Uh, in Lusternian lore, players fighting against a God would not be an "smob fight". It would be "instant annihilation". That right there is a no-fly concept. Gods are intended to be (and are) far beyond mortals in terms of power. They may not be all-powerful and all-knowing, but they are to you as a human is to a fly.
Technically no. No where in lore do we have mortals fighting Elder gods. We do have fighting Soulless, but Soulless were basically Elder God x 20 in strength. Technically, we as 'mortals' are able to become 'demigods' which is our flares entering a level of godhood. The most highest level we can currently reach is True Ascendant, which may as well be mini-gods in themselves.
In truth, the current mechanics of a God character are just the same old code from Achaea that was passed down. Same divinefire invulnerable concept, same zap-kill/zap-warn/zap-hurt mechanic, and so forth. If you are taking your facts of mortals being squished by divine from the mechanics in place, then that isnt lore, that is more admin doing their thing. You shouldnt be able to hit and fight with an admin, because that would just be unethical. If you insult an admin, you can get killed. So on and so forth.
Your logic is deniable, because I am denying it. The reason that you don't have examples of mortals fighting Elder Gods is because any mortal who did got written out of existence stat. Estarra has discussed this at length any number of times. I am taking my examples of lore from the creator and producer of the game (you appear to be making it up as you go).
Mortals also did not fight Soulless. Mortals died en masse. Only Gods were able to fight Soulless.
True Ascendants are also nothing at all like a mini-Divine, again in lore (both IC and talked about on the forums). More powerful than mortals, not really mortal any more themselves (their bodies auto-reform), but still insignificant compared to true Gods. It's been stated that a God could eradicate an Ascendant as easily as a mortal, as an example.
The mechanics are the same. That doesn't mean that the RP behind them is the same, and pretending that porting mechanics means our Divine are, lore-wise, weaker than they should be is silly. Mechanics != RP.
I'm going to point out that I am referring to "true" fighting, as in, attempting to seriously harm the God directly. There are examples of sparring (wherein it can be inferred that the Divine was intentionally limiting themselves, and even then they are unkillable-- it's definitely not a fair fight).
This is why Estarra has nixed any form of attacking Gods directly, because they are two completely different levels.
"'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in." -Synkarin's Lament.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited November 2015
It's not logic if you are just making things up to fit you narrative. This topic has actually been covered in the past, and gods being vastly superior in terms of power to mortals has been expanded on. It's not just an expression of mechanics. Races are literally tiny pieces of gods, and by that alone there's no explanation that somehow explains how a tiny piece of something can rival the power of a whole. It's just nonsensical to argue otherwise. To state that because you have no direct lore that shows a mortal fighting a god, this somehow supports your position is arguing a very obvious logical fallacy. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. What we do have is an abundance of context in which gods demonstrate the gap between mortals and gods. Mortals are able to strengthen seals and contain Kethuru. It has been observed by Estarra in the past that should Keth ever actually escape, it would be the end of mortal kind in absolute terms. We would not survive. The gods can and have survived the soulless to different degrees. A mortal cannot survive the void, a god can. etc etc etc.
I believe it was Eventru that explained that a mortal is to a demigod is like a pebble to a boulder, and a demigod to an ascendant is a boulder to a mountain, and ascendants are as close as a mortal can get (now) to godhood, but even then, an ascendant is to a god what a mountain is to an entire planet. Or some variation of that metaphor.
You're actually allowed to insult the admin to the extent that you are allowed to insult players. There are no special rules that protect administrators from the same criticisms levied against players on a daily basis. Getting zapped or punished is an expression of their power, not admin punishments for insulting the actual administration. Zaps and what not are RP tools, they are not administration enforcement weapons. Disfavors as administrative punishment aren't even handed out by the RP gods, they are given by the oneiroi/estarra/etc. Shrubbing, the most notable administrative punishment, is not a power available to average joe god. That is to say Viravain isn't going to shrub you for calling her fatter than the ebonglom Wyrdling. You're really failing to understand here that the god role and the administrator role, while filled by the same person, are not the same thing.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Also: I think your issue gods/admin is more an extension of your well known issue with any kind of authority. You've previously attempted to abolish envoys and any form of player leadership, and now the administration's god roles. It's getting kind of silly.
*pulls up US News and World Report best Grad Schools*
*writes down top 10 Psychology and Psychiatry schools*
*hands to Celina*
You show promise Frau Celina yes *leans back in chair light blazing off circular glasses*
I do take some issue at the oft-repeated "person to a fly" comparison, because it doesn't really describe most of the god-to-player-character interactions and relationships I've seen. It's more like the difference between a person and a smart pet animal than a person and an insect.
I understand, I just don't think it's an accurate portrayal. There is nothing a fly can do to help or hurt me (even en masse), nor is there any shared context by which to share problems and their solutions. In other words, if we were flies to the god's people there would be no reason for us to assist them in their plots or be involved in the world - player agency is totally nullified. Clearly that isn't the case, mortals are frequently called upon to assist the gods in any number of tasks. The addition of mortals often causes complications for the gods in question, it stands to reason that if they could accomplish their goals perfectly fine with or without us (if mortals were fly-level), they would.
Person to small dog seems like a better analogy to me: One chihuahua isn't dangerous, and the whole of chihuahua-dom pales in comparison to the whole of humanity, or even a sufficiently prepared group of people. However, if you were to step into an alleyway right into a pack of chihuahuas waiting for you, there is a sense of danger. Sure, you could (if you were so inclined - evil basically) crush a bunch of the critters and you aren't in mortal danger, but the danger still exists. The dogs are dangerous because they unexpected and unpredictable - if you expect them it's simple to nullify the danger they represent, but they're not totally removed from the field of danger.
There are indeed things that flies can do to help (or hurt) you en masse. They're an important part of the world's ecosystem and things don't work right without them.
FYI, I was curious enough that I talked to some Imperian admin and apparently, though they have RP'ed the death of gods, the admin play the role of entities which, according to the Imperian admin, are all but gods except in name. They have interesting rp tied to orders, but isn't something that would really work for Lusternia.
mmm Not to pull out the Lore-card here, but Mortals did once attempt to attack a Soulless directly, Kethuru to be exact, in an attempt to free Meridian. There were legions of them that got wiped out (it's Kethuru after all). As to attacking Soulless in the game, there have in fact been events. One event was the first ascension crisis, wherein an embodiment of Illith was suckling at the Megalith. Players could attack segments of 'Illith' in each room. Additionally, there is the Lesser Soulless found in Aquagoria that can also be attacked. Yes, weakened, but still attacked.
I did recall one example of attacking an Elder, related to a quest in the once-Temple of Hajamin. You get to attack Morgfyre (or a representation of Him, anyway), and I find it to be a rather fun and interesting concept.
Also yes, the concept of Sparks and Divinity does show us that mortals can become much greater in capacity. Though mortals can (currently) no longer become Gods themselves, they can become close to it in the concept of a Demigod and Ascendant. It event states, upon becoming a demigod, that our sparks flare up and cannot be contained in our mortal frames any longer. It is not too far an idea if demigods could challenge gods.
Personally, I kinda find all the analogies weird and flawed.
Sure a god could wipe a mortal out of reality, apparently, but gods also seem dependent on essence and unable to acquire it in sufficient quantities in the modern age to power themselves.
Personally, I kinda find all the analogies weird and flawed.
Sure a god could wipe a mortal out of reality, apparently, but gods also seem dependent on essence and unable to acquire it in sufficient quantities in the modern age to power themselves.
Obviously vampires that need to be fed.
It's rather similar to the concept in Clash of Titans, where the gods 'needed prayers' or began to lose power.
Sometimes, the amount of pettiness in this game gets to me. It is an unending cycle of they did something petty, so we will do it back, and then it goes round and round until everyone is being idiotic and childish.
I wonder how the elders operated before shards were around to offer to them. ...
Pretty sure they were able to freely draw power from the Immanidivinus, or that the world was simply so saturated in power that they were able to draw on it naturally. That was before millenia of the Soulless feeding on everything freely until the end of the Vernal Wars.
Gods aren't dependent upon mortals offering essence to them in either a lore sense or mechanical sense. Sometimes essence is used as a prop in RP events to speed up a god's healing or empower a ritual, but it is by no means necessary. In a mechanical sense, if every god got no more offerings, very little would change and gods would continue to exist just as they have been.
3
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Gods don't actually need mortal offered essence to " power themselves." I don't even know where that idea comes from. Gods are not dependent on offerings to exist in any way.
Gods aren't dependent upon mortals offering essence to them in either a lore sense or mechanical sense. Sometimes essence is used as a prop in RP events to speed up a god's healing or empower a ritual, but it is by no means necessary. In a mechanical sense, if every god got no more offerings, very little would change and gods would continue to exist just as they have been.
Gods aren't dependent upon mortals offering essence to them in either a lore sense or mechanical sense. Sometimes essence is used as a prop in RP events to speed up a god's healing or empower a ritual, but it is by no means necessary. In a mechanical sense, if every god got no more offerings, very little would change and gods would continue to exist just as they have been.
Godrealm rooms and features don't cost essence?
The short answer is no. Essence is certainly a part of that system but it is by no means required. Godrealms and bonus features aren't required for a god to exist and in almost all cases are just additional roleplay/conflict tools or fun opportunities for their order members.
Personally, I think the idea of making Elder Gods an existence that can be challenged and pulled down by mortals a ridiculously boring one. Elder Divine should be entities of such absolute strength and power that standing against them becomes a powerful symbol and statement of loyalty, idealism and defiance, all the more so when you do it for your own Divine.
If they become just your average Cthoglogg, then why would I bother prostrating myself before any one of them? Oh, an Elder returns from the Void? Right. Okay. Who cares? Lisaera and Viravain going at it in the skies? Again? For the how manyth time this week? Well, okay, whatever, just do it when I'm not asleep, or I'll gather a bunch of irritated people to go kick their asses.
It would really suck a lot if Estarra's (or rather, Dynara's) greatest creations turned out to be just a bunch of old, outdated hippies that liked thunder bolts or silver beams of light.
The absoluteness of an Elder Divine is precisely that which drives and motivates mortals to reach for Ascendancy - a ridiculously miniscule existence compared to the Elder Divine, but still with a taste of the power that can never be achieved. To reduce the model upon which Ascendancy (or Demi-godhood) imitates that would be to cheapen the experience. If I wanted to play a character that could challenge the heavens, I'll connect to godwars2.org on port 3000 instead. (Pretty good game, by the way) I'd like to keep my Lusternian Divine to be actually powerful enough to command my service, please, thanks.
Gods aren't dependent upon mortals offering essence to them in either a lore sense or mechanical sense. Sometimes essence is used as a prop in RP events to speed up a god's healing or empower a ritual, but it is by no means necessary. In a mechanical sense, if every god got no more offerings, very little would change and gods would continue to exist just as they have been.
Godrealm rooms and features don't cost essence?
The short answer is no. Essence is certainly a part of that system but it is by no means required. Godrealms and bonus features aren't required for a god to exist and in almost all cases are just additional roleplay/conflict tools or fun opportunities for their order members.
So its used as a type of currency to keep things fair and competitive, but not actually required? Or its not used at all, but its treated as if its needed IG?
I always imagined essence to be a kind of honey to lure and attract the attention of your beloved divine ones to the basin and nothing more than that. I guess there's more to it.
Comments
Technically no. No where in lore do we have mortals fighting Elder gods. We do have fighting Soulless, but Soulless were basically Elder God x 20 in strength. Technically, we as 'mortals' are able to become 'demigods' which is our flares entering a level of godhood. The most highest level we can currently reach is True Ascendant, which may as well be mini-gods in themselves.
In truth, the current mechanics of a God character are just the same old code from Achaea that was passed down. Same divinefire invulnerable concept, same zap-kill/zap-warn/zap-hurt mechanic, and so forth. If you are taking your facts of mortals being squished by divine from the mechanics in place, then that isnt lore, that is more admin doing their thing. You shouldnt be able to hit and fight with an admin, because that would just be unethical. If you insult an admin, you can get killed. So on and so forth.
My logic is undeniable
Mortals also did not fight Soulless. Mortals died en masse. Only Gods were able to fight Soulless.
True Ascendants are also nothing at all like a mini-Divine, again in lore (both IC and talked about on the forums). More powerful than mortals, not really mortal any more themselves (their bodies auto-reform), but still insignificant compared to true Gods. It's been stated that a God could eradicate an Ascendant as easily as a mortal, as an example.
The mechanics are the same. That doesn't mean that the RP behind them is the same, and pretending that porting mechanics means our Divine are, lore-wise, weaker than they should be is silly. Mechanics != RP.
This is why Estarra has nixed any form of attacking Gods directly, because they are two completely different levels.
I do take some issue at the oft-repeated "person to a fly" comparison, because it doesn't really describe most of the god-to-player-character interactions and relationships I've seen. It's more like the difference between a person and a smart pet animal than a person and an insect.
Person to small dog seems like a better analogy to me: One chihuahua isn't dangerous, and the whole of chihuahua-dom pales in comparison to the whole of humanity, or even a sufficiently prepared group of people. However, if you were to step into an alleyway right into a pack of chihuahuas waiting for you, there is a sense of danger. Sure, you could (if you were so inclined - evil basically) crush a bunch of the critters and you aren't in mortal danger, but the danger still exists. The dogs are dangerous because they unexpected and unpredictable - if you expect them it's simple to nullify the danger they represent, but they're not totally removed from the field of danger.
Also, some flies carry diseases. Stupid flies.
I did recall one example of attacking an Elder, related to a quest in the once-Temple of Hajamin. You get to attack Morgfyre (or a representation of Him, anyway), and I find it to be a rather fun and interesting concept.
Also yes, the concept of Sparks and Divinity does show us that mortals can become much greater in capacity. Though mortals can (currently) no longer become Gods themselves, they can become close to it in the concept of a Demigod and Ascendant. It event states, upon becoming a demigod, that our sparks flare up and cannot be contained in our mortal frames any longer. It is not too far an idea if demigods could challenge gods.
Sure a god could wipe a mortal out of reality, apparently, but gods also seem dependent on essence and unable to acquire it in sufficient quantities in the modern age to power themselves.
Obviously vampires that need to be fed.
It's rather similar to the concept in Clash of Titans, where the gods 'needed prayers' or began to lose power.
Gah. We need a Taran Zhu to yell at people.
Just turn around and walk away. Walk. Away.
There's also deaths, Elostian poked me once because I kept dying and it was costing him essence.