I really don't want to get into the complexities and uses of essence other than to make the point that Elder Gods aren't dependent upon it as that was an incorrect notion that was put forth earlier.
Also, things like favours, shrines, godrealms, etc. exist more or less for the mortal followers. If, for example, Talan offers a boatload to Crumkane, Crumkane would reciprocate by giving her favours, making a godrealm for her to play in, and allowing her to use shrines using his power. If Talan didn't offer essence, then it's still fine with Crumkane -- he also doesn't have to spend on things like favours, shrines, and godrealms.
Personally, I think the idea of making Elder Gods an existence that can be challenged and pulled down by mortals a ridiculously boring one. Elder Divine should be entities of such absolute strength and power that standing against them becomes a powerful symbol and statement of loyalty, idealism and defiance, all the more so when you do it for your own Divine.
If they become just your average Cthoglogg, then why would I bother prostrating myself before any one of them? Oh, an Elder returns from the Void? Right. Okay. Who cares? Lisaera and Viravain going at it in the skies? Again? For the how manyth time this week? Well, okay, whatever, just do it when I'm not asleep, or I'll gather a bunch of irritated people to go kick their asses.
It would really suck a lot if Estarra's (or rather, Dynara's) greatest creations turned out to be just a bunch of old, outdated hippies that liked thunder bolts or silver beams of light.
The absoluteness of an Elder Divine is precisely that which drives and motivates mortals to reach for Ascendancy - a ridiculously miniscule existence compared to the Elder Divine, but still with a taste of the power that can never be achieved. To reduce the model upon which Ascendancy (or Demi-godhood) imitates that would be to cheapen the experience. If I wanted to play a character that could challenge the heavens, I'll connect to godwars2.org on port 3000 instead. (Pretty good game, by the way) I'd like to keep my Lusternian Divine to be actually powerful enough to command my service, please, thanks.
I have literally and exactly the opposite reaction. I find it extremely boring to be a passive spectator in roleplaying stories where my character has no impact by definition. If there is no struggle I can be involved in and make a difference, why bother trying? The gods will sort it out, they are competent and vastly more powerful - to the point where my adoration is nothing but a vanity trip. Does that mean that all of the times they ask mortals for help, they're just being patronizing? The same way you might have your toddler old 'help' cook dinner, a cat might 'help' make the bed, or the way that a fly 'helps'... oops ran out of analogy. It just doesn't make much sense in the context of Lusternian history to say that the Elders have such infinite might, both IC and from a gaming perspective.
Personally, I think the idea of making Elder Gods an existence that can be challenged and pulled down by mortals a ridiculously boring one. Elder Divine should be entities of such absolute strength and power that standing against them becomes a powerful symbol and statement of loyalty, idealism and defiance, all the more so when you do it for your own Divine.
If they become just your average Cthoglogg, then why would I bother prostrating myself before any one of them? Oh, an Elder returns from the Void? Right. Okay. Who cares? Lisaera and Viravain going at it in the skies? Again? For the how manyth time this week? Well, okay, whatever, just do it when I'm not asleep, or I'll gather a bunch of irritated people to go kick their asses.
It would really suck a lot if Estarra's (or rather, Dynara's) greatest creations turned out to be just a bunch of old, outdated hippies that liked thunder bolts or silver beams of light.
The absoluteness of an Elder Divine is precisely that which drives and motivates mortals to reach for Ascendancy - a ridiculously miniscule existence compared to the Elder Divine, but still with a taste of the power that can never be achieved. To reduce the model upon which Ascendancy (or Demi-godhood) imitates that would be to cheapen the experience. If I wanted to play a character that could challenge the heavens, I'll connect to godwars2.org on port 3000 instead. (Pretty good game, by the way) I'd like to keep my Lusternian Divine to be actually powerful enough to command my service, please, thanks.
Ah you see this is what I find to be an incorrect perspective of what Gods in lusternia are. Many seem to relate them to the idea of the concept of a 'God' from IRL or from other IRE realms, in which they were the avatars of realms of reality, or superior beings that created the mortal races. They are, in fact, simply much bigger brothers and sisters to the mortal races.
You stated Elder Gods should be powerful enough to command my service. Ask yourself this, why should you follow to begin with? Why do you feel you need to make a character that would follow the will of an entity that had next to nothing to do with his creation, his life, and his fate? Looked at from another perspective, the Elder gods could simply be seen as dominating entities that seek to get their way by willful command (lore-wise).
Additionally, it isnt only about 'bringing a god down' which I would find to be near impossible as is, it is about them actually being characters rather than admins.
Although im beginning to think we may have derailed this thread (though admittedly the original subject was just drama llama) quite a bit as is, should the discussion go on or shall we call it quits?
If you don't want to worship a god, then don't. But then don't complain about not getting things like TF's or shrine powers.
No one said the Gods were 'infinitely more powerful' than mortals, just extremely so. As Xenthos put it, demigods to mortals were akin boulders to pebbles, ascendants to demigods were as mountains to boulders and elder gods to ascendants are as a whole planet to a mountain.
They are vastly, vastly superior to any mortal, but that aren't the end-all say-all, or why are the Soulless even a problem? Yes, they can and do need help from their followers, because while there followers are performing those minor but necessary tasks, they are likely doing things that mortals can't help with.
If you want to hate on them, hate on them, no one is stopping you.
Glomdoring is approaching Magnagora for a treaty. Discuss.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited November 2015
It's not just a skewed perspective, it's a wrong perspective not grounded in any of the lore. Gods are not older siblings, they don't simply predate mortals, they literally created mortals from themselves. They, matter of factly, are superior beings that created the mortal races. Your stance makes no sense.
People are also not taking note of the fact that the divine are not the apex of creation either. As we saw with Xynthin, Estarra can strip them of divinity and wipe the world from existance should she so choose. The politics of the divine are, in her own description, inconsequential to her. It's all about context, Gods are vastly more powerful than mortals, to such an extent that mortals can't really fathom the gap between them. Which is precisely why some people worship them. Viravain spawned the Wyrd itself, she can cleave mortals from existance with a thought, how could someone like Celina not admire that? Yet in the same way, mortals are to the gods as the gods are to Estarra, the gap between them is so vast it can't really be described.
Part of the interest of the gods is that they are not, and do not claim to be, all powerful. Much like a person can crush an ant, the ant can still accomplish things the person cannot. Which is why you see things like fae who assist in fighting off the soulless, and mortals who strengthen the seals. Just because lesser beings benefit the gods, that does not mean the gods require them. It's all very Lord of the Rings, small hobbit versus godlike monster thing.
Gods aren't dependent upon mortals offering essence to them in either a lore sense or mechanical sense. Sometimes essence is used as a prop in RP events to speed up a god's healing or empower a ritual, but it is by no means necessary. In a mechanical sense, if every god got no more offerings, very little would change and gods would continue to exist just as they have been.
Godrealm rooms and features don't cost essence?
The short answer is no. Essence is certainly a part of that system but it is by no means required. Godrealms and bonus features aren't required for a god to exist and in almost all cases are just additional roleplay/conflict tools or fun opportunities for their order members.
Very interesting. And here we assume that everything a god does (favours, making godrealm rooms, etc) requires them to spend essence. That not having essence means they can't do those things (or at least not easily from an RP standpoint)
And you say godrealms aren't required for the god to exist, but wasn't the whole rp of the godrealm because mortals were offering too much and making the gods explode into copies of themselves because the god had no where to 'store' the massive amounts of essence?
Consider essence to be akin to credits-- sure, you can buy things, but you can also buy things with dingbats, aethergoop, form things with wonder crystals, etc. You are not going to get anything firmer out of anyone on this specifically, aside from the answer that they do not require essence to operate.
Godrealms being 'necessary' are only because, as you said it, mortals kept offering essence. If mortals didn't exist in the first place, the essence overload problem wouldn't have happened, and gods wouldn't have needed to make godrealms.
It's not just a skewed perspective, it's a wrong perspective not grounded in any of the lore. Gods are not older siblings, they don't simply predate mortals, they literally created mortals from themselves. They, matter of factly, are superior beings that created the mortal races. Your stance makes no sense.
This statement is false. In the way you worded it, you are stating that the Gods made the mortal races. No. The races were born from Gods, in a quite literal fashion. They are the 'shards' of them. This is where the term 'shards' come from. Im rather surprised you're attempting to actually debate Lore with me, when it is pretty common knowledge that I make Lusternia lore a hobby of mine. Secondly, all of the facts i've brought up, have indeed been part of lore, every point I made, had context in the game and storyline. No, I dont just pull facts out of my ass and say "look at this, see", and no, im not making this up as I go. Everything, is as follows with what we know of lusternian history.
So far, yours, and the other few common naysayers that seem to only disgaree with me for the sake of disagreeing, have brought up "You are wrong" "You dont know lore" "has leadership issues" "you have a skewed perspective" "Go play imperian for a few years (context being leave the game)" and so forth. You instantly, as always, turn towards personal attacks.
As to your mention of Viravain cleaving people from reality, this is also false. Gods can 'zap' someone, but they cant destroy a mortal. Mortals are reborn. As for Demigods, Demigods cant die. Yes, you can shoot them down, but they'll reform their bodies. In this context, even they have surpassed mortals and become in line with divinity.
Glomdoring is approaching Magnagora for a treaty. Discuss.
As to the Glom attempting alliance with Mag thing. Frankly at this
point, I dont see what else can be done. Serenwilde is, as always,
inefficient at coming to decisions, and people dont want to hurt other
people's feelings whom disgaree, so rather than cause any drama, they
all decide to move on and act like nothing is happening, praying some
solution from heaven comes down to free them from the problem itself.
I
was asked what do I think about the alliance to form, and I frankly
said I see little point. What does Glomdoring have to offer? Most of its
fighters are already gone, and its activity is barely noticeable. The most it could do is simply fix the mess in alliances, but will it? How long until it just happens again and again, simply from indifference of players to from orgs to orgs or some subtle politic-ing behind the scenes.
You're directly contravening the Administrator and creator of the game.
You also wrote a play that explicitly stated, at the end, that there were more Seals out there waiting to be discovered.
PS: No, in-game Gods have the ability to directly annihilate mortals. For OOC reasons they do not do so (it is a game), but it has been referenced repeatedly both IC and OOC that it exists. The IC reason for it not being used is essentially along the lines of MAD. "If you destroy the people in my org, I will wipe out all of yours" and "I am providing a missile defense system for my little minions," etc.
Why should you just follow 'Big Brother Zvoltz (see I spelled it right that time)' or 'Big Sister Drocilla' around?
Because they uphold aspects and teachings that you, or your character, find appealing and wish to emulate. You want growth for your character and more in-depth RP than you can provide solely (because administrators can create canon RP. It is VERY rare that something a mortal says or does can and will become the say-so for Lusternia), and to get a sense of fellowship.
Sure things are south right now between me and Dro-Dro, but it's one of the most incredible things I've gotten to role-play in my entire time during Lusternia. Why, I hear you ask? She put out the groundwork for a punishment and allowed me room to do what I wanted. If I wanted to just shrug it off, I could have just flipped my finger at her, gotten the zap, and walked off free to write in my journal to people through emotes until I could talk again.
However, since she is a goddess, and not just any goddess, a super-powerful one extra-linked to creativity, I chose to take her punishment to an extra level, and she happily acquiesced. And since she sees my willingness to work with it, she's able to further 'improve' my punishment to whatever standards we both see fit. Because of this, instead of just having a sore throat, I've been stripped of what amounts to my free will because of what has happened between us and been reduced to a walking meat bag who follows instructions. I've three different growth paths for the character to follow based on how the events end, whether Dro gives back the Voice (damaged), whether she loses her Voice (in which case we have to get her a new one), or whether she is given a new Voice (surprise to come).
Try getting that with another player. Divine offer new paths for role-players and combatants to expand their horizons through god-modding, which is generally a taboo for players. They take responsibility for their actions and in most cases it turns out spectacularly. These are people who used to be players, they know what we want because it's what they wanted. They're more than willing to work with you, but you have to be willing to put in a little (or a lot of) effort first.
(spiel done, and only included because I wanted to show off what I think is one of the best aspects of having Divine about)
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
4
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Well, they did make the mortal shards. Splitting into shards was a conscious decision by the gods that did so, so at best, you're arguing semantics between "made" and "born from." The two don't have to be mutually exclusive, in this sense, because the decision to splinter in shards was their choice, and so they made mortal from themselves. Neither of which is a remotely "older sibling" related in concept, as you were trying to argue earlier. Even by your own description of the lore, siblings are not "born from" one another by the actual definition of siblings.
This is simply the truth of the lore, as written by the creator of the game, regardless of whatever hobbies you want to claim. I'm not disagreeing with you for the sake of disagreeing, I'm disagreeing because you are demonstratively wrong, and are continuing a line of reasoning that makes sense only in the context of your desire to undermine any sort of game related authority that is not you. You're even doing it now with this "This is my hobby, you can't possibly be arguing with me." If you want to complain about personal attacks, I don't care, but using Sidd's posts as a reason to ignore the information I've provided doesn't help your case.
God's can destroy a mortal. It is the fates that decide to bring a mortal back. A demigod can lose their demigodhood, and ultimately be destroyed. Demigods are not like gods in that you can stop being a demigod. There's no evidence of a god ceasing to be a god because they died and reverted to non god status. It has also been observed by the admin that, should a god theoretically choose to erase a mortal, they could. They can't because this is a game. I believe it was only a couple of pages ago where you were arguing that mechanics and administrative ethics did not dictate the lore of the game with Xenthos, so why are you now arguing that because a god can only zap players, the lore is that the gods cannot annihilate mortals? What in the lore supports that,?
Glomdoring is approaching Magnagora for a treaty. Discuss.
As to the Glom attempting alliance with Mag thing. Frankly at this
point, I dont see what else can be done. Serenwilde is, as always,
inefficient at coming to decisions, and people dont want to hurt other
people's feelings whom disgaree, so rather than cause any drama, they
all decide to move on and act like nothing is happening, praying some
solution from heaven comes down to free them from the problem itself.
I
was asked what do I think about the alliance to form, and I frankly
said I see little point. What does Glomdoring have to offer? Most of its
fighters are already gone, and its activity is barely noticeable. The most it could do is simply fix the mess in alliances, but will it? How long until it just happens again and again, simply from indifference of players to from orgs to orgs or some subtle politic-ing behind the scenes.
Actually, Glomdoring (and Gaudiguch, for that matter) do have a notable fighting force -- it's just that the current mess of alliances hinder conflict from happening. Domoths are near-impossible to do with a 4v2 (mainly because of domoth mechanics themselves; this has been discussed at length already). Flares and revolts are mostly random, and mostly free-for-all. The last major raid that happened was the Continuum one, and how long ago was that? How long ago was the last major raid before the one on Continuum? There's little to no point in being a consistent combatant in Lusternia -- mostly, you just pop in when there's conflict happening, and then fade back out to do your own thing.
So, lorewise there is actually at least one case of a group of mortals successfully defeating an Elder God - Fain getting trapped by the Kephera in the Undervault for several decades. Likewise, it's been stated that while the Elder Gods don't need essence (I have no idea where that notion came about), they DO need mortals. After all the Elders cannot recharge the Nine Seals, they are a mortal creation and require mortal essence to be sustained. There's a MAD situation between the different gods (If Fain tries to blow up Celest, Terentia will retaliate against Fain) but also one between mortals and the Divine - if the Elders ever pass a certain threshold of disruptivenesse, the Ascension will fail and Kethuru will break free dooming the world to be consumed.
But yeah, in general, a Elder vs Mortal fight would not look like a Supernal raid. It would look like the Cuban Missile Crisis. Wherein you play not the USA or the USSR, or even Castro, but Cuban Farmer #247
I'm interested in hearing/reading the ic reasoning on how a god is able to remove a mortal from the cycle through the Portal, IE annihilation.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I'm more curious why the gods never zap troublemakers during events. I mean, if you've got the goloth rampaging about, breaking time, how hard could it be to spare two seconds to zap and kill him? After all, mortals manage to kill him just fine. :-\"
Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.
Gods can't remove strings from the tapestry. Only Atropos can iirc.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I'm more curious why the gods never zap troublemakers during events. I mean, if you've got the goloth rampaging about, breaking time, how hard could it be to spare two seconds to zap and kill him? After all, mortals manage to kill him just fine. :-\"
The gods know their continued existence is only by the whims of Estaara. If they don't keep things entertaining for the Creatrix she will wipe this universe clean and make a new one (with blackjack and hookers).
For Mister Zvoltz, Pejat has been terminated by the Replicant Dynodeon.
mmm Not to pull out the Lore-card here, but Mortals did once attempt to attack a Soulless directly, Kethuru to be exact, in an attempt to free Meridian. There were legions of them that got wiped out (it's Kethuru after all). As to attacking Soulless in the game, there have in fact been events. One event was the first ascension crisis, wherein an embodiment of Illith was suckling at the Megalith. Players could attack segments of 'Illith' in each room. Additionally, there is the Lesser Soulless found in Aquagoria that can also be attacked. Yes, weakened, but still attacked.
I did recall one example of attacking an Elder, related to a quest in the once-Temple of Hajamin. You get to attack Morgfyre (or a representation of Him, anyway), and I find it to be a rather fun and interesting concept.
Also yes, the concept of Sparks and Divinity does show us that mortals can become much greater in capacity. Though mortals can (currently) no longer become Gods themselves, they can become close to it in the concept of a Demigod and Ascendant. It event states, upon becoming a demigod, that our sparks flare up and cannot be contained in our mortal frames any longer. It is not too far an idea if demigods could challenge gods.
*appears out of nowhere "
Technically, what was fought was not an embodiment of Illith, it was an amalgamation of the leftover critters which remained in Her creche. It was the snaky placenta to Illith's birth.
I guess my head canon is a lot different than other people's. I've always felt that being made via the Song of Creation, the Elders always had one purpose: to create. They couldn't "destroy", really, they couldn't remove things from the tapestry of life. That's why they feared the Soulless so much, and why the Fourth Circle especially feared the Soulless, because anything the Soulless ate was gone forever, aka annihilated. The equivalent of suicide. The elder gods can only create and mould things into their own image, after their own place in the Tapestry as set forth by Dynara.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
What the Soulless ate is not actually gone, though. It is subsumed into the whole; that is why they were fighting a losing battle (every time one of them died and got eaten, they got weaker while the Soulless got stronger). It is why the Traitors wanted to use the tools of the Soulless against them, to claw some of that back.
Note that that is different from the Tapestry, to me. Your own thread is gone (and could be cut as easily by one as the other). The difference was the accumulation and concentration of power in a smaller and smaller cluster of Soulless gods over time.
It might as well be gone. Ponder Krokano, and why he couldn't just grow his face back.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Now I have to wonder if our Estarra is the Estarra for other realities. When she destroyed the Xynthin timeline, did she kill another Estarra? Is Estarra a highlander?
@Estarra, are you cheating on us with other timelines?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Comments
Ah you see this is what I find to be an incorrect perspective of what Gods in lusternia are. Many seem to relate them to the idea of the concept of a 'God' from IRL or from other IRE realms, in which they were the avatars of realms of reality, or superior beings that created the mortal races. They are, in fact, simply much bigger brothers and sisters to the mortal races.
You stated Elder Gods should be powerful enough to command my service. Ask yourself this, why should you follow to begin with? Why do you feel you need to make a character that would follow the will of an entity that had next to nothing to do with his creation, his life, and his fate? Looked at from another perspective, the Elder gods could simply be seen as dominating entities that seek to get their way by willful command (lore-wise).
Additionally, it isnt only about 'bringing a god down' which I would find to be near impossible as is, it is about them actually being characters rather than admins.
Although im beginning to think we may have derailed this thread (though admittedly the original subject was just drama llama) quite a bit as is, should the discussion go on or shall we call it quits?
And you say godrealms aren't required for the god to exist, but wasn't the whole rp of the godrealm because mortals were offering too much and making the gods explode into copies of themselves because the god had no where to 'store' the massive amounts of essence?
So far, yours, and the other few common naysayers that seem to only disgaree with me for the sake of disagreeing, have brought up "You are wrong" "You dont know lore" "has leadership issues" "you have a skewed perspective" "Go play imperian for a few years (context being leave the game)" and so forth. You instantly, as always, turn towards personal attacks.
As to your mention of Viravain cleaving people from reality, this is also false. Gods can 'zap' someone, but they cant destroy a mortal. Mortals are reborn. As for Demigods, Demigods cant die. Yes, you can shoot them down, but they'll reform their bodies. In this context, even they have surpassed mortals and become in line with divinity.
As to the Glom attempting alliance with Mag thing. Frankly at this point, I dont see what else can be done. Serenwilde is, as always, inefficient at coming to decisions, and people dont want to hurt other people's feelings whom disgaree, so rather than cause any drama, they all decide to move on and act like nothing is happening, praying some solution from heaven comes down to free them from the problem itself.
I was asked what do I think about the alliance to form, and I frankly said I see little point. What does Glomdoring have to offer? Most of its fighters are already gone, and its activity is barely noticeable. The most it could do is simply fix the mess in alliances, but will it? How long until it just happens again and again, simply from indifference of players to from orgs to orgs or some subtle politic-ing behind the scenes.
You're directly contravening the Administrator and creator of the game.
You also wrote a play that explicitly stated, at the end, that there were more Seals out there waiting to be discovered.
PS: No, in-game Gods have the ability to directly annihilate mortals. For OOC reasons they do not do so (it is a game), but it has been referenced repeatedly both IC and OOC that it exists. The IC reason for it not being used is essentially along the lines of MAD. "If you destroy the people in my org, I will wipe out all of yours" and "I am providing a missile defense system for my little minions," etc.
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
But yeah, in general, a Elder vs Mortal fight would not look like a Supernal raid. It would look like the Cuban Missile Crisis. Wherein you play not the USA or the USSR, or even Castro, but Cuban Farmer #247
I mean, Estarra wiped out an entire reality (mortals, gods, and all). So we know for a fact it is not Atropos alone.
Technically, what was fought was not an embodiment of Illith, it was an amalgamation of the leftover critters which remained in Her creche. It was the snaky placenta to Illith's birth.
Illithoid4lyfe
*returns to his hideyhole*
Note that that is different from the Tapestry, to me. Your own thread is gone (and could be cut as easily by one as the other). The difference was the accumulation and concentration of power in a smaller and smaller cluster of Soulless gods over time.
@Estarra, are you cheating on us with other timelines?
Krokano could not grow his eye back because the essence was lost to him (but not gone entirely, it could now be used against him and his progeny).