorrect (Being from Arkansas, it's entirely possible), it's more likely for the effect to turn around and hit the caster than it is for rip, or maggot. Are we really whining about this?
Well short of actually having the calculation formula itself.
Also you're looking at that wrong. While the combined % chance to backfire is greater than rip or maggot in that sample size, it's not as likely to backfire as it is for one of either of those afflictions to land.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Using the healing scroll while bashing more or less requires a personal cube. 10 charges don't last very long for a bashing trip of any kind, whether you're doing Krokani at level 50 or kephera at 80. And you'll be surprised at how few newbies know about, and get, personal cubes. Healing scroll is hardly entry level for that reason. A cube and the recharges are less expensive than sparkles, I would venture, and they aren't exactly something people hand out to newbies. I'm not sure if any guild has sparkleberry as part of their college/novice requirements, or even their Gr1/2 requirements. Sparkleberries are expensive, and unlike mending vials or pennyroyal, are actually not required for basic curing when bashing. I don't consider sparkleberries as entry level by any stretch of the imagination for that reason alone.
Sure, if you want to say I was wrong about putting the regen enchants on the same level as sparkleberry, I'll concede that I exaggerated on that aspect. They certainly are a lot more accessible, and cheaper, than sparkleberries, and while they aren't given out when you roll a character, if you want to consider them a part of a basic bashing curative set, then I'll concede the point. If you also want to object that I put beast healing on the same level as sparkleberry, sure, I concede that I also exaggerated on that point, and that beast healing is far less accessible than sparkleberry, and shouldn't be compared. But I don't expect anyone bashing to be totting around a healing scroll and a cube, nor a store of sparkleberries. And I certainly don't recommend anyone bashing areas with the presumption that they have, and will use, healing scrolls or sparkleberries the same way I expect them to know how to sip health.
For what IS relevant to the conversation, my position is that it is perfectly possible to play this game at large without using sparkleberry. If "entry level" is, as you say, "what is ordinarily accessible to compete in the ENTIRE game on a very basic level", then I believe our definitions agree in general concept. Bolded is my emphasis, for a point you brought up that I agree heartily with. Let's do away with pedantry and speak of practical application: it's definitely possible to play Lusternia without actually feeling that you are deliberately handicapping yourself, even if you didn't have a single sparkleberry herb. That is my stance on this matter. You won't be competitive, not by a far shot, obviously. The price of sparkleberry reflects its importance and its significance to winning, to coming out on top. And I believe players should not have to feel frustrated or unable to progress in the game if they do not have sparkleberry... and I don't think bashing normally without sparkleberry would create frustration on this level. For all practical purposes of playing this game, sparkleberry is not a neccesity. For the sake of playing this game on a basic level, sparkleberry is not entry level, is my position in this argument.
Not a single Glomdoringer has responded. One Glomdoringer even told me I should be upgrading it.
Why would I upgrade a Domoth that makes it 3 orgs versus 2 orgs?
(Plus it's 4th of July Weekend, it's called work, party, fireworks).
/me ponders.
Clearly we should just give it to Celest.
As I said in the original numbers post, as soon as I can get some illuminati together, I will be expanding it to a sample size of 1000. I'm aware 100 isn't much of a sample size, but I thought I'd release the data instead of waiting considering all three of the illuminati I was having butterfly me went to bed. Understandably, considering the hours I'm actually logging in to do this and the fact that even that sample size of 100 plus the drawing of power (which I had forgiven through the power minister, so there's that) cost them an hour and a half.
http://www.slothhugs.com/butterflylines.txt