Tweets VII: Tweet Child of Mine

Everiine

I'm not logged in (about to head to lunch) but can someone go through the envoy reports and count how many totem reports there are? I truly have no idea if it's a big number or small number.

Niradnic

That exact thing has been requested and denied. 

Lerad

I have every intention of making an envoy report about it, yes. I have been drafting one for the past few days.

But which part of this sentence do you not understand?:

despite the fact that we've signaled repeatedly we're willing to sacrifice realism, we're willing to sacrifice flavour that separates communes and cities, and the mechanical power advantage. Because Estarra doesn't want to sacrifice the realism and the flavour that separates communes and cities, we're stuck with having to deal with this.

This won't be the first report I've used for this purpose. This isn't the first email I sent Estarra and Support about this. This isn't the first time we've been asking to change the mechanic.

Aramel

I replant for RP reasons, but at this point I'm okay with not replanting, or replanting very gradually (basically, when a newbie does their collegium quest and it drops a nut we can go 'oh hey, where do we stick this'.) I'd still rather see the flavour and power generation separated though.

Meanwhile, there's always ironbark.

Yarith

Does every location in the forest require a sacred tree for your canon of RP? That doesn't sound sacred if they're everywhere and the forest, with or without the literal objects in the room, is still filled with gloomy trees. I shouldn't contest RP canon though.

Why not just ask for something [instead of|in addition to] totems/trees? There are multiple ways of getting around the 'problem' with the vision.

Lerad

I'm fine with anyone's suggestion for changes, for any kind of change. At this point, every voice that adds to the chorus to ask Estarra to change her mind and actually tackle the problematic part of the mechanic, is one I welcome. Defending the mechanic as it exists because "power" is something that just sets me off the deep end.

Yarith

I wasn't trying to defend the mechanic, I was outlining that there's no reason (other than some RP commitment which states you require literal 'tree' objects in a room to make it a forest as opposed to having them described in the room) to grow them everywhere and maintain them all if they're just for protection. As long as they continue to provide x power I think they're fair game to cut down s'all.

Everiine

Yarith, every time you say, "Why don't you just..." you don't recognize that envoys and players have tried, for years, every possible solution they can think of, and are still trying.

Yarith

I've said that once and if you'd like to show me the list of reports addressing it I'm sure I can also try and come up with a solution we can pitch, envoy or not. 

Karlach

Everiine said:

Yarith, every time you say, "Why don't you just..." you don't recognize that envoys and players have tried, for years, every possible solution they can think of, and are still trying.

This. Actually come up with suggestions for changes rather than going "Why dont you just get them to change how it works" because we've done various ideas through the years and they all got nope'd.

Yarith

Sure thing. What's the list of reports already addressing the problem?

Karlach

1374 was the last one, you can start there.

Niradnic

REPORT LIST TOTEMS, for starters. Behold, you have the power to read past reports.

There's also a lot of conversations that go on over envoys that don't manifest into reports, because a "no," is a "no."

Honey, if old players are telling you they've tried, it means they've tried. Stop being a dick about it. 

Yarith

It looks like the latest one says 'We're running with the new discretionary powers, etc. for now, but will revisit this report if necessary.' in the ruling. 
We could try making a report and saying it's necessary.

Aeldra

I'll gladly support a report trying to change this messy tree mechanic. And if it means a little less power income, I think the amount of happiness gained from people not having to deal with this stupid mechanic ( and the people who just cut down trees for fun and the people who think they need to retaliate by instead of taking it out on the ones responsible, hit one of the communes ) is worth it.

Yarith

It seems that old players like you, Niradnic, are a little too old to be berating me on the envoy system's mechanics. The 'REPORT LIST TOTEMS' syntax brings up a list of reports for the totems skillset, of which there are 4 reports with not a single one referencing totem carving. 

Reports are how we get definitive answers on things. It's how, and I hope, the system works.

Karlach

Niradnic said:

REPORT LIST TOTEMS, for starters. Behold, you have the power to read past reports.

There's also a lot of conversations that go on over envoys that don't manifest into reports, because a "no," is a "no."

Honey, if old players are telling you they've tried, it means they've tried. Stop being a dick about it. 

Report list totems does a list of the skills from the totem set, some of the reports for commune trees are under "none" if they didn't get custom names. 

Otherwise I agree, but I thought I'd point this out.

Niradnic

Okay. REPORT LIST. Go forth and be literate. 

Yarith

I'm not seeing many reports addressing the totems mechanic. 

Niradnic

There might not be! As has been said, conversations exist outside of the envoy reports themselves. If envoys can't get traction with the admin, they may not make a report at all. If it's a big change, envoys will often ask the powers that be before burning a report on the impossible. It's why the envoy channels exist, to have an open line of communication between the players that suggest change and the admin that enact it. The point was 1) the reports are public domain. If you want to know what's in them, you can look them up. 2) If the envoys are saying they've tried, there's no reason to assume they are being dishonest. 

I can tell you from personal experience, this specific thing has been discussed multiple times.

Yarith

Alrighty then. Given the most recent report on the topic says that they're willing to revisit that report if necessary, my suggestion is that we say it's necessary.

Xenthos

One thing you are blatantly ignoring here: A crow/stag user can only bond to a carved totem.  Many skills in both sets rely on having a bonded totem (crow especially, you need a nest for some skills and carrion for others, cannot have a nest without a bonded totem and no carrion without a nest).

If you do not ever grow new elders, you are basically telling people they cannot use their skills.  This is one of the reasons we do upkeep, so there are things to bond (we have a project with totems to bond at borders, etc).

If you go, "Well, you have to grow your own tree" that is RL days of not being able to use things you already spent lessons on... plus any extra time from the guy who came in and chopped your saplings down.

These trees are not just power sources, they are a required component for two skillsets in this game.

Yarith

So you need >80 trees for all your Crow|Stag novices coming in?

Xenthos

You need unbonded trees.  Does it matter how many / few there are?  It is not like jerkface mctreechopper is going to say, "Well, 40 rooms do not have trees, so I won't bother chopping this elder I just ran into".  If he is running around looking for trees to chop he is already there to do so. :P

Everiine

In your almighty wisdom, then, what is the perfect number for each commune to keep so that they have enough elder trees for their current stag/crow users to use, while also leaving some available for new novices to come in? I'd like to see how you came to your conclusion, too.

Yarith

So you could try, I don't know, maintaining a few more than the trees your x crow|stag can protect?

As the growing trees is a heavy RP obligation, I'm not sure why growing your own totem to bond isn't one too.

You can't be upset when you're making yourself work. If you kept a conservative amount of elders/totems and someone cut it down I'd understand your frustration but it seems pretty unwarranted given the situation at hand.

EDIT:
Also you can use ironbark. Some guy can't just come and cut it down.

Xenthos

Because people don't come chopping down saplings when they are being grown, right?

Yarith

You're right. You're entirely right. How could I be so blind?
Totems must be completely kept off limits, we must never cut them down and let the forests generate all the passive power so that the crow and stag users have 100 trees to choose from when they transcend their skillsets so they can be useful.

Crek

Yarith said:

So you could try, I don't know, maintaining a few more than the trees your x crow|stag can protect?

As the growing trees is a heavy RP obligation, I'm not sure why growing your own totem to bond isn't one too.

You can't be upset when you're making yourself work. If you kept a conservative amount of elders/totems and someone cut it down I'd understand your frustration but it seems pretty unwarranted given the situation at hand.

EDIT:
Also you can use ironbark. Some guy can't just come and cut it down.

Ironbark is not a valid defense mechanism. Costs power AND negates their power generation.

Yarith

How much does ironbark cost\how long does it last and how much does a totem generate? :S