I'm more curious why the gods never zap troublemakers during events. I mean, if you've got the goloth rampaging about, breaking time, how hard could it be to spare two seconds to zap and kill him? After all, mortals manage to kill him just fine. :-\"
The gods know their continued existence is only by the whims of Estaara. If they don't keep things entertaining for the Creatrix she will wipe this universe clean and make a new one (with blackjack and hookers).
So... a world with Gaudiguch only?
Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.
I guess my head canon is a lot different than other people's. I've always felt that being made via the Song of Creation, the Elders always had one purpose: to create. They couldn't "destroy", really, they couldn't remove things from the tapestry of life. That's why they feared the Soulless so much, and why the Fourth Circle especially feared the Soulless, because anything the Soulless ate was gone forever, aka annihilated. The equivalent of suicide. The elder gods can only create and mould things into their own image, after their own place in the Tapestry as set forth by Dynara.
It's a major plot point in Cosmogensis and the History of the Elder Wars that Conservation of Mass and Energy (only) started being a thing after Dynara and Magnora left Creation. Without Dynara, true creation is not possible; without Magnora, no true destruction. The Soulless get around this by consuming that which they wish to "destroy" and adding it to their own mass. The Elders get around it by creating using small fragments of their self.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I think what you're missing is that mortals are "shards". Any individual mortal can be killed / destroyed, and it doesn't impact the overall "mass" of power of the race (which is the actual thing that can't be destroyed). Remember that the Soulless were not able to absorb any of the essence of the mortals that they consumed, unless they got all of it. The actual Divine shard / essence is not actually destroyed, it is simply "freed" back to the overall racial gestalt.
That doesn't make the individual any less dead, though.
I'm not saying the gods can't kill mortals, I'm saying they can't destroy them entirely and prevent them from being reborn.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I'm not saying the gods can't kill mortals, I'm saying they can't destroy them entirely and prevent them from being reborn.
They can, though. It's a plot point in the Book of iirc Meridian that the Soulless get a massive power increase when they consume the last member of a mortal race, as then they can fully incorporate the entire racial soul into their essence, expanding their own existence and permanently preventing any member of that race from being reborn. This is also why (for example) it is so very important that there exist a tiny number of disembodied Sileni souls in the Spiritsinger's sacred glade. As long as the Soulless never get to those, the Sileni race is not completely gone and the Soulless can't harness all that power, just sit on its undigested spiritual mass. The Elders (particularly the Traitors, but also ones like Shikari who are not tainted but are very bloodthirsty) could do the exact same thing, if they ever felt the inclination. This is incidentally the religious justification for cannibalism in Magnagora. Its not just evil for evil's sake, or decadent murdering, it's about making sure the essence of your enemy never escapes and never returns to get revenge.
I'm not saying the gods can't kill mortals, I'm saying they can't destroy them entirely and prevent them from being reborn.
They can prevent the mortal, individually, from being reborn.
They cannot prevent some of the Divine essence that manifested in a shard from remanifesting somewhere else (in which there is some room for "past lives").
My contention is that there is a difference between the sharded energy of the God, and the individual's existence on "top of" that essence. They are not 100% mutual, or Atropos would not be able to sever the threads either. Atropos is not destroying the essence of the God in the mortal, Atropos is severing the mortal's life (no more rebirth) and the essence is subsumed back into the racial gestalt.
I'm not saying the gods can't kill mortals, I'm saying they can't destroy them entirely and prevent them from being reborn.
They can prevent the mortal, individually, from being reborn.
They cannot prevent some of the Divine essence that manifested in a shard from remanifesting somewhere else (in which there is some room for "past lives").
My contention is that there is a difference between the sharded energy of the God, and the individual's existence on "top of" that essence. They are not 100% mutual, or Atropos would not be able to sever the threads either. Atropos is not destroying the essence of the God in the mortal, Atropos is severing the mortal's life (no more rebirth) and the essence is subsumed back into the racial gestalt.
This perspective is contradicted by Ayalala reincarnating as Pollipolli in the Book of Xyl. In particular, shard souls are discrete units which cannot be recombined. The role of Atropos is not to prevent rebirth, but rather to sheer away the memories and experiences of the current incarnation in preparation for the next incarnation. The Elder Gods have no particular influence in whether Atropos chooses to do this at the end of each death.
Exactly. There's a difference between the Soulless being able to do this, and elders. I'm not sure saying that "elders could do it, they just don't feel inclined" really has any merit, no offense. There's no IC proof, in history or ingame, that an Elder-Souled god can remove a shard from existance, IE keep it from being reborn.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I'm not saying the gods can't kill mortals, I'm saying they can't destroy them entirely and prevent them from being reborn.
They can prevent the mortal, individually, from being reborn.
They cannot prevent some of the Divine essence that manifested in a shard from remanifesting somewhere else (in which there is some room for "past lives").
My contention is that there is a difference between the sharded energy of the God, and the individual's existence on "top of" that essence. They are not 100% mutual, or Atropos would not be able to sever the threads either. Atropos is not destroying the essence of the God in the mortal, Atropos is severing the mortal's life (no more rebirth) and the essence is subsumed back into the racial gestalt.
This perspective is contradicted by Ayalala reincarnating as Pollipolli in the Book of Xyl. In particular, shard souls are discrete units which cannot be recombined. The role of Atropos is not to prevent rebirth, but rather to sheer away the memories and experiences of the current incarnation in preparation for the next incarnation. The Elder Gods have no particular influence in whether Atropos chooses to do this at the end of each death.
There is a more recent example of potential "reincarnation" (where there was a child who was thought to be Ellindel reborn, which was later sacrificed for Maylea's return).
As I said, Atropos cannot destroy the essence. I suppose what we're arguing about is semantics at this point. If Atropos destroys everything that makes the individual an individual, I would say that that person is dead. In this case, I consider the soul to be separate from the individual, in Lusternia's environs. Similarly, in that same book it says that a soul can split in two. Are both of those individuals resulting the exact same? If so, then every member of every race is exactly the same (which, if you subscribe to the Shaddus Theory, I suppose you could argue for).
When the body housing the shard dies, it goes back to the overall pool for "reuse," but the new thing born is not the same. It is a completely different person. I don't see how there's any way to get around that, or every time a soul shards into two we'd have exact duplicates of that person.
(Note that I understand when the Gods first splintered, this is what happened-- they were all speaking in unison. Obviously, though, this is no longer the case and all the shards are now actually individual from one another-- and that individual expression can indeed be destroyed)
We should just do the whole Frienemies thing again. Hallifax/Gaudiguch vs Serenwilde/Glomdoring vs Celest/Hallifax. The drama, the hilarity, the reactions. #introducealittlechaos.
No but seriously, any alliance or ceasefire will end the same, with one side betraying the other after years of arguements. Has there actually been a smooth partnership between two orgs?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
So many wrong conclusions being brought up from the lore....but at this point, im rather tuckered out trying to explain myself.
I'll simply say that the fates are not gods, they are something else, something more. They could be considered the spirit of creation, for while creation exists, they exist. They came into being when Estarra begot her first creation. You could consider them on a class above the Elder Gods.
While -ESTARRA- can completely annihilate timelines and people, that doesnt mean the gods can. I am not sure why certain people are trying to use this example over and over to try and emphasis the power of a God. Estarra is above Gods, she is the Creatrix. Elder Gods cannot be compared to her.
Extra: As to my 'More Domoths' concept, if you had actually taken the time out (from the very first second you stood there watching it, simply to immediately reject it) to actually read what my play and book was about, you would have found it actually made sense. Why did suddenly 9 realms come into existence because 9 Gods sacrificed themselves? Coincidence? That 9 realms were always around, and these 9 gods came to represent them? Hardly. The domoth realms and energy was always around, as referenced in the elder books (thus predating vernal). The 9 Vernal could simply have opened the way to aspects of the Domoth that represent themselves. Also, you have this hilarious concept Xenthos of completing ignoring the point that was brought up time and time and time again that: It is a Theorum. You would insist while foaming at the mouth from your hatreds that I am trying to spread the teachings that there are more than 9 domoths and seals and I am ruining the minds of the Youths. It frankly is no shock to me how Glom continues to stay in the state it is in with closed-minded control-hungry people like you constantly squatting in it and offering little to nothing.
I'll simply like to add: Get over it.
Anyway this derail went all the way to another station at this point. Has gotten pretty lackluster. Enjoy
I know a good way to settle this debate. An Elder God just needs to prove they can annihilate a character, and I can see a volunteer who's been jumping up and down waving his arms.
We should just do the whole Frienemies thing again. Hallifax/Gaudiguch vs Serenwilde/Glomdoring vs Celest/Hallifax. The drama, the hilarity, the reactions. #introducealittlechaos.
No but seriously, any alliance or ceasefire will end the same, with one side betraying the other after years of arguements. Has there actually been a smooth partnership between two orgs?
Nope. Not even during the days of Celenwilde. Eventually, people will say the other org is free-loading. This leads to angry feelings, and eventually raiding.
I'm going to disagree with you here. Celest and Serenwilde have been wrapped up with each other for a long while, even going out of their way to tell Hallifax during a meeting that allying with one is like allying with the other, but allying with Glomdoring means allying with neither.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Not only that, but they tend to pass certain people back and forth freely: Raeri and Ryboi come to mind, and a longer while back, Veyrzhul. For a long while, they've been wrapped up with each other.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
TIL Arcanis can't (or chooses not to) read the full context of a discussion.
Hallifax is apparently opting to ditch Celenwilde to keep Glomdoring, who wants to go with Magnagora, who is with Gaudiguch. The only caveat is, apparently, Magnadoring keeps out of Halli-Gaudi business. Yet another year of 4v2 and all the complications it poses!
There are basically love affairs between Celest-Serenwilde, Glomdoring-Hallifax, and Magnagora-Gaudiguch, which means a stable 3v3 won't be coming anytime soon.
1v1v1v1v1v1 plz. Never gonna happen but how fun and chaotic would that be? Least 2v2v2. Someone mentioned in... tweets I think recently that it sucks it's more about winning at any cost (including one's own enjoyment/fulfillment) than the challenge and fun of trying, even if to fail. I wholeheartedly agree with that.
At this point, the nexii are in no dire threat of fizzling out, everyone has comms coming out of their nose, black market supplies whatever you may need, what's to lose? Speed at which Ascendants are produced? If you apply yourself to regular power creation methods you could sustain guards easily. Supernals, Avatars, etc, can only die so often and don't take that huge a defending force to mess up with discretionaries/shrines, etc.
An org could take pride in standing on their own, bowing to no one, relying on no one, their RP uncompromised in any fashion. Back in the day I always admired Glomdoring for not caring one bit to have buddies, even when it meant they were frail, alone, village-less. It was admirable and commanded crazy respect. I similarly admired Hallifax standing strong by their RP and not desiring to jump into bed with people openly. That is in no way a condemnation of what these or other orgs are doing now, mind you. Everyone does what they can to survive, it's a shifting landscape.
Gods have tried before to convince orgs that they don't need allies. There was the thing during the Equinox alliance where Lord Hoaracle banned His order members from aiding Magnagora, saying we could stand alone. It was straight out of the histories - of course Hoaracle would not stand for helping a city linked to many of the Traitors he exiled. But, it did pose a lot of difficulties, where Mag would come help us, and get annoyed when people didn't reciprocate. IIRC some people quit the order just so they could defend Nil.
Comments
That doesn't make the individual any less dead, though.
They cannot prevent some of the Divine essence that manifested in a shard from remanifesting somewhere else (in which there is some room for "past lives").
My contention is that there is a difference between the sharded energy of the God, and the individual's existence on "top of" that essence. They are not 100% mutual, or Atropos would not be able to sever the threads either. Atropos is not destroying the essence of the God in the mortal, Atropos is severing the mortal's life (no more rebirth) and the essence is subsumed back into the racial gestalt.
There are things in the angles of time that hate the progeny of the curves of time #HoundsofTindalos #FrankBelknapLong
As I said, Atropos cannot destroy the essence. I suppose what we're arguing about is semantics at this point. If Atropos destroys everything that makes the individual an individual, I would say that that person is dead. In this case, I consider the soul to be separate from the individual, in Lusternia's environs. Similarly, in that same book it says that a soul can split in two. Are both of those individuals resulting the exact same? If so, then every member of every race is exactly the same (which, if you subscribe to the Shaddus Theory, I suppose you could argue for).
When the body housing the shard dies, it goes back to the overall pool for "reuse," but the new thing born is not the same. It is a completely different person. I don't see how there's any way to get around that, or every time a soul shards into two we'd have exact duplicates of that person.
(Note that I understand when the Gods first splintered, this is what happened-- they were all speaking in unison. Obviously, though, this is no longer the case and all the shards are now actually individual from one another-- and that individual expression can indeed be destroyed)
I'll simply say that the fates are not gods, they are something else, something more. They could be considered the spirit of creation, for while creation exists, they exist. They came into being when Estarra begot her first creation. You could consider them on a class above the Elder Gods.
While -ESTARRA- can completely annihilate timelines and people, that doesnt mean the gods can. I am not sure why certain people are trying to use this example over and over to try and emphasis the power of a God. Estarra is above Gods, she is the Creatrix. Elder Gods cannot be compared to her.
Extra: As to my 'More Domoths' concept, if you had actually taken the time out (from the very first second you stood there watching it, simply to immediately reject it) to actually read what my play and book was about, you would have found it actually made sense. Why did suddenly 9 realms come into existence because 9 Gods sacrificed themselves? Coincidence? That 9 realms were always around, and these 9 gods came to represent them? Hardly. The domoth realms and energy was always around, as referenced in the elder books (thus predating vernal). The 9 Vernal could simply have opened the way to aspects of the Domoth that represent themselves. Also, you have this hilarious concept Xenthos of completing ignoring the point that was brought up time and time and time again that: It is a Theorum. You would insist while foaming at the mouth from your hatreds that I am trying to spread the teachings that there are more than 9 domoths and seals and I am ruining the minds of the Youths. It frankly is no shock to me how Glom continues to stay in the state it is in with closed-minded control-hungry people like you constantly squatting in it and offering little to nothing.
I'll simply like to add: Get over it.
Anyway this derail went all the way to another station at this point. Has gotten pretty lackluster. Enjoy
I'd love it, but, not gonna happen.